Beethoven Symphonies HIP

[prémont]

Well my conclusion concerning LvB Synphony HIP recordings on period instruments:

Gardiner - don´t stand his smooth polished style

Norrington - used to own the complete set, have kept a few, he makes me yawn my jaw out of joint

Goodman & Huggett (Hanover Band) - too bad recorded sound

Hogwood - own it already, find it appealing and refreshing

Brüggen - doesn´t  bow Wagnerite over and M hates it

Weil - far from complete

Others anyone??

So I shall have to wait for a new set to become released, van Immerseel maybe

[Lethevich]

So I shall have to wait for a new set to become released, van Immerseel maybe

I reached the same conclusion a while ago... For now it's Hogwood until Immerseel... and he'd better get a move on

[longears]

Well my cionclusion concerning LvB Synphony HIP recordings:

Gardiner - don´t stand his smooth polished style Right

Norrington - used to own the complete set, have kept a few, he makes me yawn my jaw out of joint Right--Snorrington

Goodman & Huggett (Hanover Band) - too bad recorded sound Right

Hogwood - own it already, find it appealing and refreshing We'll see--I remember it as rather pedestrian but am trying again

Brüggen - doesn´t  bow Wagnerite over and M hates it If PW doesn't like it that's a good recommendation and M's not infallible.  I like it and my taste is pretty damn good!

Weil - far from complete

Others anyone??

So I shall have to wait for a new set to become released, van Immerseel maybe

You seem to have restricted yourself to original instrument recordings, meaning you've left out two rather good sets:  Harnoncourt & Zinman

[prémont]

You seem to have restricted yourself to original instrument recordings, meaning you've left out two rather good sets:  Harnoncourt & Zinman

No, I own some other sets too, among them Zinman. As well as all the five existing complete recordings of Liszt´s piano transcriptions.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

As well as all the five existing complete recordings of Liszt´s piano transcriptions.

But no fortepiano set, huh?

[prémont]

But no fortepiano set, huh?

Yes, quite a lot.

[longears]

No, I own some other sets too, among them Zinman. As well as all the five existing complete recordings of Liszt´s piano transcriptions.

You said you were presenting your conclusions about HIP LVB Symphony cycles...wtf?  Did the distinction between HIP and original instrument go over your head?  Surely it wasn't that subtle?

[DavidW]

You said you were presenting your conclusions about HIP LVB Symphony cycles...wtf?  Did the distinction between HIP and original instrument go over your head?  Surely it wasn't that subtle?

No you're just misreading him, and he misread you too.

Look--

(a) you told him that he is excluding non-period instrument HIP recordings from this discussion.
(b) Premont misread you to mean that you think that he never bothered with non-period recordings at all.
(c) Premont replies "no bitch, I have it all, even those Liszt transcriptions."  He means that he has heard a great many recordings, but was only restricting himself to period instrument recordings on this thread, which was your original point and criticism in the first place.
(d) You misread Premont's post to think that he is saying that "I haven't mentioned these other recordings relevant for this thread yet but now I am", and you're like "but they're not relevant you stupid ho."

Those aren't exact quotes of course.   But you see it's just a communication breakdown.

[prémont]

David,
as usual, you are quite right.

Longears,
In my nomenclature "HIP" implies the use of period instruments. If I intend to describe an informed performance on modern instruments, I would call it HIP-style, thereby indicating that I don´t consider this to be strict HIP. I find this to be a useful distinction. In my former post I restricted myself, as Dawid points out, only to HIP on period instruments. I own, as told you the Zinman, and even with the outmost respect to him, I don´t think his performances in any way can take the place of a performance on period instruments, whatever his actual performing style.

[longears]

David,
as usual, you are quite right.

Longears,
In my nomenclature "HIP" implies the use of period instruments. If I intend to describe an informed performance on modern instruments, I would call it HIP-style, thereby indicating that I don´t consider this to be strict HIP. I find this to be a useful distinction. In my former post I restricted myself, as Dawid points out, only to HIP on period instruments. I own, as told you the Zinman, and even with the outmost respect to him, I don´t think his performances in any way can take the place of a performance on period instruments, whatever his actual performing style.

Wow, you guys are both whack today.  I must be, too, for taking offense at your off-target corrections and trying to straighten you out--as if it really mattered.  What you say directly above relates to exactly what I was addressing, that HIP doesn't entail period instruments, though your original post implied (by omission) that it does, and your explanation above clarifies that when you use the term "HIP," you mean "period instrument," too.  That, of course, is your prerogative.  "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less."

David, thanks for trying to help.  The role of peacemaker is a new one, isn't it?  Do you really think suggesting that I called premont a "stupid ho" furthers that goal?

(a) I told premont that the list of HIP cycles he presented lacked non-period sets.
(b) He told me that he owns other sets.
(c) I said wtf does that have to do with it? (His ownership of other sets, automobiles, gardening gloves, or all the tea in China has nothing to do with excluding non-period instrument performances from the category of HIP.) 

You are right that it's a communication breakdown, David--just not the one you think.   

[prémont]

Longears,

Excuse my imprecise usage above. I have edited the original post to avoid future misunderstandings.

Now concerning complete LvB Symphony sets played in HIP style on modern instruments:

1) Mackerras I. EMI: Of all the versions I have heard (quite a lot) this is the one which captures the spirit of the music in the most convincing way.

2) Mackerras II. Hyperion: Time will show.

3) Zinman: Much alike Mackerras, but not quite on the same artistic level, a kind of "the poor man´s Mackerras".

4) Harnoncourt: Controversial but never heard it. I have often before become very disappointed with his interpretations. But his Bach recordings from the 1960es are for the most part sublime.

5) Dausgård on Simax. Anyone knows it?

Others??

[DavidW]

Well you got all bent out of shape longears.  Think of it this way-- is your post written for our benefit or for your benefit?  You seem to be pissed because you don't like that Premont doesn't agree with you about what constitutes HIP.  Why should you care?  Just have a beer, listen to some music and chill dude, it'll be alright.

[longears]

Well you got all bent out of shape longears.  Think of it this way-- is your post written for our benefit or for your benefit?  You seem to be pissed because you don't like that Premont doesn't agree with you about what constitutes HIP.  Why should you care?  Just have a beer, listen to some music and chill dude, it'll be alright.

Bent out of shape?  Pissed?  You seem to be going out of your way to try to stir up trouble where none exists.  Neither premont nor I seem upset (reread our posts).  We"re just in the process of defining terms so we're speaking the same language, the aim being understanding--not misunderstanding, whether inadvertent or intentional.

[longears]

Edit by moderator:

Time to get back on topic.

Thanks,
GB

[FideLeo]

5) Dausgård on Simax. Anyone knows it?

Listening to Vol. 4 from this series (7th sym and complete music for Egmont).  Must agree with Simon Roberts at rmcr regarding the overall flat, finicky character interpretation-wise and strange recording balance, despite the good sound and small ensemble size.   String-heavy since woodwinds, pronounced elsewhere, kind of disappear from the sound picture in tutti's. 

[Harry]

Lately I get into the habit of amassing complete sets of Beethoven's symphonies. And preferably HIP, or played in this style.
Now there is a lot of division of what people like or not, regarding tempi, emotional content, size of orchestra, the sound those HIP instruments make, etc. I must admit that if the orchestra is brought back to reasonable proportion, and the playing is pointed towards authentic, it makes good listening for me too. But the crucial point is tempo and the size of the orchestra.
When I started with Gardiner, that was a relive for me, for allthough I loved my Karajan renditions, I always felt there was something missing, and that was tempo. The interpretation was good, but his tempi are to slow at times, allthough I can accept that with Karajan, all else is ruled out. I sampled dozens of Beethoven cycles, but nothing compared to Gardiner, and I had no need to go on, intill by chance I encountered David Zinman, seen by many as a unemotional conductor and ditto interpretation, for me what he did was nothing short of a revelation. Mind you, not all his tempi's are allright in my book, but most of it is. Plus I got a sense of discovery, Beethoven discovered anew, and I got a kick out of listening to those fabulous interpretations and ditto recordings made by Simon Eadon.
Then after that I went on, and bought the inexpensive set of Roger Norrington, also rejected by many people, but listening to it, it thrills me out of my chair. True Norrington, has a annoying habit to reign the tempi at places which he should not, but that does not detract from the sense of urgency and a deep insight into the emotional content. His use of wooden sticks is revelating, and makes for good sonics. This set has many advantages for me also, and I rank it next to Zinman as a very good set.
Today I received the Hogwood set, and yet again I notice that I get involved into the interpretation big time, a rugged and highly strung view, which gets to me very direct. Again funny tempi decisions like all others, but the sound of this orchestra is really thrilling, as I sampled through the box. He beats hell out of Beethoven, and I have the urge to applaud when Hogwood closes off the third symphony.
I sampled the Mackeras on Hyperion, but I don't think that will do for me, at the moment. Jordi Savall also dipped his fingers into Beethoven, and what I heard of that thrills me, so that will go on my list too.
Let me hear your thoughts in detail please, and add some recommendation in my Beethoven Symphonies list, for I will buy more of it, if it interest me.
Over to you.....

[Mark]

Harry, I'm coming around to 'HIP' or 'authentic' Beethoven, too. I used to love the slow, expansive interpretations that made of Beethoven's symphonies vast cathedrals of sound and might, but these days more lithe readings thrill me in ways I'd not anticipated.

Gardiner kicked started this for me with the one-off recording of the 'Eroica' for the BBC film of the same name (I've ripped this from the DVD and can upload it for anyone interested, as it can't be bought as an audio-only performance), so it heartens me that so many here - your good self included - enjoy his complete cycle. This has to be a must for me before Christmas.

[hornteacher]

enjoy his complete cycle. This has to be a must for me before Christmas.

Love the entire cycle except for the finale of the 7th which in my humble opinion lacks drive and energy.  Other than that, its fantastic all the way around.

[Harry]

Love the entire cycle except for the finale of the 7th which in my humble opinion lacks drive and energy.  Other than that, its fantastic all the way around.

I have problems with all the tempi of the seventh, but they are minor though.....

[Martin Lind]

Hi Harry,

I can't boast to have such a Beethoven collection like you. I am grown up with the Beethoven symphonies of Krips with now certainly outdated sound ( something of the late 50 es or 60es). I liked these recordings very much. For example the funeral march of the 3rd is done in something about 14 minutes, which appeared to me completely apt, much quicker as for example Karajan, Solti and Blomstedt, but not that hurried as the newer ones like Zinman.

Later I bought the Kegel recordings, well a more conservative approach, but not bad. Then I bought the Blomstedt recordings now Brilliant which made me completely happy. Bruno Walter was to mellow for my ear. I got the Zinman through this big Sony box. I liked the 7th but the 3rd is too hurried for me.

Recently I got the 3rd and the 6th with Markewich. Mono from the mid 50es. I liked these recordings very much. The 6th is very lively and the 3rd has very reasonable tempi ( for example about 15 minutes for the funeral march). I have also the 4th and the 7th with Szell and always thinked about acquiring more of this cycle. I have also the 9th with Karajan and the 3rd with Solti.

Your apreciation for the Zinman should animate me to hear the Zinman again. I can't claim to have heard everything. It's a pity that the Krips never appeared on CD with reasonable prices, I would like to have this cycle again, as I am grown up with it.

Regards Martin