J.S. Bach on the Organ

[prémont]

What that shows is that (deliberately) uninformed organ playing is not history. I think you can see the same tendencies elsewhere-- with performers like Hengelbrock. I bet there are examples from harpsichordists too. Someone here once made a comment along those lines about Vartolo's Frescabaldi and Ludger Remy's Froberger. There's a relation here to postmodernism which I would like to explore some day.

I see this tendency as an expression of subjectivism, which may be extreme (Lena Jacobsson) and for that reason rather romantic in spirit than postmodernistic.

The dissonances are really striking in Jolanda Zwoferink  performances (I'm going from memory here -- I've not had a chance to relisten) If that's right, is that because of the registration?

Her registration is a standard registration for pieces like this (16´ plenum up to mixtures with added reeds in the pedal), and I think the dissonances shine through because of her pronounced legato playing.

Same for Cor van Wageningen's. For some reason I can't get what he does out of my head.

Van Wageningen´s BWV 686 took me from the first listening. However even if it is slow and relative legato, I think he keeps within stylistic limits..

[Mandryka]

I see this tendency as an expression of subjectivism, which may be extreme (Lena Jacobsson) and for that reason rather romantic in spirit than postmodernistic.

Rather than the inspired juxtaposition of disparate performance styles.  I need to think about that.

This was one reason why I was curious about what her performance principle are --whether Jolanda Zwoferink  rejects historicism outright.

Lena Jacobson's Buxtehude  is grounded in ideas about baroque rhetoric isn't it? She wrote a paper called "Musical Rhetoric in Buxtehude's Free Organ Works" which I've not seen, I don't have access to a university library any more. I've always assumed that the CD is a sort of expression of the ideas in the research. I've been listening to that CD quite a bit -- that's what led me to explore what she's put on youtube.

Her registration is a standard registration for pieces like this (16´ plenum up to mixtures with added reeds in the pedal), and I think the dissonances shine through because of her pronounced legato playing.

Do you think real romantic performance would bring out dissonances like that?

Van Wageningen´s BWV 686 took me from the first listening. However even if it is slow and relative legato, I think he keeps within stylistic limits..

I agree, it's interesting. Unfortunately it's too difficult to order his CD from the UK. They don't take credit card or paypal, you have to make a transfer direct to their account which isn't so straightforward from sterling to euros.

[prémont]

Lena Jacobson's Buxtehude  is grounded in ideas about baroque rhetoric isn't it? She wrote a paper called "Musical Rhetoric in Buxtehude's Free Organ Works" which I've not seen, I don't have access to a university library any more. I've always assumed that the CD is a sort of expression of the ideas in the research. I've been listening to that CD quite a bit -- that's what led me to explore what she's put on youtube. 

Interpreting baroque music is about displaying common human affects and presupposes a high degree of objectivism. Whatever Lena Jacobson claims to be the basis for her playing style, I think she expresses an extreme subjectivism, which is improvisatory in nature and is about her own sentiments, i.e. romantic. The more I listen to her, the more I get that impression, not the least after listening to the Scarlatti sonata.

Do you think real romantic performance would bring out dissonances like that? 

If you, when using the words "real romantic performance", mean when played in similar style and registration on a romantic organ, the answer is no, it would sound softer. So do you with "inspired juxtaposition of disparate performance styles" mean played in romantic style on a baroque organ? Well, above I have only commented her playing style, not the organ from that point of view. Thinking it over, I  tend to believe, that her choice of a baroque organ is well considered. If she had chosen to play Bach in romantic style on a romantic organ, she would miss most of the target group, she probably aims at, which I think consists of educated music lovers, who find baroque or neo-baroque organs obligatory for Bach. A similar reason with the opposite sign why Wolfgang Rübsam chose the piano for his Bach suites and not the clavichord or the harpsichord, the average American (his presumed target group) rejecting anything but piano.

I agree, it's interesting. Unfortunately it's too difficult to order his CD from the UK. They don't take credit card or paypal, you have to make a transfer direct to their account which isn't so straightforward from sterling to euros.

Yes certainly, but I have several times been compelled to do so, because I eagerly wanted the CD´s, and this was the only way to go.

[Marc]

[....]
This was one reason why I was curious about what her performance principle are --whether Jolanda Zwoferink  rejects historicism outright.

Here's Zwoferink quoted from an interview in a Dutch reformatory newspaper (Reformatorisch Dagblad), december 2011. The translation is a bit clumsy. It is done by yers truly, you knöw.

What is the ideal Bach Interpretation?

"Not the Dutch practice of the past twenty years, which is characterized by non-legato, all notes unbound. I don't want to be part of that school. I feel rather inspired by recordings of Piet Kee, Arie Keijzer and Charles de Wolff. Eventually my interpretation roots in the French organ school, like the approach of Marcel Dupré. The starting point is legato playing, the tied game. From there I make the choice whether I play with or without bounded notes. I put every note I play on the magnifier. With every note I choose the desired articulation and then play consistently according to the chosen method. The general mood has to be a quiet rendition. Incidentally, Bach can be played convincingly in at least 20 different ways."

[prémont]

Here's Zwoferink quoted from an interview in a Dutch reformatory newspaper (Reformatorisch Dagblad), december 2011. The translation is a bit clumsy. It is done by yers truly, you knöw.

What is the ideal Bach Interpretation?

"Not the Dutch practice of the past twenty years, which is characterized by non-legato, all notes unbound. I don't want to be part of that school. I feel rather inspired by recordings of Piet Kee, Arie Keijzer and Charles de Wolff. Eventually my interpretation roots in the French organ school, like the approach of Marcel Dupré. The starting point is legato playing, the tied game. From there I make the choice whether I play with or without bounded notes. I put every note I play on the magnifier. With every note I choose the desired articulation and then play consistently according to the chosen method. The general mood has to be a quiet rendition. Incidentally, Bach can be played convincingly in at least 20 different ways."

Thanks, Marc, it seems that she rejects historicism.

[kishnevi]

Here's Zwoferink quoted from an interview in a Dutch reformatory newspaper (Reformatorisch Dagblad), december 2011. The translation is a bit clumsy. It is done by yers truly, you knöw.

The translation is anything but clumsy.  But what do you mean by a "reformatory newspaper".  Here in the USA, reformatory is a term, now somewhat obsolete, for a prison designed for juveniles.   I'm guessing a connection to the Dutch Reformed Church, which does exist here in the USA in a non-obsolete fashion.

[Mandryka]

Here's Zwoferink quoted from an interview in a Dutch reformatory newspaper (Reformatorisch Dagblad), december 2011. The translation is a bit clumsy. It is done by yers truly, you knöw.

What is the ideal Bach Interpretation?

"Not the Dutch practice of the past twenty years, which is characterized by non-legato, all notes unbound. I don't want to be part of that school. I feel rather inspired by recordings of Piet Kee, Arie Keijzer and Charles de Wolff. Eventually my interpretation roots in the French organ school, like the approach of Marcel Dupré. The starting point is legato playing, the tied game. From there I make the choice whether I play with or without bounded notes. I put every note I play on the magnifier. With every note I choose the desired articulation and then play consistently according to the chosen method. The general mood has to be a quiet rendition. Incidentally, Bach can be played convincingly in at least 20 different ways."

Thanks -- much appreciated. That point about "quiet rendition" is a bit puzzling, given that the choral prelude you posted is hardly quiet!

[Bachxtehude]

@Marc,premont,and Mandryka...thanks for the welcome and links to the other threads.Much appreciated.

[Marc]

The translation is anything but clumsy.  But what do you mean by a "reformatory newspaper".  Here in the USA, reformatory is a term, now somewhat obsolete, for a prison designed for juveniles.   I'm guessing a connection to the Dutch Reformed Church, which does exist here in the USA in a non-obsolete fashion.

Indeed. I had better written 'reformed'.

Thanks -- much appreciated. That point about "quiet rendition" is a bit puzzling, given that the choral prelude you posted is hardly quiet!

I think she means: not rushed.

[prémont]

Here's Zwoferink quoted from an interview december 2011.
What is the ideal Bach Interpretation?

"Not the Dutch practice of the past twenty years, which is characterized by non-legato, all notes unbound."

Having read this statement a bit closer I am surprised, that a well-educated Dutch organist can say this nonsense. The so called Dutch practice is not to play all notes unbound, but to group the notes in small unities or "cell´s", which can be played non-legato or strictly legato as well.  F.i. : in a group of three short notes played legato the first will seem to receive a small accent, even if this actually is impossible to do on an organ. But it feels so, it happens in our mind.  The "trick" is to be able to indicate the rhythm and distinguish between good and less good notes in this way. The first note under the bow also often receives a small agogoc accent (it is held a nanosec. too long) in order to support the impression of good note when wanted. The playing of Gustav Leonhardt among several others offers examples in abundance of this practice. Can Zwoferink be unaware of this? No, she can´t, and this is the reason why one has got to read her words with some reservation. 

[Marc]

Having read this statement a bit closer I am surprised, that a well-educated Dutch organist can say this nonsense. The so called Dutch practice is not to play all notes unbound, but to group the notes in small unities or "cell´s", which can be played non-legato or strictly legato as well.  F.i. : in a group of three short notes played legato the first will seem to receive a small accent, even if this actually is impossible to do on an organ. But it feels so, it happens in our mind.  The "trick" is to be able to indicate the rhythm and distinguish between good and less good notes in this way. The first note under the bow also often receives a small agogoc accent (it is held a nanosec. too long) in order to support the impression of good note when wanted. The playing of Gustav Leonhardt among several others offers examples in abundance of this practice. Can Zwoferink be unaware of this? No, she can´t, and this is the reason why one has got to read her words with some reservation.

Yes. Agreed.

And if I may add: I don't understand those twenty years, either. The Dutch HIP-related movement exists much longer. Plus: to what part(s) of this movement is she referring? There are quite some differences between Leonhardt, Koopman, Kooiman et cetera. (Only mentioning the keyboard 'tigers'.)

Funny thing though: she rejects the 'historic' approach to play Bach, but she certainly used a 'historic' claim to support her opinion that Bach should be played on Silbermann or Hildebrandt organs:
IMO, Bach composed for this central German organ type, for instruments with a monumental, wide and lovely sound, which also were equipped with a snappy sounding Hauptwerk. The organ in the Cathedral of Dresden possesses all registers known that Bach wanted: the Untersatz 32' and Fagott 16', and various strings and tremulants. Add to that the excellent acoustics and the picture is complete.

About Schnitger:
The North German organs of f.i. Schnitger are more distinguished, but possess less ground. And Schnitger's flute registers are more penetrating than the sweet Silbermann flutes.

A problem sometimes with interviews like these is, I think, that there is an apparant necessity among musicians to make really firm ideologic (or contra-ideologic) statements. Of course Zwoferink isn't unique in doing so: many musicians do the same. And I must say, that the Dutch have a tradition in this. Maybe it can be linked to our calvinistic background. We like to show our lifted forefinger.

One needs to realize in this particular case, that there are many Dutch HIP-related musicians and critics who have said goodbye for good to the non-HIP approach for already thousands of times during the last 40 years or so. And this has caused annoyance, which I think is understandable.

Of course Zwoferink's statements did cause quite some reactions. And yes: again there were (informed) people who again claimed that Zwoferink's way of playing was outdated. Which is, whether these people like it or not, nonsense. The practice proves the opposite. There are still musicians who want others things to be said with their interpretations. And there will still be more than enough listeners who enjoy another way of music making, 'outdated' or not. Needless to say: there were also many positive reactions to both her disc and her interview. One could almost sense a sigh of relief among people who felt that they were ridiculed by rulers of the HIP-doctrine, who claim to 'know it all'.

[milk]

Don't let me interrupt this very absorbing conversation. I've been comparing Leipzig chorale recordings: Astrionio, Rubsam, Walcha, Foccroulle, and Otto. I take it that when Otto is referred to as old fashioned, it is for different reasons than Zwoferink? Is it that Otto's playing is rather strict? That was my impression tonight.
Kooiman seems to get mentioned quite a bit here but not with the same glowing admiration as Walcha, Rubsam and Rogg. I'm tempted by Kooiman's complete set (Kooiman et al). So was Kooiman in the HIP vanguard then? Sorry if my questions are a  bit inane. So are some folks here enamored with Kooiman? I downloaded one Kooiman track (651) and love it. But his set isn't cheap. I have to say the Astrionio Leipzig CD has been a great time for me (for my jogging). I don't know, I always want more. 

[Marc]

Don't let me interrupt this very absorbing conversation. I've been comparing Leipzig chorale recordings: Astrionio, Rubsam, Walcha, Foccroulle, and Otto. I take it that when Otto is referred to as old fashioned, it is for different reasons than Zwoferink? Is it that Otto's playing is rather strict? That was my impression tonight.
Kooiman seems to get mentioned quite a bit here but not with the same glowing admiration as Walcha, Rubsam and Rogg. I'm tempted by Kooiman's complete set (Kooiman et al). So was Kooiman in the HIP vanguard then? Sorry if my questions are a  bit inane. So are some folks here enamored with Kooiman? I downloaded one Kooiman track (651) and love it. But his set isn't cheap. I have to say the Astrionio Leipzig CD has been a great time for me (for my jogging). I don't know, I always want more.

First reactions to your post, which is not interrupting anything AFAIC.

I haven't heard the Otto and Astrionio recordings, so it would be difficult to compare with Zwoferink, who btw only played BWV 668 ("Vor deinen Thron tret ich hiermit") on her discussed disc for Prestare.

I think Ewald Kooiman gets less mentioned than many others for various reasons:

- his first integral was only on LP.
- his 2nd integral was recorded for a small label (Coronata) and went OOP quite soon.
- his 3rd integral was suddenly interrupted by his untimely death.

He was/is still a household name in the Dutch organ world, a well-known name among baroque (keyboard) musicologists, but not a world famous organist like Walcha, Rogg, Alain, Rübsam or Koopman. Most of Kooiman's recordings were issued only by small (Dutch) recording companies.

He was born in 1938, 10 years later than Leonhardt, who was indeed in the HIP-py vanguard. During his study in the 60s Kooiman quickly became interested in the HIP approach to baroque organ music. He became very influental in the Dutch and German baroque world, also because of his publications. He has published a lot of unknown baroque organ music, f.i. with his collection called Incognita Organo.
His best known book, which he wrote with Gerhard Weinberger (organist of the CPO Bach organ integral), is probably Zur Interpretation Der Orgelmusik J.S. Bachs (On the interpretation of J.S. Bach's organ music).

And yes, I am enamored with Kooiman's Bach playing. I've been so lucky to get all volumes of his 2nd integral (Coronata), though some of them only with the help of the Dutch central library. I rate this integral very high. Maybe his playing isn't always 'perfect', but IMHO Kooiman plays in a very informed, thoughtful and lively way.

At first Kooiman was convinced that the French Silbermann organs weren't suited for Bach, but in the end of his life he changed his mind about that. It's a pity he died before completing this 3rd integral, but I still consider it worthwhile having. His pupils Ute Gremmel-Geuchen, Gerhard Gnann and Bernhard Klapprott, who completed the set, are very capable, too.

[Bachxtehude]

I really enjoy the Kooiman recordings I have.I was in the process of collecting his CD's on Coronata in the 90s...until they became unavailable here.I have up to volume 9,and another CD of his playing Bach,Buxtehude,and Lubeck on three historic organs.Volume 8 introduced me to the Holzhey organ in Weissenau.Really wish I had all the volumes like you,Marc.The new set that his pupils finished is on my wish-list.

[milk]

First reactions to your post, which is not interrupting anything AFAIC.

I haven't heard the Otto and Astrionio recordings, so it would be difficult to compare with Zwoferink, who btw only played BWV 668 ("Vor deinen Thron tret ich hiermit") on her discussed disc for Prestare.

I think Ewald Kooiman gets less mentioned than many others for various reasons:

- his first integral was only on LP.
- his 2nd integral was recorded for a small label (Coronata) and went OOP quite soon.
- his 3rd integral was suddenly interrupted by his untimely death.

He was/is still a household name in the Dutch organ world, a well-known name among baroque (keyboard) musicologists, but not a world famous organist like Walcha, Rogg, Alain, Rübsam or Koopman. Most of Kooiman's recordings were issued only by small (Dutch) recording companies.

He was born in 1938, 10 years later than Leonhardt, who was indeed in the HIP-py vanguard. During his study in the 60s Kooiman quickly became interested in the HIP approach to baroque organ music. He became very influental in the Dutch and German baroque world, also because of his publications. He has published a lot of unknown baroque organ music, f.i. with his collection called Incognita Organo.
His best known book, which he wrote with Gerhard Weinberger (organist of the CPO Bach organ integral), is probably Zur Interpretation Der Orgelmusik J.S. Bachs (On the interpretation of J.S. Bach's organ music).

And yes, I am enamored with Kooiman's Bach playing. I've been so lucky to get all volumes of his 2nd integral (Coronata), though some of them only with the help of the Dutch central library. I rate this integral very high. Maybe his playing isn't always 'perfect', but IMHO Kooiman plays in a very informed, thoughtful and lively way.

At first Kooiman was convinced that the French Silbermann organs weren't suited for Bach, but in the end of his life he changed his mind about that. It's a pity he died before completing this 3rd integral, but I still consider it worthwhile having. His pupils Ute Gremmel-Geuchen, Gerhard Gnann and Bernhard Klapprott, who completed the set, are very capable, too.

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I think I will make this purchase.

[Mandryka]

Don't let me interrupt this very absorbing conversation. I've been comparing Leipzig chorale recordings: Astrionio, Rubsam, Walcha, Foccroulle, and Otto. I take it that when Otto is referred to as old fashioned, it is for different reasons than Zwoferink? Is it that Otto's playing is rather strict? That was my impression tonight.
Kooiman seems to get mentioned quite a bit here but not with the same glowing admiration as Walcha, Rubsam and Rogg. I'm tempted by Kooiman's complete set (Kooiman et al). So was Kooiman in the HIP vanguard then? Sorry if my questions are a  bit inane. So are some folks here enamored with Kooiman? I downloaded one Kooiman track (651) and love it. But his set isn't cheap. I have to say the Astrionio Leipzig CD has been a great time for me (for my jogging). I don't know, I always want more.

How did you enjoy the Rubsam?

I really love his registrations, and the way he creates this rapt warm inviting prayerful feeling, without getting too poe faced. Or at least, I don't think it's too reverential. Neither do I find him too sweet and smooth contoured.

It's become my favourite record of those chorales in a way, even though I just can't listen to it if I've been listening to anyone else playing the same music. He just sounds too turgid.

But if I listen to it with an open mind, as it were, I love what he does.

[milk]

How did you enjoy the Rubsam?

I really love his registrations, and the way he creates this rapt warm inviting prayerful feeling, without getting too poe faced. Or at least, I don't think it's too reverential. Neither do I find him too sweet and smooth contoured.

It's become my favourite record of those chorales in a way, even though I just can't listen to it if I've been listening to anyone else playing the same music. He just sounds too turgid.

But if I listen to it with an open mind, as it were, I love what he does.

I enjoy it all very much. Walcha creates a kind of total world. And I like the contrast of Rubsam's pathos. I also really got into the Atsrionio - and not even so much for the chorus but for his convincing performances and for the sound of the instrument. I have to keep going back and comparing. I'm normally not able to describe well why I like what I like.
There was a long time when I couldn't listen to the organ at all. Now I can't stop. I wanted to introduce a friend of mine to the glory of Bach's organ works do I gave him the Saorgin organ book recording. He said it made him feel like he was at a funeral. Oh well.     

[Marc]

I enjoy it all very much. Walcha creates a kind of total world. And I like the contrast of Rubsam's pathos. I also really got into the Atsrionio - and not even so much for the chorus but for his convincing performances and for the sound of the instrument. I have to keep going back and comparing. I'm normally not able to describe well why I like what I like.
There was a long time when I couldn't listen to the organ at all. Now I can't stop. I wanted to introduce a friend of mine to the glory of Bach's organ works do I gave him the Saorgin organ book recording. He said it made him feel like he was at a funeral. Oh well.   

Funeral?

No problem.

Mit Fried' und Freud' ich fahr dahin.



Seriously: I think I wouldn't start with too much chorales to invite someone to Bach's organ world.

Trio Sonatas or a Vivaldi concerto (like BWV 593) have the benefit of combining uplifting outer movements with meditative slow movements, and some of the shorter preludes (BWV 531, 533, 549 f.i.) offer a more Barock 'n' roll feeling to the unexperienced listeners, without lasting too long.

It enables them to appreciate the possibilities of the instrument, like in sound (wow, it's really a huge synthesizer!) or rhythm (wow, one can really dance to this music!) and to somehow detach the organ from the ecclesiastical/religious/funeral-like/whatever background.

Maybe, after that, it's a bit easier to confront them with those church songs and hymns.

Just a suggestion of course.
Musical appreciation works in mysterious ways.

[milk]

Funeral?

No problem.

Mit Fried' und Freud' ich fahr dahin.



Seriously: I think I wouldn't start with too much chorales to invite someone to Bach's organ world.

Trio Sonatas or a Vivaldi concerto (like BWV 593) have the benefit of combining uplifting outer movements with meditative slow movements, and some of the shorter preludes (BWV 531, 533, 549 f.i.) offer a more Barock 'n' roll feeling to the unexperienced listeners, without lasting too long.

It enables them to appreciate the possibilities of the instrument, like in sound (wow, it's really a huge synthesizer!) or rhythm (wow, one can really dance to this music!) and to somehow detach the organ from the ecclesiastical/religious/funeral-like/whatever background.

Maybe, after that, it's a bit easier to confront them with those church songs and hymns.

Just a suggestion of course.
Musical appreciation works in mysterious ways.

Yes, I was thinking something along those same lines. I don't know. The chorales really transport me. But maybe they're not a good introduction. I think I decided long ago to demolish all those mental associations. When I started on the harpsichord I had to contend with the memory of Lurch from the Addams family. But I soon obliterated the image.

Recently I've been paying attention to the instruments on the Foccroulle and Kooiman. I really love those Silbermann's on the Kooiman. I'm not sure what Foccroulle is playing but I definitely prefer the sound on the Kooiman. Unfortunately, much of my Kooiman download is marred by digital noises (for which I received a refund). It has really disappointed me since the Kooiman is not easy to find. Are there any other recommended HIP recordings made on Silbermanns (I have many of the Berlin classic series and some of the Weinberger recordings already). 

[jlaurson]

Yes, I was thinking something along those same lines. I don't know. The chorales really transport me. But maybe they're not a good introduction. I think I decided long ago to demolish all those mental associations. When I started on the harpsichord I had to contend with the memory of Lurch from the Addams family. But I soon obliterated the image.

I assume you're talking about that release?