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[AnotherSpin]

What a pleasure to revisit this - first time in 50 years. What poetry! Even in translation it's astonishing. I've just finished Bk 2 - the Trojan horse.

Compared with other epics - Homer, Mahabharata, the Samuel and Kings in the OT - it feels less alien, more like my world. Why that is I can't say, because there's gods and violence aplenty - it maybe that the English school system that I suffered inculcated Augustinian values.

I think I understand what you mean. When I was deeply immersed in ancient Greek and Roman literature years ago, I was a complete fanatic, reading almost everything that had been translated and published in the USSR. What struck me again and again was how astonishingly modern many of those texts felt. The themes, the human quirks, the sharp observations of character and society all seemed surprisingly close and relevant, as if they could have been written yesterday.

That sense of timelessness brings to mind a remarkable Ukrainian reworking of Virgil's Aeneid. It is the burlesque-travesty poem Eneïda (Енеїда), written more than two centuries ago by Ivan Kotlyarevsky. He began working on it in the 1790s, and the first three parts were published in 1798 in St. Petersburg, without his consent, in a pirated edition. Today, the poem is widely regarded as the founding work of modern Ukrainian literature, since it was the first major literary text written entirely in the living Ukrainian vernacular rather than in Church Slavonic or old Russian.

In Kotlyarevsky's hands, Virgil's epic is brilliantly parodied. The Trojan heroes are transformed into Zaporozhian Cossacks, complete with their boisterous, earthy manners. Aeneas becomes a clever, roguish Cossack lad, the gods resemble quarrelsome landowners or tavern regulars, and the narrative is saturated with Ukrainian folklore, customs, food, drink, swearing, and sharp satire of everyday life. The poem overflows with bawdy humor, exaggeration, and social commentary. Gods and heroes get drunk, brawl, chase women, and behave in ways that are anything but heroic.

Beneath the comedy, however, there is a more serious undercurrent. The poem subtly conveys nostalgia for the lost Cossack freedom following the destruction of the Zaporozhian Sich in 1775, and it affirms Ukrainian language and identity at a time when both were under intense pressure.

Eneïda quickly became enormously popular, inspired numerous imitations, and played a crucial role in raising colloquial Ukrainian to the level of a literary language. The complete six-part version was published only after Kotlyarevsky's death, in 1842. It remains widely read and performed to this day, with stage adaptations, operas, and even an animated film, and is cherished as a cornerstone of Ukrainian culture. It is funny, irreverent, and, in its own way, timelessly clever.

[Philo]

Are you an academic in this area or are you reading it just for pleasure/curiosity? I'll try to get hold of it - partly because it reminds me of a friend of mine who went to live in Timbuktu remarking that the people were adamant that there just are no native queers in Mali, that it was strictly a developed world phenomenon. Presumably lots of the people in Decena's study have cultural ties to sub Saharan Africa.

I also thought of this BBC series, which I thought was quite enjoyable - very enjoyable. I don't know if you can get it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/m0023h93/mr-loverman

@Cato What do you think of the word "faggotology". I'll look in the OED supplements later, see if it's found its way in there.

So, I am an academic, and I began reading this for both methodological and methodical purposes, but it is also a pleasure read as it is outside my discipline, and while incisive is written with pleasure in mind.

In sum, it is an immigrant's tale with dense theory interleaved throughout. They call what they are doing a faggotology - think hagiography, but it feels much more akin to something in-between autobiography, autoethnography, and autobiomythgraphy.

I picked it up primarily as my positionality and theirs is near overlapping, and since I see myself so infrequently in the academy, I was immediately hooked and gravitated toward it.

It is a very frank book.

[ritter]

I saw this film in the cinema back then. I can't remember exactly when, probably in the early 1980s. The details have faded over the years, but the overall impression stuck with me quite strongly and vividly.

Good to know! Thnaks.

The film was highly regarded when it was released, and I remember my (now deceased) sister raving about it the time, but somehow I never got to see it. I've decided to not watch it until after finishing the book.

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

Starting Carlo Levi's Cristo si è fermato a Eboli (Christ Stopped at Eboli), his 1945 memoir of his two years of banishment, by the Fascist regime, to a remote town in the Lucania region (now known as Basilicata).



The title stems from a local expression that means that the Lucania region was bypassed by Christianity or civilisation. Eboli is a town southeast of Naples, still in Campania; and yes, the historical Princess of Éboli, of Schiller and Verdi fame, got her title --or rather, it was bestowed to her husband by Philipp II of Spain-- from the town's name.

The book was turned into a movie by Francesco Rosi in 1979, starring Gian Maria Volonté.

Nice book and excellent movie. Francesco Rosi directed Chronicle of a Death Foretold and it is a wonderful movie as well.

[AnotherSpin]

Good to know! Thnaks.

The film was highly regarded when it was released, and I remember my (now deceased) sister raving about it the time, but somehow I never got to see it. I've decided to not watch it until after finishing the book.

A large number of significant films, both European and American, were actually shown on big screens across the Soviet Union. When it comes to Italian cinema in particular, directors such as Michelangelo Antonioni, Bernardo Bertolucci, Federico Fellini, and many others were far from unknown to ordinary Soviet moviegoers. Their major works were released in wide distribution and watched by millions.

On top of that, a considerable number of additional films, sometimes more daring or less "mainstream," were screened at special closed or semi-closed showings. In Odessa, for example, such events regularly took place at the local film studio, where one could see films that never made it into general release.

[pjme]

61 (very) short stories . Often great fun (think of a Fellini film), cruelty told with some tenderness, even if the protagonists - taxi drivers, waiters, delivery drivers, plumbers, con artists, and burglars - go through difficult, heartbreaking times! . Whether they're honest or dishonest, they try to scrape together a living in the bewildering post-war Rome. A city full of encounters, unexpected events, and adventures.

[Cato]

What a pleasure to revisit this - first time in 50 years. What poetry! Even in translation it's astonishing. I've just finished Bk 2 - the Trojan horse.

Compared with other epics - Homer, Mahabharata, the Samuel and Kings in the OT - it feels less alien, more like my world. Why that is I can't say, because there's gods and violence aplenty - it may be that the English school system that I suffered inculcated Augustinian values.

it has often been noted by Classicists in modern times how "contemporary" Vergil's sentiments and style are!

And yes, Robert Fagles is an excellent translator!

And I would hope that your school inculcated the Virtues of Saint Augustine into its students!    😇 

@Cato What do you think of the word "faggotology". I'll look in the OED supplements later, see if it's found its way in there.

Shakespeare's Titus Andronicus has the following line:

"What fool hath added water to the sea, or carried a faggot to bright-burning Troy?"

I doubt that the word in question refers to the study of a bundle of sticks for fire fuel.

I suppose one could attempt to coin a better word from Latin and Ancient Greek words, which could be very precise about the topic's assorted behaviors.

Otherwise, I find the word unpleasant.

[Mandryka]

Otherwise, I find the word unpleasant.

Yes, I was surprised that by the word, and faggot meaning homosexual (pejoratively) isn't British at all. For us, a faggot is a sort of disgusting meatball made with gross things from the inside of a pig.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_(food)

[Mandryka]

And I would hope that your school inculcated the Virtues of Saint Augustine into its students!    😇 

Well having just finished Bk 4 I take it back. I'd have stayed in Carthage. Love beats duty! (Especially with that curse.)

It must be fantastic to teach this to teenagers. I envy you that.

[Brian]

Yes, I was surprised that by the word, and faggot meaning homosexual (pejoratively) isn't British at all. For us, a faggot is a sort of disgusting meatball made with gross things from the inside of a pig.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_(food)

As an American visiting Wales, I saw this on a menu and couldn't order it because I didn't want to say the word. Now your description makes me feel much better!

[Cato]

Well having just finished Bk 4 I take it back. I'd have stayed in Carthage. Love beats duty! (Especially with that curse.)

It must be fantastic to teach this to teenagers. I envy you that.

That was always a big question: does Aeneas have free will, or is he a puppet of the gods/Fate?


I taught Advanced Placement Latin IV now and then, and, yes, it was fun to look at Vergil's style (e.g. interlocking adjectives and nouns *), as well as the themes in the story.


*  e.g.  (I am making this up, as my Vergil books are packed away right now, for we have remodeling going on!)

Tumultuantem bonus ducere canem vir conatur.

Here I have "interlocked" everything: the adjectives and nouns, i.e. "tumultuantem" (struggling, badly  behaving) modifies "canem" (dog), "bonus" (good) modifies "vir" (man), and the dependent infinitive "ducere" (to lead, control) goes with "conatur (tries)."

[Florestan]

Yes, I was surprised that by the word, and faggot meaning homosexual (pejoratively) isn't British at all. For us, a faggot is a sort of disgusting meatball made with gross things from the inside of a pig.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_(food)

Faggots or savoury ducks are meatballs made from minced off-cuts and offal (especially pork, and traditionally pig's heart, liver and fatty belly meat or bacon) mixed with herbs and sometimes bread crumbs.

Sounds okay to me. Nothing I haven't eaten yet, or dislike.

[Cato]

I cannot place more than one line at a time here!  And now FORBIDDEN 403 comes up for the translation! 

[Florestan]

Tumultuantem bonus ducere canem vir conatur.

Here I have "interlocked" everything: the adjectives and nouns, i.e. "tumultuantem" (struggling, badly  behaving) modifies "canem" (dog), "bonus" (good) modifies "vir" (man), and the dependent
infinitive "ducere" (to lead, control) goes with "conatur (tries)."

Poetically it sounds very good, but what person in their right minds would have said that in a conversation, instead of

Vir bonus conatur ducere canem tumultuantem? (I specfically use the correct word order in Romanian)

I mean, I bet even native Latin speakers may have had to take their time trying to make sense of Latin poetry. 

[Cato]

The program is refusing to print the translation!  Just nutzoid!

[Cato]

Poetically it sounds very good, but what person in their right minds would have said that in a conversation, instead of

Vir bonus conatur ducere canem tumultuantem? (I specfically use the correct word order in Romanian)

I mean, I bet even native Latin speakers may have had to take their time trying to make sense of Latin poetry. 

My professors always claimed that a Roman would have read right through such a sentence with no problem!  The Letters of Pliny/Trajan are not immune to what we consider to be a complicated puzzle!

[Cato]

"The good man..is trying to control...the disobedient dog."

FINALLY!  Five attempts!             

Synonyms for "disobedient" brought up FORBIDDEN 403 !

[Florestan]

My professors always claimed that a Roman would have read right through such a sentence with no problem!  The Letters of Pliny/Trajan are not immune to what we consider to be a complicated puzzle!

An educated Roman sure (and those letters were written by educated people for educated people), but what about a Roman illiterate peasant or carpenter? Are we sure that they would have instantly understood it at first hearing? After all, the Romance vernaculars were born precisely from the alteration/simplification of Latin by the mass of common speakers, right?

Btw, are you aware of any Romance language other than Romanian which has preserved the vocative case? AFAIK, there isn't any.

[Florestan]

"The good man..is trying to control...the disobedient dog."

FINALLY!  Five attempts!             

Synonyms for "disobedient" brought up FORBIDDEN 403 !

You disobeyed the forum rules. 

[Mandryka]

That was always a big question: does Aeneas have free will, or is he a puppet of the gods/Fate?


I taught Advanced Placement Latin IV now and then, and, yes, it was fun to look at Vergil's style (e.g. interlocking adjectives and nouns *), as well as the themes in the story.


*  e.g.  (I am making this up, as my Vergil books are packed away right now, for we have remodeling going on!)

Tumultuantem bonus ducere canem vir conatur.

Here I have "interlocked" everything: the adjectives and nouns, i.e. "tumultuantem" (struggling, badly  behaving) modifies "canem" (dog), "bonus" (good) modifies "vir" (man), and the dependent infinitive "ducere" (to lead, control) goes with "conatur (tries)."

Well, I've finally got the message. Publius Vergilius Maro. I don't know if I ever knew that or whether I've just forgotten (And let's not get into Plato on knowledge and recollection in The Theaetetus (not least because, even though I've taught it, I've now forgotten all the details.) )