The Men's Rights Movement

[Rinaldo]

And what "wrongs" are these?

For starters? Glass ceilings, wage gaps. Stemming from centuries of us guys calling the shots.

I would highly recommend watching the many youtube videos by bane666au and TheAmazingAtheist and

..aaaaand you've lost me.

[ibanezmonster]

For starters? Glass ceilings, wage gaps. Stemming from centuries of us guys calling the shots.

And those are both highly debatable subjects that have been proven by some and disproven by others. Technically, it's illegal to pay people differently based on gender. I would imagine most employers would try not to break the law.

There are women CEO's and presidents, among other notable professions, in the western world so they're not technically limited in what they can achieve, unlike in some countries.

..aaaaand you've lost me.

So rather than check out the guy's videos, you read an opinionated article about him? Ok...

His videos are definitely on the vulgar, foul-mouthed side. He likes to highlight double standards. For example:

https://www.youtube.com/v/4JA4EPRbWhQ

Bane666Au has more thoughtful commentary, but it is very long and I would understand anyone not wanting to sit through it (first part in a series).

https://www.youtube.com/v/vWP7aKxZBxc

[Rinaldo]

I would imagine most employers would try not to break the law.

So rather than check out the guy's videos, you read an opinionated article about him? Ok... His videos are definitely on the vulgar, foul-mouthed side.

I saw a few of his videos. They are on the 'moron who doesn't get it' side.

There are women CEO's and presidents, among other notable professions, in the western world so they're not technically limited in what they can achieve, unlike in some countries.

Ever heard of the boys' club? Ever heard of women not allowed to participate in politics for example? Ever thought about how much harder it might be to get into a field that has been dominated by men because women were denied entry for the past few hundred years? History like that doesn't go completely away in just a few decades.

[Ken B]

I saw a few of his videos. They are on the 'moron who doesn't get it' side.

Ever heard of the boys' club? Ever heard of women not allowed to participate in politics for example? Ever thought about how much harder it might be to get into a field that has been dominated by men because women were denied entry for the past few hundred years? History like that doesn't go completely away in just a few decades.

Actually, effects like that can go away and quite quickly as long as there is no inheritance effect. Attitudes change, rules change. There's an inheritance effect with race but not gender, which makes it a different situation.

[Jo498]

Actually, they go away fairly quickly. I am pretty sure there are about as many female medical doctors in Germany as male ones, maybe already more in some fields. Similarly with lawyers and judges, although there might be still an imbalance. There are still big differences in technical fields, but (as with garbage disposal) that might have to do with actual inclinations (and furthermore not only in the US are medicine and law often higher paid as engineering). So it took about or less than two generations for women to catch up. I am always surprised that people do not realize that this is rather fast for social change of that sort.
(Similarly, how can people be puzzled that e.g. gay marriage is not universally accepted when gay sex was (or could be) treated as a crime in western countries until the 70s, sometimes until the 90s. This is a lightning fast reversal of a "mainstream" attitude and it is completely understandable that not everyone is happy with it.)

[snyprrr]

snyprrr: heys snippy, let's us goes into that there Men's Thread and do some Posting... (tee hee, giggle, snort)


snyprrr's Conscience: mmmm,.... errrrrr,..... wait, did you say something? Nephew?

[jochanaan]

I have held off commenting here, but the time has come.  ("...the Walrus said, to speak of many things..." ) 

I happily describe myself as a male feminist.  I do not hate myself or my own gender; far from it!  But I do believe in the old concept of chivalry, in which those weaker than myself deserve my support and, if needed, my protection; those equal to myself deserve respect as equals, and those stronger than myself deserve honor as stronger (unless they use that strength to bad effect, in which case they deserve my opposition).

Studies still show, with distressing regularity, that women in fact do get paid less on average than men doing the same jobs, and that a disproportionate number of top executives and lawmakers are men.  This distresses me as a chivalrous man, since there is every reason to honor women, especially mothers, as having to do work that, in all likelihood, would reduce me to a quivering shred of myself!

And when students at a major university in this country, where supposedly equality and the need for consent has been achieved, can chant "No Means Yes, Yes Means ****," it's obvious that a sense of entitlement pervades at least much of "male" society.  This is wrong.  "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" are acknowledged as rights; the rest is up to us.  And if women are disproportionately prohibited or inhibited from equality in the pursuit, that concerns all of us.

One of the characteristics of good folks is how they treat those less well-off, less "abled," or less fortunate than themselves.  Truly good folks are always thinking of ways to help--and the best continually re-examine whether their "help" is indeed helping.  But that's another topic.  Our topic is women and how we men respond to women's legitimate demands for equal consideration in all things.  And I say again, if they are equal, they should be treated as equals, and if they are treated less than equally, then they deserve the support and help of good men everywhere.  And if in some areas they are treated preferentially, that is perhaps also their right since they deal with responsibilities and stresses that we can hardly imagine.  (How many of us deal with catcalls and crude requests for sexual favors from total strangers on a daily basis?)  We should by all means do this, lest we be rightly accused of misusing the rights and privileges we have.

(Before anyone asks, I have myself suffered verbal and emotional abuse from a woman.  Yes, it was bad.  But that does not lessen my respect and honor and love for women as women.)

[Ken B]

And when students at a major university in this country, where supposedly equality and the need for consent has been achieved, can chant "No Means Yes, Yes Means ****," it's obvious that a sense of entitlement pervades at least much of "male" society.

No, it's obvious that sophomoric irony lives.
It is annoying being told you are a potential rapist, that you do not understand that no means no, over and over and over. People resent that kind of infantilizing treatment. That slogan was a mocking rejoinder.

My hope and expectation is that if Sarah Palin gave a hectoring, supercilious speech about how liberals need to learn to stop lying about everything, "Really Jochanan you should not lie about things, you're a potential liar, because all liberals are potential liars, and you really need to take seriously that lying is bad. Do you get it yet? Do you?" you'd flip her the bird. (I know I would.)  It's the same dynamic. You or I might be less crude, but if you said "No Sarah, Lying is good, I learn lying at Liberal Class and I'm proud" no-one would take you  seriously and think you are asserting your privilege to lie. We'd see it as a mocking rejoinder.

Update. D'Oh! A Canadian misses a chance to quote Marshall McLuhan! 
"The medium is the message." Sometimes it is!  The reaction it to the the tone,  and assumptions.

[ibanezmonster]

I saw a few of his videos. They are on the 'moron who doesn't get it' side.

The videos I watched were pretty logical and fair. Not sure if we watched the same videos, though.

If you are referring to the video I posted, then he doesn't get that it's okay to laugh about a women chopping a guy's penis off and mutilating it in the garbage disposal, but it's not okay to laugh about the opposite? Ok...

Actually, they go away fairly quickly. I am pretty sure there are about as many female medical doctors in Germany as male ones, maybe already more in some fields. Similarly with lawyers and judges, although there might be still an imbalance. There are still big differences in technical fields, but (as with garbage disposal) that might have to do with actual inclinations (and furthermore not only in the US are medicine and law often higher paid as engineering). So it took about or less than two generations for women to catch up. I am always surprised that people do not realize that this is rather fast for social change of that sort.
(Similarly, how can people be puzzled that e.g. gay marriage is not universally accepted when gay sex was (or could be) treated as a crime in western countries until the 70s, sometimes until the 90s. This is a lightning fast reversal of a "mainstream" attitude and it is completely understandable that not everyone is happy with it.)

Thank you. Another small thing to add is that more women graduate from college in the US. So certainly no glass ceiling in that long-standing institution. As for glass ceilings in trying to work your way up a company (because male managers don't want to promote females), of course it exists, but is it really such a large-scale problem? That's something that might be difficult to find out for sure- any studies on this (and if so, how would you fix this)?

No, it's obvious that sophomoric irony lives.
It is annoying being told you are a potential rapist, that you do not understand that no means no, over and over and over. People resent that kind of infantilizing treatment. That slogan was a mocking rejoinder.

My hope and expectation is that if Sarah Palin gave a hectoring, supercilious speech about how liberals need to learn to stop lying about everything, "Really Jochanan you should not lie about things, you're a potential liar, because all liberals are potential liars, and you really need to take seriously that lying is bad. Do you get it yet? Do you?" you'd flip her the bird. (I know I would.)  It's the same dynamic. You or I might be less crude, but if you said "No Sarah, Lying is good, I learn lying at Liberal Class and I'm proud" no-one would take you  seriously and think you are asserting your privilege to lie. We'd see it as a mocking rejoinder.

You trying to mansplain stuff? 

I also find the "teach your sons not to rape" slogan and the "end violence against women" campaign amusing. I'm sure there are plenty of parents that don't teach their kids to not rape? How is teaching people not to murder or steal working out? And as for ending violence against women: if you thought it were possible to end violence against one gender, ending it against women would certainly be easier since they suffer from violence far less than men. I actually couldn't find a violence against men campaign. No one would care. It just stems from society's attitudes about gender: like the video I posted where a pretend couple start fighting in public, and people get angry at the man if he is being aggressive with her but laugh at the man if she is being even more aggressive with him, even shoving him.

These double standards don't bother me too much since they don't directly affect me, but when I keep this stuff in mind and then on my facebook newsfeed I see news about feminist outrage over a guy's shirt and saying that that is why women are still oppressed, I think my brain starts killing itself a little.

[Karl Henning]

Greg, when you say no one would care, in the first place, it is not true;  and in the second, it sounds a lot like whingeing, which does not help your argument.

[Ken B]

Greg, when you say no one would care, in the first place, it is not true;...

But it's not so far off the mark either. Men are raped very often in America. (People howl and scream over numbers so I won't give any. Less often than women, not a whole hell of a lot less often.) But "don't bend over in the shower" jokes about prison are a comedy staple. 
Studies suggest about half the rapes are committed by guards. Try raising that issue and you won't find much caring, unless you count hostility as caring.

[Karl Henning]

But it's not so far off the mark either. Men are raped very often in America. (People howl and scream over numbers so I won't give any. Less often than women, not a whole hell of a lot less often.) But "don't bend over in the shower" jokes about prison are a comedy staple. 
Studies suggest about half the rapes are committed by guards. Try raising that issue and you won't find much caring, unless you count hostility as caring.

It doesn't quite sound like a men's rights vs. women's rights matter;  it sounds like a shared regulating barbarian men's behavior matter.

[Ken B]

It doesn't quite sound like a men's rights vs. women's rights matter;  it sounds like a shared regulating barbarian men's behavior matter.

Wellllllll, rape happens in women's prison too. "Indifference to the fate of prisoners" issue I'd say.
But the point at issue was whether people really care about male rape. Not always.

[Karl Henning]

Not always is sensible. No one would care, not so much.

[The Six]

Wellllllll, rape happens in women's prison too. "Indifference to the fate of prisoners" issue I'd say.
But the point at issue was whether people really care about male rape. Not always.

Based on the treatment of women who claimed to be raped who are ignored or ridiculed, nobody cares about them, either. Just look at the cowardly universities out there who shelter accused rapists.

[ibanezmonster]

Greg, when you say no one would care, in the first place, it is not true;  and in the second, it sounds a lot like whingeing, which does not help your argument.

An exaggeration for sure, but yeah, Ken clarified for me.

Based on the treatment of women who claimed to be raped who are ignored or ridiculed, nobody cares about them, either. Just look at the cowardly universities out there who shelter accused rapists.

Um, just being accused doesn't mean anything. Sheltering and protecting real rapists is bad, of course, but falsely accusing someone of rape is also really bad. It happens- maybe not as often as real rape, but it does happen. My friend knew someone that was falsely accused of rape, went to court, and it was proven that she was lying, so he ended up really benefitting from it. That recent UVA scandal also ended up being a girl lying about being raped. The thing I've noticed about some feminists' mentality is that it is a guilty until proven innocent mentality when it comes to rape. You can imagine how difficult your life would be if you were thrown in jail for a rape you didn't commit (jail for several years + likely being raped in jail + loss of reputation + loss of job + loss of whatever relationships you've had, etc.), so yeah, wouldn't make sense to do anything until a rapist is proven guilty...

[Karl Henning]

An exaggeration for sure, but yeah, Ken clarified for me.

Rhetorical exaggeration? I am shocked, shocked, I tell you.

[The Six]

An exaggeration for sure, but yeah, Ken clarified for me.

Um, just being accused doesn't mean anything.

And this careless attitude is crux of the problem. I say women are being raped, and your first response is "but some may be false accusations!" That's not good. Being accused does mean something, and false rape accusations don't happen as often as you think. It's much more common for a woman who was raped to not report it at all than for a woman to falsely accuse someone. Out of the ones that are reported, a startlingly low case ever see an arrest, let alone conviction. https://rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates

Even putting aside the real vs. false accusation thing, American universities have a history of discouraging the reporting of sexual assaults. School officials selfishly want nothing to do with messy stuff like rape, and have done all they can to persuade people from not reporting it to the police. There's a reason why 55 universities went under federal investigation for the mishandling of sexual assault cases. It's similar to why Jerry Sandusky was allowed to continuously rape little boys in the shower why Penn State and the local authorities collectively turned a blind eye.

[jochanaan]

No, it's obvious that sophomoric irony lives...

What I hear about frat parties, it's no irony...

[Jaakko Keskinen]

Having read only the first few posts in this topic forgive me if I sound ignorant.

While abe may have made men's position to sound somewhat more difficult than it is, I think I can grasp at the seed of truth here. While I in no way accept abuse of women, I think that feminism can be carried a bit too far. I could, in honor of 25th anniversary of simpsons, mention the time when usually relatively reasonable producer and writer of Simpsons, Al Jean said that the Simpsons movie's message is "A man should listen to his wife." I cannot agree with this. I think marriage should be build on mutual trust and respect, not one side being in control of everything. He could have also been joking, I don't know. I know that for significantly larger time in world history it was otherwise around: a wife should listen to his husband. But do we really need for say next 6000 years similar abuse of men's rights, to make things right? I have heard several comments that all men are swine, disgusting, should be beaten, etc. It is most certainly probably not majority who thinks so, but consensus seems to be sometimes that if someone tries to say that men have rights too (which granted, for the most part, are granted to them, but there are always exceptions) that person in question must be disgusting sexist pig who thinks female should stay in kitchen and knitting, making food to their ever-so-mighty husbands. Surely this must not be the case. Two wrongs don't make a right and so forth, especially considering that surely there are several male persons who have never cruelly abused women and have rights too, or, sometimes, are abused themselves.

I consider myself a male feminist and I am enfuriated when hearing about cruelties against women. But I don't agree with some of the more extreme views that for ex. if ever male should find himself in abusive relationship etc. that he should just bear it because he's a man, women have been abused enough, it's time for men to suffer in turn. As I said, I don't think majority treats men bad. But I am certain, that there has been, is, and most likely will be cases when men's rights have been and can be abused.

Hope I didn't upset anybody.