Name Your Favored Composer

[sound67]

On the whole, there are musical reasons why so many more people know Strauss than they do "old Jerry."

Whatever you say, Karl, whatever you say. 

Thomas

[sound67]

Such a long (though justifiably) movie, the fact surprises many people (who are not themselves composers), that there's actually so little music (much of it coming back from time to time, and why not). The echo-ey fanfare is very nice;  the march is all right . . . contrasting middle section is a little odd.  A prime example of how the film score is musical material furnished as one component of the movie, and how it is the movie which is the composition.  There's no way in heaven or on earth that "old Jerry's" bits for Patton are 'a composition'.  But for the movie, it does its job strikingly well, indeed.

But since you're own personal (read: subjective) definition of composition is not relevant ...

Thomas

[ezodisy]

A prime example of how the film score is musical material furnished as one component of the movie, and how it is the movie which is the composition. 

very well said. Even obvious, you would think. There is nothing singly important about music in a film, it is just one element of many important ones, and for it to be effective it has to be applied well and mixed in by a talented director. The subject itself is grossly exaggerated. I still don't understand this obsession with film score merit outside of a film, and unfortunately those who advocate it aren't able to explain it  

[sound67]

I looked him up on IMDB, which listed 240 films and TV shows with music composed by Goldsmith, many of which I've seen, only one of which had--for me--a memorable score:  Patton.  I wanted to add Chinatown, because I think the music must have done an excellent job of helping establish the emotional tone of the scenes since the film was so well-crafted in every respect, but I couldn't recall a single theme from the movie.

Don't be ashamed of having a weak memory. 

There are plenty of superb Goldsmith scores which suit their respective movies to a tee and still make for grand listening outside. Planet of the Apes (1968), The Sand Pebbles, Papillon, Tora! Tora! Tora!, Night Passage, Under Fire, Legend, Alien, Islands in the Stream (as mentioned before, Goldsmith's own favorite), Masada, The Mephisto Waltz, The Illustrated Man, Magic, The (First) Great Train Robbery, Poltergeist, The Boys from Brazil, The Secret of Nimh, Star Trek: The Motion Picture, etc.etc. Between the mid 1960s and the mid 1980s (afterwhich his output become more variable) he contributed one memorable score after another, often of dizzying variety, but still immediately recognizable as his work.

Thomas

[Sergeant Rock]

I mean this post here, buried back in the Film Music thread.

Thanks for the clarification, Karl (I read your post before, but I'm old and senile, memory isn't what it used to be   ). Still, I disagree, not with your definition, but wth your conclusion: i.e., that a film score can't be a composition. I would argue, for example, that Old Jerry's five minute "Klingon Battle" from Star Trek: The Motion Picture is every bit a composition, in your definition, as is In the Hall of the Mountain King from that well-known 19th century equivalent of the film score.

Well, actually, I won't argue the point. I love film music, both within films and as standalone compositions. That some don't share my passion, and insist on denigrating film composers and their compositions, bothers me not one whit.  

Sarge

[sound67]

it is just one element of many important ones, and for it to be effective it has to be applied well and mixed in by a talented director.

A supremely naive comment. On many a film that has a great score the director never got even involved.

Thomas

[karlhenning]

Thanks for the clarification, Karl (I read your post before, but I'm old and senile, memory isn't what it used to be   ). Still, I disagree, not with your definition, but wth your conclusion: i.e., that a film score can't be a composition.

Well, that is not my conclusion;  I don't say any such thing, Sarge.  I should have hoped that you see that.  I won't here repeat what I actually said for the dozenth time.

I would argue, for example, that Old Jerry's five minute "Klingon Battle" from Star Trek: The Motion Picture is every bit a composition, in your definition, as is In the Hall of the Mountain King from that well-known 19th century equivalent of the film score.

Perhaps it is;  it would be a five-minute composition, though, which is a different matter to arguing that all the scoring for that movie is a composition (which remark I hope is clearly related to my argument).

Well, actually, I won't argue the point. I love film music, both within films and as standalone compositions.

I don't think anyone would presume to argue with your right to like them as much as you wish, in what ways you may wish.  I like to listen to albums by The Police, but you don't find me on any soapboax insisting that Regatta de Blanc is a composition, in the same way as, and of equal stature to, a Bruckner symphony.

That some don't share my passion, and insist on denigrating film composers and their compositions, bothers me not one whit.

If taking artistic and philosophic exception to repeated assertions that Jerry Goldsmith is as great a composer as Richard Strauss, is "denigrating film composers," all right, I denigrate film composers.  I don't see it as such, but perhaps this is the new my-way-or-the-highway mentality . . . .

[ezodisy]

A supremely naive comment. On many a film that has a great score the director never got even involved.

Thomas

Well this is something new. Are you implying that you might actually try to defend your position? If so, please go ahead and mention the great films (not the great scores -- why is it so hard for you to understand this?) where the directors have not been involved in setting the music of their films.

[sound67]

Well this is something new. Are you implying that you might actually try to defend your position?

I explained this in the film music thread with reference to how the studio system worked, and sometimes still does.

Thomas

[ezodisy]

I explained this in the film music thread with reference to how the studio system worked, and sometimes still does.

Thomas

Ah, you mean how the "suits" decide all the music that goes into a film, and where it goes, and how loud it should be, and whether anyone should notice it at all? Another great statement on your part. You are really doing the world of film music proud 

[DavidRoss]

I like to listen to albums by The Police, but you don't find me on any soapboax insisting that Regatta de Blanc is a composition, in the same way as, and of equal stature to, a Bruckner symphony.

But what about De Do Do Do, De Da Da Da?

[sound67]

Ah, you mean how the "suits" decide all the music that goes into a film, and where it goes, and how loud it should be, and whether anyone should notice it at all? Another great statement on your part. You are really doing the world of film music proud 

Nope. You really don't know anything, a complete poop.

Thomas

[karlhenning]

But what about De Do Do Do, De Da Da Da?

Don't think me unkind . . . .

[sound67]

If taking artistic and philosophic exception to repeated assertions that Jerry Goldsmith is as great a composer as Richard Strauss

There are no such assertions. They were compared only in the degree of achievement in their own respective fields of composition.

That's not the same as saying "a is as great as b, period". Funny how you can't see that.

Let's stick to Webster then. 

Thomas

[karlhenning]

And it's ephemeral.

tommy boy is well read (on film composers) but not well listened, if he spent more time focusing on the heavier & truer stuff . . . .

I agree that most of the stuff written for film is ephemeral;  and part of it is a matter of the musical inclinations/abilities of those doing the scoring, part of it, the nature of matching supply to high demand.

You're doing Thos injustice here, James.  He has certainly listened to a lot of the literature.  There are other considerations at work in his (as I see it) over-valuation of most of that ephemerata;  but it is not any question of ignorance of the literature.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Signifying nothing ...

Thomas

Contents removed due to personal remarks. As per explanation in the listening thread, where personal remarks are made, the post will be removed rather than edited.

Knight

[ezodisy]

There are other considerations at work in his (as I see it) over-valuation of most of that ephemerata; 

An over-valuation to such a gross extent is just ignorance though. The fact that there is no defence of this over-valuation is even worse.

[Don]

I have to admit that I rarely pay any attention to the identification of the composer of a film that I'm watching; that's because I just view the music within its film context.

I do feel that film music infrequently holds up well on its own steam, and there's no reason why it would be otherwise.  I remember being very impressed with the film music for "Out of Africa", and I even enjoyed listening to it alone for a few months after watching the movie.  However, as time went on and my memory of the movie became more vague, my enjoyment of the score took a nosedive.

[Don]

And Don you should know being a big Bach fan yourself...nothing matches that in terms of deep meaning, mystery and spiritual sustenance/nourishment over time, and which, seems to me (and many other people) becomes even more & more rewarding as you mature and time goes on...

I feel the same.

[drogulus]

Flawed logic again. Even if a concept works, or seems to work (sorry, I don't watch boxing movies), it doesn't follow that another concept might not have worked even better.

Thomas

    By this reasoning when would a filmmaker ever stop looking for a better and yet better score, regardless of whether it's composed for the film or not? It's an idle speculation whether Scorsese or Beethoven or Picasso or anyone else could have made a better choice in this context. Scorsese made sound decisions for his "boxing" film (is that an aesthetic category?), and arguments about better choices are pointless. In general the decision to use concert music is justified by the results and nothing else can be used to invalidate it. If it can't be made to work, because the music carries associations that conflict with rather than support the filmmakers choices, it's on that point and not some general "you can't do this" point that the decision can be shown to be unwise.

     Edit: The paradigmatic example of a stupid choice was the decision in the film Alien to abandon the Goldsmith score for the "happy ending" of Hanson's Romantic Symphony. It wasn't wrong because it was concert music, or Hanson. It was wrong because he had good and useful music expressly written for the film and instead he used the Hanson for an unworthy and stupid reason, and it backfired. A very creepy and effective horror/sci fi film was undermined, fortunately at the very end so the damage was minimal. Why, oh, why would there not be a directors cut available with the Goldsmith put back? I guess that's the reason: Directors cut.