Last Movie You Watched

[Abuelo Igor]

It's magnificently filmed to be sure, but obviously for another time when women were treated non-seriously and as somewhat less than human.

Wow, yet another all-time classic that wouldn't even get past the drawing boards today. Never mind the ground-breaking narrative structure, the all-around artistic quality, the fact that it was made in Japan in the nineteen fifties and set in less enlightened times. It doesn't meet today's standards of political correctness and therefore doesn't deserve its classic status. If we started doing that on a systematic basis, I think school children would be really grateful, because the entire canon of culture would dwindle significantly. That doesn't mean that we cannot be critical of certain attitudes and portrayals, but retroactive censorship is not really my thing.

[milk]

Wow, yet another all-time classic that wouldn't even get past the drawing boards today. Never mind the ground-breaking narrative structure, the all-around artistic quality, the fact that it was made in Japan in the nineteen fifties and set in less enlightened times. It doesn't meet today's standards of political correctness and therefore doesn't deserve its classic status. If we started doing that on a systematic basis, I think schoolboys would be really grateful, because the entire canon of culture would dwindle significantly. That doesn't mean that we cannot be critical of certain attitudes and portrayals, but retroactive censorship is not really my thing.

I sympathize with your sentiment. I don't want anything censored, not even Alex Jones - whom I hate hate hate. But, ironically, nothing is immune from criticism either. This film isn't an objective take on medieval Japanese values. It's sexist from 1951. It could only be conceived of by someone, male, who is quite clueless and careless about rape. That may have been THE attitude of the time, to be sure. I do love Kurosawa, by the way.

[Karl Henning]

It could only be conceived of by someone, male, who is quite clueless and careless about rape.

I think this essentially wrongheaded.  The central action of the movie is the bandit's being on trial, and the rape is one of the charges to which he is made to answer.  Not only is the bandit neither glorified nor exonerated for the deed, the rape is specifically designated as crime.  The wife's shame has practically an entire sub-narrative to itself.  And one of the concluding reflections of the movie is utter despair of human goodness (not, "well, it's all rather a downer, but at least the bandit got himself a piece of nice tail").

To tweeze, out of all that, "a trivialization of rape" does (with all due respect) seem to feed the anti-Liberal "PC-gone-amok" narrative.

One of the first Russian jokes I was told when I was in St Petersburg was about a ladies' sauna which was recently built next to a block of flats.  One of the residents called his Building Committee to complain.

"What's wrong?" they asked, on arriving at the Citizen's flat.

"It's indecent," he protested.  "You can see naked women over the top of the fence."

One member of the Committee looked out the window, and said, "I only see the fence, Comrade."

"Yes, but if you step up onto this chair . . . ."

[Karl Henning]

The theme of Rashomon is:  Everyone lies, for his own reasons.  Each version of the story is told by an individual with his own shortcomings in perspective, and with his own motives for suppressing or refashioning the odd fact.  This is the story which Kurosawa is telling.

To boil that down to [This is a story which] could only be conceived of by someone, male, who is quite clueless and careless about rape, is dreadfully poor reading.

[milk]

I think this essentially wrongheaded.  The central action of the movie is the bandit's being on trial, and the rape is one of the charges to which he is made to answer.  Not only is the bandit neither glorified nor exonerated for the deed, the rape is specifically designated as crime.  The wife's shame has practically an entire sub-narrative to itself.  And one of the concluding reflections of the movie is utter despair of human goodness (not, "well, it's all rather a downer, but at least the bandit got himself a piece of nice tail").

To tweeze, out of all that, "a trivialization of rape" does (with all due respect) seem to feed the anti-Liberal "PC-gone-amok" narrative.

One of the first Russian jokes I was told when I was in St Petersburg was about a ladies' sauna which was recently built next to a block of flats.  One of the residents called his Building Committee to complain.

"What's wrong?" they asked, on arriving at the Citizen's flat.

"It's indecent," he protested.  "You can see naked women over the top of the fence."

One member of the Committee looked out the window, and said, "I only see the fence, Comrade."

"Yes, but if you step up onto this chair . . . ."

When was the last time you saw it? I hadn't seen it for twenty years. I found myself unable to ignore the questions that continually pop up about the meaning and depiction of the rape In Rashomon. It's not easy to tease out what is a representation of the view of medieval Japan and what is the "gaze" of the film. From the standpoint of the medieval story and mores, the bandit's criminality is for having stolen something that is valuable to men and what is the difference between honor and shame for the woman. That's true. One can very well lay this at the doorstep of the historical context. The rape itself is never given any realism, or consideration in itself, for what it is. The Bandit is almost a comic character in Rashomon, certainly the most memorable and really charming part of the film (Mifune is the most talented performer here). I don't think any character's story presented is dismissed out of hand because of the reality of rape. Each is dismissed for different reasons, including the one where she enjoys the rape. Clearly it's self-serving for the bandit but not depicted as implausible because of the horror (which really isn't hinted at, only dishonor after the fact is regrettable). There is no reality really. The inhumanity is doled out equally among the characters, including the woman, because of their actions - nothing specially bad about the rape that exonerates the woman. Watch it again and you'll see the fingerprints of a man from a very sexist society in time and place all over it. Does the very fact that that dehumanization of women was THE view of the time and place (1951) let the film off the hook? Does a critique of the film from the most realistic and humanistic point of view equate to political correctness? I disagree on several fronts here: Rape and its depiction doesn't get immunity from a filmic statute of limitations; it's not the special property of one or another political pov, it's always horrible and immoral; my comments merely critique the representation of woman in a film, the fact that this film is old is neither here nor there. There is nothing politically correct about saying that rape presented in a silly and shallow way is lacking, though this may indeed be a very modern view. Rashomon is the gaze of a man of his time. Fine. This man is not interested in the reality of rape and neither was his audience. Fine. Rashomon doesn't really show how a woman would really look and feel and react and exist having been raped? Yes for me. I don't see anything politically correct about my view. This is not the same as the N-word in Huckleberry Fin which clearly needs lots of context, historical, linguistic, political, to understand and appreciate. Rape itself doesn't change. Let me add: go back and watch this film now. What you'll see is several performances of a rape. None of them care about reality. None of them even hint at it. People have always said: oh well that's not the point of the film. EXACTLY my point!

[milk]

Sorry for my very long-winded response. I think my critique comes down to this: for many years I would have said that Rashomon is a great film that's not intended to really show rape. Rape is a devise in the story, obviously. So, we enjoy this great piece of cinema understanding what it's not intended to do.
However,
Watching this film as a grown up, not a film student, I not only see why someone would have trouble viewing it uncritically, I actually felt uncomfortable the whole way through - not uncomfortable because of what was on screen, but uncomfortable and cringing because of what was left out. Furthermore, it seems fatuous to ignore the reality that only a male society could depict rape without depicting rape.

[Karl Henning]

I watched it afresh two months ago.

[milk]

The theme of Rashomon is:  Everyone lies, for his own reasons.  Each version of the story is told by an individual with his own shortcomings in perspective, and with his own motives for suppressing or refashioning the odd fact.  This is the story which Kurosawa is telling.

To boil that down to [This is a story which] could only be conceived of by someone, male, who is quite clueless and careless about rape, is dreadfully poor reading.

Yes, the philosophical meaning of Rashomon is another way that the film uses rape as a device rather than a reality.
You're not saying my point is untrue, just that it shouldn't be boiled down to this? Seems to me you are not considering my points fairly but rather trying to win an argument. You can disregard this subjective part then. Let's grant that a woman could have made Rashomon. What's changed now about my reading? Nothing. There is still a rape that is not really a rape. There is still the charm and comedy of the bandit. Would anyone make this film, this way, today? Why not? Because of political correctness? Or because rape is taken more seriously and understood better by societies that care and appreciate women's perspectives more? If I'm wrong, then how so? I find it interesting that I stand alone in this interpretation. Maybe I really am wrong. But I'm just not seeing how. Perhaps you can change my mind by pointing out something in the substance of my reading.

[milk]

I'm not saying that this is the only aspect worth thinking about. The moral philosophy remains a part of the film as does its wonderful mise en scene and cinematography. All I'm saying is I cringed throughout the thing. This is a film in which a raped woman is equally to blame for the moral consequences the film presents. I'd say Mifune's charm makes things worse too even as the rape is cringeworthy for its unreality.

[Jaakko Keskinen]

Nope. Couldn't leave this one alone.

I don't need proof, darling. I'm not the one who waltzed in declaring in snobbish definitive tones that Peter Jackson understood nothing and had got it all horribly wrong.

I may have criticized how his adaptations failed to understand Tolkien's work but it was you who started criticizing my CHARACTER.

[SonicMan46]

Currently reading the excellent 50th Anniversary 2018 issue of Bill C. Malone's Country Music USA w/ Tracey E.W. Laird (short bios below) - I've own previous issues of this definitive tome for decades; and Ken Burns & Dayton Ducan are currently in production of Country Music: An American Family Story, a documentary to be released next year - Bill Malone and his book were apparently indispensable guides in the making of this project - so, decided to watch a couple of my favorite 'country films' - don't own a lot but enjoy these two:

Coal Miner's Daughter (1980) w/ Sissy Spacek, Tommy Lee Jones, and Beverly D'Angelo as an excellent Patsy Cline - based on Lynn's autobiography and winner of many awards including a Best Actress Oscar for Sissy Spacek, who did here own singing (with Lynn as her coach).

Tender Mercies (1983) w/ Robert Duvall and Tess Harper; "Duvall, who sang his own songs in the film, drove more than 600 miles throughout the state (Texas), tape recording local accents and playing in country music bands to prepare for the role. (Source)"  Duvall won the Best Actor Oscar for this role.  Dave

BILL C. MALONE - Madison, Wisconsin - Immersed in country music since his birth, Malone has been both a scholar and a performer of the music for decades. On the fortieth anniversary of the publication of Country Music USA in 2008, he received a Lifetime Achievement Award from the Society for American Music. His other books include Don't Get above Your Raisin': Country Music and the Southern Working Class, Southern Music/American Music, and Sing Me Back Home: Southern Roots and Country Music.

TRACEY E. W. LAIRD - Atlanta, Georgia - Laird is the author or editor of four books, including Louisiana Hayride: Radio and Roots Music Along the Red River, Austin City Limits: A History and Austin City Limits: A Monument to Music, the latter coauthored with Brandon W. Laird. She is a professor of music at Agnes Scott College.

   

[Karl Henning]

Tender Mercies (1983) w/ Robert Duvall and Tess Harper; "Duvall, who sang his own songs in the film, drove more than 600 miles throughout the state (Texas), tape recording local accents and playing in country music bands to prepare for the role. (Source)"  Duvall won the Best Actor Oscar for this role.  Dave

Most interesting, Dave!

[SonicMan46]

Most interesting, Dave!

Hi Karl - believe that you would enjoy, and Duvall's singing is really good!  I've seen a LOT of 'country movies' over the years, but own just a half dozen or so (shown and described below in the first quote) - the Songcatcher is a 'hidden gem' for me living in North Carolina; although fictional, the story is loosely based on the life of a musicologist discovering folk music in the mountains of the state - Dave

Crazy Heart (2009) w/ Jeff Bridges, Maggie Gyllenhaal, & Colin Farrell - Bridges does his own singing and won the Best Actor Oscar.

O Brother, Where Art Thou? (2000) - a Coen Brother's film w/ George Clooney, Tim Blake Nelson, John Turturro, John Goodman, & Holly Hunter.

Songcatcher (2000) w/ Janet McTeer, Jane Adams, & Aidan Quinn - loosely base on a true story.

Walk the Line (2005) w/ Joaquin Phoenix as Cash and Reese Witherspoon as June Carter Cast - Best Actress Oscar for her; Phoenix does his own singing.

Songcatcher is a 2000 drama film directed by Maggie Greenwald. It is about a musicologist researching and collecting Appalachian folk music in the mountains of western North Carolina. Although Songcatcher is a fictional film, it is loosely based on the work of Olive Dame Campbell, founder of the John C. Campbell Folk School in Brasstown, North Carolina, and that of the English folk song collector Cecil Sharp, portrayed at the end of the film as professor Cyrus Whittle. (Source)

     

[Ken B]

The theme of Rashomon is:  Everyone lies, for his own reasons.  Each version of the story is told by an individual with his own shortcomings in perspective, and with his own motives for suppressing or refashioning the odd fact.  This is the story which Kurosawa is telling.

To boil that down to [This is a story which] could only be conceived of by someone, male, who is quite clueless and careless about rape, is dreadfully poor reading.

Yes indeed, but not always lies: memories differ, even honest ones. But your points above are well taken too.

[Mahlerian]

I'm not saying that this is the only aspect worth thinking about. The moral philosophy remains a part of the film as does its wonderful mise en scene and cinematography. All I'm saying is I cringed throughout the thing. This is a film in which a raped woman is equally to blame for the moral consequences the film presents. I'd say Mifune's charm makes things worse too even as the rape is cringeworthy for its unreality.

It's true that the film doesn't offer moral clarity, and it's not wrong to feel uneasy about that.  But that multifaceted perspective is also part of what makes it so fascinating.

[Karl Henning]

Yes indeed, but not always lies: memories differ, even honest ones.

Oh, absolutely.  Why I settled on Everyone lies, for his own reasons as a theme for the film, is I thought I remembered a line from the screenplay in which a character dejectedly cries out to that effect.  But, I may be in error 

[North Star]

I'm not saying that this is the only aspect worth thinking about. The moral philosophy remains a part of the film as does its wonderful mise en scene and cinematography. All I'm saying is I cringed throughout the thing. This is a film in which a raped woman is equally to blame for the moral consequences the film presents. I'd say Mifune's charm makes things worse too even as the rape is cringeworthy for its unreality.

I don't think it would be appropriate these days to make it seem as if rapists cannot be charming.

[Karl Henning]

Hi Karl - believe that you would enjoy, and Duvall's singing is really good!

Duvall has been something of a quiet marvel all his career, I think, Dave . . . "Miniature" from The Twilight Zone, True Grit, M*A*S*H, To Kill a Mockingbird, Apocalypse Now, The Godfather . . . .

[milk]

Yes indeed, but not always lies: memories differ, even honest ones. But your points above are well taken too.

Sorry but relativism is NOT the theme of Rashomon. Not at all. It is a popular misreading of the film but need not be so. Rashomon is presented as moral realism. The woodcutter leaves out stealing the dagger for obvious reasons. But why did he not testify accurately as to the other events? Not because of faulty memory or because the film looks to relativize his version of events. It's because of shame: the theme that runs through the film.
I would say that those misunderstanding this haven't understood the point of Rashomon, which is moral.
Critiquing Rashomon for its rape-sensibility doesn't mean it's not a great film for other reasons. Furthermore, analyzing the male gaze of it isn't politically correct, it's just the opposite. No art is immune from critique and every work is open to interpretation and reinterpretation.

[LKB]

Duvall has been something of a quiet marvel all his career, I think, Dave . . . "Miniature" from The Twilight Zone, True Grit, M*A*S*H, To Kill a Mockingbird, Apocalypse Now, The Godfather . . . .

Seconded. I would also add The Apostle, and the episode " The Chameleon " from The Outer Limits .

Respectfully,

LKB