Eine Alpensinfonie / Alpine Symphony - your favourite version

[PerfectWagnerite]

Hey Paul, if I want to go hear the Juilliard Orchestra in a concert are the tickets free?

[paul]

Well, the piece was played a number of times both by the ECYO and GMJO (unfortunately before and after my time, so I didn't play in any of these performances, the only times I played the piece was in the Staatskapelle Weimar) which are very mixed groups of young people in roughly the same age group, and they played it very, very well at all those occasions (the GMJO performance conducted by Welser-Möst was even released by EMI). How does the rehearsal process for such a program work at Juilliard? Do you get section tuition by experienced musicians from good orchestras?

The rehearsal process is very poor, in my opinion. There is one orchestra in title that rotates players throughout the year with your placement based on periodic auditions of excerpts in front of the instrument's faculty. There are usually five rehearsals per concert over a week and a half before the concert date which we're assigned to by the orchestra office. There is some number of concerts we're supposed to do per semester, but I'm not sure what it's supposed to be and it wouldn't surprise me if the managers chose our assignments rather arbitrarily. The orchestra is treated more like a performing ensemble rather than a training ensemble which is my biggest gripe. I feel that I should be learning to play in an orchestra and learning the repertoire that I need to take auditions. Performances are important on one level, but right now I feel like I should be learning something, not playing big pieces with big names which seems great on paper, but actually has little value for a 19 year old student like me. I did not play one Beethoven or Mozart symphony last year! I would be so happy if we could just rehearse and not perform, but I think that people care about appearances more than I do.

There are very rarely sectionals if the conductor wishes, but I feel that we should be constantly coached by our faculty for concerts. The only sectional I had with a faculty member was my very first concert in the beginning of the year where we played Pictures at an Exhibition with George Manahan who conducts the New York City Opera. Eugene Levinson, principal bass of the NYPO who teaches here at Juilliard, gave us a sectional which was a good experience. I feel that the faculty who want to come to help people at rehearsals are a little afraid to, because not all the faculty get along at Juilliard and I'm sure that a lot of teachers would feel "threatened" if other teachers told their students to do things differently. It's a really sad situation.

This seems to be a common problem among conservatories in the United States. The only really ideal training that fits my desires is at the Curtis Institute in Philadelphia. They're trained by Otto Werner Mueller, an excellent, excellent conductor for students who was at Juilliard too until about a year or two ago in a very rigorous rehearsal setting where they cover a lot of the repertoire that all students need to know how to play. It also helps that they do not rotate players. Being with the same players is such an important part to learning how to play in a section. I don't know how they expect anyone to play together tightly if you're changing the environment for every concert.

Hey Paul, if I want to go hear the Juilliard Orchestra in a concert are the tickets free?

If they're at the school's Peter Jay Sharp Theatre they should be free. The box office is located on the W.65th St. side of the school where the entrance used to be until a few months ago and you can stop by and pick up a couple tickets. I think a complete list of events should be located at juilliard.edu and all the orchestra concerts listed this year under http://orchestra.juilliard.edu. I think that all the concerts at Alice Tully last year were free too, but unfortunately the hall is closed for renovation right now. When there are concerts at Avery Fisher and Carnegie I think they're usually around $15-$20.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Thanks ! I always meant to go to a Juilliard concert but never had time with two small children and all. Looks like some really good pieces, especially the DSCH 10 coupled with Tchaikovsky's VC.

[M forever]

paul - you are completely right, it doesn't work like that, I am a little disturbed to hear that a school with the reputation of Juilliard doesn't provide you a better training environment for what you are probably aiming to be - an orchestral musician.

I just talked about this at length with a friend a few days ago. The problem with that is that music schools drill a lot of people who play technically very well because they spend a lot of time learning to play their solo pieces, and then they go to auditions and simply do not understand why they don't get a good job. After all, they spent years learning to spool off the most difficult pieces without any mistakes, so just how incredibly good does one have to be to get a decent job?

The answer is of course, you don't have to be the greatest player in the world, you really just need good solid technique and the ability to play difficult repertoire technically well, of course, but much more important than that is that you know how to play flexibly in an ensemble. Orchestras look for that kind of musician, not the highly drilled wunderkinder who play really difficult pieces like a robot but often can't play a moderately difficult orchestral passage in the context of a well tuned section. And they can immediately tell if they are auditioning a little robot or a young, promising musician. Many real top orchestras don't even mind if you make small mistakes as long as you project personality and confidence on the basis of a good technique and solid musicianship. After all, the better the orchestra, the more they will want to form you to integrate you into their typical playing style, and for that, they don't need great virtuosi, they need just really solid, intelligent and flexible young musicians with potential. Which a lot of the drilled robots really don't have, as much time as they spent repeating the same passages over and over and over and over and over again...

The only way to really learn playing in the ochestra the right way is to grow into it over many years, beginning in local youth orchestras (which you probably already did), then in higher level youth orchestras and at seminars and training academies under the tuition of experienced orchestral musicians and hopefully, good conductors. Then by gigging as substitute in professiona orchestras, beginning maybe in a smaller one and progressing to bigger and better ones. So it's a long step by step process. Along the route, you will also get to know a lot of people. Knowing the right people is just as important in music as anywhere else. Many of the tutors in such training orchestras and summer academies are professors at music academies and/or players in big orchestras. They will remember young promising players which left a good impression and proved to be very receptive and flexible when the time comes...

There are megatons of such opportunities in Europe, in Germany especially where you have orchestras and opera houses everywhere. Most of them have orchestral academies and internship programs in which they "breed" young musicians while they are still studying at an academy, so you get to get a lot of professional experience (plus a little money for playing there) and contacts. There are many high level youth orchestras there, too. The ECYO and GMJO are only open to young musicians from European countries, but there are many, many other opportunities to participate in high level youth orchestras for everyone. The Junge Deutsche Philharmonie, for instance, is open to all who are students at a German music school. Then there are summer academies like the Schleswig-Holstein Musik Festival, the Bayerischer Rundfunk used to have great orchestral workshops (dunno if they still do that) in which really relevant conductors (usually associated with the SOBR) taught (teach?), like Maazel or Jansons, there is the Attersee Institut in which members of the Wiener Philharmoniker teach, and, and, and...

Plus there are many opportunities in all the bigger citites to gig around on many levels, to make some money and gain more experience, in pickup orchestras or established freelance ensembles, the opportunities are endless.

So what I would seriously recommend you thinking about is basically going to Europe at least for a while. Maybe, but not necessarily Germany, although you will find the most opportunities there, especially in places like Berlin, Cologne, Munich. Or maybe Vienna. It also depends on where they have really good and interesting teachers, of course.

I remember talking to somebody here last year who also played the bass. Was that you? Your reference to Levinson rings a bell. Didn't we talk about him and the 4-finger technique last year?

[paul]

Most likely. Levinson's technique is something I find interesting even if I'm not interested in using it. His systematic way of playing seems to work wonders for him, but very little wonders for anyone else. He does have some very successful students though.

I have thought about going to Europe and two concerns always pop into my mind. The first is the language barrier and deciding if I would want to learn another language. The second is the different playing styles. I play German bow so I wouldn't be a total freak in Germany or Austria, but they do play so much differently in some ways from bass players in New York. I'm really fond of the tradition of bass playing that New York has that goes all the back to Ludwig Manoly, pupil of Franz Simandl, coming to the United States at Dvorak's wish to teach and become principal bass of the New York Philharmonic. He actually taught Herman Reinshagen who was principal bass of the New York Philharmonic who my teacher, Orin O'Brien, studied with in California before coming to NYC to study with Frederick Zimmermann. And the playing has obviously improved from that time period because of our better set ups with steel strings, but the thoroughly classical training and mentality is what I like most. New York in that respect is unique compared to the rest of the country that simply does not have this tradition of great bass playing and teaching.

I've considered going to England to study with either Thomas Martin or Duncan McTier. Martin did a masterclass this year at school and I thought he was wonderful if somewhat goofy. I've also considered trying to study with Franco Petracchi in Switzerland since he's a monster bass player and a famous pedagogue. I'll see what I feel like doing in a couple of years for graduate study.

What's really keeping me here is my teacher and how much I like studying with her. She only has three students at this time at Juilliard with a few others at Manhattan School of Music and Mannes College of Music, so she can give us the personal attention we need. Last year I had two hour lessons every week because she felt like it and this year she's doubling the number of classes she teaches on orchestral repertoire, even though she probably won't receive any monetary compensation. She also has private masterclasses for her students during class with orchestral bass players every year. It's such a nice feeling to know that your teacher cares about you and your playing like that. I feel that even if the orchestra isn't a great experience, she's training me very well outside of the ensemble and leaving no gaps.

[Larry Rinkel]

Paul, what is your opinion of the New York Youth Symphony, in terms of training and concertizing? They give three performances a year at Carnegie Hall and play some very demanding music (Mahler 9, Rite of Spring, Prokofiev 5 - sometimes quite well, but there was a total breakdown in the finale of the Prokofiev 5th that wasn't helped because the conductor was directing from memory and couldn't immediately get the group restarted). Do students from the NY conservatories play there also? And how do you feel about the level of instruction at the other major NY schools, such as the Manhattan School?

[paul]

I've never played in New York Youth or heard the orchestra, but I have a lot of friends who did the program and I think they enjoyed it a lot. The orchestra has a lot of high school students who attend the pre-college divisions of the three music schools in New York and I know a few alumni who attend Manhattan School of Music have done the orchestra into their college degree since they rehearse across the street from the school. It's hard to balance doing an orchestra like that when you have your school's orchestral commitments. Things get really messy if you have conflicts with rehearsals or performances. The program looks very good though.

I attended the pre-college division of Manhattan School of Music in high school which consists of Saturday classes, a lesson, and orchestra. I enjoyed it a lot and I think that it trained me for college auditions well. The faculty at Manhattan School of Music is very similar to Juilliard's and I think the level of instruction is basically equal. A lot of the Manhattan School students tend to have negative feelings towards Juilliard because the bulk of the student population didn't get accepted but still wanted to study in New York. Sad, but true. It's very immature on their behalf and has more to do with jealously than anything else. Even though I feel bad about admitting it, the level of playing is all around higher at Juilliard which doesn't have much to do with better training per say, but more so that the better players just tend to chose Juilliard over other conservatories. Juilliard also tends to give our scholarships more than Manhattan School does. MSM does have an excellent graduate program for orchestral performance and there are a lot of very successful alumni from that program recently including the new principal bass of the San Francisco Symphony and a section bass member of the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra.

[bhodges]

Thanks ! I always meant to go to a Juilliard concert but never had time with two small children and all. Looks like some really good pieces, especially the DSCH 10 coupled with Tchaikovsky's VC.

Definitely go!  Some Juilliard concerts I've heard are among the best concerts I've experienced in New York.  In 2005 Reinbert de Leeuw, the Dutch conductor, did an incredible concert of Gubaidulina's Stimmen...verstuffen and Shostakovich's Symphony No. 15.  James DePreist also conducts fairly often, and he's quite good. 

Forgot to mention that I have another Alpensinfonie: the one conducted by Richard Strauss himself, on Dutton.  While I don't listen to it all that much because of the sound quality, the sound is quite superb given the time period (1941), and Strauss turns out to be a fantastic conductor of his own work. 



--Bruce

[M forever]

Bruce - Strauss' own recording of the Alpensinfonie is obviously of very high historical interest, but please do not recommend the Dutton release which is very heavily filtered and introduces a lot of digital compression artifacts. There are much better transfers. I have two different ones buried in my completely chaotic collection somewhere, if I manage to unearth them, I think I can post whichever one is better, as I believe there is no more copyright for this recording. It was made in 1941 with the Bayerisches Staatsorchester. There is also an earlier recording with the Orchester des Reichssenders Berlin which was made in 1936 and AFAIK, was once available on the label Music&Arts but I haven't been able to find a copy yet 

Some potentially very good news for fans of this extraordinary work: I heard from friends in Dresden that the Staatskapelle just recorded the Alpensinfonie again, this time under their new principal conductor Fabio Luisi, to be released in the near future by Sony. They already did excellent recordings of Don Quixote and Ein Heldenleben with him, so this might be very interesting.

[Renfield]

Some potentially very good news for fans of this extraordinary work: I heard from friends in Dresden that the Staatskapelle just recorded the Alpensinfonie again, this time under their new principal conductor Fabio Luisi, to be released in the near future by Sony. They already did excellent recordings of Don Quixote and Ein Heldenleben with him, so this might be very interesting.

I had the pleasure - no, joy - of attending a Staatskapelle Dresden concert under Fabio Luisi this year, in Athens. The program was Beethoven's 4th Piano Concerto (soloist Radu Lupu - who I thought would have retired by now ) and Strauss' Ein Heldenleben.

I'll be honest in saying that this was probably the best concert I've attended! Especially Ein Heldenleben was very probably the best performance of the work I've heard, despite my having both the Kempe and the Ormandy recordings, for compariseon. The orchestral playing was superb, the conducting was fantastic, the reading excellent, and especially the soloist for violin part was breathtaking.

In fact, I will likely buy any Strauss Luisi records with the Staatskapelle (and likely any Brahms, too) as soon as it hits the shelves. And the orchestral part of the Beethoven was also as good as any I've heard; Lupu dragged, however...

[M forever]

That sounds like a great concert. I envy you, although I have heard the SD live many times. The Don Quixote and Heldenleben they recorded with Luisi have already hit the shelves. The Alpensinfonie will come out this fall.

I was also surprised to hear Lupu live last year. I had actually thought he was dead... But he was still very much alive (filling in for Maria João Pires who was sick) and played Beethoven's 3rd concerto very well with the BP conducted by Oramo. They also played Hindemith's Noblissima Visione and Rimsky-Korsakov's Schéhérazade.

Did Luisi and the SD play Ein Heldenleben with the original ending (in which the music fades away very quietly) or with the revised ending which is usually performed, in whcih there is that one last outburst of the orchestra after the violin solo fades out? They actually recorded it wit the original ending which is very rarely heard.

Was this the violin solist?

[Renfield]

That sounds like a great concert. I envy you, although I have heard the SD live many times. The Don Quixote and Heldenleben they recorded with Luisi have already hit the shelves. The Alpensinfonie will come out this fall.

I was also surprised to hear Lupu live last year. I had actually thought he was dead... But he was still very much alive (filling in for Maria João Pires who was sick) and played Beethoven's 3rd concerto very well with the BP conducted by Oramo. They also played Hindemith's Noblissima Visione and Rimsky-Korsakov's Schéhérazade.

Did Luisi and the SD play Ein Heldenleben with the original ending (in which the music fades away very quietly) or with the revised ending which is usually performed, in whcih there is that one last outburst of the orchestra after the violin solo fades out? They actually recorded it wit the original ending which is very rarely heard.

Was this the violin solist?

It was! I still remember the thundering applause we gave him.

And indeed, I think they used the original ending. In fact, now that you mentioned it, I remember feeling quite intrigued about the way that performance ended: so that would explain why it felt so different!

As you might tell, I'm no Strauss scholar; but I am very sensitive to such perturbations in an orchestral piece, even subconsciously (since, in this case, I don't know the music as well as I do certain Mahler symphonies, for instance).

[M forever]

That's Kai Vogler, one of the three concertmasters (and the brother of Jan Vogler who used to be one of the principal cellists before he took off on a solo career, but he "returned" to Dresden to record Don Quixote with Luisi).

The SD plays Strauss like no other orchestra in the world, with an authority rooted in the unique connection this orchestra has to his music, and which has been preserved and passed down through the generations. I am pretty sure this "rightness" of the playing style can indeed be felt by people "even" if they don't have any kind of "scholarly" background - provided they are musically sensitive. So I can easily believe what you said.

[MishaK]

Simply, what recordings would you recommend of this work? I personally have this one:

The rest of that set has its ups and downs, but the Alpensinfonie with the BRSO is simply outstanding.

[Maciek]

No, I have actually been looking for the Kord recording in vain for a long time. I don't care for Hurwitz has to say about that at all, he is just an idiot and a hollow poser, but I would still be interested in the recording to hear how that orchestra plays the piece.

Have you found it yet?

[Peregrine]

Bruce - Strauss' own recording of the Alpensinfonie is obviously of very high historical interest, but please do not recommend the Dutton release which is very heavily filtered and introduces a lot of digital compression artifacts. There are much better transfers.

I've thought this since owning the CD. A great performance marred by intrusive restoration. Care to share which labels have done it better?

[MISHUGINA]

Giuseppe Sinopoli/Staatskapelle Dresden owns all other recordings therefore mentioned. 

[PerfectWagnerite]

Giuseppe Sinopoli/Staatskapelle Dresden owns all other recordings therefore mentioned. 

Why? That happens to be the recording you own? I highly doubt you have heard all if any of the other versions mentioned in this thread.

[M forever]

Sinopoli's recording with the SD is highly interesting because he understood and respected, but still approached the Strauss tradition in Dresden from new angles and "deconstructed" the orchestral sound to shine new light on, or rather, into it. One can't say that the recording "owns" all other recordings even though one can say that the orchestra "owns" the piece. There is another live recording (also on video) with Sinopoli which is just as interesting, and unfortunately, the DG disc is sonically not optimal as it was recorded live in the Semperoper which can be a problematic recording venue. The sound is a little on the bright and dry side which makes it particularly edgy but also results in a certain "flatness". It would have been great if DG had recorded that "in studio" in the Lukaskirche because by the time that recording was made, they had figured out that location very well (see the astonishingly well sounding recording of Ein Heldenleben and some of the other items they recorded with Sinopoli there in the mid-late 90s). There is a new recording with the SD condcuted by their current principal conductor Luisi which is more "conventional" in the musical approach but sonically excellent. Taking everything into account, Kempe's recording is still the "reference" for the piece even though its sound is not "ideal" either, but it happens musically on a level of its own. Another recording which has important historical value is Böhm's with the same orchestra from 1957. Among more recent recordings, the most impressive one is probably Thielemann's with the Wiener Philharmoniker. The orchestra is in top shape there and plays with a lot of feel for sound and natural phrasing, Thielemann's direction has concept, form, and style, and even though the sound can be a little "crowded" here and there (hardly surprising for such a massive piece), the sound is very good and "natural" overall and allows the dark but glowing, round and deep sound that Thielemann gets from the orchestra to make its impact on the listener.

Have you found it yet?

Nope. I have stopped looking actively though. I had a favorite search with the keywords "Kord" and "Strauss" running on ebay and I got a lot of emails from ebay.de because Kord is the German word for the textile corduroy and Levi Strauss make pants from that...all the emails were for pants, none for that CD 

I've thought this since owning the CD. A great performance marred by intrusive restoration. Care to share which labels have done it better?

I have at least two better transfers, but I simply can not remember from what sources these were, and most of my CDs are still packed up from a recent move, sorry! EMI also released this recording and that may be among the better ones, but I can't get to the CD to check right now. BTW, there is also a recording of the work with Strauss conducting the Orchester des Reichssenders Muenchen from 1936, but I have never heard it.

[Maciek]

Nope. I have stopped looking actively though. I had a favorite search with the keywords "Kord" and "Strauss" running on ebay and I got a lot of emails from ebay.de because Kord is the German word for the textile corduroy and Levi Strauss make pants from that...all the emails were for pants, none for that CD 

Here you go then (I'm normally very reluctant to post commercial recordings but it's completely out of print and seems almost impossible to find anywhere - I was very lucky to get it myself - so...):

Kord's Alpensinfonie