An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)

[Karl Henning]

Personally, and to be blunt, I fail to see why you should demand that of me.  Are you a judge?  Do I reside in your jurisdiction?  Are only those musical quarrels which are actual civil or criminal infractions valid questions for discussion?

[mc ukrneal]

Personally, and to be blunt, I fail to see why you should demand that of me.  Are you a judge?  Do I reside in your jurisdiction?  Are only those musical quarrels which are actual civil or criminal infractions valid questions for discussion?

Karl - you started the thread with plagiarism. If that is not the way you want to go - no problem. I'd be happy to discuss how Williams clearly sounds like many other composers in some places. There is no shame in this and I find that interesting. But I like to talk to specifics, as generalities have led us in circles in the past on this subject.

[Karl Henning]

I think John Williams and pretty much every film composer are thieves in some way or another. They're not being paid to express their deepest, darkest feelings, they're being paid to express what is on the film screen.

And why is that thievery, exactly?

[Leo K.]

I personally have no resistance to Williams' music sounding like various romantic composers. The composers he   sounds like have all passed on, and no monetary or legacy of said romantic composers are lost as a result.

I myself, as an appropriation and conceptual artist, have taken the first three movements of Beethoven's 5th for my own first symphony! So, this kind of absurdism is my bread and butter but not that of John Williams, who I have always loved since I was a kid.

[Mirror Image]

And why is that thievery, exactly?

I understand classical composers have borrowed from each other from time to time, but what Williams does is makes his brand of mediocrity sound like x composer and then all of sudden you have bankable idea. He's not doing it for artistic reasons, but because he has no good ideas of his own.

[Karl Henning]

I view all film music as music not to be taken seriously even Shostakovich's. That's my opinion of it. I take it with a grain of salt. Shostakovich wrote film music because he had NO choice!!!

You're making the matter too simple, John, though of course you are entitled to dislike whatever music you choose, for whatever reasons please you.

(BTW, I take it that you don't at all like Prokofiev's Aleksandr Nevsky, then? As film music, as you say, it is not to be taken seriously . . . .)

Late enough in Shostakovich's career that I do not think coercion could have played any role, the scores for the Kozintsev Shakespeare films are masterly, by any measure.

And in all events, my point is:  both Prokofiev & Shostakovich are outstanding examples of composers who produce work of exceptional artistic integrity, even in the face of limited choice.  The limitation of choice is not, therefore, necessarily any impediment to the creation of world-class artwork

[Karl Henning]

I understand classical composers have borrowed from each other from time to time, but what Williams does is makes his brand of mediocrity sound like x composer and then all of sudden you have bankable idea. He's not doing it for artistic reasons, but because he has no good ideas of his own.

Well, I am apt to agree with you there, John. But you seemed to be suggesting that the mere act of writing a film score is thievery. I am relieved to find that I mistook you there.

[Karl Henning]

I personally have no resistance to Williams' music sounding like various romantic composers. The composers he sounds like have all passed on, and no monetary or legacy of said romantic composers are lost as a result.

Just in case you are at all in earnest . . . that is not the quarrel here; the quarrel is film cues which are bald recycling of numbers from the literature.  The redress would not be, paying those composers' estates damages, but doing his own work.

; )

[Mirror Image]

Well, I am apt to agree with you there, John. But you seemed to be suggesting that the mere act of writing a film score is thievery. I am relieved to find that I mistook you there.

No, there are good, original film scores like Morricone's The Mission for example which I recall being very personal, heartfelt music, but then there's Williams brand of kitsch which doesn't sound original or emotional at all and reveals very little about the man himself.

[Karl Henning]

Oh, I have to contest that for two reasons.

1. My disappointment with the specific rip-offs of Holst & Stravinsky, e.g., aside — the man is capable of writing well, and originally, albeit in perhaps a small way.  The main title music for Star Wars was a thrilling, and original, overture to one of the landmark cinematic experiences in our lifetime.  The marches for Raiders of the Lost Ark and for 1941 (big thanks to Sarge for putting this movie on my radar) are good, solid work; the man inarguably earned his money with the product, there.

2. I don't think it a fair dismissal of music for film, that it doesn't sound emotional (it needn't in all cases), nor that it reveals little about the composer (what does that mean, anyway?)

[Leon]

I think John Williams is capable of writing moving and inspired music and on that count, for me, his best score was for Shindler's List, which I also consider Spielberg's best film.

But he (not unlike many others) also writes trite and highly derivative music generally for action sequences.  But, I am not a fan of action movies, in general, mainly for all the reasons, including the music, that make them so popular.

[mc ukrneal]

... but then there's Williams brand of kitsch which doesn't sound original or emotional at all and reveals very little about the man himself.

I am interested in the bolded part. Do you think that music necessarily reveals something about the composer? I am not trying to suggest it does not, but rather does not always do so. Does every Mozart or Haydn or Beethoven symphony reveal something about the composer? I'm not so sure. But I admit, it is not a theme I have really considered much.

[Elnimio]

John Williams' non-film music is quite original, IMO

[Leon]

I think John Williams reveals quite a bit about himself to the extent he liberally borrows from classical composers as he puts together the music he supplies for the films he works on.

[Karl Henning]

John Williams' non-film music is quite original, IMO

What I've heard has struck me as meh, which is to say, if anyone other than a fellow who had already made a huge name for himself in scoring films had written it, it would never see the light of day.

[71 dB]

A.I. and Minority Report are among my favorite scores by John Williams. A.I. particularly is amazing movie music (amazing movie too). Just listen to Track 8 "Stored Memories and Monica's Theme". Amazing! 

Music similar to these scores would have made GREAT Pluto to "complete" Holst's The Planets.

[Leon]

A.I. and Minority Report are among my favorite scores by John Williams. A.I. particularly is amazing movie music (amazing movie too). Just listen to Track 8 "Stored Memories and Monica's Theme". Amazing! 

Music similar to these scores would have made GREAT Pluto to "complete" Holst's The Planets.

The track you suggest from A.I. is okay, but for that kind of contemplative vocal effect I much prefer Clannad's theme from Harry's Game - towards the end when it goes childlike and angelic, I lost interest.

The Minority Report I don't know.

[Cato]

What I've heard has struck me as meh, which is to say, if anyone other than a fellow who had already made a huge name for himself in scoring films had written it, it would never see the light of day.

That was my reaction as well to the (admittedly few) things of his I have heard, which were not connected to a movie.

No, there are good, original film scores like Morricone's The Mission for example which I recall being very personal, heartfelt music, but then there's Williams brand of kitsch which doesn't sound original or emotional at all and reveals very little about the man himself.

I suspect you mean that certain composers symbolize their personalities somehow in their music?  Beethoven's stormy dissatisfaction and impatience as well as his nobility "heard" in e.g. the Seventh Symphony?

Composers can also mask their personalities through their music, or neither.  Having just listened to Ockeghem's Missa Prolationum and some of the Marian Motets, I wonder if he thought that his personality somehow could come through the music? 

What kind of personality might one deduce from the music of Gesualdo if one could be kept in the dark about his biography?

So I am not sure that composers must absolutely reveal a personality type through the music they compose.  And I am not sure that movie music is the appropriate genre to do so, if they wished.

If John Williams has a "personal sound" at all, maybe it is to be found here:

The opening "overture" to Catch Me If You Can marvelously fits the cartoon credits hinting at the plot of the movie.

[Cato]

We were watching The Lion King today and I wondered at times: is the score by Hans Zimmer or is it a collaboration by Schumann, Prokofiev, and a few others?   

A whiff of Mozart's Requiem during Moufasa's death via stampede, and then a whiff of Prokofiev during the chase scene afterward.

Plagiarism, homage, or just a wink-wink-nudge-nudge to the musically knowledgeable in the audience?

[eyeresist]

I think John Williams reveals quite a bit about himself to the extent he liberally borrows from classical composers as he puts together the music he supplies for the films he works on.

My understanding is that this is the way most film composers work, simply because of time demands: they are shown the completed film and given only a few weeks to write (and record!) an hour or more of music. The most efficient way of working here is to say "Well, I'll have 20 yards of Copland here, a burst of Wagner, then a stretch of Mars-like ostinato", and flavour it with individuating melodic elements. They usually work with a couple of orchestrators in order to get the work into performable shape. Occasionally they get a longer period to work (Polidouris's Starship Troopers score). Very occasionally they are touched by genius (Herrmann's Hitchcock scores). Of course working in this way has a deleterious effect on the creative muscles.

This Wikipedia page give a useful summary of what's involved.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_score

I'll credit Williams for having a recognisable "Williams sound" (which he doesn't always use).

Personally, and to be blunt, I fail to see why you should demand that of me.  Are you a judge?  Do I reside in your jurisdiction?  Are only those musical quarrels which are actual civil or criminal infractions valid questions for discussion?

C) I can demo the plagiarism, but again [1] we must agree upon terms, so what do you encompass within your "&c." please? [2] and — do you read music notation?

We are not disputing the stylistic debt Williams owes to Holst and others. However, if you want to wave the "p" word around, you should be prepared to back it up with proof, the burden of which lies with you. "It's obvious" and "everybody knows" isn't enough.