Is Bach a Great Composer?

[Josquin des Prez]

A comment was made about Bach being the Issac Newton of genius in music.
So the question was raised another level to *who is The Einstein in music?*

I was refering to the quality level  of genius not to do with ethnic considerations.
All this time i though Berg was jewish.
I was not aware that Webern *appreciated Hitler* = doubt

Good grief, i was being facetious, as always. And while it's true that Webern gave Hitler the benefit of the doubt, i wouldn't read too much into it. It's easy for us to condemn those who supported the Nazi during their regime when speaking in insight but things weren't as clear cut for the people who actually lived through those times, particularly considering Hitler was notoriously apt at gathering support by telling people what they wanted to hear and then following his own agenda at the end.

[paulb]

Thanks for the clarification.
I love Webern immensely and that comment just did not fit with the image i have of the great genius.

[Sarastro]

Mozart was Jewish?

Mozart was American.


PS: The title of the topic is fallacious. It can't be taken seriously.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Mozart was American.


PS: The title of the topic is fallacious. It can't be taken seriously.

Of course not.

[Ephemerid]

Stealing a bit from Cheech and Chong:

"Well, one day I took a hit of acid and then listened to Bach at 78 speed..."

"Oh, and then what happened?"

"I SAW GOD."

[eyeresist]

Back to the original post...


Fernandez: "Bach is more complex and Vivaldi is more catchy, therefore Vivaldi is better."

Reese: "Bach is more complex and Vivaldi is more catchy, therefore Bach is better."


Whatever. Vivaldi undeniably wrote a lot of dull music, but I prefer him to Bach, because of his melodism and colourful orchestrations. Handel's quite good too!

[Josquin des Prez]

Fernandez: "Bach is more complex and Vivaldi is more catchy, therefore Vivaldi is better."

Reese: "Bach is more complex and Vivaldi is more catchy, therefore Bach is better."

Both of these are only partially right. Bach is more complex AND catchier as well, thus, why he's better.

[eyeresist]

Both of these are only partially right. Bach is more complex AND catchier as well, thus, why he's better.

Ah, but I disagree with Bach being catchier, so therefore he's not!


We could go on like this for some time, couldn't we?

[Mozart]

I've tried to like Bach, but I really just can't. While I see Vivaldi as an actually living person, Bach's music sounds like a machine wrote it. The only real piece of Bach's that has had any effect on me is the double violin concerto. I remember once playing the cello suits and being completely hypnotized by them, I sat through all of them without doing anything, not even moving and when they finished I got up like I had taken a nap. Mind control it was! Luckily I was to strong for it. I'll take Vivaldi over Bach.

* I don't doubt that Bach is a great composer, and every musicologist and ever composer says he is the best. But I am not a composer, my best musical compositions have happened on the toilet. The only thing I know about music is how to listen to it, and I prefer Vivaldi.

[Mozart]

Both of these are only partially right. Bach is more complex AND catchier as well, thus, why he's better.

So true! I'm always humming the toccata and fugue...

[Josquin des Prez]

I've tried to like Bach, but I really just can't.

That's probably because you still haven't acquired proper vertical thinking yet. I remember struggling with Bach too at first, all though there were always things which i latched on instantly (his concertos for instance). Think that i actually hated the Partitas, or the Art of Fugue, while currently they are among my top 10 compositions ever.

All i can say is keep trying. Eventually, you'll be able to come on top of things, as i did.

[Ten thumbs]

Can't be, only three of those are Jewish.

Bach was English?
That reminds me of Purcell, another great composer.

[(poco) Sforzando]

I've tried to like Bach, but I really just can't. While I see Vivaldi as an actually living person, Bach's music sounds like a machine wrote it. The only real piece of Bach's that has had any effect on me is the double violin concerto. I remember once playing the cello suits and being completely hypnotized by them, I sat through all of them without doing anything, not even moving and when they finished I got up like I had taken a nap. Mind control it was! Luckily I was to strong for it. I'll take Vivaldi over Bach.

* I don't doubt that Bach is a great composer, and every musicologist and ever composer says he is the best. But I am not a composer, my best musical compositions have happened on the toilet. The only thing I know about music is how to listen to it, and I prefer Vivaldi.

If you can find Leonard Bernstein's "The Joy of Music" in your local library, I strongly recommend reading the transcript of his Omnibus program on Bach.

[quintett op.57]

That's probably because you still haven't acquired proper vertical thinking yet. I remember struggling with Bach too at first, all though there were always things which i latched on instantly (his concertos for instance). Think that i actually hated the Partitas, or the Art of Fugue, while currently they are among my top 10 compositions ever.

Which partitas?

All i can say is keep trying. Eventually, you'll be able to come on top of things, as i did.

not even sure.

[Lady Chatterley]

That reminds me of Purcell, another great composer.

I love Purcell too!

[karlhenning]

Let's hear it for another great Italian, Johann Sebastian Bach!

[Josquin des Prez]

Which partitas?

The Partitas (BWV 825^830, Op.1), what else?

not even sure.

Of what? I succeeded, what makes you think you can't?

[jochanaan]

...Bach's music sounds like a machine wrote it...

So true! I'm always humming the toccata and fugue...

No comment needed.

I fail to understand why Bach is considered "mechanical" and "too intellectual."  What I have always loved about his music is its balance of mind and heart.  But I have to say I've heard a number of mechanical performances of Bach's music...

[bassio]

No comment needed.

I fail to understand why Bach is considered "mechanical" and "too intellectual."  What I have always loved about his music is its balance of mind and heart.  But I have to say I've heard a number of mechanical performances of Bach's music...

I always failed how Bach is viewed as an "intellectual". In fact if such an argument can be thrown, then it is no less valid (or more valid) than when someone throws an argument that the atonalists are more "intellectual" in nature.

It is the fact that he liked a particular style of music and was committed to it. The polyphonic nature of the music can just be difficult for newcomers that's all. But most of his melodies are clear and hold deep emotional content (at least for me).

I urge Bach newcomers to listen to Orchestral suite No.2 for instance. The first composition that got me into Bach.

[Norbeone]

I've tried to like Bach, but I really just can't. While I see Vivaldi as an actually living person, Bach's music sounds like a machine wrote it. The only real piece of Bach's that has had any effect on me is the double violin concerto.

Then, my friend, I envy you because you have a wealth of music from Bach to be newly astonished by, if you give him a real chance. And I mean a proper chance, because the last thing Bach is, is mechanical. Very thoroughly worked out, yes, but not mechanical.

I'm sure you'll see some day that what makes Bach so special is that he does both the theoretical stuff and emotional stuff very very well. It is often argued that all of the highly complex and rigorously worked-out counterpoint is something that can give one merely intellectual and theoretical enlightenment. But, sir, these things actually serve to make the already highly emotional experience much more intense. Hearing and recognising that inverted fugal subject enter canonically over an augmented one is the type of thing that can make your spine tingle, however strange that may sound.

Here are some of the many Bach works that literally (ok, figuratively!) transport me into another world, where I can forget everyday nuisances and worries:

- The D Minor Partita for unaccompanied violin - particularly the mind-blowing Chaconne, which I sometimes consider to be the greatest of all human achievements. (A big claim, I know)
- Mass in B Minor - listen to the opening Kyrie and tell me it does nothing for you!
- Goldberg Variations - give this time and you will love it (especially Gould's 1981 recording)
- Cantata BWV 54 'Widerstehe doch der Sunde'
- Concerto for Keyboard in D Minor BWV 1052
- Selections from the great Well-tempered Clavier
- Musical Offering - particularly the 6-voice ricercar
- French Suite No.5 in G Major
- English Suite No.2 in A Minor
- Partita No.s 2 and 6 in C Minor and E Minor, respectively
- St. John and St. Matthew Passions. The opening of the St. John is surely another one that will move you to at least some degree
- Art of the Fugue - give this one a lot of time. I have still not gotten to the point where I 'get' the whole piece or understand its full power yet, but I know I will eventually.


They're just a few of the must-listen-tos. Really, I strongly urge you to check them out and find out what you've been missing all these years. Enjoy