Coronavirus thread

[BasilValentine]

Listen to uncle Florestan. He knows - because he comes from a country which was, in very recent history, subject to a totalitarian police state. He knows how the people sleepwalked into it, step by step, one small step at a time, convinced it was a good thing for their safety. He knows that politics is all about controlling the population so as to maximise the profits of global companies. Any opportunity to increase their grip on how the people behave is something these politicians will grab.

Everyone's deluded and paranoid uncles need to get some professional help. We're trying to have a civilization here. It's time for everyone to grow the f--k up and get vaccinated.

[Mandryka]

Everyone's deluded and paranoid uncles need to get some professional help. We're trying to have a civilization here. It's time for everyone to grow the f--k up and get vaccinated.

If large numbers of people in definable social categories are, by failing to get vaccinated,  making dangerously wrong decisions based on bad information, then that's pretty obviously a failure of policy and comms before it's one of intelligence or maturity or personal responsibility.

[Karl Henning]

If large numbers of people in definable social categories are, by failing to get vaccinated,  making dangerously wrong decisions based on bad information, then that's pretty obviously a failure of policy and comms before it's one of intelligence or maturity or personal responsibility.

You're not reckoning on the robust disinformation ecosystem, and its target audience's imperviousness to fact. Under normal conditions, your observation had been germane.

[greg]

Everyone's deluded and paranoid uncles need to get some professional help. We're trying to have a civilization here. It's time for everyone to grow the f--k up and get vaccinated.

Why don't I force you to do something that you personally don't need to do, and threaten to take away your job that you've invested years in? Grow up! We are trying to have a hive mind civilization.

But seriously, I've wondered about the mentality of people that are totally fine with mandates and don't understand the pushback at all. My current guess is perhaps they've kissed ass their entire lives so much that they are desensitized to it and don't understand why others would have any qualms about doing the same.

[SimonNZ]

You do need to do it, and you're choosing to be fired.

[Karl Henning]

But seriously, I've wondered about the mentality of people that are totally fine with mandates and don't understand the pushback at all. My current guess is perhaps they've kissed ass their entire lives so much that they are desensitized to it and don't understand why others would have any qualms about doing the same.

That's what the nincompoops who refused to have their children vaccinated against measles were saying, I expect. Result: measles outbreaks in the 21st century.

So how do you arrive at the "expert opinion" that you don't need the vaccine?

[Mandryka]

If this Guardian article is correct, parts of Germany are set to introduce discriminatory measures against those citizens who decline the vaccine. The article says that about whole 70% of the population is vaccinated - presumably more in vulnerable age groups.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/16/germany-set-to-tighten-rules-for-unvaccinated-as-covid-cases-rise

[SimonNZ]

You're seeing only what you want to see in that article.

[Que]

If this Guardian article is correct, parts of Germany are set to introduce discriminatory measures against those citizens who decline the vaccine. The article says that about whole 70% of the population is vaccinated - presumably more in vulnerable age groups.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/16/germany-set-to-tighten-rules-for-unvaccinated-as-covid-cases-rise

The "2G" debate, also presently ongoing in the Netherlands, is about no longer excepting a 48 hrs negative test result to get into venues with restricted access (clubs, bars, restaurants, concerts). The other two grounds for access are full vaccination or recovery from the disease. For the unvaccinated the negative test result is, besides fraud, the only option to gain access to these venues. Note this is quite different from the "house arrest" that has been introduced in Austria.

The point is that several experts claim the switch from "3G" to "2G" would have a large impact on the infection rates. Which presents governments with a big dilemma. I'm guessing that vaccinating children under the age of 12 without any (individual) medical reason would also help a lot - but is that a more acceptable option?  Or mandatory vaccinations? 

We are running out of options.... and our societies have been taken hostage by a global collective antivax hysteria. People that have received dozens of vaccinations in their childhood to protect them against all kinds of diseases, are now raging against Covid vaccines and are cultivating paranoid conspiracy theories. I cannot believe my eyes and ears.

It's unfortunate, but when tough choices will have to be made it is not unreasonable to place more restrictions on those who choose not to be vaccinated. Not to deny them that freedom of choice, but because the consequences of that choice for others. Some people run significant health risks if they would get infected,  even if they are vaccinated. Others urgently need crucial medical treatments that cannot be given because of the excessive strain on the healthcare system.

One more thing. So when people contract a dangerous and contagious disease,  it is perfectly acceptable to restrict their freedom and place them in quarantine?  But restricting access by the unvaccinated to public social gatherings is an unacceptable violation of their rights?

[Mandryka]

The "2G" debate, also presently ongoing in the Netherlands, is about no longer excepting a 48 hrs negative test result to get into venues with restricted access (clubs, bars, restaurants, concerts). The other two grounds for access are full vaccination or recovery from the disease. For the unvaccinated the negative test result is, besides fraud, the only option to gain access to these venues. Note this is quite different from the "house arrest" that has been introduced in Austria.

The point is that several experts claim the switch from "3G" to "2G" would have a large impact on the infection rates. Which presents governments with a big dilemma. I'm guessing that vaccinating children under the age of 12 without any (individual) medical reason would also help a lot - but is that a more acceptable option?  Or mandatory vaccinations? 

We are running out of options.... and our societies have been taken hostage by a global collective antivax hysteria. People that have received dozens of vaccinations in their childhood to protect them against all kinds of diseases, are now raging against Covid vaccines and are cultivating paranoid conspiracy theories. I cannot believe my eyes and ears.

It's unfortunate, but when tough choices will have to be made it is not unreasonable to place more restrictions on those who choose not to be vaccinated. Not to deny them that freedom of choice, but because the consequences of that choice for others. Some people run significant health risks if they would get infected,  even if they are vaccinated. Others urgently need crucial medical treatments that cannot be given because of the excessive strain on the healthcare system.

One more thing. So when people contract a dangerous and contagious disease,  it is perfectly acceptable to restrict their freedom and place them in quarantine?  But restricting access by the unvaccinated to public social gatherings is an unacceptable violation of their rights?

The important question IMO is this: what level of serious illness is acceptable when the disease goes into epidemic phase? States need to fix that target number and then decide what to do to achieve it.


It's certainly true that if the choice really is between restricting all of society and restricting a group within the whole of society and restricting a geographic region in the society, the choices are difficult. I don't have a developed opinion about the issues, yet, I need more time to think.

I wonder to what extent these liberticide measures in Austria and Germany are designed to protect the unvaccinated against themselves, i.e. a totalitarian paternalistic conception of the role of the state.

[Que]

The important question IMO is this: what level of serious illness is acceptable when the disease goes into epidemic phase? States need to fix that target number and then decide what to do to achieve it.

Did you mean the endemic phase?
I don't think any level of serious ilness that results in hospital admission or long term incapacitation (long Covid) is acceptable if it can be avoided. And it can, by vaccination.

Now, what numbers of hospital/IC admissions (of mostly unvaccinated) are acceptable and would no longer justify general restrictions? Low enough not to block the health care system, I would say. Are we willing to pay for a structural increase of hospital and IC capacity?

But you keep sticking to the UK mantra "we cannot fight the virus, it will be amongst us forever".

The examples of Portugal and Spain prove that you can bring the infection rate down to a level in which it will (locally) die out, as long as a (very) high number of adults gets vaccinated (probably 90% and up). In such a scenario you keep periodically vaccinating those over 12 years and up to prevent a return of the disease, and counter local flare ups with a "track and trace" strategy.

Or we can thow our hands up in the air and keep filling these hospital beds....until everybody is either vaccinated, has gone through the disease or died. But how long will that take? And will a new virus strain makes us go through this entire mess all over again?

[krummholz]

I wonder to what extent these liberticide measures in Austria and Germany are designed to protect the unvaccinated against themselves, i.e. a totalitarian paternalistic conception of the role of the state.

I should think it's more: to protect them from each other.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

I should think it's more: to protect them from each other.

Krummholz,

I read this news today:  "Vermont and New Hampshire saw a 60% and 56% rise in coronavirus cases over the last two weeks, respectively. COVID-related deaths also increased by 52% in Vermont, which saw a new record high for its seven-day count on Saturday. The state now has a rolling average of 369 new daily cases, according to an NBC News analysis of coronavirus data."   

Ironically, I heard about it this morning on one of the morning talk shows in which they talked about Stephen Colbert's suggestion of how to deal with it--which did make me smile.  It starts at about 2:24 minutes in:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1a0TIPfWYfw&list=PLiZxWe0ejyv9AYQeYIixmNtqsyAGJ6F2B&index=2

How are things in your neck of the woods these days?

PD

[SimonNZ]

. I don't have a developed opinion about the issues, yet, I need more time to think.

Then please stop using terms like librticide and totalitarian paternalism. It makes it sound like your mind is closed and you're not thinking about this at all.

[Karl Henning]

Then please stop using terms like librticide and totalitarian paternalism. It makes it sound like your mind is closed and you're not thinking about this at all.

Agitprop patois.

[Mandryka]

Then please stop using terms like librticide and totalitarian paternalism. It makes it sound like your mind is closed and you're not thinking about this at all.

I think you're either seeking to gaslight the participants in the discussion or that you haven't thought about it yourself.  If something is liberticide that's what it is; if something is paternalist and totalitarian, that's what it is.

Where I am still unsure is whether this liberticide measure is morally justifiable, and whether paternal and totalitarian thinking is a justifiable approach for the state to take in these circumstances. But these measures are, I am sure, liberticide and paternalist and totalitarian.

Agitprop patois.

No. Not patois.  And once again I see you're employing a method of arguing which I think is, quite frankly, shameful and contemptable. Deal with the issue rather than trying to sideline, cancel if you will, people who propose ideas which run counter to your prejudices.

[Karl Henning]

I think you're either seeking to gaslight the participants in the discussion or that you haven't thought about it yourself.  If something is liberticide that's what it is; if something is paternalist and totalitarian, that's what it is.

Where I am still unsure is whether this liberticide measure is morally justifiable, and whether paternal and totalitarian thinking is a justifiable approach for the state to take in these circumstances. But these measures are, I am sure, liberticide and paternalist and totalitarian.

No. Not patois.  And once again I see you're employing a method of arguing which I think is, quite frankly, shameful and contemptable. Deal with the issue rather than trying to sideline, cancel if you will, people who propose ideas which run counter to your prejudices.

Are you claiming that "liberticide" is standard English? It isn't. So why did you use it?

[Mandryka]

An old, mad, blind, despised, and dying King;
Princes, the dregs of their dull race, who flow
Through public scorn,—mud from a muddy spring;
Rulers who neither see nor feel nor know,
But leechlike to their fainting country cling
Till they drop, blind in blood, without a blow.
A people starved and stabbed in th' untilled field;
An army, whom liberticide and prey
Makes as a two-edged sword to all who wield;
Golden and sanguine laws which tempt and slay;
Religion Christless, Godless—a book sealed;
A senate, Time's worst statute, unrepealed—
Are graves from which a glorious Phantom may
Burst, to illumine our tempestuous day.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Can we just figure out how to be kind to one another here?  Yes, we have different views, news, experiences, etc., but we're all here for the music first of all.  And there are so many conflicting news sources and info that probably 99% of us don't truly understand what it means and what the best sources are for it?  And even, from what I can see, the experts are not always agreeing.  So, PLEASE, can we figure out how to be kind to one another?

Life is short....just a suggestion. 💔 

PD

[Pohjolas Daughter]

While I sympathize with the sentiment expressed here, I'm not aware of any recent instance of someone being unkind to someone else in this thread.

The last roughly half-dozen comments came across to me as being rather combative.  Plus, from what I recall, earlier ones too.

In any event, my point is that we're all in this together.  And, that we're here because we all care about classical music....and maybe cats too. 

PD