Is classical music merely self-aggrandizing?

[karlhenning]

But I have included the Ph.D. in my signature in the past. (I don't disown it, but I wanted to make room in the signature for a spiffy quotation.)

[mahlertitan]

So are we just saying we listen to classical music because we enjoy it more than other types of music? If so, what is it you enjoy about it?

well, when i hear certain sounds, in this case, classical music, more specific, Mahler, Bruckner, Wagner, Beethoven, etc.... my brain release certain chemicals that makes me very happy, now, i am not a chemistry major, nor do i know too much about human biology, but  i believe that's what going on here. So, if you really want to be reductionist,  and reduce everything in this complex universe into a single, flawed answer -i'll have to say: it's chemistry, it's our biological make up that makes us like a certain type of music.

[Larry Rinkel]

We're all idiots really, we humans. We think we're better than what we are.

Yes, but consider the alternative. We could have been born hippopotamuses, or Colorado potato beetles. Personally I'll take Bach.

[MishaK]

Ponder this: if classical music is indeed self-aggrandizing and classical audiences are dwindling, as critics constantly allege, does that indicate that over recent decades the general population has become more interested in substance and has lost interest in self-aggrandizement?

[karlhenning]

Madonna, Julia Roberts, Paris Hilton: Substance, or Self-Aggrandizement?

Live with Larry King.

[Michel]

Not to flog this dying horse any more than necessary, but a quick Google search reveals that Karl has a degree beyond the M.A. level (and that he got his B.Mus. at a conference rival of my college). So, then, Karl isn't broadcasting anything other than his location - but you sure are.

He actually changed it, it used to say PHD, I didn't look at it close enough. I remember the good old fights that Herman used to have with that broadcast. That was only an example anyway, of which there are many more.

[karlhenning]

He actually changed it, it used to say PHD, I didn't look at it close enough. I remember the good old fights that Herman used to have with that broadcast.

Yes, gone apparently are the days when I am alleged to have mega-ego to burn . . . .

[Michel]

Ponder this: if classical music is indeed self-aggrandizing and classical audiences are dwindling, as critics constantly allege, does that indicate that over recent decades the general population has become more interested in substance and has lost interest in self-aggrandizement?

Yes, because I think society in general is much more outward looking now so self-aggrandizement (strictly to yourself) is less important. What counts more, evidently, is what car you have and profession you pursue. Such things seem to be much more important to most people, it seems, than what you think, or how well you put up an argument or your intellectual ability. This is why its a commonly asked question quite soon after you meet someone - what do you do?

In France, the opposite is true, it would be considered a rude question. And material things provide no status; your opinions, eloquence  and conversational ability are more important. Thus conversations revolve not around jobs, etc, but about "what is your view on the current political situation, etc". Its fascinating.

[Michel]

Yes, gone apparently are the days when I am alleged to have mega-ego to burn . . . .

Hehe

HUGS AND KISSES

[orbital]

In France, the opposite is true, it would be considered a rude question. And material things provide no status; your opinions, eloquence  and conversational ability are more important. Thus conversations revolve not around jobs, etc, but about "what is your view on the current political situation, etc". Its fascinating.

And this is not another manifestation of the same type of self-pompousness (just to use a different word this time  ) ? Will they not feel superior to the other people near them when they explaion the current political situation much more clearly?

Isolating classical music [or the so called other high arts] from the general tendency that the people have to exhibit who they are mistreats the questions you ask IMO.

[Don]

I agree, but I think this may be because we are all self-aggrandizers. Why do we need this solace, encouragement, teaching, and others do not? You lot are making out it is practically a human need, in the sense that it is a pleasure so great you cannot live without it. Thats madness, and symptomatic of something peculiar that is not simple enjoyment. After all, the table tennis fanatic or the car enthusiast would not proclaim they got some sort of deep emotional satisfaction from it, they simply like it a lot. We always seem to claim there is something more profound in it (classical music). Look at Don's response... "wonderfully uplifting spiritual content' - what the hell does that mean! I don't think anyone would describe table tennis in that way - or the pleasure they get from eating a steak. Classical music is clearly not just hedonism, it is something else, relating to the intellect, and it is from here I think the self-aggrandizing mechanism is derived, and it is because of this I will not accept the argument it is simply enjoyable, or that it is more consistent than other forms of music, since that doesn't answer the question why you listen to anything at all in the first place.

If you really don't know what "wonderfully uplifting spiritual content" means, you have my sympathies.    

[Michel]

And this is not another manifestation of the same type of self-pompousness (just to use a different word this time  ) ? Will they not feel superior to the other people near them when they explaion the current political situation much more clearly?

Isolating classical music [or the so called other high arts] from the general tendency that the people have to exhibit who they are mistreats the questions you ask IMO.

I Agree, which is why I think we should all admit it, rather than trying to mask it!

[Don]

I Agree, which is why I think we should all admit it, rather than trying to mask it!

You keep contending that other folks have the same feelings and thoughts as you do.  Why don't you cut it out and admit that YOU have a problem you're dealing with. 

[karlhenning]

After all, the table tennis fanatic or the car enthusiast would not proclaim they got some sort of deep emotional satisfaction from it, they simply like it a lot. We always seem to claim there is something more profound in it (classical music).

Possibly because the nature of "participating" in music, particularly in classical music, is essentially different to the nature of participating in table tennis, or of being enthusiastic about cars.

[karlhenning]

That is, to dismiss the notion of deep emotional satisfaction out of a game of table tennis, does not establish the lack of any such satisfaction related to music.

[MishaK]

Isolating classical music [or the so called other high arts] from the general tendency that the people have to exhibit who they are mistreats the questions you ask IMO.

And, indeed, posing the question the way Michel does makes it seem that certain character flaws of certain listeners are actually a problem inherent in classical music itself.

[Michel]

Possibly because the nature of "participating" in music, particularly in classical music, is essentially different to the nature of participating in table tennis, or of being enthusiastic about cars.

Very Good point, Karl. However, it still requires explanation to say why we participate in the first place!

[Don]

That is, to dismiss the notion of deep emotional satisfaction out of a game of table tennis, does not establish the lack of any such satisfaction related to music.

On the other hand, it is not beyond reason to get deep emotional satisfaction from athletic endeavors or modes of transportation.

[Don]

Very Good point, Karl. However, it still requires explanation to say why we participate in the first place!

No, nothing further is required.  Your interest in verbal masturbation seems to have no limits.

[orbital]

I Agree, which is why I think we should all admit it, rather than trying to mask it!

perhaps, but this would mean asking people not to take things [themselves foremost] seriously, in a way. I don't know if this would work