Bach Better Than Handel

[prémont]

Regarding Beethoven's violin concerto, my preference by far would be the cadenza Beethoven himself concocted for his transcription cum piano (the one with the timpani returning to prominence); one can hear it in all its brilliance (transcribed for piano, violin and timpani) in the Kremer/Harnoncourt rendition.

Agreed. Even Schneiderhan uses this transcribed cadenza in both his two recordings (with van Kempen and Eugene Jochum), and Christian Tetzlaff uses it in both his two recordings (with Michael Gielen and David Zinman). There may be others.

[Florestan]

Agreed. Even Schneiderhan uses this transcribed cadenza in both his two recordings (with van Kempen and Eugene Jochum), and Christian Tetzlaff uses it in both his two recordings (with Michael Gielen and David Zinman). There may be others.

Karl Boehm, Max Straub, Staatskapelle Dresden, 1939.

[prémont]

Karl Boehm, Max Straub, Staatskapelle Dresden, 1939.

Interesting, since I think I got this in a box set recently, but have not heard it yet.

[Florestan]

Interesting, since I think I got this in a box set recently, but have not heard it yet.

It's a very good performance. I reviewed it last year, but can't find the post anymore. 

[jlaurson]

Agreed. Even Schneiderhan uses this transcribed cadenza in both his two recordings ...

What do you mean: "Even Schneiderhan..."? He's the one who transcribed the cadenza... I should hope he would be using it.

(with van Kempen and Eugene Jochum), and Christian Tetzlaff uses it in both his two recordings (with Michael Gielen and David Zinman). There may be others.

I very much like Tetzlaff/Zinman... and there are others, chiefly my favorite recording of the Beethoven VC, Thomas Zehetmair's under (otherwise not always my favorite) Brueggen on Philips. {link to short review}

[prémont]

What do you mean: "Even Schneiderhan..."? He's the one who transcribed the cadenza... I should hope he would be using it.

Right, I ought to write: W.S used the transcribed cadanza too .., I apologize, small lapse of concentration, English is not my first tongue.

BTW according to Florestans post above, Max Straub used a transcription of LvB´s piano cadenza as early as 1939, when Schneiderhan was in his early twenties, so the idea of transcribing it was perhaps not Schneiderhans own.

I very much like Tetzlaff/Zinman... and there are others, chiefly my favorite recording of the Beethoven VC, Thomas Zehetmair's under (otherwise not always my favorite) Brueggen on Philips. {link to short review}

Again I have to agree with you, this time about Tetzlaff´s Beethoven concerto. But I would put Schneiderhan´s on a par with Tetzlaff´s as to nobility and beauty.

I do not know Zehetmair´s recording, similary to you I am not so keen on Brüggen´s Beethoven.

[Rod Corkin]

Not a big Handel fan here. Okay, so I've mostly heard the "popular" pieces which don't do squat for me--not really.

How about you?

Well I've heard just about every piece of Handel that has been recorded, and also all of Bach's most substantial pieces and a lot of minor trifles like his church cantatas. My conclusion is that I have no reason to disagree with Beethoven on the matter, it is Handel who is the clear and undisputed master. If you want to hear extracts from both for comparison feel free to visit my site.

[karlhenning]

My conclusion is that I have no reason to disagree with Beethoven on the matter . . . .

One can always find an historic opinion to 'affirm' one's own.  Doesn't mean that any opinion is 'truer' than another.

The bottom line, Rod, is that whatever his opinions, Beethoven actually contributed a body of work to the world's culture.  And yours is a small 'me-too' voice.

[jlaurson]

Well I've heard just about every piece of Handel that has been recorded, and also all of Bach's most substantial pieces and a lot of minor trifles like his church cantatas. My conclusion is that I have no reason to disagree with Beethoven on the matter, it is Handel who is the clear and undisputed master. If you want to hear extracts from both for comparison feel free to visit my site.

Of course, the same Beethoven also opined that Cherubini was the second best composer (after him). Not that I don't think Cherubini was a perfectly marvelous composer, but perhaps his [Beethoven's] judgment skills were not on par with his composing skills? 

(Tchaikovsky also had some very funny opinions about Brahms etc. etc. -- perhaps there's a reason why only a handful of good composers were also good music critics. [Hugo Wolf, for example, though more out of financial need than anything else.])

[Rod Corkin]

One can always find an historic opinion to 'affirm' one's own.  Doesn't mean that any opinion is 'truer' than another.

The bottom line, Rod, is that whatever his opinions, Beethoven actually contributed a body of work to the world's culture.  And yours is a small 'me-too' voice.

Then let's take Beethoven out of the equation, my conclusion is that it is Handel who is the clear and undisputed master.

[karlhenning]

Of course, the same Beethoven also opined that Cherubini was the second best composer (after him). Not that I don't think Cherubini was a perfectly marvelous composer, but perhaps his [Beethoven's] judgment skills were not on par with his composing skills? 

Well, an artist's opinions are of their time and situation;  the great art-work is for all time.

[Rod Corkin]

Of course, the same Beethoven also opined that Cherubini was the second best composer (after him).

A typical miss-quote. Beethoven said Cherubini was the greatest living composer (excluding himself) at that time. A time when there wasn't too much competition to be honest.

[karlhenning]

Then let's take Beethoven out of the equation, my conclusion is that it is Handel who is the clear and undisputed master.

"The clear and undisputed master," and Bach need not apply, eh?

There's a bin over in the corner for all the exaggeratedly eccentric opinions.

Edit :: typos

[prémont]

Then let's take Beethoven out of the equation, my conclusion is that it is Handel who is the clear and undisputed master.

This discussion remains futile and purpose-less. 

[Florestan]

Surely Beethoven also had Bach's "Goldberg" Variations in mind when composing the Diabellis.  -Jacob Greenberg

How I like this cliche: X surely had in mind Y when composing / writing / painting Z...

Absent the artist's own testimony, one can only infer what he had in mind.

IMHO, what Beethoven surely had in mind when composing the Diabelli Variations was composing the Diabelli Variations. 

[jlaurson]

How I like this cliche: X surely had in mind Y when composing / writing / painting Z...

Absent the artist's own testimony, one can only infer what he had in mind.

IMHO, what Beethoven surely had in mind when composing the Diabelli Variations was composing the Diabelli Variations. 

1.) I petition that whenever someone cannot resist using the abbreviated form of "I'm gonna say it but don't ask me to back it up with anything" [=IM(H)O] at all, he or she at least drop the disingenuous "H" from it. 


Better drop it altogether, because it's implied in a statement of opinion, anyway... and we can all recognize them as such.

2.) That said, comparisons and suppositions, especially when they could be backed up, as in this case, are actually quite useful.

And it's difficult not to hear Bach in the Diabelli Variations, whether we have a note from Beethoven about it, or not. (The note is in the notes, if you grant me this inane pun.)

Katchen's recording of it is happily coupled with the Diabelli Variations which makes it even more obvious how variation no.8 or variation no.20 have a musical kinship with op.111's variation movement. In variation no.24 (Fughetta: Andante), Bach gets his due in a fashion that might have you forget you are listening to Beethoven. Variation 31 (Largo, molto espressivo) is fingered unto the keyboard with gentle, almost fortepiano-like delicacy by Katchen before he throws himself into the penultimate variation, that towering Fugue that serves as grand contrast to the sweetly little Minuet that Diabelli's waltz becomes after this traversal.

("Landscape with Beethoven, WETA")

[Florestan]

I stand by what I said: one can infer from the music itself that Beethoven thought of Bach at some point when composing those variations. But that he surely had Bach in mind while composing the whole lot, that no one can know.

[karlhenning]

How I like this cliché: X surely had in mind Y when composing / writing / painting Z...

Absent the artist's own testimony, one can only infer what he had in mind.

IMHO, what Beethoven surely had in mind when composing the Diabelli Variations was composing the Diabelli Variations. 

Closely related to the cliché:  X would surely adore work Z by composer Y [if he had lived to hear it].

[karlhenning]

look into this a little deeper.

James, you're so funny!  When anyone disagrees with you (and I am afraid it is clear that Andrei has the advantage in this dispute), the other person is 'wrong' and he would acknowledge that you are possessed of The Truth, if only he 'look into this a little deeper'.

I pity a mind so small that it cannot grant anyone with a different viewpoint the benefit of the doubt.

[Gabriel]

A typical miss-quote. Beethoven said Cherubini was the greatest living composer (excluding himself) at that time. A time when there wasn't too much competition to be honest.

Not too much competition according to you, of course.