Beethoven Missa Solemnis

[Lilas Pastia]

Salut, Gabriel, ça fait un bail !  .

Well, gentlemen, this is one of the RARE forays I make into contentious territory. As I intimate in my post, I'm not against a HIP version of the Missa, I merely say it hasn't been done well so far. I personally refute the idea that the forces at the composer's disposal ca. 1824 should be taken as a benchmark. There are many indications that composers of the pre-wagnerian concert era longed and pined for big orchestral resources. This was more often than not a mattter of contingencies. Handel and Haydn are known to have basked in the sometimes very large forces at their disposal. Let's not forget that Beethoven's time was a lean one in economic terms. Many Court orchestras were disbanded because of lack of funds, and those that survived were necessarily small in size. Eventually they were integrated in the newly formed State orchestras of the time. If one is to take Beethoven as a forward-looking musician, it's impossible to ignore the direction his music has taken under modern conditions (less orchestras, bigger forces, different instruments). That evolution (and counter-evolution, vide Carlos Kleiber and Osmo Vänskä) is a matter of fact, not conjecture.

Then there is the matter of tempi. The metronome marks are a contentious issue. But the character of a Missa Solemnis ought to point to a certain degree of spaciousness. Just the matter of text articulation by amateur or semi-professional church/court choristers in a church acoustic should make the mush heard in the Kvam recording a lesson on what can and can't be done. As for the preppy, excitable puppy singing heard in the Gardiner, good as it is technically, I consider the idiom thus created totally foreign to Beethoven's - although this is as hypothetical an assertion as Gardiner's concept is. IOW it's his word against mine. But I know what I like and he doesn't 

The Missa that *could be* is still waiting for a recording. Bernard Labadie and Les Violons du Roy would be splendid contenders, with soloists Karina Gauvin, Marie-Nicole Lemieux, and a good Tamino and Osmin to round off the singing staff. One thing that hasn't changed is the capacity for human vocal chords and lungs to emit tones like those one expects to hear in those roles (or, even more to the point, those of a Florestan or Pizzarro). Jochum and Bernstein offer two such versions of that urgent, dramatic POV, but they do so with big forces. One CAN'T say Beethoven would have frowned.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

The Missa that *could be* is still waiting for a recording. Bernard Labadie and Les Violons du Roy would be splendid contenders...

That's a provocative choice and one I heartily agree with. Labadie and his band made a spectacular recording of Mozart's Requiem (on Dorian) so it's logical to assume they'd be a rousing success in the Missa.

Can you gently nudge your compatriots, André?

[Lilas Pastia]

Hi, Don! Believe it or not, I'm actually going to write whoever cares about that prospect that it should be done. Labadie, ATMA, Les Violons du Roy, etc.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Nice! Good luck.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Well, late or not, in his own time, Beethoven was played lean and mean

Who told you that? If you look at Thomas Forrest Kelly's "First Nights," he notes from contemporary accounts that at the concert at which the 9th symphony and three movements of the Missa were first performed in 1824, the orchestral forces were augmented, with doubled winds and probably 80+ orchestral performers. Besides the problem with Gardiner is not so much the size of his forces or his use of original instruments, but his complete inability to shape a musical phrase or to find the drama of the work. Gardiner is almost always so damned polite about it all, with the possibly exception of his alto soloist who seems to try breaking free, especially in the opening of the Agnus Dei. But the two big "interruptions" in the Dona nobis - probably the most climactic points in the entire mass - go for virtually nothing in Gardiner, where with Bernstein/Sony they are hair-raising, especially the second interlude where the trumpets and drums come crashing down with full force as expressions of the terror of war.

[Bulldog]

That's a provocative choice and one I heartily agree with. Labadie and his band made a spectacular recording of Mozart's Requiem (on Dorian) so it's logical to assume they'd be a rousing success in the Missa.

Labadie and his cohorts also made a dreadful recording of the Goldberg Variations.  I'll have to remain skeptical.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Labadie and his cohorts also made a dreadful recording of the Goldberg Variations.  I'll have to remain skeptical.

I don't envy anybody who tries to make a successful orchestra/choral transcription of a keyboard work (and a harpsichord work at that). That kind of thing seems doomed from the start. I know that's something that I, personally, have no interest in.

But do try to get a hold of Labadie's Requiem recording. It's a barn-burner.

[Gurn Blanston]

Who told you that? If you look at Thomas Forrest Kelly's "First Nights," he notes from contemporary accounts that at the concert at which the 9th symphony and three movements of the Missa were first performed in 1824, the orchestral forces were augmented, with doubled winds and probably 80+ orchestral performers. Besides the problem with Gardiner is not so much the size of his forces or his use of original instruments, but his complete inability to shape a musical phrase or to find the drama of the work. Gardiner is almost always so damned polite about it all, with the possibly exception of his alto soloist who seems to try breaking free, especially in the opening of the Agnus Dei. But the two big "interruptions" in the Dona nobis - probably the most climactic points in the entire mass - go for virtually nothing in Gardiner, where with Bernstein/Sony they are hair-raising, especially the second interlude where the trumpets and drums come crashing down with full force as expressions of the terror of war.

Yes, as a favor to the composer, the Friends of Music provided supplemental musicians to pad out the orchestra and chorus at that concert. Thayer doesn't venture a guess as to how many there were, merely that they were "augmented". Although I submit that their purpose was for the symphony rather than the "3 grand hymns" which were played from the Missa (which is what we were talking about). And this exceptional number still didn't approach the size of a modern orchestra and chorus, so implications that they did go for naught. And they certainly didn't represent the norm in performance at that time. Movements towards larger orchestras (huge in France!) didn't really take hold for another 10-20 years. As public concertizing grew into being the standard, everything grew far out of proportion to what you would have heard in Vienna BBD (Before Beethoven's Death).

I have never heard Gardiner's Missa, so that's a miss as far as I'm concerned. The only full performance on period instruments that I've heard is Hanover Band. I also have Sperling's recreation of the very concert you cite, with the New Orchestra, and it is a very nice performance with plenty of musicality, even though there are just the 3 hymns excerpted. I am just as susceptible to drama as the next person, and I am actually capable of enjoying such music both in modern performance and post-Romantic style as well as played by the forces that were current when the music was composed. How fortunate for me.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

How fortunate for me.

Others share in that good fortune.

[Coopmv]

I am actually capable of enjoying such music both in modern performance and post-Romantic style as well as played by the forces that were current when the music was composed. How fortunate for me.

I am the same way.  The quality of a performance has nothing to do with whether the work is performed on modern instruments or on period instruments.  I actually hate the term authentic instruments as it has the connotation that modern instruments provide inauthentic performance.  My attitude extends to such masterpieces as Handel Messiah, Bach Brandenburg Concertos, etc. where my top three favorites always include a version played on modern instruments ...

[Gurn Blanston]

I am the same way.  The quality of a performance has nothing to do with whether the work is performed on modern instruments or on period instruments.  I actually hate the term authentic instruments as it has the connotation that modern instruments provide inauthentic performance.  My attitude extends to such masterpieces as Handel Messiah, Bach Brandenburg Concertos, etc. where my top three favorites always include a version played on modern instruments ...

Well, I don't go all the way back to the Baroque with it, but I understand those who do. I don't, in any case, use the term "Historically Informed Performance" any more (except in my avatar, because it's... HIP ), I always use "period instrument performance" because that's what I will concede it to be. That said, I greatly prefer the sound of period instruments, but that's just my taste. I do, however, dislike a lot of Romantic Era orchestral devices to be applied to Classical Era music, on the stated premise that "that's what Beethoven (Mozart, Haydn etc.) would have done if he had thought of it". That's tough to swallow. Romantic Era music, however, is just fine with it, since that is what it was written for...

[Gurn Blanston]

Others share in that good fortune.

Indeed they do. And others don't...

[(poco) Sforzando]

I have never heard Gardiner's Missa, so that's a miss as far as I'm concerned.

How fortunate for you.

The only full performance on period instruments that I've heard is Hanover Band. I also have Sperling's recreation of the very concert you cite, with the New Orchestra, and it is a very nice performance with plenty of musicality, even though there are just the 3 hymns excerpted. I am just as susceptible to drama as the next person, and I am actually capable of enjoying such music both in modern performance and post-Romantic style as well as played by the forces that were current when the music was composed. How fortunate for me.

Forces, schmorces. I would be far more capable of enjoying the Gardiner performance if it were played and sung better.

[DavidW]

It seems as if all of this Gardiner discussion popped up simply because I said "(such as Gardiner)".  I didn't really mean to use Gardiner as the poster child for all HIPs.  It's simply the first HIP recording that popped into my head that I've heard!

Really, Gurn hasn't even heard Gardiner by his own admission.  Perhaps we could just move right past the Gardiner recording and generalize to HIP recordings a bit more...

[Gurn Blanston]

How fortunate for you.

Forces, schmorces. I would be far more capable of enjoying the Gardiner performance if it were played and sung better.

Well, despite your protestations that you are inclined to like period performances, I can't remember you ever saying you actually liked one. There is always something about it, whether it is the playing (that's it usually) or something else that sticks in your craw which makes it unacceptable. I am rather pleased that I don't know as much about music as you do: it allows me to just sit back and enjoy what I'm listening to, rather than to critically dissect everything looking for something to ruin it for myself.

[Lilas Pastia]

I *seem* to recall (Alzheimer's reprieve  0:))  that I gave a very warm welcome to the Spering recording of Drei Hymnen (from the Missa). Because it was so beautifully performed (meaning: with great musicality). Therein lies the proof of the pudding. Musicality, adherence to the composer's ethos and technically clean outstanding realization will go a long way to rouse my interest - HIP ot not ! I mentioned Labadie, but if Spering were to record the whole work, I'd be mightily interested in the results (provided he made sure to get great soloists).

[Que]

Labadie and his cohorts also made a dreadful recording of the Goldberg Variations.  I'll have to remain skeptical.

There are two possible contenders for my ideal HIP Missa Solemnis (because I haven't seen it yet... ).
Frieder Bernius (on Carus) or Bruno Weil (Analekta). Or maybe Thomas Hengelbrock?

Q

[cosmicj]

There's been one middling comment about the recent Herreweghe Missa solemnis (by DD).  Anyone who has heard it care to make some comments?

[knight66]

I assume this is the performance that is being referred to. Perhaps it depends just what you want from this piece. I believe this performance looks back to Haydn rather than allows the sheer muscle and sinew of the piece to burst out of it. The whole thing is much too civilised.

The choir is well trained, technically excellent, but never sounds like it is breaking a sweat or having to 'try'. So much of this music is about straining for faith, fighting to find the way through. The choir ought not to sound like it is singing Parry, there is nothing polite about this work, it is demanding on so many levels, one of which is physical on the performers....not a mountain, but a range of mountains. It miraculously displays a physicality to the spiritual doubts that thread their way through the work. A great deal is being lost when it all sounds easy.

So, I junked the disc.....but.....lots of people praised it when it was issued. I stick by my views. I did write a long piece on the Missa on the old site, I have not been able to turn it up and I can't be hacked going over the ground in detail again....well, not yet anyway.

Mike

[Coopmv]

This CD is on its way to me from the other side of the pond and will join this LP that has been in my music library for some 25 years ...