Why do you NOT like your favourite composer?

[chadfeldheimer]

Well, I mean, he IS a Luciferian, no?

No! He prayed to God till the end of his days.

[Fagotterdämmerung]

  Fun topic! Someone's already had a go at Messiaen, but...

  1. Repetition.

  When Oliver loves a chord, a texture, or a particular melodic fragment, you are going to have your face beaten with it. ( Sometimes, it's worth it. )

  2. Trite melodic material.

  Turangalîla-Symphonie has these rather clichéd bouts where a melody sappier than Disney could muster comes out after the most alarmingly dissonant and complex textures, and it often comes across comically. ( To fair, this element mostly disappears from his '50s-and-later work. ) Threnody For The Victims Of Hiroshima followed by the Wheels On The Bus.

  3. Oversaturated orchestration.

  During quiet and/or slow passages, he's always a master of tone color, but the fantastic arrangements he has often get blurred in big tuttis and a love of fat, massed textures that sound almost... lazy ( though, I'm sure they're not in terms of the care spent orchestrating them ).

  4. Dramatic abilities.

  Saint François d'Assise has some great music, but it's a singular snoozefest as a play. One of those operas to bring a pillow and a sleeping blindfold to.
 

[Ken B]

  Fun topic! Someone's already had a go at Messiaen, but...

  1. Repetition.

  When Oliver loves a chord, a texture, or a particular melodic fragment, you are going to have your face beaten with it. ( Sometimes, it's worth it. )

  2. Trite melodic material.

  Turangalîla-Symphonie has these rather clichéd bouts where a melody sappier than Disney could muster comes out after the most alarmingly dissonant and complex textures, and it often comes across comically. ( To fair, this element mostly disappears from his '50s-and-later work. ) Threnody For The Victims Of Hiroshima followed by the Wheels On The Bus.

  3. Oversaturated orchestration.

  During quiet and/or slow passages, he's always a master of tone color, but the fantastic arrangements he has often get blurred in big tuttis and a love of fat, massed textures that sound almost... lazy ( though, I'm sure they're not in terms of the care spent orchestrating them ).

  4. Dramatic abilities.

  Saint François d'Assise has some great music, but it's a singular snoozefest as a play. One of those operas to bring a pillow and a sleeping blindfold to.

Exactly! That's why my Messiaen phase lasted only a short, but intense, while. Only a few works hold up long term.

As Nate will discover ... 

[EigenUser]

Exactly! That's why my Messiaen phase lasted only a short, but intense, while. Only a few works hold up long term.

As Nate will discover ... 

Well, we are different people...

Turangalîla-Symphonie has these rather clichéd bouts where a melody sappier than Disney could muster comes out after the most alarmingly dissonant and complex textures, and it often comes across comically. ( To fair, this element mostly disappears from his '50s-and-later work. ) Threnody For The Victims Of Hiroshima followed by the Wheels On The Bus.

Ha! It's exactly like that in the transition from the 8th movement from the introduction to the main part. It starts off like the gates of hell opening (*tubular bell strikes*, *cymbal crashes*, *ondes wailing*, *statue theme in brass*), when suddenly a ridiculously catchy melody starts up out of nowhere. I personally love those juxtapositions in his music, but it is clear why it can be off-putting!

I also love the start of the 2nd movement. Chant d'Amour I, should be nice and quaint, right? Then it starts and you're like "WTF?? Love song?"

[Purusha]

That they all died too soon. 

[Ken B]

That they all died too soon. 

Even Ornstein!

[Mirror Image]

What I don't like about Sibelius is he didn't compose more! But I can't hold this against him considering his medical condition and his own alcoholism. What he gave us, though, was an extraordinary body of work.

[eoghan]

Very interesting points about Messiaen above but if I have to stick to my absolute favourite (Bach) I'd have to say it's too much counterpoint which can occasionally sound academic when a simpler approach might have been more musical. There aren't enough "chordal" keyboard works (at which point I will duck out of the discussion, because technicalities of what constitutes counterpoint are way above me). I tend to get far more excited about prelude than fugue.

[Ten thumbs]

I wish Mel Bonis had stood up to her parents instead of submitting to a forced marriage.

[Ken B]

Very interesting points about Messiaen above but if I have to stick to my absolute favourite (Bach) I'd have to say it's too much counterpoint which can occasionally sound academic when a simpler approach might have been more musical. There aren't enough "chordal" keyboard works (at which point I will duck out of the discussion, because technicalities of what constitutes counterpoint are way above me). I tend to get far more excited about prelude than fugue.

"Too many notes."

[Jaakko Keskinen]

"Too many notes."

I always hated that guy in Amadeus...

[Purusha]

Very interesting points about Messiaen above but if I have to stick to my absolute favourite (Bach) I'd have to say it's too much counterpoint which can occasionally sound academic when a simpler approach might have been more musical. There aren't enough "chordal" keyboard works (at which point I will duck out of the discussion, because technicalities of what constitutes counterpoint are way above me). I tend to get far more excited about prelude than fugue.

I don't think there is a single note Bach wrote that was "unmusical". But if you have trouble with his instrumental music, there's always the vocal works, particularly the cantatas.

[Jaakko Keskinen]

I don't like Rimsky-Korsakov's dislike of Sibelius's third symphony. For all his genius orchestration skills, he really couldn't recognice a masterpiece when it looked him straight into face

[Jaakko Keskinen]

Bruckner can be tiring when almost every single one of his symphonies opens like Beethoven´s 9th. Come on, a little bit of originality!

[Jo498]

Bruckner can be tiring when almost every single one of his symphonies opens like Beethoven´s 9th. Come on, a little bit of originality!

That's one reason I am especially fond of his 5th and 7th. But Bruckner is hardly your man if you look for a lot of variety...

[Brian]

Bruckner can be tiring when almost every single one of his symphonies opens like Beethoven´s 9th. Come on, a little bit of originality!

So far I've only come to love Bruckner's 6th and 7th, and the adagio to the 8th, while being bored by the 4th and all but the last 2 minutes of the 5th, and mystified by all the fast movements of the 8th. This isn't Bruckner's fault. It's my fault. But I am confused as to how this can be, or why it can be. Is it the nature and quality of the melodies in each symphony? Do 6 and 7 have something in common that the others do not share, and is that what I respond to?

[Jo498]

I'd say that 6 and 7 are the most "melodic" in a sense. (I still find the 6th finale rather weak, otherwise it would be a favorite as well). The 5th is also rather different from the "standard Brucknerian mold" in several ways but not as lyrical and melodically appealing as 6 and 7.
You should maybe try the 9th, especially the scherzo (by far his best movement of that type, I think) and the adagio, overall this symphony is probably the most "modern" piece of Bruckner's Oeuvre. But I think the prevalence of Brucknerians in online music fora hides the fact that his music is an acquired taste for many other listeners.

[Jaakko Keskinen]

So far I've only come to love Bruckner's 6th and 7th

Probably my favorites, 6th as whole, 7th mainly because of that wonderful second movement.

[EigenUser]

I'd say that 6 and 7 are the most "melodic" in a sense. (I still find the 6th finale rather weak, otherwise it would be a favorite as well). The 5th is also rather different from the "standard Brucknerian mold" in several ways but not as lyrical and melodically appealing as 6 and 7.
You should maybe try the 9th, especially the scherzo (by far his best movement of that type, I think) and the adagio, overall this symphony is probably the most "modern" piece of Bruckner's Oeuvre. But I think the prevalence of Brucknerians in online music fora hides the fact that his music is an acquired taste for many other listeners.

I love the 6th and I'm getting to know the 7th. I heard the finale of the 8th today and really liked it.

I'm growing to like the finale of the 6th movement more and more, but it is still my least favorite of the four movements. I can't help but wish he had brought back a big, loud, triumphant return of that dotted-triplet rhythm that pervades the first movement (i.e. what the violins have at the opening of the symphony). He brings it back, but it is hardly perceptible unless you've seen the score (which I have). Maybe he would have revised it if I suggested it to him .

[Jo498]

I am in two minds about Bruckner's finales. On the one hand, my patience is severely stretched by the overblown finales of 4,5 and especially 8. On the other hand, I have to agree that in the 7th the finale might be to light for the preceding movements, even more so in the 6th. Disregarding the overall balance of the whole symphony, I just do not care all that much for the music of the 6th's finale.
The miracle of the 7th is for me how Bruckner could write such a melodic and lyrical first movement while remaining in his monumental personal style. Of course the adagio of the 7th is also great and justly famous, but this is where Bruckner excels anyway.