Mozart a fraud?

[Franco]

Archives of Professor Karl Henning - Volume 21 Page 881 -(posted on this forum) - 22nd May 2009


1. 'Hmm...let's see... Mozart's father was a composer....MOZART WAS TAUGHT BY HIS FATHER.... ergo. Mozart studied composition with a composer ! Count on us to state the obvious when needed'.

2. 'Mozart went to school at home. His father, a composer, conductor, violinist and pedagogue taught him'

Source - Professor Karl Henning.

3. 'I did NOT say that Leopold taught him'.

(Source - Professor Karl Henning) - Date, Today

I think you have written that you claim that about half of the works attributed to Mozart were written by others.

Which means that Mozart wrote about half of his own works.

Care to name three mature works that you accept as written by Mozart?

[robnewman]

I think you have written that you claim that about half of the works attributed to Mozart were written by others.

Which means that Mozart wrote about half of his own works.

Care to name three mature works that you accept as written by Mozart?

No, the evidence indicates Wolfgang Mozart wrote, himself, around only half a dozen works in his entire life. Including the early string quartets attempted in the style of Haydn. They are of very poor quality.

I do not remember saying anywhere that he wrote around 'half' of his works. Perhaps you can show me ? I never said this, did I ?

Thanks

[snyprrr]

Isn't it easy enough for anyone to find this "Padre letter?"

Just a reminder that since this thread reignited, it's been @10 pages of playground bitch slapping.

You ALL make me feel that if I wanted to learn anything about this subject I would have to go and do all the research myself. Yeesh...

No GMGer has even, it seems, admitted that ANY work of Mozart's has EVER been misattributed (though no one seems to be arguing with Rob about this... it does appear to be part of the accepted canon of "facts").

I'm really disappointed in BOTH CAMPS.

Rob, if you really care about this, and really believe it, you are going about it the wrong way. In a fit of conspiratorial apoplexy I would assume that you are working for the Jesuits in an attempt to draw attention AWAY from the Mozart fraud by making people THINK you're a quack. That way, when a legitimate researcher, in the future, uncovers the truth about what you say, no one will believe them because they will say, He's just pulling a robnewman.

I'm surprised this isn't all because Mozart was really a JEW!!! His name was really Moyezart... oh, I'll stop there before I get myself in trouble...

Oy Vey!!!

[Josquin des Prez]

I'm really disappointed in BOTH CAMPS.

Not really.

[robnewman]

Isn't it easy enough for anyone to find this "Padre letter?"

Just a reminder that since this thread reignited, it's been @10 pages of playground bitch slapping.

You ALL make me feel that if I wanted to learn anything about this subject I would have to go and do all the research myself. Yeesh...

No GMGer has even, it seems, admitted that ANY work of Mozart's has EVER been misattributed (though no one seems to be arguing with Rob about this... it does appear to be part of the accepted canon of "facts").

I'm really disappointed in BOTH CAMPS.

Rob, if you really care about this, and really believe it, you are going about it the wrong way. In a fit of conspiratorial apoplexy I would assume that you are working for the Jesuits in an attempt to draw attention AWAY from the Mozart fraud by making people THINK you're a quack. That way, when a legitimate researcher, in the future, uncovers the truth about what you say, no one will believe them because they will say, He's just pulling a robnewman.

I'm surprised this isn't all because Mozart was really a JEW!!! His name was really Moyezart... oh, I'll stop there before I get myself in trouble...

Oy Vey!!!

You wrote asking for a book from me. You did not say 'please'. I wrote to you asking for your email address which is hidden. You have not answered me. And now you write this.

Can you please organise yourself better ?

Thank You so much.

[Cato]

I have quickly skimmed through the book on an aria in Figaro by Anna Trombetta and Luca Bianchini as translated by Mr. Newman.

The book hangs heavily on the claims of a certain Giorgio Taboga that Mozart did not compose the opera, or that if he did, it is the parts that are "crude" "repetitive" and incompetent that he composed. (p. 52 of the book).

They concentrate on Act III Scene 17 Aria Dove sono.

They examine 3 manuscripts of the aria and make conclusions such as: "In fact this melodic line...contradicts the rules of good composition, rules which would not have been broken by a truly talented composer."  (p. 52)

The melody in question is for the line "di cangiarl'ingrato"



From an Internet site:

http://www.mozartforum.com/VB_forum/showthread.php?t=966


"One of "those italians" is Mr. Giorgio Taboga. I believe you can find something on the Internet by using Google (perhaps there is something in english too). But I suggest you not to waste your time.

Mr. Taboga held a conference in my hometown (Bergamo) about four years ago where he tried to explain why symphonies K 297 and K 551 cannot have been written by Mozart (during the discussion he included the Piano Quartet K 478 and a lot of other music by Mozart and Haydn as well).

All the evidence he was able to bring us was related to a copy of the Jupiter Symphony kept in Verona (If I remember well...):
This copy is written on a type of music paper produced by a firm which closed about 10 years before 1789 (the year of the Jupiter symphony). According to Mr. Taboga, this is undoubtedly an evidence of the fact that the Jupiter symphony was written well before 1789.
In this copy, near the signature "Mozart" there is a drop of ink which, according to Mr. Taboga, hides the letters "Luc". Evidently (in his opinion) the copist was going to write "Luchesi", but then he remembered he was part of a misterious and sinister plan to deceive the humankind and therefore cancelled "Luc" and properly wrote "Mozart". Mr. Taboga showed no reproduction of this drop of ink, so it is to be questioned if one can actually read "Luc" under it..."

[snyprrr]

Great ! Do you want a copy ? Your email address is currently hidden from view.

Just checked my profile. Not hidden, but...

(email deleted)

Wow, that's my email...how embarassing! I didn't pick that, btw!

[snyprrr]

Please!

[Josquin des Prez]

Did failnewman ever mention the underlying reasoning behind the conspiracy?

[robnewman]

Cato,

Thank you for acknowledging your receipt of the Figaro book which you have quickly 'skimmed over'. Your letter strangely quotes a post from somebody on a totally different subject.

For the benefit of readers the 'Figaro' book contains 223 pages including dozens of photographs, dozens of pages of detailed musical analysis, historical notes, footnotes, and images of playbills etc. together with an article in English on the background to the opera. I hope you take the time to read it thoroughly and then let us have your verdict. You will see lots of evidence this music staged in Mozart's name was set to Italian language from an earlier German language setting. Which arrangement was made by Mozart and da Ponte, though Mozart did not compose this music. He merely made an Italian language version of already existing music, by others.

Anyway, happy reading.

[robnewman]

Please!

That's better !!

OK, sending next few minutes. /

Sent GMT 19.33 HRS

[snyprrr]

And now you write this.

Forgive me, I get a bit light headed after reading ten pages of this thread. It's a slog, trust me. Not what I wanted to be doing this morning. Now I just want to see "us" hit 1000 posts.

Remember Pavlov's experiment. The end result is catatonia... and the "I don't cares."

He did...he didn't...he did...he didn't...he did...boing! I don't care.

[Lethevich]

My e-mail is right on my profile page... for a book.

This is a confusing part of GMG's software. The email icon shows for the user whose account it is whether it is enabled or disabled. To enable it until you can recieve the email from Rob, go to Profile -> Account Related Settings -> Hide email address from public? [uncheck]

[robnewman]

Forgive me, I get a bit light headed after reading ten pages of this thread. It's a slog, trust me. Not what I wanted to be doing this morning. Now I just want to see "us" hit 1000 posts.

Remember Pavlov's experiment. The end result is catatonia... and the "I don't cares."

He did...he didn't...he did...he didn't...he did...boing! I don't care.

Great, if you don't care, try golf, or line dancing, or basketball ?

[robnewman]

This is a confusing part of GMG's software. The email icon shows for the user whose account it is whether it is enabled or disabled. To enable it until you can recieve the email from Rob, go to Profile -> Account Related Settings -> Hide email address from public? [uncheck]

Thank you Lethe.

Please let me know if you wish to have a copy also.

Regards

RN

[karlhenning]

No GMGer has even, it seems, admitted that ANY work of Mozart's has EVER been misattributed (though no one seems to be arguing with Rob about this... it does appear to be part of the accepted canon of "facts").

Although some pieces (like most of the "Mozart Symphony № 37") are genuine misattributions, it is simply an error to claim that no one could have written that volume of music.  How should we 'prove' such an 'impossibility'?

Someone, please: send Rob Newman to school!

[robnewman]

Did failnewman ever mention the underlying reasoning behind the conspiracy?

Well, amongst other things the reasoning was the fooling of Josquin des Prez about the life, career and achievements of W.A. Mozart. These dominating the academic and performance realm of music to this day. To the exclusion of fair and reasonable criticism and causing the suppression of the life and careers of many, many other composers till this day. I think the word is 'control' and the Mozart myth virtually controls what is taught and believed in this important area of history and culture.

[Josquin des Prez]

Well, amongst other things the reasoning was the fooling of Josquin des Prez about the life, career and achievements of W.A. Mozart. These dominating the academic and performance realm of music to this day. To the exclusion of fair and reasonable criticism and causing the suppression of the life and careers of many, many other composers till this day. I think the word is 'control' and the Mozart myth virtually controls what is taught and believed in this important area of history and culture.

Yes, but why?

[robnewman]

Yes, but why?

Well, look around you. You see elitism in control of politics, of banking, of virtually every aspect of our modern lives. You see corruption in every sphere. And music and the arts is certainly no exception. The politics of culture and of extending influence. Mozart represents, musically, an early form of globalism, an iconic composer whose works simply tower over the musical landscape and which represents a huge industry, commercially and academically. I guess that is at least part of the answer. It explains too why no books are written in almost 200 years which challenge in any detail the standard story of this person and his life. Mozart is a paradigm. A dogma of musicology. Riddled with errors, exaggerations and downright falsehoods but taught and believed all the same. The net effect of which destroys, or tends to destroy, criticism, musicology itself, and our own appreciation of the achievements of others, whose lives and careers are airbrushed out of textbooks, so that control of culture itself is the end result. The unchallengable domination of iconic composers who cannot be challenged. A form of control, for sure. And exposed only over time. After detailed study of the phenomenon as a whole.

[Herman]

You ALL make me feel that if I wanted to learn anything about this subject I would have to go and do all the research myself. Yeesh...

If you wish to learn something about Mozart and how composers worked in his era you should NOT expect anything good from this thread.

Mr Newman is no musicologist, but just a man with a resentment agenda who wants to knock Mozart down a few notches. He's just allowed that maybe Mozart wrote six works rather than six hundred, and they aren't very good either in his view. You can see how where his animosity towards Mozart comes from in his post before this one. Mozart somehow has to pay for things he doesn't like about today's banks, media and all other things from 200 years after Mozart.

Your dismay at the general tone is understandable. However this is 100% due to Newman's refusal to ever substantiate his claims here. The reason why this thread is so long as that he's ever been delaying delivery of the evidence or even the minutest facts. Instead he's been baiting people here, as he's done before on other boards, where he's been banned for this.

If you want to inform yourself about Mozart the first thing to do is just listen to his music. And yes, it is his music; the character is unmistakable (in total contrast to all those amiable third tier composers NEwmna likes so much  -  they are totally interexchangable). Misattributions there have been (such as symphony nr 37) and they have been weeded out long in the past. By musicologists offering proof, rather than saying "I don't like this."

Second thing is read a book or two. Gurn will be happy to name you a title or two. (I'm not near my music books right now). Please, don't waste any time on this thread.