Richard Wagner: The Greatest Influence on Western Music?

[Haffner]

I hear Theodor Herzl rated Herr Wagner higher.

Saul's opinion supercedes Herzl, no contest. Hey, you know that, Danny!

[(poco) Sforzando]

Anyone that puts Wagner before Mendelssohn in terms of influence or quality of music or Genius, is a fool . . .

I'm afraid, dear fellow, that part has already been cast.

[Chaszz]

Getting back to the topic of this thread, it's informative to look at the criteria used to make the rankings (follow the link given in the first thread posting, to the website that published the list). They included references in books as well as influences on musical scores. It's well known that Wagner has been written about in a lot of books and articles, indeed, one estimate is that there's been more words published on him than any other figure besides Jesus Christ. The reasons are not hard to find; there's a lot of extra-musical interest in him. You get all his librettos and their sources and possible meanings, his anti-Semitism, his connection or not with the Holocaust; Hitler's love of him and his citation of him in Mein Kampf, the storied, checkered history of Bayreuth and his children, grandchildren and great-grand-children, was he a racist or not, were Klingsor, Beckmasser and Mime caricatures of Jews, the controversy over playing him in Israel, the similarity of his music to the effects of drugs, his pioneering use of primitivism (a major thread of 20th c. art) in his reliance on myths, his pioneering exploration of the unconscious in his leitmotifs and other devices, his philandering, his relationship with King Ludwig, his visit to Bismarck, and on and on and on. He also influenced a bunch of major twentieth century non-musical artists such as Mann and Joyce. Then there's the fact that he wrote a long shelf of books himself about many topics except the most important one, his opening up of harmony (which he never bothers mentioning even once anywhere). There is no doubt he's one of the most interesting cultural figures ever. Put it all together and it's no wonder he comes in first.

In my most private heart, he moves me more than any other composer. But I would not think that's why he ranks first in this particular list.

[paulb]

Mendelssohn?
I hope never again to hear his violin concerto in my life.

[marvinbrown]

Getting back to the topic of this thread, it's informative to look at the criteria used to make the rankings (follow the link given in the first thread posting, to the website that published the list). They included references in books as well as influences on musical scores. It's well known that Wagner has been written about in a lot of books and articles, indeed, one estimate is that there's been more words published on him than any other figure besides Jesus Christ. The reasons are not hard to find; there's a lot of extra-musical interest in him. You get all his librettos and their sources and possible meanings, his anti-Semitism, his connection or not with the Holocaust; Hitler's love of him and his citation of him in Mein Kampf, the storied, checkered history of Bayreuth and his children, grandchildren and great-grand-children, was he a racist or not, were Klingsor, Beckmasser and Mime caricatures of Jews, the controversy over playing him in Israel, the similarity of his music to the effects of drugs, his pioneering use of primitivism (a major thread of 20th c. art) in his reliance on myths, his pioneering exploration of the unconscious in his leitmotifs and other devices, his philandering, his relationship with King Ludwig, his visit to Bismarck, and on and on and on. He also influenced a bunch of major twentieth century non-musical artists such as Mann and Joyce. Then there's the fact that he wrote a long shelf of books himself about many topics except the most important one, his opening up of harmony (which he never bothers mentioning even once anywhere). There is no doubt he's one of the most interesting cultural figures ever. Put it all together and it's no wonder he comes in first.

In my most private heart, he moves me more than any other composer. But I would not think that's why he ranks first in this particular list.

 I feel the same way about Wagner's music as you do chaszz.  Wagner has this ability to polarize the field-those who love him as I do find his music extremely captivating- like a drug.  Those who hate him seem to do it with a passion.  I would argue that there is no middle ground with Wagner. The music "draws" a strong reaction from the listener and that to me is the very definition of influence!  

 marvin

[Haffner]

 I feel the same way about Wagner's music as you do chaszz.  Wagner has this ability to polarize the field-those who love him as I do find his music extremely captivating- like a drug.  Those who hate him seem to do it with a passion.  I would argue that there is no middle ground with Wagner. The music "draws" a strong reaction from the listener and that to me is the very definition of influence!  

 marvin

I wonder if the appreciation of Wagner can (at least for some) be experienced only through a willful opening up. What's that old Oriental saying "empty the glass" before attempting to learn anything? One might have to completely leave behind any preconceptions of what music/opera is composed of before listening to Wagner's masterpieces. I know I struggled a bit at first with the Ring, but when I accepted that Wagner wrote music dramas, not operas, my mind started opening up big time. I saw/heard exactly how his music influenced movie productions today, and my appreciation and love for the music deepend further. Naturally, at first I was drawn to the "hits" mostly, but not soon after my change in approach, my admiration skyrocketed.

But that was just me. Everyone's different, right?

[PerfectWagnerite]

A lot of people can't handle Wagner because they cannot come to grips with such manly music. Those like music that they don't have to think about and don't have to struggle with. They would rather just have music they can swallow like spagethi coated with olive oil. So for these people, no, they won't understand or like Wagner. I am glad you are not one of them though.

[Haffner]

A lot of people can't handle Wagner because they cannot come to grips with such manly music. Those like music that they don't have to think about and don't have to struggle with. They would rather just have music they can swallow like spagethi coated with olive oil. So for these people, no, they won't understand or like Wagner. I am glad you are not one of them though.

Me too! I hate to categorize others like that, but I understand your point. Dmitri (Dm) used to have a terrific signature: "music is discovery".

One day, I asked myself how much I thought could really get out of music. How far could I take it appreciation-wise? The answer came to me: however much of myself I was willing to put into music, music would pay me back at least a hundredfold every time.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Me too! I hate to categorize others like that, but I understand your point. Dmitri (Dm) used to have a terrific signature: "music is discovery".

One day, I asked myself how much I thought could really get out of music. How far could I take it appreciation-wise? The answer came to me: however much of myself I was willing to put into music, music would pay me back at least a hundredfold every time.

I think a lot of people share your sentiments. Look, despite all the Wagner haters, in general I think the public can't get enough of Wagner. Just look at the MET, they have no trouble selling out operas like Walkuere and Tristan. Try Manon Lescaut, they can't get people to go if they hand out free hot dogs at the gate.

[BachQ]

Anyone that puts Wagner before Mendelssohn in terms of influence or quality of music or Genius, is a fool and has no clue about what great composers and great music is all about.

"Once a spammer .......... Always a spammer ........."

[BachQ]

  Good luck with your music Andy.  I hope everything works out well for you  !  By the way that Parsifal Knapp 1962 that you are still checking out is a gem  0:).

  marvin

Congratulations on reaching your 1,000th post, Marvin! 

[BachQ]

Getting back to the topic of this thread, it's informative to look at the criteria used to make the rankings (follow the link given in the first thread posting, to the website that published the list). They included references in books as well as influences on musical scores. It's well known that Wagner has been written about in a lot of books and articles, indeed, one estimate is that there's been more words published on him than any other figure besides Jesus Christ. The reasons are not hard to find; there's a lot of extra-musical interest in him. You get all his librettos and their sources and possible meanings, his anti-Semitism, his connection or not with the Holocaust; Hitler's love of him and his citation of him in Mein Kampf, the storied, checkered history of Bayreuth and his children, grandchildren and great-grand-children, was he a racist or not, were Klingsor, Beckmasser and Mime caricatures of Jews, the controversy over playing him in Israel, the similarity of his music to the effects of drugs, his pioneering use of primitivism (a major thread of 20th c. art) in his reliance on myths, his pioneering exploration of the unconscious in his leitmotifs and other devices, his philandering, his relationship with King Ludwig, his visit to Bismarck, and on and on and on. He also influenced a bunch of major twentieth century non-musical artists such as Mann and Joyce. Then there's the fact that he wrote a long shelf of books himself about many topics except the most important one, his opening up of harmony (which he never bothers mentioning even once anywhere). There is no doubt he's one of the most interesting cultural figures ever. Put it all together and it's no wonder he comes in first.

In my most private heart, he moves me more than any other composer. But I would not think that's why he ranks first in this particular list.

Nice post.  To summarize (and oversimplify) Wagner's influence on Western Music:

1. Wagner developed and perfected the leitmotif as applied to opera; and this method of integrating large-scale musical works has carried over to other genres;
2. Wagner developed and expanded chromaticism and dissonance as a precursor to atonal music;
3. Wagner championed Gesamtkunstwerk—a total work of art unifying all elements.
4. Wagner advanced and expanded orchestration and instrumentation; Invented the Wagner Tuba; Developed ways to more colorfully orchestrate;
5. Wagner developed and perfected the concept of a "musical drama," wherein the music matches up with the drama;
6. Wagner revolutionized opera staging (sunken orchestra pit; lighting);
7. The Italian form of operatic realism dubbed verismo owes much to Wagner's reconstruction of musical form;
8. Wagner advanced the art of conducting by espousing Berlioz's concept that conducting was a means by which a musical work could be reinterpreted, and not merely a means of directing the musicians in unison (followed by Hans von Bulow, Arthur Nikisch, Wilhelm Furtwangler, Herbert von Karajan, etc.);
9. Wagner introduced a new type of opera character and new ways of exploiting those characters through, inter alia, musical integration of those characters; and
10. [reserved]

[BachQ]

b]Dmitri[/b] (Dm) used to have a terrific signature: "music is discovery".

What ever happened to that signature? 

[greg]

"Once a spammer .......... Always a spammer ........."

yeah, after all, EVERYBODY knows Mendelssohn was so much more influential on the history of Western music than Wagner.

[Haffner]

Nice post.  To summarize (and oversimplify) Wagner's influence on Western Music:

1. Wagner developed and perfected the leitmotif as applied to opera; and this method of integrating large-scale musical works has carried over to other genres;
2. Wagner developed and expanded chromaticism and dissonance as a precursor to atonal music;
3. Wagner championed Gesamtkunstwerk—a total work of art unifying all elements.
4. Wagner advanced and expanded orchestration and instrumentation; Invented the Wagner Tuba; Developed ways to more colorfully orchestrate;
5. Wagner developed and perfected the concept of a "musical drama," wherein the music matches up with the drama;
6. Wagner revolutionized opera staging (sunken orchestra pit; lighting);
7. The Italian form of operatic realism dubbed verismo owes much to Wagner's reconstruction of musical form;
8. Wagner advanced the art of conducting by espousing Berlioz's concept that conducting was a means by which a musical work could be reinterpreted, and not merely a means of directing the musicians in unison (followed by Hans von Bulow, Arthur Nikisch, Wilhelm Furtwangler, Herbert von Karajan, etc.);
9. Wagner introduced a new type of opera character and new ways of exploiting those characters through, inter alia, musical integration of those characters; and
10. [reserved]

This is an excellent summation, bravissimo Dmitri!

[BachQ]

This is an excellent summation, bravissimo Dmitri!

........... except that I left open the #10 spot ("reserved") ........... 

[BachQ]

This is an excellent summation, bravissimo Dmitri!

(also, please note my signature)

[Haffner]

(also, please note my signature)

Of course!

Maybe 10):

10) Wagner is the first composer whom seems to really have had a deep understanding of what would later be called "archetypes". The symbols he used in his poems, coupled with the intense themes throughout his work, can (with some willfull immersion on the listener's part) provoke some truly resounding emotions and thoughts within the listener/watcher. Nietzsche only proved how massively moved he was by the works of Wagner by crying so much about him in his works (think Shakespeare's "the lady doth protest too much"). Jung mentioned him several times in his own works, and countless philosophers,psychologists, and psychiatrists since.

Although overall it's a bit (in my opinion) strange that Israel banned his works for so long, it may prove how moving (on an extremely deep psychical level) his works truly are.

[marvinbrown]

Congratulations on reaching your 1,000th post, Marvin! 

  Thanks Dm  .

  marvin

[Chaszz]

I forgot to include, in my own rundown,

he was the first dramatist to darken the auditorium, which of course affected not only opera but all theatre.