Sibelius Symphony Showdown: the 4th vs. the 5th

[Elgarian]

Well, unlike some, I don't understand that ending, don't know what it means, and am continually left in a puzzlement. But it is rather refreshing to have a great symphony end in a way that challenges, rather than affirms, its listener...

Oh great - I was hoping you'd join in the fun and games Brian.

I like the idea of the challenge in principle - as in the slash of unexpected red paint in an abstract painting that's mostly bright green. But this doesn't seem like that, exactly. It's more like a Shakespeare sonnet ending something like this:

Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?
Thou art more lovely and more temperate.
Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May,
And summer's lease hath all too short a date.
Sometime too hot the eye of heaven shines,
And often is his gold complexion dimmed;
And every fair from fair sometime declines,
By chance, or nature's changing course, untrimmed;
But thy eternal summer shall not fade,
Nor lose possession of that fair thou ow'st,
Nor shall death brag thou wand'rest in his shade,
When in eternal lines to Time thou grow'st.
     That's 12 lines. I'm fed up and fit to drop,
     My pen's run out of ink, and so I'll stop.

     Bip. Bop.

[Sergeant Rock]

Bip. Bop.

Sounds just like Sibelius 

Sarge

[springrite]

Sounds just like Sibelius 

Sarge

That should be bip, bip, bip, bip, bip bop!

[Brian]

Oh great - I was hoping you'd join in the fun and games Brian.

The comment that "it couldn't have ended any other way" really baffles me, even more than the piece does! Of course it could have ended some other way. (I've pieced together a few other endings in my mind, over the years of puzzling over it.)

Another thing that I think of, oddly, is Muslim art. Mom taught me (my mom's Muslim) that artists in that tradition always have to include an imperfection, because only God can be perfect. So if you look carefully at a Persian rug, somewhere the pattern will skip a beat or contain a flaw; if you look at a mosaic or fresco, somewhere a tile will be out of place.

[Mirror Image]

The comment that "it couldn't have ended any other way" really baffles me, even more than the piece does! Of course it could have ended some other way. (I've pieced together a few other endings in my mind, over the years of puzzling over it.)

Another thing that I think of, oddly, is Muslim art. Mom taught me (my mom's Muslim) that artists in that tradition always have to include an imperfection, because only God can be perfect. So if you look carefully at a Persian rug, somewhere the pattern will skip a beat or contain a flaw; if you look at a mosaic or fresco, somewhere a tile will be out of place.

But the fact remains: Sibelius wanted it to end this way or else he wouldn't have created that ending. We can analyze the whys and the why-nots until we're blue in the face, but Sibelius knew exactly what he wanted and what he was doing. Look at all the revisions this symphony had and then think of the final revision. Sibelius must have been satisfied with it finally or else he would have continued to correct this or add that during his 30 year silence. Just think of all the revisions other works have received as well. This man had one of the keenest ears in classical music and his self-criticism aided him in filtering out the unnecessary, so, with this in mind, the ending of the 5th is something that was necessary in his mind and that's good enough for me.

[Sergeant Rock]

Well, unlike some, I don't understand that ending, don't know what it means, and am continually left in a puzzlement.

Do the last seven measures of Beethoven's 5th puzzle you also? They are remarkably similiar to Sibelius 5. Different tempo of course, so the effect is different, but, like Sibelius 5, just a series of chords between rests. I wonder if Sibelius was deliberately echoing the famous Fifth at this point. Anyway, his conclusion seems to me just as inevitable as Beethoven's.

Beethoven 

Sibelius 


Sarge

[Brahmsian]

I'll take the ending of Sibelius' 5th any day, over the revised final movement of Beethoven's Op. 130.  *blech* 

[Sergeant Rock]

I'll take the ending of Sibelius' 5th any day, over the revised final movement of Beethoven's Op. 130.  *blech* 

I prefer the revised ending. The Große Fuge works, for me, better as a standalone piece. Would you like to borrow my bazooka? 

Sarge

[Karl Henning]

I cannot chose.    Don't be cruel, John. 

Let the fruit arise!

[Brahmsian]

I prefer the revised ending. The Große Fuge works, for me, better as a standalone piece. Would you like to borrow my bazooka? 

Sarge

No, that's quite alright.  I too, actually prefer the Große Fuge as a standalone piece.  I would just rather the quartet end with the Cavatina, or with the Große Fuge.

[Brahmsian]

Celibidache/Swed RSO       15:22   9:16    9:50 (20 seconds)



Sarge

Per smashing chord? 

[Sergeant Rock]

Per smashing chord? 

Yep, 120 seconds in total 

Sarge

[amw]

The comment that "it couldn't have ended any other way" really baffles me, even more than the piece does! Of course it could have ended some other way.

It did end another way at first. You can listen to the original version and decide whether you prefer it.

Ending with a series of chords separated by silences is really common in the classical era; Beethoven's 8th is another good example. With Sibelius 5 the only weirdness is how much silence there is between the chords—the tempo, iirc, is Molto moderato. I think that enormous opening out of space, plus the nature of the chords themselves (the "swan theme" has over the last 3 minutes built up an enormous tension, and the three chords without timpani outline the most widely spaced and tension-filled version of it, Bb/D - Ab/C - Bb/D, but in a way oddly reminiscent of when some ultra-fast car zips past you too quickly to hear more than a "hit" of engine noise), are what give it an unusual quality. As well, the presence of so much silence in a piece previously notable for its absence—Sibelius tends to incorporate really noticeable silences into his symphonies, but the 5th has been playing almost continuously with this final movement in quasi-perpetual motion—casts a new light over everything that's happened so far and forces us to re-examine the piece in light of the ending. Idk like a good murder mystery or something.

I sometimes feel that the only "miscalculation" is not having the final unison land on the downbeat of bar 482, reducing the space between the two notes of the perfect cadence to just a single crochet. Other times my brain goes "no that would RUIN EVERYTHING" so who knows.

[vandermolen]

The Fifth is more popular and I enjoy it. However, I have no hesitation in saying that I think that the Fourth is the greater work.

[Elgarian]

Sounds just like Sibelius 

Sarge

Actually Sarge, I believe in my little outburst of creative carping I have brought into being ...

Sibelispeare!

Thinks: Or is it Shakesbelius? No, no. That would have been: Bop. Bip.

[Elgarian]

Another thing that I think of, oddly, is Muslim art. Mom taught me (my mom's Muslim) that artists in that tradition always have to include an imperfection, because only God can be perfect. So if you look carefully at a Persian rug, somewhere the pattern will skip a beat or contain a flaw; if you look at a mosaic or fresco, somewhere a tile will be out of place.

I could tentatively vote for this manifesto I think. The only explanation I've ever been able to credit - and it's more of a feeling than an explanation, is that he was exploring what happens if you just don't give the listener the release that the music is demanding and the listener is expecting. I'm thinking of how, in 1 and 2, there's an inevitability about the way they will conclude: nay, must conclude. And in fanciful mode, I can almost hear Sibelius saying in the 5th: yes, you know it's coming don't you, you know the kind of ride I take you on in these things, I lead you on and lead you on like this until you can't bear the tension, and then I stretch out the sequence and make you bleed, and just around the corner, yes, don't worry, we'll be home any minute, get r-e-a-d-y  f-o-r i-i-i-t-t-t ... Bip. Bip. Bip. Bip. Bip, Bop.

In terms of what you're saying, Brian, it feels for all the world  like a deliberate withholding of the expected concluding perfection.

[jochanaan]

It's time for an all-out death match!

I see these two symphonies meeting in the middle of the cage, shaking hands and calling each other friend.

[Brian]

In terms of what you're saying, Brian, it feels for all the world  like a deliberate withholding of the expected concluding perfection.

Or, perhaps, like the prior minute or so was too perfect? I think what the explanations in this thread are missing is the context - the shining radiance of that final return of the E flat key and the swan theme's outline. It's already so uplifting, so radiant, so awe-inspiring - how do you follow it? Almost like he offers you a slice of cake and takes it away before you can indulge in that heavenly last bite.

[Madiel]

The only explanation I've ever been able to credit - and it's more of a feeling than an explanation, is that he was exploring what happens if you just don't give the listener the release that the music is demanding and the listener is expecting.

You end up with tense, angsty listeners. Obviously.

[Brahmsian]

Hmm, the gap is narrowing.  Pretty close vote, closer than I would have expected.