Author Topic: The Boris Johnson thread.  (Read 109155 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Irons

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1894
  • Location: Surrey, UK
Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #340 on: June 07, 2020, 05:58:34 AM »
I think you are both being naive.  I consider this Conservative government, BJ included , a bungling corrupt lying unscrupulous mess in almost all things, a total disaster when it comes to learning from elsewhere in the world, taking prudent action, protecting citizens, and far beyond laughable in their messaging.

I didn't think it would take long for this thread to get back on track.
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

Offline Iota

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 484
  • Location: UK
Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #341 on: June 07, 2020, 06:37:44 AM »
It is the snarling name calling and distortion of the character of politicians of both persuasions in this age of social media that I dislike. 

I agree name calling can get tired quickly, is often inaccurate and at times unfair. Though it may help let off steam at times .. But Johnson really does come across to me as almost completely useless, depressingly so. He seems to have no conviction about anything.

I read an article a couple of weeks ago whose title was something like 'Boris Johnson wanted to be prime minister, wanted to have been prime minister, but didn't particularly want the bit in between' (can't find the original article sadly, so the quote a very loose one), which sort of tallies with what I see before me now.

And I agree with a number of things in #338, but things are never that black and white, we just don't have time or will to nuance everything in this life. But at a time of crisis, looking for the positive/achievable/constructive in the midst of mess/bungling, seems sage too.

Offline Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 14338
Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #342 on: June 07, 2020, 10:24:44 AM »
I didn't think it would take long for this thread to get back on track.

Maybe you'd like to help BJ end  freedom of movement.

https://action.conservatives.com/immigration-bill-survey/
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darĂ¼ber muss man schweigen

Online SimonNZ

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 8136
  • Location: Christchurch, NZ
Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #343 on: June 07, 2020, 01:11:26 PM »
I agree name calling can get tired quickly, is often inaccurate and at times unfair. Though it may help let off steam at times .. But Johnson really does come across to me as almost completely useless, depressingly so. He seems to have no conviction about anything.

I read an article a couple of weeks ago whose title was something like 'Boris Johnson wanted to be prime minister, wanted to have been prime minister, but didn't particularly want the bit in between' (can't find the original article sadly, so the quote a very loose one), which sort of tallies with what I see before me now.

And I agree with a number of things in #338, but things are never that black and white, we just don't have time or will to nuance everything in this life. But at a time of crisis, looking for the positive/achievable/constructive in the midst of mess/bungling, seems sage too.

Ninth paragraph down:
:
The truth about why Cummings hasn't gone: Johnson is too terrified to sack him

I remember when I read that a week or two back that I'd need to check out anything written by this Marina Hyde in the future


Offline Iota

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 484
  • Location: UK
Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #344 on: June 08, 2020, 02:26:45 AM »
Ninth paragraph down:
:
The truth about why Cummings hasn't gone: Johnson is too terrified to sack him

I remember when I read that a week or two back that I'd need to check out anything written by this Marina Hyde in the future

Thanks, that's the one, glad somebody has better memory than mine!

Such a good and well expressed observation I thought. My mind clearly then decided to make it the title ..

Offline vandermolen

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 17479
  • Location: Rotherfield, Sussex, UK
Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #345 on: June 08, 2020, 02:37:18 AM »
I agree name calling can get tired quickly, is often inaccurate and at times unfair. Though it may help let off steam at times .. But Johnson really does come across to me as almost completely useless, depressingly so. He seems to have no conviction about anything.

I read an article a couple of weeks ago whose title was something like 'Boris Johnson wanted to be prime minister, wanted to have been prime minister, but didn't particularly want the bit in between' (can't find the original article sadly, so the quote a very loose one), which sort of tallies with what I see before me now.

And I agree with a number of things in #338, but things are never that black and white, we just don't have time or will to nuance everything in this life. But at a time of crisis, looking for the positive/achievable/constructive in the midst of mess/bungling, seems sage too.
Yes, I read that article as well (Times/Sunday Times I think) and I'd already come to the same conclusion about Johnson, namely that his ruthless ambition meant that he was desperate to become PM, but his aversion to detailed hard work meant that he did not fancy doing the work (the odd mock-Churchillian statement would suffice). He would then be happy to appear on late-night chat shows telling everyone how he lead Britain out of the EU and through the pandemic. Maybe I'm cynical but that's how I see it.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Offline The new erato

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 14734
Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #346 on: June 08, 2020, 03:51:46 AM »
Yes, I read that article as well (Times/Sunday Times I think) and I'd already come to the same conclusion about Johnson, namely that his ruthless ambition meant that he was desperate to become PM, but his aversion to detailed hard work meant that he did not fancy doing the work (the odd mock-Churchillian statement would suffice). He would then be happy to appear on late-night chat shows telling everyone how he lead Britain out of the EU and through the pandemic. Maybe I'm cynical but that's how I see it.
That's how quite a few of us outsiders have been seeing it for a year or more.

Offline Papy Oli

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 5997
Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #347 on: June 08, 2020, 05:36:57 AM »
One man cannot run a country and it has always been thus. Alastair Campbell was Tony Blair's special adviser and filled a similar role and enjoyed as much power as Cummings does today. Blair had a better cabinet then Johnson who with the exception of Gove and Sunak are useless. Morally Cummings should go but no way that is going to happen as he is a too important cog in the wheel of government. Spent firework is nice stick but have you no compassion for the difficulties and pressures encountered? Johnson got it wrong and made some poor calls but special times don't you know.

Lol,

just my 2p on this : Even if we give him a substantial slack given the worldwide unprecedented circumstances, has he or have any of his ministers actually acknowledged themselves that they have made any decisions or actions wrongly so far in the handling of this Covid crisis or might have done anything possibly differently at least ? To date, I think only some SAGE members have accepted that some actions have been late or incorrect early on.  Would that be correct ? This Sunday, Hancock still said in response they had taken all the right actions at any time. Even if we accept the argument that hindsight is a beautiful thing and that most countries have all been caught on the hop by the crisis, the UK was 2 weeks ahead of the curve and was seeing already the chaos that was happening in Italy or Spain...but he decided we should "take it on the chin" with a dollop of "real British common sense" all while "shaking hands in hospitals"...

Even if we have to credit him, rightly, for some of the actions (Sunak's furlough plan, Nightingale hospitals...), this doesn't make him (or his ministers) in my view any less accountable, particularly in those times, on the cabinet's decisions and actions that led so far to 40-50 thousand dead.

That wouldn't give him the right either to take that offended moral high ground when Keir Starmer had the "disrespect" to ask him uncomfortable yet precise and factual questions at last week's PMQ. Boris so desperately wanted that job. Well, PM is him now and just because it's him, it doesn't mean the Q have to be easy ones to suit him.

To avoid any misunderstanding, my gripe is with him, not you by the way :)  I have been in the UK for 22 years, I can't vote him out or keep him in, I am not allowed to vote for MP's. I just have to grin and bear it..and let me tell you, there has not been much grinning in the last 3-4 years. And that's coming from somebody that genuinely loves this country to bits... and from somebody who has been for 30 years on the (French) right of the political spectrum, now seriously questioning his own political convictions as well.

PS: since you mentioned her in a subsequent post, here is an hypothetical yet genuine question  ;D  Do you believe that Thatcher, leaving aside how one feels about her, would have shied away from such questioning and accountability in similar circumstances ?

This is a genuine question for my perspective. I do not have enough hindsight in her own media and parliamentary behaviour in her time, only some hunch that she would have faced those head-on based on how she was portrayed in the French media.  I knew, from the french view at the time, that she was polarising opinions , but until her death, I confess I had vastly under-estimated the actual hatred for her in the UK, let alone how polarising she was. Some recent BBC documentary series on her premiership and also on the Troubles were particularly educational for me on this period of UK politics. As you said, this could be one for another thread  0:)
Olivier

Offline Papy Oli

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 5997
Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #348 on: June 08, 2020, 05:52:22 AM »
That is all fair comment and reasoned criticism and you could well be right.

Iota's response is indeed well put and more neutrally expressed than I could about our PM right now. Kudos  :-[

It is the snarling name calling and distortion of the character of politicians of both persuasions in this age of social media that I dislike.

Sadly, all sides are to blame for this sour turn in politics during the Brexit campaign.

I know power is most alluring but he would earn buckets of money in the commercial sector without the extreme hassle of running the basket case of UK. Give the guy some slack. I do not think it naive to believe the majority of politicians are in it to contribute.   

I don't remember who said it or where i read it some years ago but something has always stuck with me about politicians: every now and then, they should be reminded that they are not in power, they are in office. Food for thought.

Olivier

Offline Irons

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1894
  • Location: Surrey, UK
Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #349 on: June 08, 2020, 07:43:05 AM »
Lol,

just my 2p on this : Even if we give him a substantial slack given the worldwide unprecedented circumstances, has he or have any of his ministers actually acknowledged themselves that they have made any decisions or actions wrongly so far in the handling of this Covid crisis or might have done anything possibly differently at least ? To date, I think only some SAGE members have accepted that some actions have been late or incorrect early on.  Would that be correct ? This Sunday, Hancock still said in response they had taken all the right actions at any time. Even if we accept the argument that hindsight is a beautiful thing and that most countries have all been caught on the hop by the crisis, the UK was 2 weeks ahead of the curve and was seeing already the chaos that was happening in Italy or Spain...but he decided we should "take it on the chin" with a dollop of "real British common sense" all while "shaking hands in hospitals"...

Even if we have to credit him, rightly, for some of the actions (Sunak's furlough plan, Nightingale hospitals...), this doesn't make him (or his ministers) in my view any less accountable, particularly in those times, on the cabinet's decisions and actions that led so far to 40-50 thousand dead.

That wouldn't give him the right either to take that offended moral high ground when Keir Starmer had the "disrespect" to ask him uncomfortable yet precise and factual questions at last week's PMQ. Boris so desperately wanted that job. Well, PM is him now and just because it's him, it doesn't mean the Q have to be easy ones to suit him.

To avoid any misunderstanding, my gripe is with him, not you by the way :)  I have been in the UK for 22 years, I can't vote him out or keep him in, I am not allowed to vote for MP's. I just have to grin and bear it..and let me tell you, there has not been much grinning in the last 3-4 years. And that's coming from somebody that genuinely loves this country to bits... and from somebody who has been for 30 years on the (French) right of the political spectrum, now seriously questioning his own political convictions as well.

PS: since you mentioned her in a subsequent post, here is an hypothetical yet genuine question  ;D  Do you believe that Thatcher, leaving aside how one feels about her, would have shied away from such questioning and accountability in similar circumstances ?

This is a genuine question for my perspective. I do not have enough hindsight in her own media and parliamentary behaviour in her time, only some hunch that she would have faced those head-on based on how she was portrayed in the French media.  I knew, from the french view at the time, that she was polarising opinions , but until her death, I confess I had vastly under-estimated the actual hatred for her in the UK, let alone how polarising she was. Some recent BBC documentary series on her premiership and also on the Troubles were particularly educational for me on this period of UK politics. As you said, this could be one for another thread  0:)

Olivier

A top post and a big thumbs up from me. Lives have been lost due to decisions made by this Government which is a tragedy for the country as a whole and of a greater magnitude if the loss is a family member or friend. The figures do not lie, a f--- up! There will be a day of reckoning in the form of an inquiry. As you rightly say, so there is little point in me repeating it,  they did get some things right and we will leave that there. The next test, and it could prove to be even bigger is getting the economy off it's knees and that is not going to be easy as we know. My son, with two children under four and hefty mortgage is employed in the travel industry - so yes I am worried.

All that said, leftie keyboard warriors give me the hump. I disliked Corbyn intensely but I kept that to myself out of consideration of people here and a wider circle of acquaintances. The left feel they have carte blanche to attack the person rather then the policy. Johnson is dishonest and all the other shite. They have enough ammunition to attack the policy and yet they go for the man.

You mention Thatcher, or rather I did. ;D I'm from a working class background, my father, Labour thru and thru hated Maggie with a vengeance. I was great disappointment as I worshipped her, but that didn't compare with he supported Arsenal and I West Ham! We still got on great though. :D I have asked myself how she would have handled this. As we know she didn't prevaricate and I don't think she would attempt to pass the buck by saying "we are following the science". So just maybe more lives would have been saved.

Anyway, great post Olivier and thank you for making it.
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

Offline Papy Oli

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 5997
Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #350 on: June 08, 2020, 08:17:12 AM »
Thanks Lol, I will have a few more thoughts on your response but that will have to wait tomorrow.

However, if you're a Hammer, we're going to have bigger problems than politics. Gunner here, of sorts (as it was the "French" team when i crossed the Channel back then to London), although, for British teams, big part of my heart is also "tractor boy" with Ipswich  8) .

Could be worse I s'pose, you could be supporting Chelsea (Yes, Jeffrey I am looking at you !!) or even Spurs  :laugh:  >:D
Olivier

Offline vandermolen

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 17479
  • Location: Rotherfield, Sussex, UK
Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #351 on: June 08, 2020, 12:09:35 PM »
Very thought-provoking and interesting exchange between Lol and Olivier, notwithstanding Olivier's 'Chelsea' comment. I actually think that we (in the UK) would have been better off with Theresa May in this crisis. She may not have been 'bubbling over with personality' but at least she seemed to possess a strong sense of duty and was prepared to work hard. I couldn't stand Thatcher. As a university student I thought that I might have to emigrate if she became PM. Oddly enough on the day Thatcher died or the day after I was interviewed about her on the local TV news. I'd like you to think that I was a specially chosen guest but, in point of fact, I simply looked old enough to be able to remember her when I was asked for my views in the local supermarket car park (the up-market Waitrose you understand) where I had been sent by my wife to do some shopping. Anyway, as I figured that I was quite likely to be seen on the local news by my pupils, their parents and my colleagues (which I was) I thought that I should give a balanced assessment, pointing out her importance in British History (first female PM) while also commenting on her being a divisive figure who polarised the country. Of course they only broadcast the negative stuff. Anyway the next day I was teaching my GCSE History class when one of them put up her hand and said 'my dad read a letter from you in the newspaper in the morning and then saw you on television in the evening'. I pointed out to the class that they should consider themselves very fortunate that I had managed to fit in their lesson between my various media appearances. At the end of the lesson a rather sarcastic girl asked me if I was off to a press conference.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2020, 12:12:05 PM by vandermolen »
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Offline Papy Oli

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 5997
Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #352 on: June 08, 2020, 12:36:29 PM »
Great anecdotes as ever, Jeffrey  :laugh:

(...not holding the Chelsea thing against you...even if I saw your team at Stamford Bridge beating my French team - Bordeaux - 4-0 some years ago in the only Champions League I have ever attended  :(  ;) )

edit - that was in sept 2008 ...guess who was Mayor of London back then...yep...I am on topic and I can blame him for that too  :laugh:
« Last Edit: June 08, 2020, 12:42:11 PM by Papy Oli »
Olivier

Offline vandermolen

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 17479
  • Location: Rotherfield, Sussex, UK
Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #353 on: June 08, 2020, 12:54:59 PM »
Great anecdotes as ever, Jeffrey  :laugh:

(...not holding the Chelsea thing against you...even if I saw your team at Stamford Bridge beating my French team - Bordeaux - 4-0 some years ago in the only Champions League I have ever attended  :(  ;) )

edit - that was in sept 2008 ...guess who was Mayor of London back then...yep...I am on topic and I can blame him for that too  :laugh:
Hi Olivier - I didn't mind him so much as Mayor of London mainly because I couldn't stand Ken Livingstone. I was born and grew up near Chelsea, hence the family connection which goes back to the pre-war generations. My maternal grandfather, whom I never knew, ran a pub in Chelsea. 😀
« Last Edit: June 08, 2020, 01:54:37 PM by vandermolen »
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Online SimonNZ

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 8136
  • Location: Christchurch, NZ
Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #354 on: June 08, 2020, 01:50:53 PM »

This is a genuine question for my perspective. I do not have enough hindsight in her own media and parliamentary behaviour in her time, only some hunch that she would have faced those head-on based on how she was portrayed in the French media.  I knew, from the french view at the time, that she was polarising opinions , but until her death, I confess I had vastly under-estimated the actual hatred for her in the UK, let alone how polarising she was. Some recent BBC documentary series on her premiership and also on the Troubles were particularly educational for me on this period of UK politics. As you said, this could be one for another thread  0:)

Which was this?

Offline vandermolen

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 17479
  • Location: Rotherfield, Sussex, UK
Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #355 on: June 08, 2020, 01:56:35 PM »
Which was this?

Jumping in here but possibly 'Thatcher: A Very British Revolution' which was broadcast last year.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0005brf
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Online SimonNZ

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 8136
  • Location: Christchurch, NZ
Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #356 on: June 08, 2020, 03:12:50 PM »
Thanks!

Offline Papy Oli

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 5997
Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #357 on: June 08, 2020, 11:20:19 PM »
Jumping in here but possibly 'Thatcher: A Very British Revolution' which was broadcast last year.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0005brf

That's the one, 5 episodes of it.
Thanks Jeffrey  :)
Olivier

Offline vandermolen

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 17479
  • Location: Rotherfield, Sussex, UK
Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #358 on: June 08, 2020, 11:40:11 PM »
That's the one, 5 episodes of it.
Thanks Jeffrey  :)

Morning Olivier - Yes, it was an excellent series that I found compulsive viewing. I hope that Simon can track it down in NZ.
Jeffrey
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Offline Papy Oli

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 5997
Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
« Reply #359 on: June 09, 2020, 04:22:17 AM »
In case of interest, the series about the Troubles I was referring to is this one :

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/m0008yrj/spotlight-on-the-troubles-a-secret-history

7 episodes, gripping and not shying away from any uncomfortable angles of the history.
Olivier