Im sure he speaks lots of nonsense....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUf_LHJ2cxQ&feature=related
Are you?
Quote from: knight on February 19, 2008, 08:45:28 AM
Are you?
Listen to the interview and you tell me ... he sticks up to the "palestinians" like he is some kind of an Arab, while at the same time he blames Israel for problems, I'm sure that you didnt forget that he still is an Israeli citizen and a Jew.
So from the very little German that I understand I hear lots of sticking up to the arabs, and for me that's "Nonsense", Knight.
Quote from: knight on February 19, 2008, 08:45:28 AM
Are you?
He wouldn't be Saul if he wouldn't judge things without even speaking the language.
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 08:48:07 AM
Listen to the interview and you tell me ... he sticks up to the "palestinians" like he is some kind of an Arab, while at the same time he blames Israel for problems, I'm sure that you didnt forget that he still is an Israeli citizen and a Jew.
So from the very little German that I understand I hear lots of sticking up to the arabs, and for me that's "Nonsense", Knight.
You clearly need to learn more German, Saul. You haven't the faintest clue.
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 08:39:57 AM
Im sure he speaks lots of nonsense....
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 08:48:07 AM
So from the very little German that I understand ...
You might consider learning more German before making such rash assumptions.
--Bruce
Quote from: O Mensch on February 19, 2008, 08:51:30 AM
He wouldn't be Saul if he wouldn't judge things without even speaking the language.
You clearly need to learn more German, Saul. You haven't the faintest clue.
He says how these "palestinians" are cultured and they play the cello and the piano....
Well, he calls the people who murder his people and elected a terrorist organization to lead them as "cultured". Doesnt this sound delusional?
Then he asks him about playing Wagner in Israel and he says that he had thousands listening to him and it wasnt a big problem, and that the objection for perfroming his music was political , which was not the case, he good a huge opposition trying to perform Wagner in Israel.
He also asks him about trying to use music as a political tool ....and he answered that this mutual orchestra doesnt function as an orchestra that performs "good music" but its function is to enlighten the ignorant, and that he uses music as an educational tool...and he says that he and the "intellectual' edward said are a part of this project.
He is also saying that when playing music together there are no check points for arabs and there are no israeli soldiers.
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 09:10:49 AM
He says how these "palestinians" are cultured and they play the cello and the piano....
Well, he calls the people who murder his people and elected a terrorist organization to lead them as "cultured". Doesnt this sound delusional?
Then he asks him about playing Wagner in Israel and he says that he had thousands listening to him and it wasnt a big problem, and that the objection for perfroming his music was political , which was not the case, he good a huge opposition trying to perform Wagner in Israel.
He also asks him about trying to use music as a political tool ....and he answered that this mutual orchestra doesnt function as an orchestra that performs "good music" but its function is to enlighten the ignorant, and that he uses music as an educational tool...and he says that he and the "intellectual' edward said are a part of this project.
He is also saying that when playing music together there is no check points for arabs and there are no israeli soldiers.
I am no expert on the Israeli constitution, but I was not aware that there was a duty for all Israeli citizens to despise their Arab neighbors and wish them ill, whether or not they've done anything to deserve it. While I am not an Old Testament scholar, I do not recall that there is a mandate for all Jews to hope earnestly for the annihilation, or at least the degradation, of their enemies. If Mr. Barenboim wants to have a 20th-century viewpoint on the matter, and take a standpoint that allows for shades of gray, as opposed to black and white, then that's his business. Also, you've no proof that anyone in the West-Eastern Divan Orchestra has committed any violence against any Israeli citizen. If membership in the ethnic group alone is an unpardonable sin, then your rhetoric has much in common with that of Herr Wagner and his ilk.
To be entirely fair, the issues with Wagner in Israel are
entirely political, since they find their root in his writings and take water from the fact that a regime led by a man born after Wagner died used and abused Wagner's music to support their murderous and racist ends.
Nice try, though, Saul. You're going to be a really competent polemicist someday, unless transcribing Abba songs gets in the way.
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 09:10:49 AM
He says how these "palestinians" are cultured and they play the cello and the piano....
Well, he calls the people who murder his people and elected a terrorist organization to lead them as "cultured". Doesnt this sound delusional?
No, what is delusional is your inability to distinguish between individuals - the cellist vs. the suicide bomber - due to their common involuntary membership in the same ethnic group.
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 09:10:49 AM
Then he asks him about playing Wagner in Israel and he says that he had thousands listening to him and it wasnt a big problem, and that the objection for perfroming his music was political , which was not the case, he good a huge opposition trying to perform Wagner in Israel.
Yes, and that was a political opposition. He didn't force anyone to listen to Wagner against their will. Anyone who didn't want to was free to leave. The larger portion of the audience stayed to listen. Why should a minority deprive a majority of music they'd like to hear, if the minority isn't being forced to listen?
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 09:10:49 AM
He also asks him about trying to use music as a political tool ....and he answered that this mutual orchestra doesnt function as an orchestra that performs "good music" but its function is to enlighten the ignorant, and that he uses music as an educational tool...and he says that he and the "intellectual' edward said are a part of this project.
Sorry, you misunderstood that. He said that the orchestra is mischaracterized as an orchestra for peace. That it is instead an orchestra against ignorance, because it helps individuals from enemy groups cooperate as musicians and recognize each other as human beings instead of faceless enemies. You could use some of that education yourself. Afraid your piano playing won't cut it though.
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 09:10:49 AM
He is also saying that when playing music together there is no check points for arabs and there are no israeli soldiers.
No, that wasn't what he was saying. He was saying that when you're making music together, you have to listen to each other and it becomes irrelevant for the purpose of musicmaking whether you are a Palestinian who went throuagh a checkpoint to get to rehearsal or whether you're an Israeli soldier.
Quote from: O Mensch on February 19, 2008, 09:22:15 AM
No, what is delusional is your inability to distinguish between individuals - the cellist vs. the suicide bomber - due to their common involuntary membership in the same ethnic group.
Yes, and that was a political opposition. He didn't force anyone to listen to Wagner against their will. Anyone who didn't want to was free to leave. The larger portion of the audience stayed to listen. Why should a minority deprive a majority of music they'd like to hear, if the minority isn't being forced to listen?
Sorry, you misunderstood that. He said that the orchestra is mischaracterized as an orchestra for peace. That it is instead an orchestra against ignorance, because it helps individuals from enemy groups cooperate as musicians and recognize each other as human beings instead of faceless enemies. You could use some of that education yourself. Afraid your piano playing won't cut it though.
No, that wasn't what he was saying. He was saying that when you're making music together, you have to listen to each other and it becomes irrelevant for the purpose of musicmaking whether you are a Palestinian who went throuagh a checkpoint to get to rehearsal or whether you're an Israeli soldier.
LoL , But you said that I had no clue...
Well you can add that to all the other instances that you were wrong.
And try to keep it civil and dont turn it personal, I was talking about Barenboim and not about you...
By all accounts, his recent complete Beethoven Sonatas in London were spectacular. It is nice that politics have not interfered with his musicianship. :-*
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 09:26:03 AM
LoL , But you said that I had no clue...
Well you can add that to all the other instances that you were wrong.
And try to keep it civil and dont turn it personal, I was talking about Barenboim and not about you...
Then you can, at least, talk about Barenboim and respond to the five or six really excellent points O Mensch brings to the front.
Quote from: BorisG on February 19, 2008, 09:27:26 AM
By all accounts, his recent complete Beethoven Sonatas in London were spectacular. It is nice that politics have not interfered with his musicianship. :-*
Love his Brahms and Beethoven sonatas but hate his Mendelssohn's Songs without words.
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 09:26:03 AM
LoL , But you said that I had no clue...
Errm... yes. And what makes you think that you did have a clue? I have shown how everything you said was based on a complete misunderstanding of what he was saying.
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 09:29:06 AM
Love his Brahms and Beethoven sonatas but hate his Mendelssohn's Songs without words.
I love his Mendelssohn actually. He gets the "Lieder" aspect like no other, having accompanied so many great Lieder singers. He can make the wordless vocal line really sing, breathe and sigh. It is especially interesting in the two or three songs that Mendelssohn marks as "duets" where there are two "vocal" lines, where Barenboim gives each a character of its own.
Quote from: O Mensch on February 19, 2008, 09:32:00 AM
Errm... yes. And what makes you think that you did have a clue? I have shown how everything you said was based on a complete misunderstanding of what he was saying.
I love his Mendelssohn actually. He gets the "Lieder" aspect like no other, having accompanied so many great Lieder singers. He can make the wordless vocal line really sing, breathe and sigh. It is especially interesting in the two or three songs that Mendelssohn marks as "duets" where there are two "vocal" lines, where Barenboim gives each a character of its own.
I think that I explained very clearly some of the points that Barenboim made in German , even though it wasnt a word by word translation I was able to get some "clue' as to what he was saying, but you on the other hand said that "I had no clue" , so dont speak nonsense, clearly your accusation was baseless.
And Barenboim's Mendelssohn is the worst ever. He has no idea what he is doing in the duetto for instance and he just flows through the songs without that Mendelssohnian charm and elegance that needs to be brought out everytime one plays Mendelssohn. You should listen to Benjamin Frith to understand what I'm talking about.
And listening to Andre Watts playing Mendelssohn's concerto will give you some Idea as to what I mean by Mendelssohnian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVsiAtKeMEQ
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 09:37:21 AM
I think that I explained very clearly some of the points that Barenboim made in German , even though it wasnt a word by word translation I was able to get some "clue' as to what he was saying, but you on the other hand said that "I had no clue" , so dont speak nonsense, clearly your accusation was baseless.
I don't think, in this case, 'say' means what you think it means. There is a literal interpretation, and then there is a content-based interpretation.
QuoteAnd Barenboim's Mendelssohn is the worst ever. He has no idea what he is doing in the duetto for instance and he just flows through the songs without that Mendelssohnian charm and elegance that needs to be brought out everytime one plays Mendelssohn. You should listen to Benjamin Frith to understand what I'm talking about.
You clearly haven't heard my Mendelssohn. It's awful. If I knew how to play the piano, it might be better, but as it is, it's just off-key rhythmic pounding of a keyboard.
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 09:37:21 AM
I think that I explained very clearly some of the points that Barenboim made in German , even though it wasnt a word by word translation I was able to get some "clue' as to what he was saying, but you on the other hand said that "I had no clue" , so dont speak nonsense, clearly your accusation was baseless.
No, you didn't "explain very clearly" anything. You caught a few words and from that deduced what you assumed he said, based on your a priori hostility toward the man. It's not just that it "wasn't a word by word translation", your impression of what Barenboim said was completely wrong. Making completely wrong points qualifies as "nonsense" in my book.
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 09:37:21 AM
And Barenboim's Mendelssohn is the worst ever. He has no idea what he is doing in the duetto for instance and he just flows through the songs without that Mendelssohnian charm and elegance that needs to be brought out everytime one plays Mendelssohn. You should listen to Benjamin Frith to understand what I'm talking about.
Yes, exaggerated superlatives certainly help you make your case and don't make you sound shrill at all. I don't know anyone by the name of Benjamin Frith, but in any case I prefer to look at the
score to see whether someone's interpretation makes sense, thank you.
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 08:48:07 AM
he sticks up to the "palestinians" like he is some kind of an Arab, while at the same time he blames Israel for problems, I'm sure that you didnt forget that he still is an Israeli citizen and a Jew.
Jets!! Sharks!!!! :-X
Quote from: O Mensch on February 19, 2008, 09:44:10 AM
No, you didn't "explain very clearly" anything. You caught a few words and from that deduced what you assumed he said, based on your a priori hostility toward the man. It's not just that it "wasn't a word by word translation", your impression of what Barenboim said was completely wrong. Making completely wrong points qualifies as "nonsense" in my book.
Yes, exaggerated superlatives certainly help you make your case and don't make you sound shrill at all. I don't know anyone by the name of Benjamin Frith, but in any case I prefer to look at the score to see whether someone's interpretation makes sense, thank you.
Didnt he say that "I had no clue"...?
What "clue" means?
Anyways, listen to Watts and youll see what I mean...
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 09:46:08 AM
Didnt he say that "I had no clue"...?
What "clue" means?
You misread the clues. So you haven't got a clue, as the clues were insufficient to help you understand, due to your lack of German-speaking capability.
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 09:46:08 AM
What "clue" means?
I don't know what to say to this one.
Quote from: Ephemerid on February 19, 2008, 09:45:16 AM
Jets!! Sharks!!!! :-X
I know. Saul seems like the sort that gets violently angry whenever Paul Simon's "Kodachrome" comes on the radio.
Quote from: O Mensch on February 19, 2008, 09:50:09 AM
You misread the clues. So you haven't got a clue, as the clues were insufficient to help you understand, due to your lack of German-speaking capability.
Let's not put the cart in front of the horse, that "What 'clue' means?" bit has me worried about English. German can wait. Due diligence and all that.
Quote from: O Mensch on February 19, 2008, 09:50:09 AM
You misread the clues. So you haven't got a clue, as the clues were insufficient to help you understand, due to your lack of German-speaking capability.
Ok in you little fantasy world you are "correct".
But in the real world you clearly made a baseless accusation.
No need to be so angry about been wrong, grow up, big deal so you said something wrong, why be upset about it?
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 09:52:12 AM
Ok in you little fantasy world you are "correct".
But in the real world you clearly made a baseless accusation.
No need to be so angry about been wrong, grow up, big deal so you said something wrong, why be upset about it?
As an impartial observer of that particular vein of this 'discussion,' I am not so sure his accusations were ''baseless." Indeed, I am becoming quite convinced of the opposite.
Well, he has a right to his opinion of course, but sometimes I think he is a little onesided....
Quote from: PSmith08 on February 19, 2008, 09:54:54 AM
As an impartial observer of that particular vein of this 'discussion,' I am not so sure his accusations were ''baseless." Indeed, I am becoming quite convinced of the opposite.
We got your point already a few times, I think its enough... lol
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 09:52:12 AM
Ok in you little fantasy world you are "correct".
But in the real world you clearly made a baseless accusation.
No need to be so angry about been wrong, grow up, big deal so you said something wrong, why be upset about it?
Saul, let's step away for the moment from the use of the word "clue" which seems to be causing you aggravation.
You said:
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 09:10:49 AM
He says how these "palestinians" are cultured and they play the cello and the piano....
Well, he calls the people who murder his people and elected a terrorist organization to lead them as "cultured". Doesnt this sound delusional?
Then he asks him about playing Wagner in Israel and he says that he had thousands listening to him and it wasnt a big problem, and that the objection for perfroming his music was political , which was not the case, he good a huge opposition trying to perform Wagner in Israel.
He also asks him about trying to use music as a political tool ....and he answered that this mutual orchestra doesnt function as an orchestra that performs "good music" but its function is to enlighten the ignorant, and that he uses music as an educational tool...and he says that he and the "intellectual' edward said are a part of this project.
He is also saying that when playing music together there are no check points for arabs and there are no israeli soldiers.
I have shown in my response above (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,6109.msg145683.html#msg145683) how each and every one of those statements is incorrect and based on your political hostility of Barenboim and your insufficient understanding of German. You have not said anything subsequent to that which would dispute my corrections of your totally wrong summary of the interview. OK? Are you with me so far? OK, now,
figuratively speaking, in English we describe an ignorant person as "not having a clue". The fact that you recognized a few German words here and there - but nonetheless put them in a completely spurious context with each other - might mean that you used some "clues" to make your statements, but it doesn't mean that you have a clue, in the figurative sense that "having a clue" is employed in the English language. Your statements were uninformed and objectively wrong. Whether you agree with Barenboim or not, your summary was factually completely incorrect. In other words, you didn't understand at all what Barenboim said.
Quote from: O Mensch on February 19, 2008, 10:25:17 AM
Saul, let's step away for the moment from the use of the word "clue" which seems to be causing you aggravation.
You said:
I have shown in my response above (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,6109.msg145683.html#msg145683) how each and every one of those statements is incorrect and based on your political hostility of Barenboim and your insufficient understanding of German. You have not said anything subsequent to that which would dispute my corrections of your totally wrong summary of the interview. OK? Are you with me so far? OK, now, figuratively speaking, in English we describe an ignorant person as "not having a clue". The fact that you recognized a few German words here and there - but nonetheless put them in a completely spurious context with each other - might mean that you used some "clues" to make your statements, but it doesn't mean that you have a clue, in the figurative sense that "having a clue" is employed in the English language. Your statements were uninformed and objectively wrong. Whether you agree with Barenboim or not, your summary was factually completely incorrect. In other words, you didn't understand at all what Barenboim said.
LOL
You dont make any sense.....
I did say that I know very little German but I did understand some words and was able to understand a few comments by Barenboim, you on the other hand said that I "had no clue".
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 10:28:13 AM
LOL
You dont make any sense.....
I did say that I know very little German but I did understand some words and was able to understand a few comments by Barenboim, you on the other hand said that I "had no clue".
Saul, I'm glad you're easily amused. Apart from not understanding German (note that "understanding" and knowing the meaning of a few words are something different) you seem to be having trouble with English as well now. Reread also the underlined bit in my post. It's only two words. You should be able to handle it.
Quote from: O Mensch on February 19, 2008, 10:31:25 AM
Saul, I'm glad you're easily amused. Apart from not understanding German (note that "understanding" and knowing the meaning of a few words are something different) you seem to be having trouble with English as well now. Reread also the underlined bit in my post. It's only two words. You should be able to handle it.
And now its English?
Im sure youre fluent in Hebrew and Georgian yourself.... ;D
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 10:59:11 AM
And now its English?
Im sure youre fluent in Hebrew and Georgian yourself.... ;D
Apostrophes, apostrophes . . . .
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 10:59:11 AM
And now its English?
Im sure youre fluent in Hebrew and Georgian yourself.... ;D
No, which is why I don't go around accusing speakers of those languages of saying things they didn't say. BTW, in English "its" is the genitive of "it", whereas you meant to use "it's", which is the contraction of "it is".
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 10:20:15 AM
We got your point already a few times, I think its enough... lol
I somehow doubt that. I would like, too, to iterate my request that you actually engage with O Mensch's comments, as opposed to saying that he misspoke. Indeed, if you had merely responded to his comments, we could have all been spared the sight of the English language knocked around like a cheap coat, with even worse outrages visited upon German.
I'll say it straight: I want to hear your response to O Mensch's points. I do not care about your response to his way of making them, nor am I interested in your interpretations of his non-textual senses. You started this one, and I - for one - would like to see you finish it.
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 10:59:11 AM
And now its English?
Im sure youre fluent in Hebrew and Georgian yourself.... ;D
Let us pray that Hebrew and Georgian don't suffer as much or as long as English and German.
Quote from: O Mensch on February 19, 2008, 11:01:34 AM
No, which is why I don't go around accusing speakers of those languages of saying things they didn't say. BTW, in English "its" is the genitive of "it", whereas you meant to use "it's", which is the contraction of "it is".
He did say it.
Listen again, I'm sure you can understand your own languege.
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 11:32:40 AM
He did say it.
Listen again, I'm sure you can understand your own languege.
Once again, 'say' has two or three discrete meanings (senses) in the English language. One of those is a literal sense, a second is a figurative sense, and the third is an idiomatic sense. I somehow doubt that you have a solid-enough grasp of German idiom to approximate a grasp of what Barenboim was saying, though you might be able to reach for what he said.
In any event, may I take it that you have admitted that your substantive critique of Barenboim was a non-starter?
Quote from: O Mensch on February 19, 2008, 11:36:45 AM
Say what?
Don't get him started again, please. I'm half-tempted to send him an Amazon gift card, so he can buy a copy of Fowler's
Modern English Usage. I won't because I am noted for my parsimony, but the thought has crossed my mind.
And it is the thought that counts.
Mike
Even if you have it your way and we accept that you correctly interpreted what he said:
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 09:10:49 AM
He says how these "palestinians" are cultured and they play the cello and the piano....
Are you saying that there are no Palestinians who play the cello and the piano? or that, say, Marcel Khalife or Mona Hatoum are not an artists because they are Palestinians?
Quote
Then he asks him about playing Wagner in Israel and he says that he had thousands listening to him and it wasnt a big problem, and that the objection for perfroming his music was political , which was not the case, he good a huge opposition trying to perform Wagner in Israel.
I don't understand your statement here. SO he says that the objection to him playing Wagner was political and you are saying that is not the case, there was a huge opposition against trying to perform Wagner in Israel? Aren't you both saying the same thing here ???
Or do you mean there was a huge musical opposition in Israel by the critics on the grounds that Wagner's music is horrible and good people of Israel should not be subject to such horrific music ???
Quote
He is also saying that when playing music together there are no check points for arabs and there are no israeli soldiers.
He says he is trying to promote peace and understanding right? So there should be check points for musicians who could blow themselves up anytime, and soldiers with their Uzis standing guard around the stage?
Just listened to the interview with Barenboim. O Mensch did it justice.
Big waste of time reading this. Barenboim isn't a anti Semite...cool. Saul is annoying. O Mensch writes too much, which is no flaw at all because his writing is clear.
I'm going to listen to something Barenboim.
He really impressed me with this interpretation of Beethovens Moonlight Sonata.
Really well done, moving performance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E10K73GvCKU&feature=related
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 04:55:15 PM
He really impressed me with this interpretation of Beethovens Moonlight Sonata.
Really well done, moving performance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E10K73GvCKU&feature=related
You should get the complete DVD set. It's worth the money. I received it for Christmas.
Quote from: O Mensch on February 19, 2008, 05:09:40 PM
You should get the complete DVD set. It's worth the money. I received it for Christmas.
Good idea.
I really think that he plays this movement really well. Though the third movement I think that Horowitz did a better job.
Horowitz Moonlight sonata third movement:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUoI8nHeuJk
The same movement by Barenboim:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJeD8ckihN8
There is some power and balance in Horowtiz's interpretation that is of higher quality then the Barenboim interpretation...
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 05:22:25 PM
There is some power and balance in Horowtiz's interpretation that is of higher quality then the Barenboim interpretation...
*Than*, Saul, *than*, not "then". We already know you don't know German, but that's OK, but you should at least know the language of the place you are living in.
Quote from: PSmith08 on February 19, 2008, 09:18:30 AM
While I am not an Old Testament scholar, I do not recall that there is a mandate for all Jews to hope earnestly for the annihilation, or at least the degradation, of their enemies.
There is, actually.
Quote from: O Mensch on February 19, 2008, 10:31:25 AM
Apart from not understanding German (note that "understanding" and knowing the meaning of a few words are something different) you seem to be having trouble with English as well now.
Now?
Just watched the interview. The key statement is "Dieses Orchester steht da, um gegen die Ignoranz zu kämpfen", which means "this orchestra is there to fight against ignorance". Saul probably didn't understand that, or maybe he actually did and saw himself under attack as the ambassador of ignorance he is. A lot of people support ignorance because they think it furthers their own little causes but they don't see that everyone pays a big price for that.
I would also like to see Saul reply specifically to the points that O Mensch made. That would be an actual discussion then. Haha, as if that would ever happen...
Quote from: O Mensch on February 19, 2008, 09:22:15 AM
No, what is delusional is your inability to distinguish between individuals - the cellist vs. the suicide bomber - due to their common involuntary membership in the same ethnic group.
Yes, and that was a political opposition. He didn't force anyone to listen to Wagner against their will. Anyone who didn't want to was free to leave. The larger portion of the audience stayed to listen. Why should a minority deprive a majority of music they'd like to hear, if the minority isn't being forced to listen?
Sorry, you misunderstood that. He said that the orchestra is mischaracterized as an orchestra for peace. That it is instead an orchestra against ignorance, because it helps individuals from enemy groups cooperate as musicians and recognize each other as human beings instead of faceless enemies. You could use some of that education yourself. Afraid your piano playing won't cut it though.
No, that wasn't what he was saying. He was saying that when you're making music together, you have to listen to each other and it becomes irrelevant for the purpose of musicmaking whether you are a Palestinian who went throuagh a checkpoint to get to rehearsal or whether you're an Israeli soldier.
Let me spill the beans for you so you might get it this time.
First of all, this Jewish/Israeli Conductor is giving out these interviews on German television, a nation that was responsible for the murder of 6 million innocent men women and children ( a million children) of his people just some 60 years ago. You might of expected him to converse about how terrible the Germans were to his people and what he as a musician and as a Jew can do to reconnect German citizens to their history and the crimes of their fathers so they wouldnt ever do these evil crimes again.
But instead of doing that, he is trying to "build bridges" by bringing the sworn enemies of the Jewish people to sit down with Jewish musicians and play music. One can say that there is nothing wrong with that, and that it might count as a good gesture or endeavor, for why would it be wrong to take a few musicians from 'Hitler's youth' and sit them together with Jewish musicians and play together some Wagner?
How bad can it be right?
But when the element of Barenboim's constant bombardment of Israel and how Israel is to blame for the derailment of the so called 'War process' and his outspoken hostility to Israel in general then the entire validity and virtue of his project comes to question.
Why is he investing so much time criticizing Israel when he perfectly knows (I hope he knows) that the people he is trying to help (Palestinians) have willfully elected a vehemently anti-Semitic organization into power ?
What is the exact difference between the Hamas suicide bomber who murdered innocent people and the one who elected his dispatchers into office? Can you please enlighten us O Mench with your wit and inform us ?
It is extremely arrogant on his part just because he is a great musician and has many fans , that doesn't give him any right to take up the position of "ambassador of peace" . No one has appointed him to this position, and frankly he cant put himself into this position. He is not a politician, nor a military official. Therefore been a famous musician is not a free ticket to become a politician. And if you had listened carefully, the interviewer asked him about using music as a political tool and to be sure, that's exactly what Barenboim is doing, he is using the power that he has from been a famous musician to try to dictate politics while at the same time leaving a trail of accusations and criticism at Israel.
I truly believe that Barenboim's motive stems from a candid good will , to make this world a better place, but the way he is trying to achieve it is completely wrong and could even be criminal. His delusional behavior stems from his shocking ignorance of his Jewish religious heritage and history. His pathological dismissal of Arab barbarism and sadism towards Israel even before the creation of the State of Israel bars him from been a well informed and a balanced representative for Israel. What remains here is that he is a representative of the Palestinians and not of the Jewish people. Therefore, I asked and rightfully so, why does he conduct himself this way?
Why does he think that he represents any Jew? He doesn't represent me or any other Jew living anywhere. He might represent himself and that's his right but he doesn't speak for the Jews at all. He also doesn't represent Jewish acceptance of Wagner's music. He might love Wagner, but Jews don't , and they have a good reason.
Now , you're telling me hey Saul! Can't you distinguish between the Nazi SS murderer and the Violin playing German citizen who lives in the mountains of Bavaria?
No I do not see any difference. As long as that German violinist doesn't separate himself from Nazi ideology and barbarism and as long as he casts his vote for this evil regime, then I don't see any difference because the SS German murderer is a messenger of those who put him into office.
You might argue that the German violinist didn't know that this Nazi government will become so evil.
To that I will answer that, when now he knows, he should separate himself from this regime and try to resist it any way he can.
These Palestinians musicians are not living in a high jacked territory. They had democratically voted in a government in power that openly calls for the murder of the Jewish people, of innocent Jewish men women and children, just like the Germans did some 60 years ago. Therefore as long as these musicians grant legitimacy to hamas and Fatah, they are just as bad as the suicide bombers and playing the piano or cello doesn't cover this fact.
And last but not least , one would have thought that Barenboim in his delusional naïve and ridiculous attempt to achieve peace through these actions, would have chosen a legitimate decent and honorable person as a partner, for two are better then one as they say. But instead of that honorable person, Barenboim chose the famous anti Semitic "Professor" Edward Said, who by the way traveled all the way to Lebanon in order to hurle stones (with the intention to kill) at Israeli soldiers. Very balanced choice right?
I mean who do you pick as a partner if you want to show the world that you mean honesty, Balance and trust ?
Someone that his photos of throwing stones at Israeli soldiers were circled all around the world for billions to see?
Was that a good choice?
Of course not and for this answer one doesn't need translators and interpreters , for it is clear as the sun shines on a bright day and as the moon glows on a clear blue night.
"the sworn enemies of the Jewish people"?
+++++
"Why does he think that he represents any Jew? He doesn't represent me or any other Jew living anywhere. He might represent himself and that's his right but he doesn't speak for the Jews at all. He also doesn't represent Jewish acceptance of Wagner's music. He might love Wagner, but Jews don't , and they have a good reason."
Is it really this black and white? Oh, were life really as clear cut & as simple as how you see it...
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 08:58:13 PM
,They had democratically voted in a government in power that openly calls for the murder of the Jewish people, of innocent Jewish men women and children, just like the Germans did some 60 years ago.
Just as the Israeli persist in electing governments that blatantly disregads international law in expropriating palestinian propoerty etc. Surely you're aware of that. An extremist is an extremist by any color.
Quote from: erato on February 20, 2008, 03:21:00 AM
Just as the Israeli persist in electing governments that blatantly disregads international law in expropriating palestinian propoerty etc. Surely you're aware of that. An extremist is an extremist by any color.
Disregard international law?
You have Hamas sending missiles raining over Israeli cities with the intention to murder innocent civilians, the same thing Hezbollah is doing in the north, and all Israel is doing is responding in an extremely shocking restrained manner , trying to get only those who commit these evil actions and who hide behind innocent civilians.
What would have any other "normal" country done in a similar situation when faced with a rain of missiles directed at its citizens?
When Britain was attacked by Germany in WW2 by Missiles at London trying to kill as many innocent English citizens, Churchill responded by flattening entire German cities such as Dresden and hundreds of thousands of Germans were killed.
But today , in the case of Israel, it doesn't behave in the same manner as the vicious and evil Palestinians behave. Israel is only trying to get the terrorists who are committing these evil crimes , and its against its interest to attack civilians, firstly because of a moral issue and secondly because its bound by democratic principals and cant resort to the same behavior as the terrorist.
And anyone who compares Israel to Hamas or the P.L.O is a Jew hater , for he is willfully blinding himself to reality and he compares the Jew against his oppressors and demands that the Jew should only be allowed to suffer aggression and terror, but never fight back, for he will risk to be labeled as a criminal himself, just because he wants to stay alive and protect himself and his home.
You and the likes of you are Jew haters, and there is nothing in the world that you can say that will blur this fact.
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 08:58:13 PM
Let me spill the beans for you so you might get it this time.
I am sure O Mensch will be happy to have all these things explained to him by you, someone who doesn't speak German, has no idea what is going on there today, and what Barenboim actually said in the interview. As someone who does speak German and has actually lived there for many years, he needs these things explained to him by you. ::)
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 08:58:13 PM
First of all, this Jewish/Israeli Conductor is giving out these interviews on German television, a nation that was responsible for the murder of 6 million innocent men women and children ( a million children) of his people just some 60 years ago. You might of expected him to converse about how terrible the Germans were to his people and what he as a musician and as a Jew can do to reconnect German citizens to their history and the crimes of their fathers so they wouldnt ever do these evil crimes again.
Germans already are extremely well connected to their history. Information about and discussion of the Nazi era is everywhere, all the time, so people already know what has happened and it has all been very openly discussed for decades. Which is why the vast majority of Germans today is so tolerant, but also concerned about seeing other injustices happening elsewhere today.
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 08:58:13 PM
Why does he think that he represents any Jew? He doesn’t represent me or any other Jew living anywhere. He might represent himself and that’s his right but he doesn’t speak for the Jews at all. He also doesn’t represent Jewish acceptance of Wagner’s music. He might love Wagner, but Jews don’t , and they have a good reason.
There are many, many Jewish musicians who play Wagner. You basically saying they aren't "real Jews" is just like the Nazis deciding who were "real Germans" and who not.
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 08:58:13 PM
And last but not least , one would have thought that Barenboim in his delusional naïve and ridiculous attempt to achieve peace through these actions
Barenboim very explicitly says that he is not trying to achieve peace through these actions because that has to be done by other means - so you really didn't understand what he said at all - he says he just wants to provide a platform for dialog through cultural means.
In the political chaos and turmoil in Germany in the 20s, there were people who tried to moderate between opposing fractions and de-escalate the situation, and they were defamed by extremists just like you. Many people in Germany and elsewhere have learned from these and other historical situations. You haven't. You don't even really know history and believe in some naive mythology instead. Mentally, you are very close to a Nazi in many, many respects. You are an interesting object of study, I have to say.
Quote from: M forever on February 20, 2008, 04:51:48 AM
I am sure O Mensch will be happy to have all these things explained to him by you, someone who doesn't speak German, has no idea what is going on there today, and what Barenboim actually said in the interview. As someone who does speak German and has actually lived there for many years, he needs these things explained to him by you. ::)
Germans already are extremely well connected to their history. Information about and discussion of the Nazi era is everywhere, all the time, so people already know what has happened and it has all been very openly discussed for decades. Which is why the vast majority of Germans today is so tolerant, but also concerned about seeing other injustices happening elsewhere today.
There are many, many Jewish musicians who play Wagner. You basically saying they aren't "real Jews" is just like the Nazis deciding who were "real Germans" and who not.
Barenboim very explicitly says that he is not trying to achieve peace through these actions because that has to be done by other means - so you really didn't understand what he said at all - he says he just wants to provide a platform for dialog through cultural means.
In the political chaos and turmoil in Germany in the 20s, there were people who tried to moderate between opposing fractions and de-escalate the situation, and they were defamed by extremists just like you. Many people in Germany and elsewhere have learned from these and other historical situations. You haven't. You don't even really know history and believe in some naive mythology instead. Mentally, you are very close to a Nazi in many, many respects. You are an interesting object of study, I have to say.
Calling a Jew a Nazi is an anti Semitic and a sick thing, M, but I know that you cant do better then this diatribe, for what can one expect from a fool like you?
I wont respond to the rest of your diatribe, for its your usual nonsense just repeated once again.
Quote from: Saul on February 20, 2008, 04:56:58 AM
Calling a Jew a Nazi is an anti Semitic and a sick thing, M
I didn't call you a Nazi - you obviously don't qualify - but you are very close to them in your thinking, just on the other side of the fence, but looking in the same direction. Since you aren't very well informed about history, you probably don't even realize that.
You, on the other hand, decide what "real Jews" like or don't like (e.g., Wagner), so you actually are anti-semite by your own definition. Because you put down other Jews because they don't conform to your ideas about what a "real Jew" is supposed to be like. Again, in that respect you behave exactly like the Nazis who decided who were "real Germans" and what "real Germans" should do and think and like and dislike.
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 08:58:13 PM
Why does he think that he represents any Jew? He doesn't represent me or any other Jew living anywhere. He might represent himself and that's his right but he doesn't speak for the Jews at all. He also doesn't represent Jewish acceptance of Wagner's music. He might love Wagner, but Jews don't , and they have a good reason.
From the mid 1980s up until recently, you could rarely hear a performance at the Metropolitan Opera of the Ring, Meistersinger, Tristan, or Parsifal that wasn't conducted by James Levine, who is as Jewish as they come; and only in the past few years have a couple of these operas been directed by Valery Gergiev and the Jewish conductor Lorin Maazel.
Why? because these men are not true Jews? because they don't speak to the Jewish people? Or is it not rather because they recognize that, the shortcomings of the man's character aside, he was not personally responsible for the use the Nazis made of him, and he was a very great composer whose music still has a powerful impact on operagoers.
This isn't the place to get into whether the libretti Wagner wrote for his operas have any overt or covert anti-Semitic subtexts (I actually feel some of that is present, but not to the extremes that some scholars take it). But I feel also that to see Wagner as the symbol for all of one's quite obviously justified loathing of the Nazis is extreme. I think Hitler said something to the effect that whoever would understand National Socialism must understand Wagner. But that does not mean Hitler had an accurate understanding of Wagner himself; it means solely that he saw something in Wagner he could turn to his own nefarious purposes. And besides there are other composers the Nazis championed - Bruckner, Richard Strauss, Orff - who seem never to carry the same onus in Jewish eyes as the wizard of Bayreuth.
Quote from: Sforzando on February 20, 2008, 05:21:31 AM
And besides there are other composers the Nazis championed - Bruckner, Richard Strauss, Orff -
Liszt, Beethoven...
Sarge
Quote from: Sforzando on February 20, 2008, 05:21:31 AM
From the mid 1980s up until recently, you could rarely hear a performance at the Metropolitan Opera of the Ring, Meistersinger, Tristan, or Parsifal that wasn't conducted by James Levine, who is as Jewish as they come; and only in the past few years have a couple of these operas been directed by Valery Gergiev and the Jewish conductor Lorin Maazel.
Huh? Wagner operas are performed everywhere, all the time, by Jewish and non-Jewish conductors. That said, the list of Jewish conductors who championed Wagner even after the 3rd Reich is extremely long and filled with many important musical personalities.
Quote from: Sforzando on February 20, 2008, 05:21:31 AM
And besides there are other composers the Nazis championed - Bruckner, Richard Strauss, Orff - who seem never to carry the same onus in Jewish eyes as the wizard of Bayreuth.
I tink Strauss was also seen as problematical for a long time - I remember watching an interview with Zubin Mehta who said he couldn't perform his orchestral works in Israel, but that he played them in rehearsals with the IPO because it is very important for an orchestra to play these pieces. A number of years ago, there was a performance of "Metamorphosen" by the Kibbuz Chamber Orchestra which was apparently rather controversial but also thawed the ice. I think Strauss is now performed in Israel just like everywhere else. A friend from Tel Aviv told me that "Carmina burana" has always been a great favorite there though, strange, isn't it? Of course, the music doesn't have anything to do with Nazism as such, but the association is obvious because it was atually written during that era - unlike Wagner and most of Strauss.
Quote from: M forever on February 20, 2008, 05:29:06 AM
Huh? Wagner operas are performed everywhere, all the time, by Jewish and non-Jewish conductors. That said, the list of Jewish conductors who championed Wagner even after the 3rd Reich is extremely long and filled with many important musical personalities.
Please read what I wrote: "From the mid 1980s up until recently, you could rarely hear a performance
at the Metropolitan Opera of the Ring, Meistersinger, Tristan, or Parsifal that wasn't conducted by James Levine."
Examples: There were 32 Tristans at the Met between 1981-today, all conducted by Levine. All Ring cycles between 1989-2004 at the Met were under Levine. Of 57 Parsifals given from 1980-today, 49 were under Levine, and he would have conducted the three in 2006 had he not injured his shoulder.
Saul, you're not a Nazi, just a narrow-minded fanatic.
Quote from: Saul on February 20, 2008, 04:45:09 AM
Disregard international law?
You have Hamas sending missiles raining over Israeli cities with the intention to murder innocent civilians, the same thing Hezbollah is doing in the north, and all Israel is doing is responding in an extremely shocking restrained manner , trying to get only those who commit these evil actions and who hide behind innocent civilians.
I don't recall the conquest of Lebanon being anything approaching 'restrained.' Indeed, Beirut was brought to her knees - again - and even Israeli authorities admit that it was mishandled.
QuoteWhat would have any other "normal" country done in a similar situation when faced with a rain of missiles directed at its citizens?
Built more bomb-shelters?
QuoteWhen Britain was attacked by Germany in WW2 by Missiles at London trying to kill as many innocent English citizens, Churchill responded by flattening entire German cities such as Dresden and hundreds of thousands of Germans were killed.
Because two wrongs make a right...
QuoteBut today , in the case of Israel, it doesn't behave in the same manner as the vicious and evil Palestinians behave. Israel is only trying to get the terrorists who are committing these evil crimes , and its against its interest to attack civilians, firstly because of a moral issue and secondly because its bound by democratic principals and cant resort to the same behavior as the terrorist.
And anyone who compares Israel to Hamas or the P.L.O is a Jew hater , for he is willfully blinding himself to reality and he compares the Jew against his oppressors and demands that the Jew should only be allowed to suffer aggression and terror, but never fight back, for he will risk to be labeled as a criminal himself, just because he wants to stay alive and protect himself and his home.
You and the likes of you are Jew haters, and there is nothing in the world that you can say that will blur this fact.
Tell that to the dead Lebanese civilians. I am sure that they'll really love your moral rectitude and certainty that violence isn't violence when the 'good guys' commit it. Of course, we Americans elected a president who sounds remarkably like you, so we have a collective soft spot for all-or-nothing moralists with a taste for blood. Keep up the good work. From New York City, here in Fortress America, where you don't actually have to deal with any of the issues about which you are so sure. It must be really easy to be so morally certain from a café on the Lower East Side.
Quote from: Florestan on February 20, 2008, 06:17:44 AM
Saul, you're not a Nazi, just a narrow-minded fanatic.
Exactly, and that's what he has in common with them. Nobody ever said he was an *actual* Nazi, a subscriber to that particular ideology in all its details. But his racist and elitist group thinking and the way he looks at other groups as being all enemies and the way he wants to define what members of his own (perceived) group are supposed to be like (or not) are all elements which bring him very close to that - or indeed any extremist - ideology.
Quote from: Sforzando on February 20, 2008, 05:56:51 AM
Please read what I wrote: "From the mid 1980s up until recently, you could rarely hear a performance at the Metropolitan Opera of the Ring, Meistersinger, Tristan, or Parsifal that wasn't conducted by James Levine."
Examples: There were 32 Tristans at the Met between 1981-today, all conducted by Levine. All Ring cycles between 1989-2004 at the Met were under Levine. Of 57 Parsifals given from 1980-today, 49 were under Levine, and he would have conducted the three in 2006 had he not injured his shoulder.
Oops, sorry, I didn't see the MET part. That, and the fact that he has recorded and filmed the Ring and conducted at Bayreuth apparently makes Levine "not a real Jew" in Saul's eyes.
Quote from: PSmith08 on February 20, 2008, 07:05:50 AM
Because two wrongs make a right...
Plus another very obvious difference is that Germany at that time had the most powerful army ever assembled in history, so it had to be total war. Which in my mind doesn't excuse the militarily unnecessary acts of destruction such as the firebombing of Dresden which made the British sink to the same level as the Wehrmacht and SS, but that's another topic. Saul's comparison here is certainly silly because the Palestinians are in no way as well equipped and strong in numbers as the German forces during WWII. But the Israelis certainly often react as if they had to deal with a huge army of evil on the other side.
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 08:58:13 PM
Why is he investing so much time criticizing Israel when he perfectly knows (I hope he knows) that the people he is trying to help (Palestinians) have willfully elected a vehemently anti-Semitic organization into power ?
What is the exact difference between the Hamas suicide bomber who murdered innocent people and the one who elected his dispatchers into office? Can you please enlighten us O Mench with your wit and inform us ?
This is your central problem right here: guilt by association. Have you surveyed all the musicians of the WEDO? Do you know who they individually voted for? Do you even know the differences between Hamas, Fatah, Hezbollah etc.? Some of these kids are under 18 years of age. Are you going to hold it against them that they have shown the good will of coming to peacefully play music with Jewish kids and a Jewish conductor? Does this somehow make them bad people? Is evil passed on by blood? Be careful now. If you answer yes to the last question, you have basically reformulated the Nuremberg laws from a Jewish supremacist perspective.
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 08:58:13 PM
It is extremely arrogant on his part just because he is a great musician and has many fans , that doesn't give him any right to take up the position of "ambassador of peace" . No one has appointed him to this position, and frankly he cant put himself into this position. He is not a politician, nor a military official. Therefore been a famous musician is not a free ticket to become a politician. And if you had listened carefully, the interviewer asked him about using music as a political tool and to be sure, that's exactly what Barenboim is doing, he is using the power that he has from been a famous musician to try to dictate politics while at the same time leaving a trail of accusations and criticism at Israel.
Saul, you might have noticed: in a democracy,
everyone has freedom of speech. Is Israel a democracy or not? If it is, it should be a matter of pride for you personally to defend Barenboim's right to express his contrary opinions. If you don't understand that concept you have no business calling yourself a citizen of a democratic society. PS: Barenboim has nowhere near the power to dictate anything to anyone, not even to his own musicians, certainly not to the state of Israel.
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 08:58:13 PM
His delusional behavior stems from his shocking ignorance of his Jewish religious heritage and history.
My friend, culture and heritage is not a static thing encapsulated in amber. You've got to stop living in the past.
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 08:58:13 PM
His pathological dismissal of Arab barbarism and sadism towards Israel even before the creation of the State of Israel bars him from been a well informed and a balanced representative for Israel. What remains here is that he is a representative of the Palestinians and not of the Jewish people. Therefore, I asked and rightfully so, why does he conduct himself this way?
What is pathological here is your manichean worldview. You are completely unwilling to grant the Palestinians or any Arabs any human dignity. So therefore anyone with a more nuanced view of the world who recognizes that Israel is co-responsible for the intractable mess between those two nations is immediately a "representative of the Palestinians", right? You do realize that prior to the creation of the modern state of Israel, these guys were peacefully living there, right?
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 08:58:13 PM
Why does he think that he represents any Jew?
He doesn't. German language capabilities might have been useful for you. Too bad.
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 08:58:13 PM
He doesn't represent me or any other Jew living anywhere. He might represent himself and that's his right but he doesn't speak for the Jews at all.
But you think you do? Saul Dzorelashvili, the next Messiah? Representative of all Jews?
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 08:58:13 PM
He also doesn't represent Jewish acceptance of Wagner's music. He might love Wagner, but Jews don't , and they have a good reason.
Apart from Sforzando's mention of Levine, a quick perusal of a recording catalogue will prove your assertion untrue by the mere listing of the countless Jewish musicians who love Wagner's music so much, they can't stop playing it. PS: also Hermann Levi conducted many of his operas' permieres during Wagner's lifetime.
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 08:58:13 PM
Now , you're telling me hey Saul! Can't you distinguish between the Nazi SS murderer and the Violin playing German citizen who lives in the mountains of Bavaria?
No, I have two much better questions: can't you distinguish between Nazis and present day generations of Germans who weren't even alive then? More importantly: can't you distinguish between German Nazis and modern Palestinians? That is the central problem of yours and all hardline conservatives around the world: you keep re-fighting old wars. Whether it's McCain who is convinced he must stay in Iraq to "win" because he can't bear the trauma and indignity of another loss like Vietnam; or whether it is Israeli conservatives who think they can undo the Holocaust by blowing their Palestinian neighbors to smithereens; it's the same pathological blindness and inability to understand the present for what it is instead of projecting onto the present fears borne our of memories of an unpleasant past.
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 08:58:13 PM
No I do not see any difference. As long as that German violinist doesn't separate himself from Nazi ideology and barbarism and as long as he casts his vote for this evil regime, then I don't see any difference because the SS German murderer is a messenger of those who put him into office.
But how do you know they don't separate themselves from this ideology? You are just judging them a priori based on ethnicity - in exactly the same way that some of their forebears judged members of your people - instead of recognizing them as individuals. For you, Germans and Palestinians are a priori guilty unless they themselves prove to you their innocence. That's twisted, man. People like you are doomed to live in perpetual fear and in a constant repetition of vicious cycles of vengeful violence. As long as you have that attitude, you will never escape that cycle.
Quote from: Saul on February 19, 2008, 08:58:13 PMAnd last but not least , one would have thought that Barenboim in his delusional naïve and ridiculous attempt to achieve peace through these actions, would have chosen a legitimate decent and honorable person as a partner, for two are better then one as they say. But instead of that honorable person, Barenboim chose the famous anti Semitic "Professor" Edward Said, who by the way traveled all the way to Lebanon in order to hurle stones (with the intention to kill) at Israeli soldiers. Very balanced choice right?
Saul, this nonsense has to end. I'd wager that you have never read a single piece by Said, let alone any of his many books. The guy is anything but an anti-Semite (PS: I know this escapes you, but Arabs, too, are a semitic people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_people)). You might want to read up why Said went to Lebanon to hurl (no e) those stones. But that's asking too much of you. You can't recognize the fundamental injustice of forcibly expelling a population that has done nothing to you in order to erect your own state, then keeping them as second-class citizens and gradually occupying more and more of their territory in violation of treaties your own country has signed. You can't recognize that your people would ever do anything that might just objectively qualify as "bad", let alone "evil". You will never have the intellectual capacity to truly empathize with someone so different from yourself as to be able to put yourself into the shoes of a Palestinian in the occupied territories, without economic or personal perspectives and understand why that person would see the IDF as the enemy and use whatever futile weapons to express his anger, impotence and just try to make a slight difference, if only to put a small dent in an Israeli APC by throwing a rock. You also don't recognize the moral difference between a civilian who throws rocks against the armed military forces of an occupier vs. someone who commits a suicide bombing at a civilian gathering place.
I admire your patience and cogency, O Mensch.
Quote from: M forever on February 20, 2008, 07:24:09 AM
Plus another very obvious difference is that Germany at that time had the most powerful army ever assembled in history, so it had to be total war. Which in my mind doesn't excuse the militarily unnecessary acts of destruction such as the firebombing of Dresden which made the British sink to the same level as the Wehrmacht and SS, but that's another topic. Saul's comparison here is certainly silly because the Palestinians are in no way as well equipped and strong in numbers as the German forces during WWII. But the Israelis certainly often react as if they had to deal with a huge army of evil on the other side.
Even at that, the destruction of Dresden caused a lot of queasiness on the Allied side. A lot of folks saw (and still see) the attack on Dresden, which had some military significance but not nearly as much as the Ruhr area (Essen and Dortmund, for example), as retaliation for Coventry in England. Even Churchill began to edge away from the raid when it became clear that a lot of people could not understand why Dresden was leveled. Not the Allies' proudest moment, not by a long shot.
It is ridiculous for anyone to assert that the various Palestinian terror organizations have one one-thousandth the military capability and organization of one division of the Wehrmacht. They are not trained and well-equipped soldiers with clear military objectives. They are a bunch of ragtag fanatics, rolling around in beat-up Toyota pickups and waving thirty-year-old AK-47s around like idiots. The fact that an army as well-equipped and well-trained as the IDF cannot dispatch a cadre of third-raters is not a great testament to the High Command.
Quote from: O Mensch on February 20, 2008, 07:44:11 AM
This is your central problem right here: guilt by association. Have you surveyed all the musicians of the WEDO? Do you know who they individually voted for? Do you even know the differences between Hamas, Fatah, Hezbollah etc.? Some of these kids are under 18 years of age. Are you going to hold it against them that they have shown the good will of coming to peacefully play music with Jewish kids and a Jewish conductor? Does this somehow make them bad people? Is evil passed on by blood? Be careful now. If you answer yes to the last question, you have basically reformulated the Nuremberg laws from a Jewish supremacist perspective.
This is the central question, and one that I think has been answered. For our dear correspondent, merely being Palestinian is enough to make them enemies of Israel and the Jewish people.
Thank heavens there's sane people like O Mensch, PSmith08, Jezetha around. On the other hand this discussion certainly shows there are zealots on either side of the Middle East conflict.
Listen to this interview and get the truth...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oN3K1Wsd-I0&feature=related
Must be nice to have a monopoly on the truth...........
For the sake of balance:
http://www.jkcook.net/Articles2/0298.htm#Top
Benjamin Netanyahu really nails it in that interview.
I don't understand why such a mess for what DB had said.
Who cares what that silly guy and mediocre musician say?.
Remember that he's an argentinian, and nothing an argentinian can said on politics has any importance.
Quote from: Saul on February 20, 2008, 12:35:40 PM
Listen to this interview and get the truth...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oN3K1Wsd-I0&feature=related
"I'm being openly evasive" ;D
Sorry, but "truth"? I don't think so. The guy is proto-fascist. In any case, thanks for revealing the source of your Likudnik brainwashing. Your collectivist rant about Jewish victimhood and the evil of all others is basically verbatim what Netanyahu is saying. He's just a lot more eloquent than you. Good to see that you're staying true to yourself and not engaging on substance. ::)
Quote from: carlos on February 20, 2008, 01:43:13 PM
I don't understand why such a mess for what DB had said.
Who cares what that silly guy and mediocre musician say?.
Remember that he's an argentinian, and nothing an argentinian can said on politics has any importance.
Lovely. Another erudite opinion by someone who thinks people ought to be judged by nationality instead of as individuals.
Argentinian isn't a nationality; is a misfortune.
Quote from: carlos on February 20, 2008, 02:38:28 PM
Argentinian isn't a nationality; is a misfortune.
Carlos, you yourself are in Argentina, aren't you? Are you Argentinian? If so, why the hatred?
Yes, I'm and argentinian living in Buenos Aires all my life. And that's the reason for my profound despise for my compatriots.
Quote from: carlos on February 20, 2008, 02:53:23 PM
Yes, I'm and argentinian living in Buenos Aires all my life. And that's the reason for my profound despise for my compatriots.
I am a Dutchman, living in Delft, born in Amsterdam. I don't approve of everything in The Netherlands, nor do I like every compatriot. But neither do I despise them for being Dutch. So - what's the reason for your violent dislike? The 'Dirty War'?
Quote from: carlos on February 20, 2008, 02:53:23 PM
Yes, I'm and argentinian living in Buenos Aires all my life. And that's the reason for my profound despise for my compatriots.
So then by your very own logic your Argentinian nationality disqualifies you from any further participation in this thread. Thank you for playing. Feel free to try again when you have a new passport.
Don't look for logic where hatred is so visceral, O Mensch. Still - I am interested to know what lies behind it.
Quote from: O Mensch on February 20, 2008, 03:00:12 PM
So then by your very own logic your Argentinian nationality disqualifies you from any further participation in this thread. Thank you for playing. Feel free to try again when you have a new passport.
Snap.
Quote from: Saul on February 20, 2008, 12:52:50 PM
Benjamin Netanyahu really nails it in that interview.
Yes, which is why Ehud Barak coalition beat Netanyahu by 388,546 votes. By Saul's logic, over three hundred thousand Israelis who voted in 1999 are "Jew haters," or Likud doesn't have the monopoly on the 'truth' in Israel. Let us also remember that, when Ehud Barak's government collapsed and Ariel Sharon become prime minister, that staunch Likudist ended up unilaterally withdrawing from Gaza and founding his own party, Kadima, which - when Mr. Sharon fell ill - propelled Ehud Olmert to power. Kadima is still the major party in the ruling coalition. So, Netanyahu might appeal to an extremist fringe, while most Israelis have consistently supported a more-moderate approach. I would love to see Saul explain this one away as anti-Semitism or cowardice. Maybe the people - you know - actually living in Israel and in the middle of the conflict (as opposed to being a YouTube-based performer living in the States) have a different idea of what's going on over there.
Of course, spouting the Likud Party platform from New York City is a lot easier than being in Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, or Haifa and doing the same. You can be as extremist as you want without any real personal stake in the rhetoric or the policies. Roger Waters called it 'the bravery of being out of range.'
Quote from: PSmith08 on February 20, 2008, 05:36:09 PM
Snap.
Yes, which is why Ehud Barak coalition beat Netanyahu by 388,546 votes. By Saul's logic, over three hundred thousand Israelis who voted in 1999 are "Jew haters," or Likud doesn't have the monopoly on the 'truth' in Israel. Let us also remember that, when Ehud Barak's government collapsed and Ariel Sharon become prime minister, that staunch Likudist ended up unilaterally withdrawing from Gaza and founding his own party, Kadima, which - when Mr. Sharon fell ill - propelled Ehud Olmert to power. Kadima is still the major party in the ruling coalition. So, Netanyahu might appeal to an extremist fringe, while most Israelis have consistently supported a more-moderate approach. I would love to see Saul explain this one away as anti-Semitism or cowardice. Maybe the people - you know - actually living in Israel and in the middle of the conflict (as opposed to being a YouTube-based performer living in the States) have a different idea of what's going on over there.
Of course, spouting the Likud Party platform from New York City is a lot easier than being in Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, or Haifa and doing the same. You can be as extremist as you want without any real personal stake in the rhetoric or the policies. Roger Waters called it 'the bravery of being out of range.'
Benjamin Netanyahu said general comments about the situation in Israel and the threat from Iran , the Hamas, and the Hezbollah. All of Israel agrees to these comments because they address all of Israel's challenges. No Israeli believes that a threat from Iran doesn't exist. Also the second Lebanon war was backed by the vast majority of Israel. So, I really don't know what your talking about.
By the way, if you don't know, I was raised in Israel and my father participated in the first Lebanon war, and after that he served many years in the IDF. I also happen to have many family and friends there. And even if I was not an Israeli citizen , as a Jew I feel obligated to know what is going on in the land of my forefathers, much more then you will ever be interested.
Quote from: Saul on February 20, 2008, 05:50:24 PM
Benjamin Netanyahu said general comments about the situation in Israel and the threat from Iran , the Hamas, and the Hezbollah. All of Israel agrees to these comments because they address all of Israel's challenges. No Israeli believes that a threat from Iran doesn't exist. Also the second Lebanon war was backed by the vast majority of Israel. So, I really don't know what your talking about.
That about which I spoke was merely this: your rhetoric (as well as that of Mr. Netanyahu) doesn't even sell with Israelis actually in the middle of the conflict. They recognize the problems, but they also seem interested in finding real, productive solutions to their challenges. Of course, one develops a sense of compromise and moderation when he's actually in the line of fire. There's something about being shot at, I'm told, that makes politicians' bigoted rhetoric seem a little pale.
QuoteBy the way, if you don't know, I was raised in Israel and my father participated in the first Lebanon war, and after that he served many years in the IDF. I also happen to have many family and friends there. And even if I was not an Israeli citizen , as a Jew I feel obligated to know what is going on in the land of my forefathers, much more then you will ever be interested.
Good for you. I'm happy for you. Well, I'm nominally a Roman Catholic, so I would be somewhat interested in the state of affairs of the Vatican, but the Lateran Accords were concluded in 1929. It's been pretty smooth sailing since, at least for the political status of the Holy See. I also hold a passport of the United States, and I don't see divided loyalties as being commensurate with my American citizenship.
Quote from: Saul on February 20, 2008, 12:35:40 PM
Listen to this interview and get the truth...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oN3K1Wsd-I0&feature=related
Once again, you reply to detailed arguments from several posters, especially O Mensch, with copy-and-paste material from other sources, in this case a video. Can't you reply to those points yourself?
You could start by replying to this. I would also be very interested to read your answer:
Quote from: PSmith08 on February 20, 2008, 05:36:09 PM
Yes, which is why Ehud Barak coalition beat Netanyahu by 388,546 votes. By Saul's logic, over three hundred thousand Israelis who voted in 1999 are "Jew haters," or Likud doesn't have the monopoly on the 'truth' in Israel. Let us also remember that, when Ehud Barak's government collapsed and Ariel Sharon become prime minister, that staunch Likudist ended up unilaterally withdrawing from Gaza and founding his own party, Kadima, which - when Mr. Sharon fell ill - propelled Ehud Olmert to power. Kadima is still the major party in the ruling coalition. So, Netanyahu might appeal to an extremist fringe, while most Israelis have consistently supported a more-moderate approach. I would love to see Saul explain this one away as anti-Semitism or cowardice.
O Mensch, PSmith08, M Forever: I too admire your patience, moderation and logic, but do you think they'll ever work with Saul? His ideological fanatism, his bigotted racism and his incapacity (and unwillingness) to see what's beyond the length of his nose disqualify him for any rational discussion. He is a Jewish suprematist by pure birth accident. He could have been as well a devout Nazi, an Arab suicide-bomber or an NKVD thug had he been born in the right place. The problem is this kind of people may seem harmless and pathetic, but, given the right conditions, they can become really dangerous.
Carlos, if everything Argentinian is worthless, how about yourself?
My birth in Argentina was an accident. Mi grandparents couldn't guess the future, and at that time (beginning of the past century) it was a sort of promise land. Now, is a conglomerate of many feudal kindoms managed by corrupt,stupid or degenerate capos, with a population principally poor, ignorant and incapable of react to the abuse.
I don't feel argentine at all, and in my mind, don't have anything to do with my compatriots.
Quote from: carlos on February 21, 2008, 02:34:23 AM
My birth in Argentina was an accident. Mi grandparents couldn't guess the future, and at that time (beginning of the past century) it was a sort of promise land. Now, is a conglomerate of many feudal kindoms managed by corrupt,stupid or degenerate capos, with a population principally poor, ignorant and incapable of react to the abuse.
I don't feel argentine at all, and in my mind, don't have anything to do with my compatriots.
Then why don't you move to another country?
Quote from: Florestan on February 21, 2008, 03:02:41 AM
Then why don't you move to another country?
I see Carlos is 65, Florestan... I think, if he had been able to, he would have emigrated by now. And besides - to emigrate you need money and qualifications, which not everybody has. Countries aren't that welcoming to immigrants.
Sad story, all the same. It looks like the equivalent of someone born in the wrong body.
Quote from: Jezetha on February 21, 2008, 03:18:36 AM
I see Carlos is 65, Florestan...
Ah, well, then it's quite another story. Anyway, living in a country which you despise and with wich you don't feel connected in any way must be a traumatic experience.
Florestan, you were a teenager in 1989. Would be most interesting if you could share some thoughts about the Ceausesku era... Romania before and after, how things have changed.
Quote from: carlos on February 21, 2008, 02:34:23 AM
My birth in Argentina was an accident. Mi grandparents couldn't guess the future, and at that time (beginning of the past century) it was a sort of promise land. Now, is a conglomerate of many feudal kindoms managed by corrupt,stupid or degenerate capos, with a population principally poor, ignorant and incapable of react to the abuse.
I don't feel argentine at all, and in my mind, don't have anything to do with my compatriots.
And yet it's home, just as for many of us America is home, however much we may dislike certain aspects of the culture and the government. Every time I think I might want to pack it all in and move to Switzerland or Brazil, I am forcibly reminded that at base I am and always will be American.
Quote from: Florestan on February 20, 2008, 11:35:23 PM
O Mensch, PSmith08, M Forever: I too admire your patience, moderation and logic, but do you think they'll ever work with Saul? His ideological fanatism, his bigotted racism and his incapacity (and unwillingness) to see what's beyond the length of his nose disqualify him for any rational discussion. He is a Jewish suprematist by pure birth accident. He could have been as well a devout Nazi, an Arab suicide-bomber or an NKVD thug had he been born in the right place. The problem is this kind of people may seem harmless and pathetic, but, given the right conditions, they can become really dangerous.
That's precisely the problem. You get enough people like Saul in one place at one time, give them the right set of circumstances, and some really nasty stuff usually happens. I keep up the barrage, in this case, in hopes of either making a tiny crack in a fanatical, arrogant, and bigoted facade, or providing some balance and reason to a discussion predicated on unreason and intolerance. My biggest problem, though, is that he is making these fanatical, slightly racist pronouncements from the safety of New York City. He has nothing personally invested in his idiotic rhetoric, and he doesn't have to see the human consequences of his theories put to work. It's easy to call a whole group of people inhuman dogs, but unless you have to look in the eyes of a parent of hungry children and call them an inhuman dog, then you're just a blowhard coward.
Quote from: matti on February 21, 2008, 05:29:46 AM
Florestan, you were a teenager in 1989. Would be most interesting if you could share some thoughts about the Ceausesku era... Romania before and after, how things have changed.
Gladly.
( BTW, the correct speling is Ceausescu.)
Before: hard-line European Communism with some North-Korean flavour (pharaonic buildings, huge "popular" parades for the glorification of the leader, a demented and disgusting cult of personality). Food shortages, electricity, gas, heating and hot water cuts, the omnipresent secret police
Securitate hunting dissenters through an extended network of informers, severely limited and conditioned travel abroad, one TV station broadcasting a 2-hour, Ceausescu-gloryfying programme, extremely virulent anti-Western propaganda, completely controlled and planned economy, total censorship of press and books, no private access to internet, mandatory registering the computers and typing machines with the police etc etc etc --- and everybody waiting and praying for all this madness to end. Just the usual state of affairs to be expected in a Communist regime.
After 1989, things began to change. Of course, a ruined economy can't be fixed overnight so the economical situation is still not so good, with an average salary of 300 Euro. Many people, especially jobless middle-aged or retired old-aged have problems surviving, but I'd say, overall, things are much better now, actually one cannot possibly even compare them. As for freedom to travel, to find and receive information, to read and listen to whatever you want, things which for me are essential, it is complete.
So, I firmly believe that Ceausescu's regime, 1965-1989 (and the whole Communist regime, 1947-1989) has been the darkest era in Romanian history, bringing the country in a disastrous state, from which we struggle hard to get out.
Quote from: carlos on February 21, 2008, 02:34:23 AM
My birth in Argentina was an accident.
Exactly like Barenboim then. An "accident" his parents "rectified" rather quickly by moving to Israel.
Good question from matti, illuminating answer from Florestan. :)
The only thing that was flourishing was culture --- but not because of, but in spite of, the regime. Having at home a library full of great books ---and actually reading them all, or a collection of classical music or jazz or rock LPs was a sign of resistance. The books, especially those considered subversive and which censorship sometimes permitted to be printed sold out in a matter of hours. The LPs were smuggled in from Western countries or from less hard-line Communist ones and traded in the dedicated and thriving black market.
Quote from: Jezetha on February 21, 2008, 03:18:36 AM
I see Carlos is 65, Florestan... I think, if he had been able to, he would have emigrated by now. And besides - to emigrate you need money and qualifications, which not everybody has. Countries aren't that welcoming to immigrants.
Sad story, all the same. It looks like the equivalent of someone born in the wrong body.
Nah... It looks more like the equivalent of someone born with a malfunctioning brain. Don't get confused: Carlos rant says much more about his delusional imbecility than what it says about Argentina, which is indeed not the best country in the World and has indeed its number of problems to solve, but is nothing like the crap Carlos says.
Just consider this:
"Who cares what that silly guy and mediocre musician says? Remember that he's an argentinian, and nothing an argentinian can said on politics has any importance". Thus Daniel Barenboim is a "silly guy" and a "mediocre musician"... Carlos is so much better than DB: He collects coins (or pictures of coins, for what I know) and rants about his own country in an internet forum...
Carlos is what we use to call a "VIEJO PELOTUDO". Luckily this viejos pelotudos don't do ANYTHING, except for complaining and whining, which is annoying, but mostly harmless.
"I don't feel argentine at all"... Well, Mr. Carlos, the bad news is that you are indeed an Argentinean, not one of the most worthy, but an Argentinean nonetheless. Get over it.
Don't worry, Iconito - I took Carlos' remarks as his opinion and his opinion only. I didn't think I read the whole truth and nothing but the truth about Argentina...
Quote from: Jezetha on February 21, 2008, 03:03:42 PM
Don't worry, Iconito - I took Carlos' remarks as his opinion and his opinion only. I didn't think I read the whole truth and nothing but the truth about Argentina...
Oh, of course, of course, but... Well... I guess I wanted to have my own rant, too ;D
Quote from: Iconito on February 21, 2008, 03:10:41 PM
Oh, of course, of course, but... Well... I guess I wanted to have my own rant, too ;D
Ranting is a basic human right.
Quote from: Florestan on February 20, 2008, 11:35:23 PM
O Mensch, PSmith08, M Forever: I too admire your patience, moderation and logic, but do you think they'll ever work with Saul?
Of course not. Discussions like these never lead anywhere. But they are good exercise in argumentation. Saul is like one of these machines which which shoot out balls so you can practice tennis or baseball. Except he shoots out compact nonsense, and the aim of the exercise is to serve it right back. And then the next load of nonsense comes flying your way.
Quote from: Florestan on February 20, 2008, 11:35:23 PM
O Mensch, PSmith08, M Forever: I too admire your patience, moderation and logic, but do you think they'll ever work with Saul? His ideological fanatism, his bigotted racism and his incapacity (and unwillingness) to see what's beyond the length of his nose disqualify him for any rational discussion. He is a Jewish suprematist by pure birth accident. He could have been as well a devout Nazi, an Arab suicide-bomber or an NKVD thug had he been born in the right place. The problem is this kind of people may seem harmless and pathetic, but, given the right conditions, they can become really dangerous.
Indeed, and it is a point I have often made. That is one other reason why one shouldn't let that kind of nosense go completely unanswered.
Quote from: M forever on February 21, 2008, 06:04:29 PM
Discussions like these never lead anywhere. But they are good exercise in argumentation. Saul is like one of these machines which which shoot out balls so you can practice tennis or baseball. Except he shoots out compact nonsense, and the aim of the exercise is to serve it right back. And then the next load of nonsense comes flying your way.
LOLOLOL dammit I have just spewed tea on my shirt because of that! :D
Quote from: M forever on February 21, 2008, 06:04:29 PM
Of course not. Discussions like these never lead anywhere. But they are good exercise in argumentation. Saul is like one of these machines which which shoot out balls so you can practice tennis or baseball. Except he shoots out compact nonsense, and the aim of the exercise is to serve it right back. And then the next load of nonsense comes flying your way.
It's also easy practice. There are some formidable debaters here with plenty of information at the ready, and it is relaxing practice to spar with someone who can't send out loads of information, convincingly arranged into an argument, as he can't be bothered with "the truth" or "facts." Why pick a fight with the heavy hitters when you can have a light diversion after class before lunch?
Quote from: M forever on February 21, 2008, 06:04:29 PM
Saul is like one of these machines which which shoot out balls so you can practice tennis or baseball. Except he shoots out compact nonsense, and the aim of the exercise is to serve it right back. And then the next load of nonsense comes flying your way.
M is that you? ..... Um .. sorry, cant be .. this guy at least looks normal (nice music though)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5povNXsb8eI
Quote from: just josh on February 21, 2008, 06:24:08 PM
LOLOLOL dammit I have just spewed tea on my shirt because of that! :D
Send M forever the bill for your cleaners, Im sure he'll be more then glad to pay for it.
Quote from: PSmith08 on February 21, 2008, 06:36:19 PM
It's also easy practice. There are some formidable debaters here with plenty of information at the ready, and it is relaxing practice to spar with someone who can't send out loads of information, convincingly arranged into an argument, as he can't be bothered with "the truth" or "facts." Why pick a fight with the heavy hitters when you can have a light diversion after class before lunch?
Exactly. And it keeps you fit in between real matches. Unfortunately, on this as on many other forums, there is just a small handful of people who are actually fun to play against.
Oh, I see, the Saulinator is loaded with another round of nonsense: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,6138.0.html
M Forever, PSmith08: you're right on spot. Keep going, then! :)
Well, you had your fun. Keep laughing. But no more at my cost. I will not support your insults, so I'm leaving the forum >:( >:(
You haven't left yet. You can't just say that and then stay registered. You have to delete your account. I know what I am talking about, after all, I left 2 or 3 times and was banned once or twice. But you can always come back from the other side. Then you will be reborn and carlos forever.
Yes, right, deleting your account on an internet forum is something only "Nazis" do... ::)
Well, I had started wondering what is so wrong with Argentina, but it also looked to me like you might just be another Sean, somebody who hasn't been able to cope with life and blames everything on his environment. And a little racist, too.
Do you also have a lot of problems with Argentinian girls like he had with English/Western/any girl that can't be had for money?
Anyway, just go ahead, hit the delete button, nobody here will notice you are missing. Argentina probably wouldn't cry for you either.
OK, lads, let's just cool down a bit.
Carlos, it is difficult to tell precisely why you are so exercised. I certainly didn't see anyone saying anything to or about you that compares with the many things you have said to and about others. Viejo pelotudo must be a far worse insult in vernacular Argentinian than what it translates to. Still, I can easily imagine you've been called worse, and calling M a Nazi certainly ranks with "worse". I doubt he is that, he is merely a thorny cactus with a quicker wit than average.
Ideally, you will take a break and reconsider the wisdom of turning over every rock you come across. As a fellow viejo, I learned that lesson long ago. If you have not yet, perhaps it is time you did.
8)
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The Symphonies arranged for Solo Piano by Liszt - Cyprien Katsaris - LvB Symphony #3 arr for Piano 3rd mvmt - Scherzo: Allegro vivace