Members who have left.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Must be some kind of big Harry deal. 

With eight legs waiting to pounce!

[SonicMan46]

Go ahead and get everthing off your chest about Michael, but there is a soft spot in his heart. In the what are you eating thread, SonicMan described a venison meal he had in a restaurant and added two pictures of a buffalo and stag. Michael reprinted the stag photo and added: [quoting from memory]

"You ate Bambi's Daddy!"

Lis - you're right! M and I had some innocent responsive posts over the above - BTW, I'm still eating venison (regardless of its origin) -    Dave

[Brünnhilde forever]

Dave: And I am happy you have the opportunity to enjoy it! Some of my best friends are experts at preparing it. Not that he is among my personal friends, but my presently favourite conductor, Christian Thielemann is famous for his talent in treating his dinner guests with Gespickten Rehrücken und Spätzle. Not too sure about the English version of this dish, but I think it's called larded rack of venison and always served with this homemade pasta, we talked about here before.

[knight66]

This is a very good point, but I've studied quite a bit on music myself and still  find the more "emotional" posts to be the real reason why I go on this forum. I think that people do far too few of them. To share feelings on a certain piece of music...that's how you really connect, on a far more profound level than "oh dear, I think the cello player failed to play behind the beat on that lead into d-flat minor. OOOO! The pain!". Not saying M said much like that, but music for me is WAY more feeling and expression than anything academic. Maybe that's why I gravitate much more toward Wagner than Bach.

I feel like too much "studied" analysis is fake, silly, and ungratifying. The snob quotient is one of the primary reasons Our Music is dying.

Again, this is only opinion.

Wow Andy; Bach seemingly less emotional than Wagner: I am going to enjoy showing you how emotional Bach is.....you will end up happy eating the thought behind those words. Later in the week, I will write summat for you about Bach.

Cheers,

Mike

[Joe_Campbell]

Wow Andy; Bach seemingly less emotional than Wagner: I am going to enjoy showing you how emotional Bach is.....you will end up happy eating the thought behind those words. Later in the week, I will write summat for you about Bach.

Cheers,

Mike

Will there be a public viewing of this dissertation?

[knight66]

It won't be such a substantial piece, but it will mean finding time to make sense and draw some thoughts together.

Mike

[Joe_Campbell]

I look forward to it! Bach, for me, has always been an intimidating composer to try and explore. Back-packing onto someone else's passion might be the ticket!

[Florestan]

Tony, err...no.

Let me explain. This is a totally natural sequence of events. Harry has many friends on this board - including me. The sight of him being slammed without just cause is bound to incite action. That's what friends do. It's the natural order of things!

There's nothing more going on here. In the real world friends act similarly. That's why they're called friends!!

So there's no need to make this into more than it is. 

I ask you this point blank: What did Harry ever do to M? What did Harry ever do to YOU??

If Harry's not perfect in your eyes, big deal!!! You're not perfect, either. Nor I. But trying to mold someone else into one's OWN idea of perfection is an exercise in futility. Not gonna happen. EVER!!! When you get married you'll learn this!

But Harry isn't doing anything here so garish he must be burned at the stake! Like I said, if he has a fault in your eyes, fine. But from my vantage point I don't see that there's really anything to get so worked up about! You seem to be whipping yourself into a frenzy when there's nothing of danger anywhere around!!

Hence that "mountain out of a molehill" cliché comes to mind!

Anyway, given our history I think you know that if YOU were under sniper fire from someone on the board I'd be first in line to support you. That's what friends are for, right?

But, really, this Harry nitpicking of yours is really not worth the sweat.

Excellent points!

[Florestan]

Andy and Adam, you made some very valid points as well, regarding the enjoyment of music on a personal / emotional level rather than intellectual / technical one.

Bottom line, I think it's a matter of taste, preference and natural inclinations. There's nothing wrong with enjoying music on a purely emotional basis, jus as it's nothing wrong with dissecting a performance to the last technical details.

In this respect, M's theory according to which nobody can properly perform or understand or enjoy a composition if s/he has not studied extensively "the cultural context behind it" and which he used as a hammer mostly against Americans here (I remember him repeteadly asking "What can a Texas or Vermont guy understand of Dvorak or Bruckner?"), is pure nonsense.

Now, if he had been limiting himself to technically analyzing in a neutral manner the standard German High-Romanticism repertoire, which he seemed to know inside out, nobody would have had the slightest complaint. But why he felt the need to adorn his knowedge with gratuitous but ferocious insults and innuendos I do not know.

As for his extra-musical knowledge, I have major reservations and doubts, his parading as a scholar reading the New Testament in Greek notwithstanding. His grasp of the history of religion was superficial, and of Christianity he knew nothing that could not be found in "evangelical atheist" tracts.

I for one will not miss him and this is going to be my last comment on the whole matter.

[Senta]

Well...I don't visit here much anymore, but ran across all this when I happened by this weekend. I am also very sorry to see how it all went down. Honestly, when I saw M's name as "guest," I thought he had left voluntarily rather than being banned. I missed several posts back and forth along the way that led up to it, but they can be interpolated. 

It is unfortunate that with the M, all the good he had to share here had to come so often with the bad attached, I am surprised this hadn't happened sooner. One thing you could say for Mike though, is that he was always unfailingly honest, a trait I much admire. He did not suffer fools gladly. He often though wasted far too much breath and effort on debating others, futile effort which could have been better used discussing his knowledge of various musical and performance areas, rather than on tearing down others in a quest to teach them something. People must learn on their own.

Indeed, as Lis says, Mike did have a good heart, I know this firsthand because we were friends, very good friends for quite a while, on and off forum. He can be an extremely fun (and funny) person to talk to, and definitely has many interesting things to say on virtually everything, but especially on the subject of classical music, the European tradition, and the history behind it. As a friend, he is also generous to a fault. He will be, and is, greatly missed.

Re. Florestan's comment above me: somehow I managed to convince M that this Texas girl who grew up playing in bands, not even orchestras, could understand, process, and thoughtfully discuss things like Bruckner and Sibelius, because I proved that I could - I just wished sometimes on forum that he gave others more of a chance to do so. He did have the capability. I don't know exactly why his forum persona was rather different, except that he just couldn't help himself.   I do know that he enjoys sparring with people, and I think saw the sparring here quite as a game. Of course, to those on the other side, it feels not so fun, and did serve to make the atmosphere here much more tense.

Yes, it is certainly easy to just ignore some posts, to learn to scroll by them, or to learn what threads to avoid, or what areas to avoid...but then it becomes easiest to just stop altogether, which is what I did. I would have deregistered several months back, for various reasons (one being just lack of time, shifting interests, etc.), but instead I just changed my name because I did not want to face Brian's wrath. And, because I didn't really want to leave.

In any case, people must be what they must be, and they will show what sides they wish to display. Maybe M will change his stripes, maybe not. It's up to him. I am personally grateful to the M for teaching me a lot of things about music, and also about life, in the time we were friends and am thankful to GMG for being a place where you can meet such like minds as I have had the pleasure to meet here.

If we all could just peacefully coexist?    0:) But then again, I suppose we are but a small slice of the world with our our large membership, and the world finds that quite a hard task as well. 

I do hope those "regulars" who left will return soon. And maybe when I have time I will visit more regularly! (Ah, a pun?)

Best to all,

~Greta

[Brünnhilde forever]

Thank you, Greta, a very loving and understanding, also intelligent addition to this sad topic.

Lis

[ezodisy]

Tony, err...no.

Let me explain. This is a totally natural sequence of events. Harry has many friends on this board - including me. The sight of him being slammed without just cause is bound to incite action. That's what friends do. It's the natural order of things!

There's nothing more going on here. In the real world friends act similarly. That's why they're called friends!!

So there's no need to make this into more than it is. 

I ask you this point blank: What did Harry ever do to M? What did Harry ever do to YOU??

If Harry's not perfect in your eyes, big deal!!! You're not perfect, either. Nor I. But trying to mold someone else into one's OWN idea of perfection is an exercise in futility. Not gonna happen. EVER!!! When you get married you'll learn this!

But Harry isn't doing anything here so garish he must be burned at the stake! Like I said, if he has a fault in your eyes, fine. But from my vantage point I don't see that there's really anything to get so worked up about! You seem to be whipping yourself into a frenzy when there's nothing of danger anywhere around!!

Hence that "mountain out of a molehill" cliché comes to mind!

Anyway, given our history I think you know that if YOU were under sniper fire from someone on the board I'd be first in line to support you. That's what friends are for, right?

But, really, this Harry nitpicking of yours is really not worth the sweat.

well that's all very well, I don't really disagree with you. All I want to say is that in general terms--again--you've fallen for the Harry bull trap, i.e. no one was talking about Harry until Harry started to talk about himself, and then everyone flooded in, some with genuine comments of support, which I never confronted--why would I?--and some with comments of support which at the same time belittled someone else (M) and which, as I said, were stupid and pointless. I really sincerely genuinely do not care about Harry at all and did not even mention him until I noticed one person in particular behaving like an idiot. So, that's all I have to say. It is amazing though how he managed to make himself the centre of attention yet again, all by his own doing. Would make a great PR manager.

[Florestan]

I noticed one person in particular behaving like an idiot.

I offered you a truce, thinking you are worth it. I was obviously wrong. You're hopeless.

[ezodisy]

I offered you a truce, thinking you are worth it. I was obviously wrong. You're hopeless.

There was nothing to accept because I've already told you that I have no problem with you at all. I've always read your posts, you're obviously intelligent and polite. At the same time, I can't say I'm surprised to see that you absolutely refuse to acknowledge what you did. It's natural enough, people usually try to avoid this sort of realisation and subsequent change in behaviour. Anyway, if you were really interested in a "truce"--whatever that means--then you should consider what you're doing and ask why you haven't reconciled yourself to M's departure and instead wish to continue pushing him down as if he's still here.

[Haffner]

Wow Andy; Bach seemingly less emotional than Wagner: I am going to enjoy showing you how emotional Bach is.....you will end up happy eating the thought behind those words. Later in the week, I will write summat for you about Bach.

Cheers,

Mike

Mike, I write this not completely sure whether you were being ironic or not. I love J.S. Bach's work, and he is most certainly a very moving composer (for me the St Matthew Passion, Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring and much of the Brandenburg Concerti are phenomenally moving). It's just that Wagner tends to move me more than any other composer. Not everything Wagner did is moving (far from it, he's probably far less consistent in that area than other composers, including Bach). But, in terms of completely shattering, Life-Affirming Power only Beethoven's opus 132 has moved me as much as Wagner's music.

I think part of the impact of Wagner, for me, is the fact that unlike composers like Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven, one has to learn the language of Wagner first. The other composers speak in a language that (save for the Grosse Fuge by LvB) is fairly familiar to people whom listen to music in general. With Wagner, one has to work a bit in order to fully grasp his vocabulary, inflections, dynamics, everything. Because he revolutionised the musical language. he utilised the "studied", "conventional" language of Bach, and the later Classical era, only when he wanted to show his mastery of it (see the first act of "Die Meistersinger").

Once I fully learned his language the window I'd opened produced the most devastatingly moving experiences I've ever had in music.

Again, this is just me. I would be the last to foolishly attempt taking anything away from the monumental power and might of Herr Bach, a truly extraordinary composer.

[Florestan]

I've always read your posts, you're obviously intelligent and polite.

Why, thank you, same applies to you, although "like an idiot" is a peculiar form of politeness. But I'm not blameless in this respect, either ("don't care about your opinion" "hopeless"), so let's get over these childish recriminations. We both know better than that.

At the same time, I can't say I'm surprised to see that you absolutely refuse to acknowledge what you did. It's natural enough, people usually try to avoid this sort of realisation and subsequent change in behaviour. Anyway, if you were really interested in a "truce"--whatever that means--then you should consider what you're doing and ask why you haven't reconciled yourself to M's departure and instead wish to continue pushing him down as if he's still here.

I told M what I think of him in his virtual face and you didn't object then. What I did here was just reiterating my opinions in an already started discussion.

You don't agree with me; fine. You think what I did was wrong; fine. I don't mind in the least. Is it really necessary to have this "foolish" and "pointless"quarrel, to quote you?

Again: we think differently on M or Harry based on our experiences with them. I said what I thought, you did the same, with a few "stings" here and there. I already stated I would not comment anymore on M. Let's get over it.

[Haffner]

My last thoughts on M are that he was very valuable toward helping build my Bruckner collection. But he showed himself to be an inconsiderate moron in many other topics, so much so that his dubious "higher knowledge" in terms of the post-Wagner Romanticists got overshadowed. As F. described, his knowledge of Christianity showed pretty much zero study, he simply lashed out because most Christians are taught to let aggressive persons freek out on their own. I found his opinion of composers leading up to Bruckner to be sorely deficient and completely sterile. Ultimately, I never felt anything from his posts. Nothing inspiring, or indicative of how he felt from a performance, or from music in general. And that's where I realized that the guy really didn't add much to this forum. He would rhapsodize about the playing of a piece, or the decorum of the venue, or the intonation of the instruments, but how did so and so make him feel? Where are the posts where he got beyond the "sublime" description of a piece or performance? His anti-religionists rants were predictably popular amongst the anti-Orthodox-Christianity folks on here (including some of the silly "I'm a black metal/Beelzebub-worshipping-flash-in-the-pan" kids whom never last long on the forum or with Our Music as a rule). But they always ended up making him look like a real ignoramus, kind of a Double-Bass playing Archie Bunker.

Will I miss him? Good question. If he read up some more on religion, politics, and philosophy, and listened a bit more to composers before Bruckner, and grew up a bit, I believe M. would be a prime member of this forum. But at this point, I'm indifferent to him. When I came back to the forum I noticed he still jumped all over people, I felt both amused and yet sorry for him at the same time.  I noticed that he calmed down in his ire toward me when he was reminded that he had my address, and asked if he'd like to make all this a bit more personal.

M. really can't bother anyone, I believe, unless he's allowed to. I let him win alot of arguments both because of my religion and because it came to my attention that this forum really was his whole life. So, keeping that point in mind, I'd be just fine if he came back, because I refuse to be part of depriving anyone of something that's actually helping them to go on every day.

[ezodisy]

well, I don't really like to use the word 'wrong', Florestan, because aside from cases of rape and murder I don't really believe in such a thing. I focused on that particular moment because it looked like something of a failure of good taste, not to say it was completely unnecessary, and will remain so. That's all I have to say and feel no bad will whatsoever. I have had enough excitement for the day and it's only 3pm, I just want to take it easy for the next few hours. Let Karl and the gang come up with some witty one-liners to tide us all over until the next wave.

[adamdavid80]

Can we get back to discussing my theory that M and Gurn are one and the same?

[karlhenning]

Let Karl and the gang come up with some witty one-liners to tide us all over until the next wave.

Al vostro servizio!

Just another one-liner for the hell of it.