Language Learners

[Corey]

First of all, good to see ya again!

If you are really serious about learning the language, almost all of your work will be spent reading (online + Rikaichan/Rikaikun is the best method I know of), and then from there, logically, listening, speaking, and writing (I added that last part because I know someone will say something about it). Textbooks are like a drop of water in the ocean, though they are good for getting started.

Recently, I decided that I would just go ahead and read Japanese whenever I felt like it, rather than take a long hiatus. A few weeks ago, I ended up reading quite a bit off of the NHK website (a place I HIGHLY recommend, since they have news videos along with the text) and noticed a very nice improvement in vocabulary, comprehension, etc. And of course, I'll need a much wider variety of sources, but you can't beat a source that gives you daily updated news with over 40 new video article a day. 

Thanks for the advice. I'll keep Rikaichan/kun in mind, but as yet I still don't have a computer of my own. I think this semester I'll look into Japanese-language meetup groups in town. Plus, there are probably a lot of helpful programs through the Japanese Consulate here.

One thing I didn't know that my Japanese teacher (who is a native speaker himself, but is fairly old and hasn't lived there for years) didn't mention at all: how the "g" consonant is sometimes pronounced like an "n". What a difference there is between a textbook and actual spoken language! LiveMocha is pretty good for hearing native speakers, so hopefully that'll help with my pronunciation (which isn't horrible, but it gets tough when the sentences are more complex) and my pace (I'm still very slow).

[ibanezmonster]

One thing I didn't know that my Japanese teacher (who is a native speaker himself, but is fairly old and hasn't lived there for years) didn't mention at all: how the "g" consonant is sometimes pronounced like an "n".

That's something I overlooked for quite a while. Especially in the particle "ga," it's basically pronounced like a nasal "n"- "nga." Yep, if we ever get to be pros at speaking Japanese, we'll get to reserve the right to complain about foreigners who can't speak comprehensible English. 

[Corey]

Finally finished my Esperanto textbook. I now have a pretty good grasp of the grammar, can read most sentences and can express myself in sentence form. Since very few people speak Esp, I'm focusing on improving it through reading texts, so I have an ancient Esperanto reader (Fundamenta Krestomatio) to keep it up.

My Japanese is going pretty well. I'm up to around 250 Kanji which I can read on sight without struggling to remember the readings. I've got a progressive reader that starts from texts in hiragana and goes all the way to technical papers, excerpts from Mishima and classical Japanese poetry. Now I'm just trying to work out all the various verbal and adjectival conjugations. Next semester I'll be taking the 104-level course at my school if I can pass the placement exam that allows me to skip 103.

After this semester ends I plan on starting German. Pretty excited as it was originally my first choice before I got pulled into Japanese and fell in love with it.

[ibanezmonster]

There's one thing I've been doing over the last week or two which has seemed to help.
I'm at the point where the only thing really holding me back in Japanese is vocabulary... it's probably 90% of the learning, anyways.

I'm using my old dictionary which I wasn't using any more as a vocabulary book:


The thing is, I'm not sure if there is an Japanese-English dictionary that is near comprehensive other than something like jisho.org- my dictionary only had the words maybe half of the time when I used to use it as a dictionary.

My method:
-start at a certain section; maybe "p", "shi", "z", "ka", etc. Try to look over it enough so that you might get a few stuck in your head later.
-move on to another section the next day- whatever you feel like at the moment.
-make sure to go back to previous sections and review sections you went through maybe 2-3 days ago.
-(also, of course, make sure to draw as many connections/disambiguations, etc. as possible)

Considering I feel like I'm learning vocabulary at a much faster rate than reading, for example, news articles, I feel it's working, and in the long run, vocabulary should be less of a problem.

If you ever decide to experiment with my method, Corey, let me know. 

[Corey]

I have Kodansha's Furigana dictionary, which is pretty great as I don't like romaji (and if you're seriously studying Japanese you've probably learned the kana at the very beginning). I'm not sure how comprehensive it is, but I'm sure the internet could fill in any gaps. IMO if you've exhausted an entire dictionary you're probably pretty well off, and actual conversation will be the next step.

I have thought about doing something similar, just learning a few new words each day, going alphabetically, and making flash cards for them. FCs have been the best thing for learning kanji for me, so I think it'd work well for other things too.

My 先生 asked if I was going to take the JLPT coming up. I thought about it, but I don't really see the point unless you know you're at Level 1 — in which case you don't need a test to inform you of your proficiency, and all you'd have to do to show your skill is to speak Japanese. I am probably at level 4 or 5 at the moment.

[ibanezmonster]

My 先生 asked if I was going to take the JLPT coming up. I thought about it, but I don't really see the point unless you know you're at Level 1 — in which case you don't need a test to inform you of your proficiency, and all you'd have to do to show your skill is to speak Japanese. I am probably at level 4 or 5 at the moment.

Flash cards are great if you like them. Just as effective (I just don't use them because I never liked them).

That's a great point about JLPT. I would probably take it first to reach Level 2, since Level 1, if I remember correctly, is native level of decent intelligence, and Level 2 is fluent for a foreigner (am I wrong about this?).

[Corey]

Flash cards are great if you like them. Just as effective (I just don't use them because I never liked them).

That's a great point about JLPT. I would probably take it first to reach Level 2, since Level 1, if I remember correctly, is native level of decent intelligence, and Level 2 is fluent for a foreigner (am I wrong about this?).

I think that's about right. You're at a comm. college at the moment, right? Are you going to transfer to a university?

[ibanezmonster]

I think that's about right. You're at a comm. college at the moment, right? Are you going to transfer to a university?

Yep to both. UCF in spring '14. The entire course is online, but I'm just hoping that the additional mandatory classes are, too.

[Corey]

Yep to both. UCF in spring '14. The entire course is online, but I'm just hoping that the additional mandatory classes are, too.

Cool, I know some people who graduated from there. Have you considered maybe taking some Japanese courses? You could probably test in at a level higher than the introductory course.

[ibanezmonster]

Cool, I know some people who graduated from there. Have you considered maybe taking some Japanese courses? You could probably test in at a level higher than the introductory course.

Only if they are part of an mandatory elective and online; I'm trying to avoid driving there (1 1/2 hours away) or moving there (extra ~$150 a month to live with my friend in his one bedroom condo- although he's nice and would sleep in his living room lol).

[Corey]

You'll have to move out sometime!

[ibanezmonster]

You'll have to move out sometime!

When I get a job that pays enough to survive on, I will (meaning after I graduate).
Even with my friend's special rent price ($250/month), staying with him will probably mean losing $50/month (unless they pay better in Orlando, and not including surprise car repairs, etc.). Let's just say I need to eat much more than most people. 

[ibanezmonster]

Just something I thought I'd add here:

the studying the dictionary thing is going well. But it's more of a long-term thing. You won't see the results immediately, but compared to the rate I was learning by reading, there's no comparison. The biggest obstacle to learning a language has to be the thousands of words, and this is hardly ever addressed in any form for some reason. This method is proving very useful.

[ibanezmonster]

Had to take a few months off from learning earlier this year, but back at the dictionary vocabulary strategy, and it really is the quickest way to pick up new words. Of course, the dictionary itself probably doesn't even have half of the vocabulary I'll need, since many of the words I don't know aren't in it.

I wonder sometimes how often Japanese have problems communicating.

きゅうしょく　kyuushoku means:
休職  leave of absence from a job
求職  searching for a job
給食  school lunch
旧職  former job
九食  9 meals
九色  9 colors

かがく　kagaku means:
科学  science
化学  chemistry


I understand that it's all about context, but these aren't even the worst examples...

[listener]

the Japan Times has had a series of interesting columns
at http://www.japantimes.co.jp/life/language/

[ibanezmonster]

the Japan Times has had a series of interesting columns
at http://www.japantimes.co.jp/life/language/

Interesting, indeed!

[ibanezmonster]

For about a week I have been watching anime with Japanese audio/English subs and reading the Japanese subtitle in a browser.

I've never had this amount of rapid increase of comprehension of spoken Japanese before. If I kept doing this for 6 or 7 months, I'd probably be awed at how much I could understand. I might turn on Japanese TV and watch it as if it were in English. 

Mainly, rather than learning tons and tons of new vocabulary, I think I'm just consolidating everything I know or barely remember and am able to hear more smoothly. This is where I get my subtitles:

http://kitsunekko.net/subtitles/japanese/

[DaveF]

I'm glad this thread has come to life - all very interesting.  I read somewhere that Japanese is the largest Isolate (language unrelated to any other) - so good luck to anyone trying to learn it.  Although Wikipedia states that Korean is in fact the largest, and doesn't even include Japanese on its list, so maybe classifications have changed, or perhaps my memory is just rubbish.

Certain Celtic pairs also belong on the list of mutually-comprehensible languages: Welsh and Cornish, Scottish Gaelic and Irish.

I'm just beginning to learn Norwegian, as part of preparation for a cycling trip some time in the (distant) future, when my son is grown up and I'm retired - down through Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany and the Netherlands.  I asked a Norwegiophile friend what was the best lingua franca for getting around Scandinavia and he said Norwegian (well, he would, wouldn't he) - although reading past posts above suggests that perhaps Swedish would be a better bet.  Reassuring though that a Dane said he could understand Norwegian if it was spoken slowly - which will definitely be me.

Must now also include Friesland on my itinerary, to see if I can buy a cow.

DF

[ibanezmonster]

I read somewhere that Japanese is the largest Isolate (language unrelated to any other)

Basically, though knowing English first will help a lot (seems an almost mandatory prerequisite to me) and anyone who knows Chinese and English will have the biggest advantage.

[Karl Henning]

Paul is ahead of the curve!