GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Great Recordings and Reviews => Topic started by: Bunny on April 12, 2007, 09:40:31 AM

Title: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bunny on April 12, 2007, 09:40:31 AM
Although we have a thread dedicated to HIP music, Mozart's output was so great that I think that a thread dedicated to HIP recordings of his works is necessary.  So, I am honored to start the new Mozart HIP thread. ;D

Here are a few of the great HIP Mozart recordings that I love:
Andrew Manze and the English Concert: Eine Kleine Nachtmusik
René Jacobs: Le Nozze di Figaro
Jos van Immerseel: Complete Solo Clavier-Concerte
Bilson Gardiner: Complete Piano Concertos
Tafelmusik: Symphonies 40 & 41

(http://www.harmoniamundi.com/Publish/album/883/907280_G.jpg) (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B0001HZ728.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_V46035583_AA240_.jpg) (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000003UWY.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg) (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00002DEGZ.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg) (http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/35/939335.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 12, 2007, 10:17:31 AM
Just bought the Ronald Brautigam Piano Sonatas set a few months ago, and have the Piano Concertos w/ Bilson & Gardiner in the mail - should arrive early next week, if not sooner.

But, looking forward to other recommendations -  :D

(http://ec2.images-amazon.com/images/P/B0000016P2.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg)  (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00002DEGZ.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg)

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bunny on April 12, 2007, 11:59:38 AM
I've just listed this article in the Beethoven thread, but I think is should be listed here as well:

Robert Levin wrote a very informative and interesting paper as the keynote address at a conference at Cornell University on the 28th of March, 2003 about Mozart and the Keyboard Culture of  his Time that I would love to recommend to all the hipsters here.  In it he discusses the nature of keyboard performance, improvisation and variation; how Mozart helped his sister "fake" improvisation by composing modulating preludes and other pseudo-improvisations, which she evidently memorized and performed as if she were spontaneously inventing them. (Levin, p.4); as well as discussing the construction of the fortepianos of the day and how that affected the music composed for them.

Have fun reading!

http://www.biu.ac.il/hu/mu/min-ad04/LevinMOZART.pdf (http://www.biu.ac.il/hu/mu/min-ad04/LevinMOZART.pdf)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: lukeottevanger on April 12, 2007, 01:20:49 PM
another vote for bilson/gardiner, heard a few of these, quite nice...

Am I wrong to find this positivity confusing, in the light of what you've ben saying re. the misguidedness of HIP keyboard in Mozart and Haydn on the Haydn thread?  ;) :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on April 12, 2007, 08:39:44 PM
Some choral music recommendations.
This set with 10 of the masses has marvelous performances.
Beautiful fleet performances, not the more "Haydnesque", accented approach like Harnoncourt.
Vocal contributions by the likes of Schlick, Frimmer, Prégardien and Mertens.
He gives in the C minor Hogwood a run for his money. Maybe not a set not to replace all favourites of the major pieces but ideal to "fill the gaps" on the other masses in a superb, most satisfying way.
BTW sound ('88-'91) is excellent

Recommended! (buget price)                             For the requiem my absolute favourite is Bruno Weil:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/2279791.jpg)           (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00004S38S.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_V45142968_AA240_.jpg)
 (http://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Requiem-Harry-van-Kamp/dp/B00004S38S)                                                                           click picture for link

And this one - excellent fun! :D

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000AL8ZFG.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_V46441901_AA240_.jpg)

Q

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bunny on April 13, 2007, 04:38:20 AM
Que, I see that the Mozart Requiem now has a new cover!  As it's also still available in its older artwork, for those interested in purchasing this could you let us know whether it has also been remastered?  Below are the older and new covers for the Requiem:

(http://sonymusic.com/images/selection/200/60764cvr.jpg)  (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00004S38S.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_V45142968_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bunny on April 13, 2007, 05:02:04 AM
Here is the quartet version of Eine Kleine Nachtmusik - K. 525 (by the Salomon Quartet with Christopher Hogwood and the Academy of Ancient Music) on period instruments:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/db/3b/24de828fd7a0caa29da6f010.L.jpg)  (http://)

The Gran Partita by both Hogwood and Harnoncourt (although the 4 cd set pictured is oop, individual
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/e3/48/6100a2c008a0397298452010.L.jpg)  (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/b9/bc/0c31228348a03997bd6be010.L.jpg)

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on April 13, 2007, 07:26:30 AM
Que, I see that the Mozart Requiem now has a new cover!  As it's also still available in its older artwork, for those interested in purchasing this could you let us know whether it has also been remastered?  Below are the older and new covers for the Requiem:

(http://sonymusic.com/images/selection/200/60764cvr.jpg)  (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00004S38S.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_V45142968_AA240_.jpg)

The second is a (temporal) promotional issue - I pictured that version because of its availability and attractive price... :D I have the one with the first cover myself.

BTW I forgot to mention my favourite recording of the Mass in C minor:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00000E43Q.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_V46768099_AA240_.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bunny on April 13, 2007, 09:20:10 AM
Yes!  I agree with that.

I almost forgot, but I have finally found a copy of the 6 Symphonies after Serenades for sale. Sometimes things are closer at hand than you can imagine. :D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on April 13, 2007, 09:49:30 AM
Yes!  I agree with that.

I almost forgot, but I have finally found a copy of the 6 Symphonies after Serenades for sale. Sometimes things are closer at hand than you can imagine. :D

Good news Bunny!  :D
One has to be lucky once in a while..

(http://ec2.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000026I5F.03._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bunny on April 13, 2007, 11:08:20 AM
Good news Bunny!  :D
One has to be lucky once in a while..

(http://ec2.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000026I5F.03._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg)

Q

Too bad the bill is coming when I also have my taxes to pay. :(
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bogey on April 13, 2007, 11:35:01 AM
You just sentenced Gurn to an "informal" thesis Bunny. :) 8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on April 13, 2007, 11:47:27 AM
Time to call in Gurn's favourite: L'Archibudelli... :D
I've gathered these till now - all no less than splendid!


(http://image.allmusic.com/00/acg/cov200/cl000/l066/l06643djn1l.jpg)    (http://image.allmusic.com/00/acg/cov200/cl000/l075/l07513unyx2.jpg) 

(http://image.allmusic.com/00/acg/cov200/cl000/l076/l076176yt05.jpg)    (http://image.allmusic.com/00/acg/cov200/cl000/l065/l06569tp5el.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bunny on April 13, 2007, 12:39:08 PM
OMG!!! You found Ein musikalischer Spaß!  That's the only one that I still am looking for.  Eventually it will turn up (I hope).
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bunny on April 13, 2007, 12:50:26 PM
I recently picked up this as well, but haven't had a chance to give it a spin.  It's strange to see such a glaring error in grammar on an album cover.  It's a reminder that not every record company is English speaking.

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/84/946184.jpg)

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 13, 2007, 01:13:14 PM
I recently picked up this as well, but haven't had a chance to give it a spin.  It's strange to see such a glaring error in grammar on an album cover.  It's a reminder that not every record company is English speaking.

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/84/946184.jpg)



;D  Yes, that IS amusing. Apparently the pianos own the concerto?   ;)

Then there are these two:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000002APJ.01._SCMZZZZZZZ_AA130_.jpg)

Rats, tiny picture! It's the quintets, K 515 & 516. :)

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B0000028Z3.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_V46986079_AA240_.jpg)

That's the lot, I am in a similar situation to you, Bunny, that rascally Que got the last extant copy of "The Musical Joke"... :D

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bunny on April 13, 2007, 05:14:27 PM
;D  Yes, that IS amusing. Apparently the pianos own the concerto?   ;)

Then there are these two:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000002APJ.01._SCMZZZZZZZ_AA130_.jpg)

Rats, tiny picture! It's the quintets, K 515 & 516. :)

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B0000028Z3.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_V46986079_AA240_.jpg)

That's the lot, I am in a similar situation to you, Bunny, that rascally Que got the last extant copy of "The Musical Joke"... :D

8)

I suppose the Spaß is on us. ;D  :P

No!  Only one of the pianos owns the concerto; but who's parsing here?  ;)



Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on April 13, 2007, 11:10:37 PM
Apart from the superb cycle of the fortepiano concertos on Channel Classics, recommended earlier, Jos van Immerseel has continued his excellent Mozart on Zig Zag Territoires (http://www.zigzag-territoires.com/sommaire.php3?lang=en):

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/7894064.jpg)  (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/8596859.jpg)

Recommended!

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bunny on April 14, 2007, 05:33:24 AM
Apart from the superb cycle of the fortepiano concertos on Channel Classics, recommended earlier, Jos van Immerseel has continued his excellent Mozart on Zig Zag Territoires (http://www.zigzag-territoires.com/sommaire.php3?lang=en):

Recommended!

Q

Concur!
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 14, 2007, 09:47:20 AM
Piano Concertos w/ Bilson & Gardiner - arrived yesterday (earlier than expected!) - now listening to just the first disc & enjoying the fortepiano; also have the Anda & Schiff sets, and need to do some comparisons (will likely like all sets, so not bad to 'pick & choose' when the right mood suits) -  :)

(http://www.iclassics.com/content/assets/selection/5/4505E.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bunny on April 15, 2007, 05:25:22 AM
Happy listening, SonicMan!

Here are two more excellent recordings from Jos van Immerseel and Midori Seiler. 

(http://ec2.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00006JIPV.01.jpg)  (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000BDGBOU.01.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bunny on April 15, 2007, 05:29:25 AM
The Mozart violin concertos are very well represented, perhaps as a result of the past anniversary year which was marked by an avalanche of new Mozart recordings.  Here are two other great violin concerti recordings which actually compliment each other very well.  Biondi's recording has the concerti 1-3 and Manze's recording has concerti 3-5. 

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000BU9974.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_V44129202_SS500_.jpg) (http://ec2.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000CPHBR8.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_V46815687_SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bunny on April 17, 2007, 06:37:52 AM
Just arrived in the mail:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/30/71/a041224b9da0cf5b7767b010.L.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on April 17, 2007, 07:14:35 AM
Just arrived in the mail:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/30/71/a041224b9da0cf5b7767b010.L.jpg)

Bunny, top performance IMO.  :)
And it's different from the Immerseel recording - so a very nice addition.

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bunny on April 17, 2007, 09:30:50 AM
Que,  I just finished listening, and must agree with you completely.  I am very satisfied, and am happily awaiting the delivery of the 18th and 19th piano concertos.  Unfortunately, I ordered them through amazon so the wait is very long.  >:(

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/3a/c2/2086224128a0b8209ba6b010.L.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on April 23, 2007, 11:01:33 AM
With special thanks to our esteemed forum member Mozart, formerly known as Mozart Mobster.
I can't imagine any better recommendation!  :)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/1140688.jpg)

Q

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bunny on April 23, 2007, 11:09:03 AM
Still waiting for Staier...

Here are the Salomon String Quartet's recordings of Mozart's quartets and the London Fortepiano Trios recording of the piano trios.
(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/6162579.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/6102294.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/6162597.jpg)

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bunny on April 23, 2007, 12:36:09 PM

Bunny, how are those? I was also considering these reissues of the recordings by the Mozartean Players:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/4119AK39YFL._AA240_.jpg)  (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00006I498.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_V44125514_AA240_.jpg)

Also reissued like this:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51G20YXTRDL._AA240_.jpg)

Q



Que
, I have the London Fortepiano Trio's recording on request at the library, but have not yet gotten them.  I have heard so many positive things about the London fortepiano Trio that I could not resist posting them. 
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 23, 2007, 01:21:28 PM

Bunny, how are those? I was also considering these reissues of the recordings by the Mozartean Players:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/4119AK39YFL._AA240_.jpg)  (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00006I498.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_V44125514_AA240_.jpg)

Q


Q,
I have those and was quite pleased with them. The fortepianist with that group is Steven Lubin, who we have talked about here already, a very good one, and the string players are good too. I haven't heard the others (LFT), but haven't really missed them, although they are by all accounts excellent. :-\

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bogey on April 23, 2007, 04:26:58 PM
Any thoughts on this cd?

(http://www.hogwood.org/cdcover/smozart.jpg)

The recording presents a selection of private views of Mozart’s keyboard music including some of his most personal miniatures, in this, the anniversary year of his death. The music is performed on three clavichords including some on Mozart’s own keyboard, now housed at the Geburtshaus in Salzburg. It was on this instrument that extraordinarily, Mozart composed the The Magic Flute, Clemenza di Tito, the Requiem and a Masonic Cantata, all in the space of five months. Christopher’s careful selection of works, ranging from the Adagio for Glass Harmonica and Marche Funebre (K453a) to the Sonata in D (K381) for four hands (performed with Derek Adlam,) provides a unique view of some of the more rarely heard works of this great master.

Sound samples can be found here:

http://www.hogwood.org/

Just click on recordings and then The Secret Mozart.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 23, 2007, 04:31:40 PM
Any thoughts on this cd?

(http://www.hogwood.org/cdcover/smozart.jpg)

The recording presents a selection of private views of Mozart’s keyboard music including some of his most personal miniatures, in this, the anniversary year of his death. The music is performed on three clavichords including some on Mozart’s own keyboard, now housed at the Geburtshaus in Salzburg. It was on this instrument that extraordinarily, Mozart composed the The Magic Flute, Clemenza di Tito, the Requiem and a Masonic Cantata, all in the space of five months. Christopher’s careful selection of works, ranging from the Adagio for Glass Harmonica and Marche Funebre (K453a) to the Sonata in D (K381) for four hands (performed with Derek Adlam,) provides a unique view of some of the more rarely heard works of this great master.

Sound samples can be found here:

http://www.hogwood.org/

Just click on recordings and then The Secret Mozart.

I am very pleased with it, but then, I love clavichord music anyway, and this presents a certainly different perspective on some rather well known (to me, anyway) works. Sound is great, playing is fine, music is Mozart. Say no more, nudge, nudge... :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bogey on April 23, 2007, 04:33:39 PM
I am very pleased with it, but then, I love clavichord music anyway, and this presents a certainly different perspective on some rather well known (to me, anyway) works. Sound is great, playing is fine, music is Mozart. Say no more, nudge, nudge... :)

8)

Would you go ahead and throw the Secret Handel cd in the cart as well? :)

(http://www.hogwood.org/cdcover/shandel.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 23, 2007, 05:16:15 PM
Would you go ahead and throw the Secret Handel cd in the cart as well? :)

(http://www.hogwood.org/cdcover/shandel.jpg)

Since I don't know any solo keyboard works by Händel, I would do so with the thought that this would be the most favorable way for ME to learn some... :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bunny on April 27, 2007, 07:35:02 AM
The Secret Mozart is now available from the BMG music clubs, and at that price I'm buying. ;)

Unfortunately I haven't seen the Secret Händel there. :(
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bunny on April 27, 2007, 10:14:25 AM
Here's a brilliant recording by Andreas Stein and Christine Schornsheim from Harmonia Mundi of assorted preludes, sonatas, variations and other keyboard works by Mozart performed on a unique instrument that combines a 3 manual harpsichord at one end and a fortepiano with moderator stop at the other end.  The tonal variety fo this instrument as played by these two virtuosos is stunning.  Be sure to listen carefully to track 10, which is an improvisation by the two musicians.  The fact that such an instrument would have been made in 1777 demonstrates that the harpsichord was still being used along side the piano far longer than I would have suspected. 

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0794881834129.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on April 28, 2007, 02:13:55 AM
(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/5264490.jpg)
               Audio samples (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/lang/en/currency/GBP/hnum/6629764/rk/classic/rsk/hitlist)

My HIP Gran Partita thread on the old forum got derailed by some grumpy complaint on HIP threads.... ;D
(Won't ever get into a debate on that btw.. 8))

Anyway, after auditioning Brüggen, Hogwood, Herreweghe, Ensemble Zefiro - I already had Ensemble Philidor - I went with my instincts and got this one. And I'm glad I did! :)

This is new generation HIP: crystal clear, non-cranky playing, articulated with immaculate precision and gusto.
The recording is very neutral, open and "airy", which enhances the feeling of a grown up, mature and tasteful performance. But with the infectious joy any Mozart recording must have. A very nice strong pulse in the famous adagio btw - which keeps it alive... ;)
A performance that is probing and full of character and colour at the same time - strongly recommended.

Q


Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bunny on April 28, 2007, 10:40:40 AM
Que, that looks very, very nice!  I actually was able to find a used copy of the Harnoncourt locally, and am very satisfied.  Didn't Hoeprich also do a recording of the clarinet quintet recently?

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/b9/bc/0c31228348a03997bd6be010.L.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bunny on April 28, 2007, 12:24:07 PM
You have been busy!  I hope your wallet is up to the depredations! 
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on April 29, 2007, 02:23:43 AM
I just got the Mozart clarinet quintet with the London Haydn Quartet and Eric Hoeprich (Glossa) - pictured left. And it's very good. As it happens I already had a very good performance by Jean-Claude Veilhan/ Stadler Quintet (K617) - pictured right (reissue, previously available in alternative couplings - I have the Mozart coupled with the concerto myself)

I played both performances twice this morning! :) And it's a very close race with no clear winner.
What are the (subtle) differences? The recording with Hoeprich is a bit slower, more sharply articulated and analytical - mainly because of the "straight" string playing. The Veilhan has a more mellow feel to it, although it's swifter, and has more charm. In the end I think I will prefer the Veilhan recording which seduces, instead of the recording with Hoeprich which is maybe a bit to severe for my taste.
I'll post on the Brahms later on the HIP Romantics thread (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,159.msg12295.html#msg12295) - I have a feeling the Brahms will suit the probing style of the players on Glossa better.

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/6049199.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/4809038.jpg)


And now we are on the subject of HIP Mozart clarinet recordings ( ;D): I can strongly recommend two other recordings with Jean-Claude Veilhan!

(http://a526.g.akamai.net/7/526/14067/v1/img.priceminister.com/photo/286585613_L.jpg) (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/511A0GCJC7L._AA240_.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bunny on April 29, 2007, 07:50:09 AM
I have the Brahms quintet by Veilhan and the Stadler Quintet in it's earlier incarnation (with the Krehl clarinet quintet) and that is one of my favorite recordings.  It's an extremely intense and moving interpretation.  Now I'll start looking for his Mozart as I admire this clarinettist immensely. :)

It's also interesting to see that they reissued the Brahms, but this time paired with the Mozart quintet. 

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Haffner on April 29, 2007, 08:18:06 AM
Que, that looks very, very nice!  I actually was able to find a used copy of the Harnoncourt locally, and am very satisfied.  Didn't Hoeprich also do a recording of the clarinet quintet recently?

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/b9/bc/0c31228348a03997bd6be010.L.jpg)



I'd love to find this one!
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on April 29, 2007, 07:54:52 PM
Out of the box, which recordings would you recommend?  Is this the box set which you refer to?

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/31NHTMY7Q9L._AA240_.jpg)

Yes, that's it. :) It has 4 CD's. Highlights are the 5 divertimeni for three basset horns, the clarinet quartets (both pictured in the post above), and the clarinet quintet. Enjoyable is the disc with divertimenti on the Marriage of Figaro and works by Stadler. Nice, but not more than that, is the clarinet concerto conducted by Malgoire (coupled with the quintet). A great bargain - slimmed down booklets though!

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bunny on April 30, 2007, 04:55:37 AM
Que, it wasn't a bargain when I saw it at Amazon for about $106.00 new -- from Caiman, no less.  ::)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on May 11, 2007, 09:19:37 PM
The last of my Mozart purchases on Glossa with clarinetist Hoeprich.
And this another hit after the Gran Partita. :)
Brüggen provides a relaxed but very fresh, transparent and rhythmically articulated orchestral part.
Hoeprich has a beautiful rounded tone but with very clear cut phrasing. The whole performance is like that: relaxed but fresh and sharp at the same time - momentum is kept. Like in the slow movement there is a good pulse: the music is not smoothed over or milked for sentiment, no dragging of feet... A winner!
Btw, I already have Pay/Hogwood and Veilhan/Malgoire, but this will be my favourite.

A minor reservation: I usually don't mind, but a duration of 60 minutes and a coupling with an overture, two arias (all from La Clemenza di Tito), a short adagio and a short but beautiful " Maurerische Trauermusik" IMO does not present a good lay out. You're basically getting this for the concerto, with some "frills" as encores.
Worthwhile nevertheless!

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/5278563.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on May 13, 2007, 01:36:04 AM
Another recent aquisition.
Mozart's harpsichord concertos!
Bought as a supplement to the cycle of fortepiano concertos with Van Immerseel (nos. 5-28)

Excellent performances and these concertos, consisting of arrangements of keyboard music by Raupach, Schobert, Honauer, Eckard  and C.P.E. Bach, are successful accomplishements of the very young Mozart! :)

Q

(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/41SZ057T89L._AA240_.jpg)
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.jpc.de/mp3/343/3432608_05.mp3[/mp3]
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.jpc.de/mp3/343/3432608_10.mp3[/mp3]
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on July 14, 2007, 01:30:47 AM
Hope we can get this thread going again.... :)

Just got a nice HIP Mozart recording.
Les Adieux is an excellent HIP ensemble that has recorded with Andreas Staier (Mozart piano quartets - DHM) and recently with Erich Hoeprich (Mozart clarinet quartets - NCA).The fugues are arrangements by Mozart from works by J.S. Bach and one by W.F. Bach. Very interesting and very beautiful works!
I already had some of these recorded by L'Archibudelli, this interpretation is less austere and gruff, more flowing and lyrical with a more mellow touch.

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w300/front/0/7930074.jpg)
                   Samples (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/7930074/rk/classic/rsk/hitlist)

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Tancata on July 14, 2007, 03:34:57 AM
What do you guys think of Rene Jacobs - Mozart Symphonies 38 and 41?

(http://www.resmusica.com/images/hm_mozart_38et41_jacobs.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on July 21, 2007, 11:20:51 PM
What do you guys think of Rene Jacobs - Mozart Symphonies 38 and 41?

(http://www.resmusica.com/images/hm_mozart_38et41_jacobs.jpg)

Tancata, please drop a short note on what you make of that recording - I'm very curious. :)


Going through this very modest thread, I missed an important favourite of mine and of quite a few other members. The violin sonatas with David Breitman (pianoforte) & Jean-Francois Rivest (violin) on Analekta. Two slim double CD's and attractively priced at Amazon.com. One of the great tips I picked up on this forum. Marvelous performances: colourful and intense, but also very playful and witty - how Mozart should sound like. And there is real chemistry between these players. Strongly recommended.

Click on pictures for audio samples.

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0774204982126.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/lang/en/currency/GBP/hnum/6629764/rk/classic/rsk/hitlist)  (http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0774204982324.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/lang/en/currency/GBP/rsk/hitlist/rk/classic/hnum/4116044)

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Mozart on July 21, 2007, 11:27:06 PM
Ohh man, I want this one!


(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/511A0GCJC7L._AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Mozart on July 21, 2007, 11:30:48 PM
Piano Concertos w/ Bilson & Gardiner - arrived yesterday (earlier than expected!) - now listening to just the first disc & enjoying the fortepiano; also have the Anda & Schiff sets, and need to do some comparisons (will likely like all sets, so not bad to 'pick & choose' when the right mood suits) -  :)

(http://www.iclassics.com/content/assets/selection/5/4505E.jpg)

I was along time fan of the Gardiner set, but Anda has won me over. When I listen to it I think to myself, this must be the exact sound Mozart wanted  :) Its also nice to not have to hear Beethoven's bizarre cadenzas for the 20th pc.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Mozart on July 21, 2007, 11:38:25 PM
I just got this,I'm quite excited about it.
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/612AJYA5NML._SS500_.jpg)

I've never been much into cosi, but maybe this recording will spark some interest.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on July 21, 2007, 11:41:19 PM
I was along time fan of the Gardiner set, but Anda has won me over. When I listen to it I think to myself, this must be the exact sound Mozart wanted  :) Its also nice to not have to hear Beethoven's bizarre cadenzas for the 20th pc.

I was impressed with Anda, but for really "extra-special" (IMO): give Van Immerseel on Channel Classics a shot. That set is now availble at budget price. I was going trough it lately and my impression was again: must have!

Click on picture for samples.
If you or anyone else is interested, I could upload a concerto in good sound quality! :)

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/12/36312.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Concertos-Immerseel-fortepiano-Orchestra/dp/B000003UWY)

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Mozart on July 22, 2007, 12:04:07 AM
Hmmm well I just about previewed about every movement and I think I'll stick to Anda :) It just seems a little tame.

** Maybe I am to loyal to my favorite recordings, once I find my favorite I will listen to nothing else :) I've had many recordings of Figaro but I'll only listen to one.  :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Tancata on July 22, 2007, 01:55:23 AM
And now we are on the subject of HIP Mozart clarinet recordings ( ;D): I can strongly recommend two other recordings with Jean-Claude Veilhan!

(http://a526.g.akamai.net/7/526/14067/v1/img.priceminister.com/photo/286585613_L.jpg) (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/511A0GCJC7L._AA240_.jpg)

Q

Hmm...I think I'll put these on my wish-list. The only recording of the Clarinet Concerto I have is a beastly modern instruments version. It's actually perfectly decent, but I would love to hear that piece HIPped up a little.

BTW, still haven't got the Rene Jacobs Symphonies. It was raining heavily here on Friday so the post wasn't delivered  ::)...perhaps Monday!  :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 22, 2007, 02:48:57 AM

(http://www.analekta.com/data/images/9821-2anh.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/lang/en/currency/GBP/hnum/6629764/rk/classic/rsk/hitlist)  (http://www.analekta.com/data/images/9823-4anh.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/lang/en/currency/GBP/rsk/hitlist/rk/classic/hnum/4116044)

Q

Visiting my son in Indiana this weekend - been checking in but not posting much; however, I must 'second' Q's recommendation above; I just purchased these 'double-CDs' recently, and thoroughly enjoyed the performances - top notch & great value!   :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on July 22, 2007, 08:00:20 AM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/511A0GCJC7L._AA240_.jpg)

Interesting...

Could this be a transcription disc? Or a disc of fragments?

Much as I wish otherwise Mozart never wrote a clarinet quartet, at least in finished form.




Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on July 22, 2007, 08:39:13 AM
Interesting...

Could this be a transcription disc? Or a disc of fragments?

Much as I wish otherwise Mozart never wrote a clarinet quartet, at least in finished form.

Donwyn, according to the liner notes, these works were published in 1799 as op.79 by Mozart, three years before the publication of the clarinet quintet by the same publisher, Johann André.
They are arrangements of violin sonatas KV 378/317d & KV 380/374f, and piano trio KV 496. It's unknown if Mozart did the arrangements himself but they are probably by André, who did various arrangements of works by Mozart. In any case - they sound really beautiful! :)

BTW, the "other" HIP clarinetist - Erich Hoeprich - recently did these works too on NCA (click on picture for link).

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/1494710.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/1494710/rk/classic/rsk/hitlist)

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on July 22, 2007, 09:46:27 AM
Donwyn, according to the liner notes, these works were published in 1799 as op.79 by Mozart, three years before the publication of the clarinet quintet by the same publisher, Johann André.
They are arrangements of violin sonatas KV 378/317d & KV 380/374f, and piano trio KV 496. It's unknown if Mozart did the arrangements himself but they are probably by André, who did various arrangements of works by Mozart. In any case - they sound really beautiful! :)

BTW, the "other" HIP clarinetist - Erich Hoeprich - recently did these works too on NCA (click on picture for link).

Thanks for the info, Q!

I bet they do sound beautiful!

Anything pairing Mozart and the clarinet is bound to be a hit. Arrangements or whatnot.

And speaking of beautiful, if those two covers are anything to go by K617 has some of the more striking cover art in all CD land.

Good for tickling the little impulse buyer in me!


Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 22, 2007, 10:02:52 AM
I have the 317d_378 one on a L'Archibudelli disk with Niedich on clarinet. I think it's a wonderful arrangement, no matter who did it. I would dearly love to have the others (4 total, isn't it?). Thanks for the tip, see if I can find that. :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Tancata on July 23, 2007, 02:50:11 PM
(http://www.resmusica.com/images/hm_mozart_38et41_jacobs.jpg)

Mozart Symphonies 38 & 41 / Jacobs

So, this arrived today and has been spun twice.  :) I don't have another version of Symphony 38, so I can't comment specifically on that, but I have two very strong impressions of the performance so far.

(i) Transparent textures: It's really striking how see-through the sound is. Most obvious is the scrape of the cello and bass, along with the space around the rich winds. The instruments don't blend - they detach. I rather like this - it brings a lot of things into focus which I hadn't really heard before.

(ii) ADD conducting: In certain movements, Jacobs gets very fiddly. He speeds up...slows down...suddenly goes quiet...OH LOOK HE GOT REALLY LOUD, WOW! In the Jupiter, this is most evident in the first movement. He also changes pace in the middle of phrases, rushing up to his next big bang. There's a kind of jabbering speech-like rhythm to it, though - when he comes back to the three blows which start the symphony off, he runs over them quickly, more like a recap than a re-statement. The effect of all this showy stuff is a bit unsettling. My stomach feels pushed and pulled around the place, and it doesn't do anything at all for the flow of the music  :-\. He plays it straight(er) for the rest of the Jupiter though. And the small forces do bring out the juxtaposed lines in the finale well.

The playing is excellent and colourful, and all the players can more than deal with their individual exposure, but I think the Freiburger Barockorchester weren't brilliantly served by the conducting decisions. I don't know if this is a CD for the long-term, but perhaps I would come around more if I forget the other performances I've heard...  ::) I like the performance of no. 38 much more, possibly because I'm new to it.

It is certainly interesting to hear how Jacobs handles purely instrumental music, though.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Mozart on July 23, 2007, 11:08:26 PM
Anyone have a good recommendation for Mozart's kegelstatt trio k.498? I have been dying to listen to it for months but the library doesn't have a recording.

viola piano and clarinet it has to be amazing right?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 24, 2007, 03:05:13 AM
Anyone have a good recommendation for Mozart's kegelstatt trio k.498? I have been dying to listen to it for months but the library doesn't have a recording.

viola piano and clarinet it has to be amazing right?

It IS amazing. A very nice piece, which is typical of Mozart when he was writing for himself and his friends to play (thus the viola rather than the violin).

I have (as with most Mozart) 2 versions. One modern, one HIP. The modern one is on a Philips Duo, the one of the Beaux Arts Trio's "Complete Piano Trios", but it isn't the BAT playing this piece (don't have it here, so I can't tell you exactly, but hard to make a mistake). The HIP version is L'Archibudelli with Charles Neidich, which is still available cheap at Amazon (or was 2 weeks ago  :-\ ).

I would be willing to bet there are a lot of nice versions out there, it is a very popular work, rightly so. :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on September 16, 2007, 09:00:51 AM
The HIP scene is starting to get sci-fi features: things are developping at light speed and are getting more amazing by the day! ;D  After the resurrection of the lute-harpsichord (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lautenwerck) (Lautenwerck) and the clavichord (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clavichord),
next is the Tangentenflügel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangent_piano) (tangent piano)!

This is the first release of a new German label: "Ludi Musici".
Two SACD's in a booklet with 6 violin sonatas by Mozart with a Tangentenflügel (and an interview in German) - isn't it fascinating? Anton Steck is a superb baroque violinist and the sound of the Tangentenflügel, played by Marieke Spaans, is very cute IMO.

Online Review (http://www.audaud.com/article.php?ArticleID=3264)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/7640131810012.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/7808456?rk=classic&rsk=hitlist)[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.jpc.de/mp3/780/7808456_01.mp3[/mp3]
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.jpc.de/mp3/780/7808456_04.mp3[/mp3]
Longer samples of higher quality can be found here (http://www.antonsteck.de/index.php?option=com_xemusicgal&Itemid=76) (tracks 5-9) and here (http://www.prelude-klassiekemuziek.nl/mozart_ludi_musici.html).

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 05, 2007, 02:55:34 AM
Did anyone got this intriguing beauty already? :)

(http://www.snijders-hifi.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/27d3fc73809a7ca38420efbc27264356.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/lang/en/currency/EUR/hnum/3178986/rk/classic/rsk/hitlist)
              click pic for link

Q

No, but I will. Thanks for the link, Q!

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on October 22, 2007, 01:18:05 AM
(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/10/1006910.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/lang/en/currency/EUR/hnum/3178986/rk/classic/rsk/hitlist)
              click pic for link

I got just it. I rarely buy brand new issues, but this was on special offer. ;)

How is it? I'm giving this a qualified recommendation only...
I'll make some comparisons with the issue on ZIG ZAG of the concerto for two (forte)pianos KV 365, conducted by Jos Van Immerseel - pictured below. 
First, I have some reservations concerning the balance between the orchestra, the Haydn Sinfonietta Wien (http://www.haydn.or.at/de/frameset.htm), and the fortepianos. The orchestra sounds too BIG and as one "block", which hinders properly highlighting different solos within the orchestra and overpowers the fortepianos, which in their turn sound too recessed - though mainly in KV 365 and considerably less so in the other pieces. But the Haydn Sinfonietta is substantially bigger (counted 39 members on their site) than Immerseel's orchestra "Anima Eterna": 28 members. And small is beautiful: In Immerseel's recording the interplay between the solos in the orchestra and the fortepiano's is delightfully showcased and the orchestral sound picture is wonderfully transparent - hear it once and you'll never want anything else.
Besides the orchestra souding too "massive" (mind: relatively speaking - we're talking HIP here! ;D) the conducting is not in the same class as Van Immerseel - who is IMO a "visionary" in Mozart on the level of René Jacobs in the operas. So less distinctive conducting, but it still is all cheery and upbeat and does not sound "wrong" in terms of phrasing and rhythmic treatment either. The soloists Brautigam and Lubimov are superb. The have wonderfull instruments made after Walther.

(http://discplus.ch/login/1547894/shop/upload/32874.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: hautbois on October 22, 2007, 06:59:06 AM
(http://www.snijders-hifi.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/27d3fc73809a7ca38420efbc27264356.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/lang/en/currency/EUR/hnum/3178986/rk/classic/rsk/hitlist)
              click pic for link

I got just it. I rarely buy brand new issues, but this was on special offer. ;)

How is it? I'm giving this a qualified recommendation only...
I'll make some comparisons with the issue on ZIG ZAG of the concerto for two (forte)pianos KV 365, conducted by Jos Van Immerseel - pictured below. 
First, I have some reservations concerning the balance between the orchestra, the Haydn Sinfonietta Wien (http://www.haydn.or.at/de/frameset.htm), and the fortepianos. The orchestra sounds too BIG and as one "block", which hinders properly highlighting different solos within the orchestra and overpowers the fortepianos, which in their turn sound too recessed - though mainly in KV 365 and considerably less so in the other pieces. But the Haydn Sinfonietta is substantially bigger (counted 39 members on their site) than Immerseel's orchestra "Anima Eterna": 28 members. And small is beautiful: In Immerseel's recording the interplay between the solos in the orchestra and the fortepiano's is delightfully showcased and the orchestral sound picture is wonderfully transparent - hear it once and you'll never want anything else.
Besides the orchestra souding too "massive" (mind: relatively speaking - we're talking HIP here! ;D) the conducting is not in the same class as Van Immerseel - who is IMO a "visionary" in Mozart on the level of René Jacobs in the operas. So less distinctive conducting, but it still is all cheery and upbeat and does not sound "wrong" in terms of phrasing and rhythmic treatment either. The soloists Brautigam and Lubimov are superb. The have wonderfull instruments made after Walther.

(http://discplus.ch/login/1547894/shop/upload/32874.jpg)

Q

But of course the Immerseel is much more expensive in comparison. I guess in this case it's a "You get what you pay for"?

Howard
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on November 26, 2007, 01:59:58 AM
(http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/3194/41jha3r2g0lss400eu9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Well, fortepiano for Beethoven, but fortepiano for Mozart, too!  Ongoing series include Staier, Levin, Brunner and now Beghin - keep it coming!  :D

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on November 26, 2007, 09:51:49 AM
Recommended post by fl.traverso.  8)

(http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/3194/41jha3r2g0lss400eu9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Well, fortepiano for Beethoven, but fortepiano for Mozart, too!  Ongoing series include Staier, Levin, Brunner and now Beghin - keep it coming!  :D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on November 26, 2007, 10:34:55 PM
Recommended post by fl.traverso.  8)


Not yet a recommendation (I haven't heard the disc) but it should be good - Beghin's Haydn is nothing short of marvellous.  :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on December 01, 2007, 01:47:14 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51G20YXTRDL._SS500_.jpg)

Q,
I have those and was quite pleased with them. The fortepianist with that group is Steven Lubin, who we have talked about here already, a very good one, and the string players are good too. I haven't heard the others (LFT), but haven't really missed them, although they are by all accounts excellent.

Well Gurn was absolutely spot on, as far as I'm concerned. Marvelous! These works never "clicked" with me in non-HIP recordings, but this is great. What an incredibly gorgeous music this is!  :o
Not only (forte)pianist Steven Lubin does a superb job here, all three players collaborate perfectly. And I was particularly impressed with violinist Stanley Ritchie, who has a beautiful deep, silken tone and whose phrasing fits Mozart perfectly!
This is totally satisfactory, like Gurn, I feel this is pretty definitive and have no urge to look any further.

Buy immediately!  ;D

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 01, 2007, 06:53:27 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51G20YXTRDL._SS500_.jpg)

Well Gurn was absolutely spot on, as far as I'm concerned. Marvelous! These works never "clicked" with me in non-HIP recordings, but this is great. What an incredibly gorgeous music this is!  :o
Not only (forte)pianist Steven Lubin does a superb job here, all three players collaborate perfectly. And I was particularly impressed with violinist Stanley Ritchie, who has a beautiful deep, silken tone and whose phrasing fits Mozart perfectly!
This is totally satisfactory, like Gurn, I feel this is pretty definitive and have no urge to look any further.

Buy immediately!  ;D

Q

Ah, delighted you like them, Que. I am always hesitant to make recs because oftentimes, as in this case, I don't have a basis of comparison. These are the only HIP trios I've heard. But they ARE awfully good. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing: K 540 Adagio in b for Keyboard (HIP) - Ronald Brautigam - K 540 Adagio in b for Keyboard - 07 (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/ronald+brautigam/track/k+540+adagio+in+b+for+keyboard)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on January 15, 2008, 10:52:47 AM
(http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/4749/0822252213829nn2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Yet another Mozart fortepiano recording!  :o :)

But, in this case, it's worth the cost of duplication  Marcia Hadjimarkos does an excellent job of playing both the big sonatas and the small ones, plus a rondo for each sonata.   The instrument she chose to record this one, a Clarke copy of Sebastian Lengerer fortepiano which was built in the tradition of Stein rather than the usual Walter.  Has the "windband" sound (there is indeed a resemblance for all I can hear) that Mozart so valued of Stein instruments.  Hadjimarkos' previous Haydn was recorded on a clavichord and her Mozart has even more varied articulations and nuanced phrasing.  Her embellishments are so nice it's hard to criticise their changing the melodic contour whenever a theme returns.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Lethevich on January 15, 2008, 01:48:38 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-axXF%2BBpL._AA240_.jpg)

Has anyone heard this recording (Koopman/Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra)?

Also, regarding full symphony sets - does anybody have any particular favourites? The Pinnock and Hogwood look tempting - the Pinnock is substantially cheaper, but I tend to trust anything Hogwood does - plus, that box appears to have a lot more miscellaneous works included...
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on January 15, 2008, 01:56:23 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-axXF%2BBpL._AA240_.jpg)

Has anyone heard this recording (Koopman/Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra)?


Fleeting, smooth performances as one would expect from this conductor, be it Bach or Mozart.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Lethevich on January 15, 2008, 02:08:31 PM
Fleeting, smooth performances as one would expect from this conductor, be it Bach or Mozart.

Thank you. I think I'll snap that up... I didn't know the disc existed until I accidentely ran into it on Amazon :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: M forever on January 15, 2008, 03:23:13 PM
Also, regarding full symphony sets - does anybody have any particular favourites? The Pinnock and Hogwood look tempting - the Pinnock is substantially cheaper, but I tend to trust anything Hogwood does - plus, that box appears to have a lot more miscellaneous works included...

Indeed, and it is 19 CDs vs Pinnock's 11. I don't know how really completely "complete" Hogwood's set is, but it is certainly much "completer" than Pinnock's - if all those fragments and alternative versions (e.g.#40 with and without clarinets) are important to you. Plus Hogwood is much "HIPper". His set is a real trip of discovery into Mozart's symphonic world and its historical performance practices. They use different sizes of ensembles depending on the known historical circumstances and the playing style is much more "historically informed". Pinnock isn't really that "HIP" at all. They just play on period instruments, but not necessarily in a historical style. Very "nice", very smooth, very well done - but not necessarily stylistically that interesting. Then you can just as well get Mackerras' set which is on modern instruments but actually has much more "HIPness" in it.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Lethevich on January 15, 2008, 04:10:59 PM
Indeed, and it is 19 CDs vs Pinnock's 11. I don't know how really completely "complete" Hogwood's set is, but it is certainly much "completer" than Pinnock's - if all those fragments and alternative versions (e.g.#40 with and without clarinets) are important to you. Plus Hogwood is much "HIPper". His set is a real trip of discovery into Mozart's symphonic world and its historical performance practices. They use different sizes of ensembles depending on the known historical circumstances and the playing style is much more "historically informed". Pinnock isn't really that "HIP" at all. They just play on period instruments, but not necessarily in a historical style. Very "nice", very smooth, very well done - but not necessarily stylistically that interesting. Then you can just as well get Mackerras' set which is on modern instruments but actually has much more "HIPness" in it.

Ahh, that sounds incredibly neat! It would be nice to experience something like that, rather than a more mechanical and uniform run-through. Considering how composers of that time not only had to write for specific and non-uniform amounts of musicians, but also had to contend with even more changes once the works had been finished (conductors treating the scores as the opposite of the sacred writ that they are considered nowadays)... it sounds like the Hogwood set could recreate some of that chaos (and adventure). I'll start saving, thank you for the advice :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 15, 2008, 04:45:13 PM
I have Hogwood, but not Pinnock, so I can't make any comparison. I second M's post nearly completely, with one amendment. There are no fragments on it, the other symphonies are in 2 categories: selected movements from serenades that he distributed as sinfonias (he did the same with other movements, selling them in manuscript as concerti), and overtures from his operas that he added finales to, ex post facto. It also has the complete symphony by Michael Haydn that Mozart wrote the first movement of. There are either 3 or 4 of the later symphonies (from "Paris" on) that have 2 different orchestrations, as M says, with and without clarinets.

In all, it was an expensive little box, but I don't regret for a minute the investment I made in it. Even the liner notes, by Neal Zaslaw, are a trove of information. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Haydn London Trios - Karl Kaiser, Julianne Borsodi, Sabine Bauer - Hob 15 17 Trio in F for Flute, Cello & Fortepiano 1st mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on January 15, 2008, 05:00:39 PM
I'll start saving, thank you for the advice :)

Also save for Neal Zaslaw's book, which forms the musicological basis for Schroder and Hogwood's project.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: bassio on January 26, 2008, 11:16:55 AM
I am researching the best recording to get for a HIP symphonies cycle.

What do you think? What is your favorite(s)?

I am generally a fan of Hogwood readings in general (I still did not get his cycle), but is there better ones out there?

Thanks
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: M forever on January 26, 2008, 11:26:25 AM
I am researching the best recording to get for a HIP symphonies cycle.

What do you think?

I think you should scroll back just a few posts.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: 12tone. on January 26, 2008, 09:12:46 PM
The HIP scene is starting to get sci-fi features: things are developping at light speed and are getting more amazing by the day! ;D  After the resurrection of the lute-harpsichord (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lautenwerck) (Lautenwerck) and the clavichord (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clavichord),
next is the Tangentenflügel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangent_piano) (tangent piano)!

This is the first release of a new German label: "Ludi Musici".
Two SACD's in a booklet with 6 violin sonatas by Mozart with a Tangentenflügel (and an interview in German) - isn't it fascinating? Anton Steck is a superb baroque violinist and the sound of the Tangentenflügel, played by Marieke Spaans, is very cute IMO.

Online Review (http://www.audaud.com/article.php?ArticleID=3264)

(http://store.acousticsounds.com/images/as60gif/CLUD-001SA.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/7808456?rk=classic&rsk=hitlist)[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.jpc.de/mp3/780/7808456_01.mp3[/mp3]
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.jpc.de/mp3/780/7808456_04.mp3[/mp3]
Longer samples of higher quality can be found here (http://www.antonsteck.de/index.php?option=com_xemusicgal&Itemid=76) (tracks 5-9) and here (http://www.prelude-klassiekemuziek.nl/mozart_ludi_musici.html).

Q


Q:

A couple questions!

1) How is it that you are putting up these sound samples?  Really good!  You should make a thread of all your favorites so we can hear some more snippets  :D

2) Can you explain more about this 'Tangent Piano' and 'lute-harpsichord'?  This is interesting!  Which instrument did we hear in your samples?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on January 27, 2008, 01:12:34 AM
1) How is it that you are putting up these sound samples?  Really good!  You should make a thread of all your favorites so we can hear some more snippets  :D

Rob has a thread on this: Embedding MP3 files (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2710.0.html). But it's mostly not easy to find the url of the MP3-file on a webpage (to find with: "view source") and it does only work with (most) MP3 files. The MP3 function is for these reasons hardly used on the forum.

Quote
2) Can you explain more about this 'Tangent Piano' and 'lute-harpsichord'?  This is interesting!  Which instrument did we hear in your samples?

The recording, and the samples, is with a tangent piano. The names of the instruments in the post you quoted are linked to wikipedia for explanation. There are some lute-harpsichord (my favourite) and clavicord suggestions on this thread: Bach on the Harpsichord (lute-harpsichord, clavichord, etc.) (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,289.0.html).

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: bassio on January 27, 2008, 05:20:54 AM
I think you should scroll back just a few posts.

Thanks M, I nearly missed that.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Harry on February 28, 2008, 01:28:12 AM
I saw this release on the JPC site, 10 cd's going for 39,95 euro's, and ordered it right away.
Exciting.
For all the HIP dudes! ;D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: rickardg on February 28, 2008, 02:50:55 AM
FWIW, if you are pinching pennies, europadisk.co.uk has it in a special offer for £24.95 (~€31.50) until 26/03/2008. I assume it is the 'budget' issue with reduced liner notes?

I actually had it in my basket there for a while together with a few of Immerseels Mozart recordings on Zig-Zag and some other stuff mentioned on the HIP Mozart thread (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,232.0.html) but I was to cheap to pull the trigger...
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on February 28, 2008, 08:05:37 AM
I think Immerseel is waiting to re-record them for Zig-zag Territories later.  He already has some live performances in the can (n. 6, 8, 15, 22, 23) for that label but these can only be downloaded (for a fee) from the zzt site.  I had every single one from the channel set - sound quality is excellent - the performances are attenuated and smooth.   

fl

http://www.zigzag-territoires.com/catalog.php3?id_rubrique=47 (http://www.zigzag-territoires.com/catalog.php3?id_rubrique=47)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on February 28, 2008, 08:17:35 AM
FWIW, if you are pinching pennies, europadisk.co.uk has it in a special offer for £24.95 (~€31.50) until 26/03/2008. I assume it is the 'budget' issue with reduced liner notes?

You are correct - I don't really think I have learned much that is new from the notes though.  Neal Zaslow's notes for the Bilson Gardiner are definitely more interesting for me.

fl
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: bassio on February 28, 2008, 09:31:10 AM
I saw this release on the JPC site, 10 cd's going for 39,95 euro's, and ordered it right away.
Exciting.
For all the HIP dudes! ;D

Hi Harry, great suggestion. I was just asking about some HIP Mozart some time back.

I am waiting for your feedback regarding how this compares with the Hogwood and Bilson set.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Harry on February 28, 2008, 10:10:31 AM
Hi Harry, great suggestion. I was just asking about some HIP Mozart some time back.

I am waiting for your feedback regarding how this compares with the Hogwood and Bilson set.


It will however take some time before I get to listening to the concertos, and compare.... ::)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on February 28, 2008, 10:24:05 AM

 the Hogwood and Bilson set.


That's the Gardiner and Bilson set.  Hogwood recorded them with Robert Levin.

FL
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: BorisG on February 28, 2008, 06:27:04 PM
I saw this release on the JPC site, 10 cd's going for 39,95 euro's, and ordered it right away.
Exciting.
For all the HIP dudes! ;D

It is a disappointing set for any amount of money. The weight of the orchestra infringes on the soloist. The strings are often swamped by the close micing of other sections. This poorly recorded sound makes it difficult to enjoy the performances, not that the playing is anything special.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on February 28, 2008, 11:52:28 PM
It is a disappointing set for any amount of money. The weight of the orchestra infringes on the soloist. The strings are often swamped by the close micing of other sections. This poorly recorded sound makes it difficult to enjoy the performances, not that the playing is anything special.

I think that's the orchestral balance that van Immerseel wants - even if it sounds like a poor one to you.
I reckon Channel Classics' rendering of the acoustics a HIP orchestra vs solo fortepiano to be, in fact, quite natural.

fl
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Harry on March 01, 2008, 01:46:55 AM
I saw this release on the JPC site, 10 cd's going for 39,95 euro's, and ordered it right away.
Exciting.
For all the HIP dudes! ;D

And from the same forces all the Beethoven Symphonies will appear coming April, for the same price.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on March 01, 2008, 01:51:31 AM
And from the same forces all the Mozart Symphonies will appear coming April, for the same price.

Has van Immerseel recorded all Mozart symphonies? 
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on March 01, 2008, 01:52:03 AM
And from the same forces all the Mozart Symphonies will appear coming April, for the same price.

All the Mozart symphonies?
Could you mean Beethoven, or did I miss something?

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Harry on March 01, 2008, 01:55:54 AM
All the Mozart symphonies?
Could you mean Beethoven, or did I miss something?

Q

Yes, Beethoven! I am sorry Que.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Harry on March 01, 2008, 01:56:46 AM
Has van Immerseel recorded all Mozart symphonies? 

No,...sorry my mistake! :-[
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on March 01, 2008, 02:02:51 AM

did I miss something?


I think not.

32 euro (list) is actually a very good price - it is even cheaper than the Badura-Skoda complete LvB sonatas re-release (Gramola) which is about 49 euro current.

ps.  B-S is recording still - new release of Schubert sonatas on Genuin.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: rickardg on March 01, 2008, 03:23:54 AM
I think Immerseel is waiting to re-record them for Zig-zag Territories later. 

Aha, interesting...

the performances are attenuated and smooth.   

Pardon a n00b, but is that good or bad...?  :)

Well, I can imagine smooth and I guess it's a matter of taste, but what does attenuated mean in this context?

And how would you, or anyone else for that matter, describe the Gardiner/Bilson set? Oh well, I guess I'll have to sign up to emusic to sample Immerseel properly. DGG has actually got decent samples of Gardiner/Bilson on their website, but there are still quite a few movements where you don't get to hear the keyboard in the sample.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: bassio on March 01, 2008, 04:28:19 AM
hey fl.traverso, do you have the Immerseel Harry is referring to? What do you think?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Harry on March 01, 2008, 04:46:39 AM
Let me bring into this discussion this set, which is also a rather good period instruments performance. 11 cd's for 20,- euro's for this quality.... :o :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on March 01, 2008, 06:17:52 AM
hey fl.traverso, do you have the Immerseel Harry is referring to? What do you think?

This is actually my first complete set of HIP Mozart solo keyboard concerti recordings. 
(Before Gardiner/Bilson and the incomplete Hogwood/Levin came into my collection.)
Beautifully recorded (spacious acoustics, naturally balanced), notes a bit too brief.
Flowing, polished performances but a bit low in tension.  "Expansive" is probably a
good way to describe it.  Mind you this is stated in comparison to other HIP sets.
By the avearge of both HIP and non-HIP (Schiff, Zarcharias, Brandel etc.) it is not
slow at all.  Depending on one's taste in concertante music (competition and harmony
in balance), this may be found to be advantageous or otherwise. The Bilson and Gardiner
has a more integrated ensemble, and Levin's passagework and phrasing are more
tasefully done if it is for me to say.  But neither sounds smoother and more relaxed
than Immerseel.
 
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on March 01, 2008, 06:29:49 AM
Aha, interesting...

Pardon a n00b, but is that good or bad...?  :)

Well, I can imagine smooth and I guess it's a matter of taste, but what does attenuated mean in this context?

And how would you, or anyone else for that matter, describe the Gardiner/Bilson set? Oh well, I guess I'll have to sign up to emusic to sample Immerseel properly. DGG has actually got decent samples of Gardiner/Bilson on their website, but there are still quite a few movements where you don't get to hear the keyboard in the sample.

I think van Immerseel sounds more large-scaled, despite what another poster said about the weak fortepiano sound.  (None of
the HIP sets that i know has a powerful fortepiano presence.  One has to go to the two Andreas Staier/ Concerto Koln discs to
hear white hot keyboard virtuosity shoved in-your-face.)  Things are taken somewhat leisurely and for example, the nervous syncopations in K.466i are not really etched out like they are in Bilson/Gardiner or Levin/Hogwood.  But Immerseel's expansive
approach really works in K. 482 where it doesn't hurt at all to have things spread out a bit.  Lyrical movements are beautfully
done but one really needs to hear Staier for best example of articulation or inflection in fortepiano playing.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bogey on March 01, 2008, 08:03:20 AM
One of my favorite sets on the shelf Harry.  You will surely enjoy them.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Harry on March 01, 2008, 09:37:51 AM
One of my favorite sets on the shelf Harry.  You will surely enjoy them.

Well I actually did allready! Heard the first disc, absolutely marvelous. :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: rickardg on March 01, 2008, 09:50:13 AM
Thank you very much for your informative post!

I've spent some time this afternoon sampling the Bilson/Gardiner set at the DDG website and the Immerseel set at jpc.de. I've only sampled the concerti mentioned below.

I think van Immerseel sounds more large-scaled, despite what another poster said about the weak fortepiano sound.
That's not my impression, but it could be because the DGG samples play louder on my computer (and longer, and aren't they in higher quality as well?)

 
Things are taken somewhat leisurely and for example, the nervous syncopations in K.466i are not really etched out like they are in Bilson/Gardiner or Levin/Hogwood.
Ah yes, is that what you meant with attenuated? It's quite a pronounced difference.

But Immerseel's expansive approach really works in K. 482 where it doesn't hurt at all to have things spread out a bit.
The fortepiano seems very staccato in the higher register in the third movement, almost only attack. Perhaps the instrument just doesn't have more sustain? or maybe it just sounds like that because the tempo is slower than Gardiners? I think I would like a bit more tone...

Based solely on the samples of these two concerti I'm leaning towards Gardiner/Bilson, but I really should listen to longer and higher quality samples of Immerseel.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: longears on March 01, 2008, 10:06:21 AM
Fortepianos are weak, and thin-sounding, and thus period instrument performances of such works are the exception to my usual preferences.  On the plus side, I think these are passable performances (I like the orchestra much better, for instance, than the accompaniment on Uchida's set) and the instrument is bigger-sounding than most I've heard.  On the minus side, for my tastes this set doesn't hold a musical candle to the Schiff/Vegh set, the Goode/Orpheus recordings, the Brendel/Mackerras set, or Uchida's pianism, among cycles or partial cycles I prefer.  Still, a decent period instrument HIP performance is better than none! 

(If there's a Sunday School Heaven, surely Mozart and Beethoven are there and singing God's praises for providing them with modern Steinways and Bösendorfers!)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: rickardg on March 01, 2008, 10:49:34 AM
Fortepianos are weak
Oh, I know, I meant in comparison to the Gardiner/Bilson set which sounds fine to me. I kind of like the bell-like sound in the high register and the transparency in the lower register of the fortepiano

(Edit: well, perhaps not the set, maybe just the few seconds of K. 482:iii I compared)

[...] the Schiff/Vegh set, the Goode/Orpheus recordings, the Brendel/Mackerras set, or Uchida's pianism [...]
I'm in the market for "modern" recordings as well, but I guess that's off-topic for this thread. In fact, I'm listening to Brendel/Mackerras PC no. 9 "Jeunehomme" as we speak, good stuff...
 
(If there's a Sunday School Heaven, surely Mozart and Beethoven are there and singing God's praises for providing them with modern Steinways and Bösendorfers!)
And cursing under their breath for making them revise their entire keyboard oeuvre :)
Now, behave yourselves everyone, don't make this into a HIP-non-HIP-period-instruments-modern-instruments flamewar $:)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: bassio on March 01, 2008, 04:58:13 PM
Did Levin record the complete set with Hogwood? I thought they only recorded the first four!

Any efforts from Lubin? I am a fan of his HIP Beethoven concertos. In fact it is the first HIP piano performance I hear and what made me gradually sinking in HIP nowadays.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on March 01, 2008, 11:08:11 PM
Fortepianos are weak, and thin-sounding, and thus period instrument performances of such works are the exception to my usual preferences.  On the plus side, I think these are passable performances (I like the orchestra much better, for instance, than the accompaniment on Uchida's set) and the instrument is bigger-sounding than most I've heard.  On the minus side, for my tastes this set doesn't hold a musical candle to the Schiff/Vegh set, the Goode/Orpheus recordings, the Brendel/Mackerras set, or Uchida's pianism, among cycles or partial cycles I prefer.  Still, a decent period instrument HIP performance is better than none! 

(If there's a Sunday School Heaven, surely Mozart and Beethoven are there and singing God's praises for providing them with modern Steinways and Bösendorfers!)

My tastes dicate a fundamental disagreement with all of the above. ;)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on March 01, 2008, 11:13:03 PM
Did Levin record the complete set with Hogwood? I thought they only recorded the first four!

Any efforts from Lubin? I am a fan of his HIP Beethoven concertos. In fact it is the first HIP piano performance I hear and what made me gradually sinking in HIP nowadays.

The ones Levin was not able to record with Hogwood (before the project got axed, like Hogwood's complete Haydn symphonies): K. 467, K. 492, K. 503, K. 595 (2 discs worth) but he had done all other solo concertos.

Lubin obviously recorded a couple of concerto discs - one of K. 413-415, and another (Arabesque) that includes an apparently very strong K. 466 (from the responses I heard).  I haven't heard either.  :-[
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: bassio on March 02, 2008, 11:16:26 AM
Lubin obviously recorded a couple of concerto discs - one of K. 413-415, and another (Arabesque) that includes an apparently very strong K. 466 (from the responses I heard).  I haven't heard either.  :-[

Tears flowing down my cheecks already!!  :'(

I googled it btw and it appears to be very rare, maybe even discontinued. But a guy at a Mozart forum said that this was the best 466 he ever heard. AND HE HEARD 15 VERSIONS!!
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on March 02, 2008, 12:33:05 PM
Tears flowing down my cheecks already!!  :'(

I googled it btw and it appears to be very rare, maybe even discontinued. But a guy at a Mozart forum said that this was the best 466 he ever heard. AND HE HEARD 15 VERSIONS!!

Take heart bassio!

Lubin has set up his own company to re-release these Mozart concerto recordings.

http://www.classicalsoundings.com/index.html

The first to come, though, is the previously unreleased K. 449 and K. 467.  You can
probably contact Mr Lubin to find out when the other two recordings will be released
on the new label.

I am quite happy with the several HIP k. 466 I already have, including one with
Patrick Cohen and Christophe Coin's Limogoes ensemble (Naive).  Tempi are a bit too
slow to be truly gripping but the phrasings are beautiful and recorded fortepiano
sound and balance are lifelike.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on April 20, 2008, 09:06:41 AM
Are there any good HIP on disc of the Sinfonia Concertante, K.364?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: ChamberNut on April 20, 2008, 09:08:59 AM
Sinfonia Concertante, K.364?

Hey Nav!  :)

One of my new favorite Mozart pieces.  Sorry though, I can't help you with the "HIP" part.  8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on April 20, 2008, 09:54:13 AM
One of my new favorite Mozart pieces.

For a moment, I thought you said "One of my few favorite Mozart pieces."  ;)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on April 20, 2008, 11:35:07 AM
Are there any good HIP on disc of the Sinfonia Concertante, K.364?

Monica Huggett / Pavlo Benznosiuk / Portland Baroque Orchestra (Virgin)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: M forever on April 20, 2008, 03:24:18 PM
Are there any good HIP on disc of the Sinfonia Concertante, K.364?

Not "strictly HIP", but very "historically informed" and musically outstanding in every respect is the recording with Kremer/Kashkashian/Wiener Philharmoniker/Harnoncourt - one of the few performances I know of anything which "nail" the piece so totally that for me, it has basically spoilt all other recordings and performances I have heard before and since - except for one live performance with Kremer/Bashmet/COE/Harnoncourt which was pretty awesome, too, but I don't think recordings of that are available.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on April 20, 2008, 09:41:50 PM
Monica Huggett / Pavlo Benznosiuk / Portland Baroque Orchestra (Virgin)

Not "strictly HIP", but very "historically informed" and musically outstanding in every respect is the recording with Kremer/Kashkashian/Wiener Philharmoniker/Harnoncourt - one of the few performances I know of anything which "nail" the piece so totally that for me, it has basically spoilt all other recordings and performances I have heard before and since - except for one live performance with Kremer/Bashmet/COE/Harnoncourt which was pretty awesome, too, but I don't think recordings of that are available.

Thanks you, fl.traverso and M forever.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on April 20, 2008, 09:55:56 PM
Are there any good HIP on disc of the Sinfonia Concertante, K.364?

This Kuijken recording with La Petite Bande on Japanese Denon is still on my shoppinglist, so can't comment yet. Available separately or in the complete set.

(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/190/26/3/8/415.jpg)  (http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/190/13/1/2/254.jpg)


The historically informed Kremer/Kashkasian/Harnoncourt is excellent - second M's recommendation.

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: hautbois on April 21, 2008, 05:01:35 AM
This Kuijken recording with La Petite bande on Japanese Denon is still on my shoppinglist, so can't comment yet. Available seperately or in the complete set.

(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/190/26/3/8/415.jpg)  (http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/190/13/1/2/254.jpg)


The historically informed Kremer/Kashkasian/Harnoncourt is excellent - second M's recommendation.

Q


Julia Fischer's recent recording is BEAUTIFUL, great orchestral playing with fine detail that makes it sound like the way it should be. Highly recommended.

Howard
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Don on April 21, 2008, 06:16:52 AM
Monica Huggett / Pavlo Benznosiuk / Portland Baroque Orchestra (Virgin)

I've got this one, and it is exceptional - fantastic dialogue.



Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on April 21, 2008, 06:25:01 AM
Julia Fischer's recent recording is BEAUTIFUL, great orchestral playing with fine detail that makes it sound like the way it should be. Highly recommended.

A little additional information for opus67: that rec. is not HIP.

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on April 21, 2008, 08:38:23 AM
Thanks, guys. :) I'll certainly add your recommendations to my wishlist. As of now, I'm hoping to get a non-HIP recording - the Oistrakhs and the BPO - just because it's paired with the Brahms VC, a work from the set extremely popular VCs yet to be part of my collection.

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: hautbois on April 22, 2008, 04:32:22 AM
A little additional information for opus67: that rec. is not HIP.

Q

Thanks for complimenting my post! It was so HIP in sound and style that i have almost forgotten that it is played on modern instruments! The other thing which is interesting on Fischer's recording is that it includes the largely under-rated Concertone K.190 for 2 violins and oboe obbligato.

Howard
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on June 24, 2008, 11:04:53 PM
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0094637277829.jpg)

Good performances?

IIRC, it contains a couple of string quintets, the oboe quartet, the 'Haydn' quartets, and a few non-Haydn ones, as well.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on June 24, 2008, 11:15:40 PM
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0094637277829.jpg)

Good performances?

IIRC, it contains a couple of string quintets, the oboe quartet, the 'Haydn' quartets, and a few non-Haydn ones, as well.

The most striking performance in the set for me is the K. 563 trio, which is still not outstanding given the competition available in HIP alone.  Get it if the price is very low (which it is) but don't assume that this is HIP Mozart at its best, etc.  :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on June 24, 2008, 11:35:47 PM
The most striking performance in the set for me is the K. 563 trio, which is still not outstanding given the competition available in HIP alone.  Get it if the price is very low (which it is) but don't assume that this is HIP Mozart at its best, etc.  :)
Ah, okay. Thanks. :) For some reason, the shop I usually buy from are low on HIP. But recently I saw this box and Kuijken's Bach (sonatas and partitas), so there is some hope.

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on June 24, 2008, 11:38:39 PM
Are there any good HIP on disc of the Sinfonia Concertante, K.364?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41i0XhLQzUL._SS400_.jpg)

This is definitely a very good performance (improves with each listening) and the fantastic sound
and in-concert atmosphere are also pluses imo.  

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on June 24, 2008, 11:54:48 PM
Ah, okay. Thanks. :) For some reason, the shop I usually buy from are low on HIP. But recently I saw this box and Kuijken's Bach (sonatas and partitas), so there is some hope.

Most of the music shops we have here in Taiwan are also not very HIP in their classical music stock lists - specialists and label distributors are the places to go for niche market products.   :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on July 22, 2008, 11:32:19 AM
Many thanks to traverso for his comments.  :)

Q

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Ck3WAt7IL._SS500_.jpg)

It's all (very) good -- if the sound isn't demonstration class.  Playing is very articulate and lively and tempi are brisker than most performances to date, period or not, that I have heard.  I have not heard Carmignola's previous Mozart (like you I was put off by its bad press), but I can't fault his interpretations on this set.  The orchestra is quite small (comparable to the one used in Biondi's recording on Virgin, which is somewhat better recorded) and there is a sense of chamber music playing, where close interaction is evident most of the time between the soloist and the orchestra.  Abbado applies some dynamic touches here and there, generally to good thrilling and dramatic effects. (But the basic tempi were suggested by Carmignola himself, as the booklet essay indicates.)  I think the use of period instruments is an important part of what I like so much about his recording (a particular mix of textures, timbres, articulations etc.) so until I hear otherwise, I won't be tempted to try its sister album of symphonies which is performed on modern instruments.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on July 23, 2008, 12:25:04 AM
Many thanks to traverso for his comments.  :)

Q

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Ck3WAt7IL._SS500_.jpg)


Thanks, Q, for restoring the post where it should have gone in the first place. 
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: M forever on July 23, 2008, 07:08:26 AM
I think the use of period instruments is an important part of what I like so much about his recording (a particular mix of textures, timbres, articulations etc.) so until I hear otherwise, I won't be tempted to try its sister album of symphonies which is performed on modern instruments.

It is played on period instruments, and it is so bad that I regret Abbado had to do that. I have actually lost part of the great respect I have always had for him through listening to that. Abbado really has never been into period performance, and he still isn't, these performances of the symphonies have nothing to do with HIP (even though the orchestra may scratch through the notes on "period" instruments). The performance practice at work here is not "historically informed", it is just a small set of mannerisms applied over and over and a few sensitive "Claudio" touches. There used to be a conductor named "Abbado" who was an independent and very intelligent musical thinker who was great at developing interpretive concepts even for very complex music out of its lyrical potential, and he managed to clarify and bring to life even very complicated scores. A logical development for him therefore was to emphasize his lyrical approach even more when he became principal conductor in Berlin, and he managed to "remix" the sound of the orchestra and "rediscover" a lot of the traditional repertoire, as well as discover modern and neglected traditional music. However, at the same time it became more and more apparent that Abbado increasingly relied on a quasi-improvisatory approach in which his clearly reflected musicianship started to disappear noticeably. He just did too much, had to tackle everything, apparently didn't take the time anymore to study and really get deep inside the music he conducted. "Abbado" was slowly replaced by "Claudio" as he was called in Berlin then. "Claudio" was that incredibly sensitive guy who stood in front of the BP in rehearsals and concerts, waved his arms around, poked in the air and made sublime faces, basically let the orchestra play through the music while he waited for inspiration which he sometimes applied to the process with trembling hands. Later, "Abbado" came back for some extremely good concerts (including some of the ones he did in Lucerne) which once again had that unique balance of intellectual clarity and high lyrical refinement.
But these Mozart symphonies are "Claudio" at his worst, dabbling conceptlessly in the field of "HIP". Why? Why?? Why???
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: M forever on July 23, 2008, 07:36:56 AM
Go ask Abbado... He may know something that you don't :D

Abbado knows a lot of stuff I don't know, but unfortunately, not about period performance. As these recordings demonstrate. He did some really good and interesting "conventional" Mozart in Berlin (in the earlier "Abbado" phase) and I think there are recordings of some of the symphonies on Sony. But why he had to "claudio" around in the field of period performance I really don't understand. Well, if you are as succesful in general as he is, your ass gets kissed by lots of people all the time, and if he somehow gets the idea (or some agent suggest to him) that he should dabble in period performance, nobody will tell him that that might not be a good idea. But then I also thought this might be quite interesting (otherwise I wouldn't have listened to it, obviously), but I was very unpleasantly surprised by this "Claudio" experience.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on July 23, 2008, 02:23:12 PM
Abbado knows a lot of stuff I don't know, but unfortunately, not about period performance.

Is there substance in this assertion?  ??? ::)

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: scarpia on July 23, 2008, 02:27:20 PM

Is there substance in this assertion?  ??? ::)

Nothing to substantiate the assertion that he knows a lot of stuff, as far as I am aware.
 :-\
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on July 23, 2008, 02:29:02 PM
Nothing to substantiate the assertion that he knows a lot of stuff, as far as I am aware.
 :-\


Stuff.  Not "period performance" (in comparison to what Abbado knows, especially). 
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: M forever on July 23, 2008, 02:39:42 PM
Is there substance in this assertion?  ??? ::)

Yes. The above discussed recordings of Mozart symphonies.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on July 23, 2008, 02:41:07 PM
But you have to admit it is pretty strange that Abbado waited till he is 70 to get into the swing of the HIP thing. Usually HIP guys strike pretty early. Abbado, regardless of what you think of his conducting, seem pretty old-school and doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would want to get into the while HIP thing.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: M forever on July 23, 2008, 02:43:22 PM
Abbado wouldn't. But Claudio would.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on July 24, 2008, 06:19:10 PM
But you have to admit it is pretty strange that Abbado waited till he is 70 to get into the swing of the HIP thing. Usually HIP guys strike pretty early. Abbado, regardless of what you think of his conducting, seem pretty old-school and doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would want to get into the while HIP thing.

Well he had got his feet wet with his DG "Magic Flute" with Mahler Chamber Orchestra.  Now this collaboration with seasoned period instrument players Giuliano Carmignola and Paolo Grazzi.  I expect more "full-immersion" HIP to come from Abbado.  :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: M forever on July 24, 2008, 06:49:33 PM
He had got "his feet wet"? Now he is headed towards "full-immersion HIP"? Man, you really have absolutely no clue what period performance is really about, and where the various representatives of this and other interpretive styles stand and how they are related to each other. Which doesn't surprise me since all this is coming from and happening in a cultural environment which is very alien to you. Strangely, you don't even seem to realize that and think that you understand all that. Do you really think that you understand such complex cultural phenomena just by listening to a few CDs and reading a few articles? If you did, then you could at least enrichen the discussion instead of just contributing a few hollow one-liners...
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on July 25, 2008, 05:04:29 AM
Well he had got his feet wet with his DG "Magic Flute" with Mahler Chamber Orchestra. 
I am not quite making the connection here. What does the Mahler Chamber Orchestra have to do with HIP or not HIP?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on July 28, 2008, 03:21:34 PM
I am not quite making the connection here. What does the Mahler Chamber Orchestra have to do with HIP or not HIP?

Listen to that recording and you will know.  :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 28, 2008, 05:37:42 PM
I have to agree with that, since mention of a Mahler Chamber Orchestra and HIP in the same sentence makes for rather a puzzle to me.  Kindly expand on that, if you please...

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Academy of Ancient Music / Schröder / Hogwood - K 048 Symphony #8 in D 3rd mvmt - Menuetto & Trio
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on July 28, 2008, 05:58:43 PM
I have to agree with that, since mention of a Mahler Chamber Orchestra and HIP in the same sentence makes for rather a puzzle to me.  Kindly expand on that, if you please...

8)


Marc Minkowski also made a couple recordings with Mahler Chamber Orchestra as well, so it's clear with whom the orchestra prefers to work.  Does that make their connection with HIP a bit more obvious to you?  In any case, the DG Magic Flute shows Abbado's interest in a more HIP style (balance, tempi, phrasing decisions) which is confirmed in the new period-instrument recording of the violin concertos.  Don't think we will see period-instrument Beethoven or Schubert from Abbado very soon, but compare his old Mozart and new and something is definitely changing (for better, as far as I am concerned).
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on December 20, 2008, 12:58:32 AM
Has anyone heard this yet? :o  :)
Seems a pretty good combination. I do enjoy Brüggen's Mozart - his recording of the clarinet concerto with Hoeprich (also on Glossa) was top of the pops IMO. And Zehetmair & Brüggen have been much lauded in Beethoven - though I have not heard that myself.

(http://www.glossamusic.com/glossa/files/References/143/GCD_921108_HD.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/8586232?rk=classic&rsk=hitlist)

Recorded live in Brazil and the Netherlands
between September 2000 and October 2005


Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on December 20, 2008, 01:55:36 AM
I have not heard that one, Que...  It looks noteworthy, would definitely be willing to hear it out.  For now, I have the Carmignola/Abbado set and it's wonderful.

A brief aside about the Bruggen/Zehetmair Beethoven recording: nigh on definitive!!!  ;D

By the way, trippy cover picture... :o
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bunny on February 06, 2009, 10:46:37 AM
The last of my Mozart purchases on Glossa with clarinetist Hoeprich.
And this another hit after the Gran Partita. :)
Brüggen provides a relaxed but very fresh, transparent and rhythmically articulated orchestral part.
Hoeprich has a beautiful rounded tone but with very clear cut phrasing. The whole performance is like that: relaxed but fresh and sharp at the same time - momentum is kept. Like in the slow movement there is a good pulse: the music is not smoothed over or milked for sentiment, no dragging of feet... A winner!
Btw, I already have Pay/Hogwood and Veilhan/Malgoire, but this will be my favourite.

A minor reservation: I usually don't mind, but a duration of 60 minutes and a coupling with an overture, two arias (all from La Clemenza di Tito), a short adagio and a short but beautiful " Maurerische Trauermusik" IMO does not present a good lay out. You're basically getting this for the concerto, with some "frills" as encores.
Worthwhile nevertheless!

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/5278563.jpg)

A short comment about one of the "frills" on this recording, Joyce DiDonato singing the two arias from La Clemenza di Tito:  I saw Ms. DiDonato a few weeks ago with Les Talens Lyriques doing Händel arias from her new cd Furore.  I have the greatest respect and admiration for her, she is a superb talent.  Although I've only seen Bartolli on dvd and tv, I believe from what I have seen that DiDonato is better!  Better coloratura, better acting, and far, far, far more attractive and charismatic stage presence.  While this is a very early cd for her, I suspect that those arias are not merely a frill but a very substantial contribution to the cd. 
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidRoss on February 08, 2009, 04:52:46 AM
A short comment about one of the "frills" on this recording, Joyce DiDonato singing the two arias from La Clemenza di Tito:  I saw Ms. DiDonato a few weeks ago with Les Talens Lyriques doing Händel arias from her new cd Furore.  I have the greatest respect and admiration for her, she is a superb talent.  Although I've only seen Bartolli on dvd and tv, I believe from what I have seen that DiDonato is better!  Better coloratura, better acting, and far, far, far more attractive and charismatic stage presence.  While this is a very early cd for her, I suspect that those arias are not merely a frill but a very substantial contribution to the cd. 
It's a rare occasion when we agree on anything, but Ms DiDonato's Rosina in SFO's Barber a few years back made me a fan for life!
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on April 13, 2009, 05:53:36 AM
Has anyone heard this yet? :o  :)
Seems a pretty good combination. I do enjoy Brüggen's Mozart - his recording of the clarinet concerto with Hoeprich (also on Glossa) was top of the pops IMO. And Zehetmair & Brüggen have been much lauded in Beethoven - though I have not heard that myself.

(http://www.glossamusic.com/glossa/files/References/143/GCD_921108_HD.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/8586232?rk=classic&rsk=hitlist)

Recorded live in Brazil and the Netherlands
between September 2000 and October 2005


Q

This was finally released in UK and I grabbed it despite an inflated pricing (Spanish economy?).  Zehetmair did all the solo work plus half of the conducting.  His tempi are somewhat brisker than those chosen by Bruggen but really the gap is by no means clear.  Balanced sound (a pretty healthy bass line audible all the time in music that is sometimes considered lightweight...) and overall smooth ensemble make it a winner by the ear.  Zehetmair plays a retrofit Strad and oh! what a beautifully focused, silky sound he conjured from his instrument.  Phrasings are well thought out and not so predictable at all.  A good companion disc to their Beethoven.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on April 15, 2009, 03:47:36 PM
This was finally released in UK and I grabbed it despite an inflated pricing (Spanish economy?).  Zehetmair did all the solo work plus half of the conducting.  His tempi are somewhat brisker than those chosen by Bruggen but really the gap is by no means clear.  Balanced sound (a pretty healthy bass line audible all the time in music that is sometimes considered lightweight...) and overall smooth ensemble make it a winner by the ear.  Zehetmair plays a retrofit Strad and oh! what a beautifully focused, silky sound he conjured from his instrument.  Phrasings are well thought out and not so predictable at all.  A good companion disc to their Beethoven.

Dang... I'm going to have to get that...  :-\
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Mozart on May 16, 2009, 03:02:19 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XhqY9VSHL._SS500_.jpg)

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/-qxk50KlKmc


I like these performances
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on May 16, 2009, 10:36:01 PM
I like these performances

Me, too, although not any more than I did other period instrument cycles of these great concertos.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on May 16, 2009, 10:55:31 PM
Me, too, although not any more than I did other period instrument cycles of these great concertos.

How many are there? I'm aware of only Bilson/Gardiner and Immerseel. (And now, of course, the one posted by Mozart.)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on May 17, 2009, 03:13:52 AM
How many are there? I'm aware of only Bilson/Gardiner and Immerseel. (And now, of course, the one posted by Mozart.)

Plus the incomplete one by Levin/Hogwood (two discs short).
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on May 17, 2009, 04:45:03 AM
Plus the incomplete one by Levin/Hogwood (two discs short).

Thanks. :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Mozart on May 17, 2009, 10:45:29 AM
I like this set best I think, I must be tired of the Gardiner set and the Immerseel one never impressed me much. I have 1 cd of the Levin Hogwood one and its not too bad.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 17, 2009, 10:48:51 AM
Is that the Sofronitzky set?


8)


----------------
Listening to:
Beethoven - No 8 Piano Sonata in C minor 'Pathetique' Op.13
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Mozart on May 17, 2009, 10:54:51 AM
Is that the Sofronitzky set?


8)


----------------
Listening to:
Beethoven - No 8 Piano Sonata in C minor 'Pathetique' Op.13

Yepp
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on May 17, 2009, 11:05:56 AM
Related to that son-in-law of Scriabin in any way?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 17, 2009, 01:08:34 PM
Related to that son-in-law of Scriabin in any way?


Daughter, IIRC.

8)


----------------
Listening to:
Belder, Cembalo - BWV 691 Choral for Cembalo "Wer nur den lieben Gott lässt walten"
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 17, 2009, 02:17:33 PM
Any idea about this recording?

Mozart - Violin Concertos
Performer:  Johannes Leertouwer (Violin)
Conductor: Johannes Leertouwer
Ensemble: La Borea Amsterdam
Label: Challenge, DDD, 2006
Studio/Live: Studio
2 CDs
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on May 17, 2009, 08:20:29 PM
Any idea about this recording?

Mozart - Violin Concertos
Performer:  Johannes Leertouwer (Violin)
Conductor: Johannes Leertouwer
Ensemble: La Borea Amsterdam
Label: Challenge, DDD, 2006
Studio/Live: Studio
2 CDs


I have it... to me all is done with propriety, including the liner notes. 
I do find that Burggen/Zehetmair has more fresh ideas about the
music though.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on May 17, 2009, 08:35:31 PM
Thanks. :)

FYI they never recorded K. 467, 491, 503 and 595.   I find the Sofronitzky set unevenly
produced with sometimes puzzling balances between horns, woodwinds and strings.  The soloist's
own cadenzas (I don't think she uses any of Mozart's own ones even where they are available) are
quite short and sound a bit perfunctory to me. 
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 17, 2009, 08:56:54 PM
I have it... to me all is done with propriety, including the liner notes. 
I do find that Burggen/Zehetmair has more fresh ideas about the
music though.

Thanks, traverso.

My opinion about Brüggen/Zehetmair is the best too, although I have just one disc.

BTW, do you know the Terakado/Kuijken set?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on May 17, 2009, 11:10:11 PM
Thanks, traverso.

My opinion about Brüggen/Zehetmair is the best too, although I have just one disc.

BTW, do you know the Terakado/Kuijken set?

The Brüggen/Zehetmair recordings were released only as a set (on Glossa, mentioned above) --
how did you manage to get just half of it?  :o

I have access to the Terakado/Kuijken set but have not listened to the performances thoroughly. 
Very rough impression is that, stylistically, they seem to be in the same camp as the Leertrouwer,
but the execution isn't as smooth.  In other words, those who like the Mozart concertos as musical
bouquets or bonbons would possibly favour the set from Challenge Classics quite a bit.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 18, 2009, 04:10:22 AM
The Brüggen/Zehetmair recordings were released only as a set (on Glossa, mentioned above) --
how did you manage to get just half of it?  :o


Well, I have a disc entitled Obras para violín y Orquesta, number 13th in an Anniversary edition of the "Mozart Year":

W.A. Mozart Obras para violin y orquesta (Works for Violin and Orchestra)
Thomas Zehetmair, violín y dirección (violin and direction)
Orquesta del Siglo XVIII (Orchestra of the XVIII Century)
Frans Brüggen
K. 207: Remy Baudet, solista (soloist)
K. 218 y K. 219: Marc Destrubé, solista (soloist)

Lugar y fecha de grabación (Recording location and recording dates):
K. 207: Curitiba, Brasil, 29 a 30 de junio de 2002
K. 218 y K. 219: Utrecht, Holanda, 28 a 29 de septiembre de 2000

Grabación y producción (Recording and production):
Studio van Schuppen

Edición original (Original Edition):
Grabación inédita licenciada a través de Glossa Music
(Unedited recording licensed by Glossa Music)

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on June 02, 2009, 10:21:17 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51oxNp5J%2BXL._SS500_.jpg)

What's unique with this recording that Vesselinova used an Andre Stein copy, which sounds quite different from Anton Walter's much used in today's HIP Mozart recordings (with a few exceptions such as Robert Levin's one volume).  Favoured by the composer himself until mid-1780s, Stein's design may be most ideal for M's pre- and early-Viennese sonatas. 
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on July 31, 2009, 06:02:58 AM
May I ask a naive, off-topic (but only marginally off-topic) question?

Given that I was recently blown away by the Immerseel Beethoven set (Beethoven on a motorbike instead of Beethoven in a family car), is there any obvious, rational reason, other than my own lack of Mozartian sensibility, why the Pinnock boxed set of Mozart symphonies made no impact on me at all when I bought it a couple of years ago? And still makes no impact, today?

I'm content to continue to accept that when it comes to Mozart I'm a completely inadequate, hopeless listener, whether listening to HIP, or not. But if it turned out that Pinnock's Mozart set is as deadly dull as Colin Davis's RCA Sibelius set, I'd like to know, because it might mean there was some hope left.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on July 31, 2009, 06:09:21 AM
Pinnock is a very conservative conductor.  His Mozart is uninvolving, it's PI but not truly HIP. ;D

When I switched to Mackerras, I was discovering HIP on modern instruments and his cycle is MUCH more involving.  Check it out, you'll love it! :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Brian on July 31, 2009, 06:29:16 AM
May I ask a naive, off-topic (but only marginally off-topic) question?

Given that I was recently blown away by the Immerseel Beethoven set (Beethoven on a motorbike instead of Beethoven in a family car), is there any obvious, rational reason, other than my own lack of Mozartian sensibility, why the Pinnock boxed set of Mozart symphonies made no impact on me at all when I bought it a couple of years ago? And still makes no impact, today?

I'm content to continue to accept that when it comes to Mozart I'm a completely inadequate, hopeless listener, whether listening to HIP, or not. But if it turned out that Pinnock's Mozart set is as deadly dull as Colin Davis's RCA Sibelius set, I'd like to know, because it might mean there was some hope left.
David W. offers great advice. Or you could find the single disc of Rene Jacobs and the Freiburg Baroque Orchestra playing Mozart's Symphonies 38 and 41. HIP through and through and boldly so - my favorite Mozart album, too. :) (Well, at least as far as symphonies go.)

If that disc leaves you cold, I'll eat my hat!
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: George on July 31, 2009, 06:40:13 AM
May I ask a naive, off-topic (but only marginally off-topic) question?

Given that I was recently blown away by the Immerseel Beethoven set (Beethoven on a motorbike instead of Beethoven in a family car), is there any obvious, rational reason, other than my own lack of Mozartian sensibility, why the Pinnock boxed set of Mozart symphonies made no impact on me at all when I bought it a couple of years ago? And still makes no impact, today?

I'm content to continue to accept that when it comes to Mozart I'm a completely inadequate, hopeless listener, whether listening to HIP, or not. But if it turned out that Pinnock's Mozart set is as deadly dull as Colin Davis's RCA Sibelius set, I'd like to know, because it might mean there was some hope left.

As much as I love Mozart and multiple interpretations of his music, I find that that the symphonies are difficult to find in performances that I enjoy. If only Szell had recorded more Mozart.... :-[

*quickly shuts up so as not to upset the HIPsters*

On second thought maybe I should try that Jacobs CD.  8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: jlaurson on July 31, 2009, 06:46:24 AM
As much as I love Mozart and multiple interpretations of his music, I find that that the symphonies are difficult to find in performances that I enjoy. If only Szell had recorded more Mozart.... :-[

*quickly shuts up so as not to upset the HIPsters*

On second thought maybe I should try that Jacobs CD.  8)

psssssssssst. sshhhhhhhhhhh. [ 8) hushed whisper:] George... over here: [conspirative signal] Want some truly excellent, superbly played, and always exciting Mozart? Krips is the man (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=340)! Now let's begone, before the HIPster Police arrest us.  $:) (Oh, and yes, that Jacobs CD is very nice--and Mackerras' Mozart is superb, too. But it ain't no Krips.)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on July 31, 2009, 07:24:03 AM
As much as I love Mozart and multiple interpretations of his music, I find that that the symphonies are difficult to find in performances that I enjoy. If only Szell had recorded more Mozart.... :-[

*quickly shuts up so as not to upset the HIPsters*

On second thought maybe I should try that Jacobs CD.  8)

Well there are not that many mature, late symphonies.  Krips, Walter, Vegh, Kubelik all give more traditional performances that you might find stirring, I think with just one or two more cds to compliment Szell you would have all the great ones, and you can leave the early works to us crazed Mozart fanatics! ;D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Lethevich on July 31, 2009, 08:31:50 AM
I also don't "get" Pinnock's Mozart. His Haydn is better, but there is less competition in this field. I second Mackerras as a recommendation, but perhaps sample a lot of single discs by different performers and see which take grabs you.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on July 31, 2009, 12:14:20 PM
Try Van Immerseel's Mozart, very good! :)

Given my experience with the Beethoven, that certainly makes a lot of sense.


Thanks to everyone who's responded here. I expected to take some flak along the lines of 'Pinnock is the tops and you need new ears', but from Lethe's comment ('I also don't "get" Pinnock's Mozart'), it seems that maybe, maybe, there really is some Mozartian hope left for me yet.

I'm reluctant to invest in Mackerras's Mozart, if only because it was the jolt I experienced on moving from Mackerras's Beethoven to Immerseel's that generated all this new excitement; and one thing that that experience taught me, loud and clear, is that I don't want modern instruments in this area, even with informed performance. I think Immerseel is the obvious way to go next. The important thing is that between you, you've persuaded me that there really is somewhere else worth going.

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 31, 2009, 03:18:35 PM
Given my experience with the Beethoven, that certainly makes a lot of sense.


Thanks to everyone who's responded here. I expected to take some flak along the lines of 'Pinnock is the tops and you need new ears', but from Lethe's comment ('I also don't "get" Pinnock's Mozart'), it seems that maybe, maybe, there really is some Mozartian hope left for me yet.

I'm reluctant to invest in Mackerras's Mozart, if only because it was the jolt I experienced on moving from Mackerras's Beethoven to Immerseel's that generated all this new excitement; and one thing that that experience taught me, loud and clear, is that I don't want modern instruments in this area, even with informed performance. I think Immerseel is the obvious way to go next. The important thing is that between you, you've persuaded me that there really is somewhere else worth going.



I think Immerseel would be a good choice for you too. My personal favorite is Hogwood, but hey, that's just me. One thing about the Mackerras though that I would like to mention. His Beethoven (if you have the same set I do) is with the Royal Liverpool Orchestra, and even though they are a fine band, and this is well played, they are a much larger group than the Anima Eterna group. In the Mozart, he is actually with the Prague Chamber Orchestra, a significantly smaller group of players, and very capable of projecting the transparency that makes the difference in Mozart performance. Of all the modern instrument performances of Mozart's symphonies, I like Mackerras/Prague the best. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Berliner Philharmoniker / Levine - Hob 21:2 Oratorio Die Schöpfung  pt 01 - Recitative with Chorus
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on July 31, 2009, 06:48:25 PM
the Immerseel Beethoven set (Beethoven on a motorbike instead of Beethoven in a family car)

Immerseel's Mozart set of 39-41 (plus bassoon concerto; I would like 38 instead) has really detailed and bright sound (engineering done by the old DHM/Tritonus team) and it also gets my thumb up interpretatively.  But talking about high impact, if you happen to see Ton Koopman's recordings of this music (whether original or reissue releases,) though, try them out as well.  Even leaner strings than the Immerseel, fruity woodwinds, thunderous timpani, plus honking horns and trumpets. Impetuous tempi in all outer movements and no second-half repeats at all: not the most majestic or refined readings or playing out there, but me likes it a lot just for all the stirring noises it makes.  :D

I have only heard Mackerras' Mozart on his more recent Linn SACD's, which he recorded with Scottish Chamber Orchestra.  Fine, poised, classical performances overall but I do not care for the sound of modern strings and woodwinds in this music, no matter how informed the playing is supposed to be.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on August 01, 2009, 12:23:45 AM
But talking about high impact, if you happen to see Ton Koopman's recordings of this music (whether original or reissue releases,) though, try them out as well.  Even leaner strings than the Immerseel, fruity woodwinds, thunderous timpani, plus honking horns and trumpets. Impetuous tempi in all outer movements and no second-half repeats at all: not the most majestic or refined readings or playing out there, but me likes it a lot just for all the stirring noises it makes.  :D

Sounds very appealing! Thanks for this tip. And thanks to Gurn too - I take the point about size of the Prague orchestra (yes, it was the Liverpool Mackerras Beethoven I was referring to).
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on August 01, 2009, 12:46:00 AM
But talking about high impact, if you happen to see Ton Koopman's recordings of this music (whether original or reissue releases,) though, try them out as well.  Even leaner strings than the Immerseel, fruity woodwinds, thunderous timpani, plus honking horns and trumpets. Impetuous tempi in all outer movements and no second-half repeats at all: not the most majestic or refined readings or playing out there, but me likes it a lot just for all the stirring noises it makes.  :D

A dissenting opinion on Koopman: I would avoid him in any Mozart... ::) Yes: stirring, bright and very lively - it's all true. But Koopman really has no clue whatsoever how to properly shape this music - music from the Classical period obviously does not suit his musical instincts.

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on August 01, 2009, 01:09:32 AM
A dissenting opinion on Koopman: I would avoid him in any Mozart... ::) Yes: stirring, bright and very lively - it's all true. But Koopman really has no clue whatsoever how to properly shape this music - music from the Classical period obviously does not suit his musical instincts.

Q

That's fine -- I will take your words as an opinion -- but do consider the fact that Mozart did not see himself as a "classical" composer, nor shaped his own performances after any self-consciously "classical" style.  Whatever "clue" one may have of performing Mozart, it's strictly a result of our (historical, musical, musicological) imagination.  In this case, my "clue" is clearly different from yours.  ;)

An example of Koopman's rather wild but infectious Mozart: Molto allegro from the "Jupiter" symphony (mp3, 14.5mb)

http://www.mediafire.com/?ij2n0edmwjz (http://www.mediafire.com/?ij2n0edmwjz)

A live recording, hence the audience ovation that follows.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on August 01, 2009, 02:03:43 AM
That's fine -- I will take your words as an opinion. (...) In this case, my "clue" is clearly different from yours.  ;)

Well, I was talking about Koopman's "clue", but yes - this goes all without saying! :)

Quote
-- but do consider the fact that Mozart did not see himself as a "classical" composer, nor shaped his own performances after any self-consciously "classical" style.  Whatever "clue" one may have of performing Mozart, it's strictly a result of our (historical, musical, musicological) imagination. 

Calling it "Classical" or not (Yes, how could Mozart be aware of a later, historical musicological concept? :)), Koopman does not "get" it IMO: funny accents, somewhat forced treatement of tempi and transitions, and trouble in approaching different movements in relation to each other. The works as a whole come across as lacking in cohesion and fragmentary, even within mvts. Maybe infectious on first listening, but I find it a bit tiresome thereafter. As a musician Koopman has a rather "willful" character. And nothing wrong with that - it leads to interesting angles to the music, but here it leads to uneasy results.

Don't get me wrong: enjoyable and certainly interesting interpretations, but not a primary recommendation.

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on August 01, 2009, 02:07:54 AM
My first explorations suggest that the 2CD Immerseel set is out of print. Damn. There's a cheap reissue on 'Zigzag Zebra' which just has two of the symphonies. I suppose in the first instance I'll try that, unless I can find an isolated copy of the earlier 2CD issue cheaply somewhere.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on August 01, 2009, 02:21:09 AM
My first explorations suggest that the 2CD Immerseel set is out of print. Damn. There's a cheap reissue on 'Zigzag Zebra' which just has two of the symphonies. I suppose in the first instance I'll try that, unless I can find an isolated copy of the earlier 2CD issue cheaply somewhere.

It might indeed be OOP, but MDT still lists it (http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//ZZT030501.htm) for a very moderate £11.50 - might be worth a try! :)
In my experience they've come up with seemingly OOP items before. Jpc still lists it as well, which is a good sign - they are quite particular in removing OOP items.

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on August 01, 2009, 03:38:42 AM
An example of Koopman's rather wild but infectious Mozart: Molto allegro from the "Jupiter" symphony (mp3, 14.5mb)

http://www.mediafire.com/?ij2n0edmwjz (http://www.mediafire.com/?ij2n0edmwjz)

A live recording, hence the audience ovation that follows.

That was spectacular!!  Thanks for sharing that. :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on August 01, 2009, 05:45:25 AM
It might indeed be OOP, but MDT still lists it (http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//ZZT030501.htm) for a very moderate £11.50 - might be worth a try! :)
In my experience they've come up with seemingly OOP items before. Jpc still lists it as well, which is a good sign - they are quite particular in removing OOP items.

Thanks Que - I've ordered a copy from MDT and we'll see what happens.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on August 01, 2009, 09:59:01 AM
(http://www.alapage.com/resize.php?ref=543985&type=2&w=500&h=500&z=.jpg?rand=296008721)

BTW A continuous run of snippets from Van Immerseel's Mozart symphonies 40 & 41 in good sound on the Zig Zag site HERE (http://www.zigzag-territoires.com/article.php3?id_article=213&lang=en).

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bogey on August 02, 2009, 04:31:11 PM
Since it is being played on Wolfie's gear:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8180648.stm
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bogey on August 02, 2009, 04:32:37 PM
There is a link here to sample the playing:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/03/arts/music/03mozart.html
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 25, 2009, 06:03:34 PM
Mozart – Sonatas for Fortepiano and Violin
[K.454 – K.379/373a –K.360/374b – 296]
Harmonia Mundi USA
Recorded June 2008

Petra Müllejans, violin Joseph Clotz, Mittenwald c. 1700

Kristian Bezuidenhout, fortepiano Derek Adlam , Welbeck 1987, after Anton Walter Vienna, c. 1795. From the collection of Christopher Hogwood. Temperament: Thomas Young, A=430

The performers’ relationship is amazingly harmonious and it’s captured in warm, "natural" and well-balanced sound. One of my favorite performances on period instruments next to Podger/Cooper (Channel Classics, 8 vols.).

 :)


Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on August 25, 2009, 11:39:25 PM
It [the Immerseel 2CD Mozart symphony set]might indeed be OOP, but MDT still lists it (http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//ZZT030501.htm) for a very moderate £11.50 - might be worth a try! :)
In my experience they've come up with seemingly OOP items before.

Just heard from MDT, who tell me there could be a considerable delay in getting one, so I think I'll settle for the poor man's single CD reissue on Zigzag.


Meanwhile ... I'm enjoying the Mozart Requiem K626 on Naxos (Schult-Jensen), but could someone recommend to me a period instrument version, please? I'm thinking of Christie on Erato, unless someone persuades me otherwise.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 26, 2009, 05:08:43 AM
Mozart – Sonatas for Fortepiano and Violin  [K.454 – K.379/373a –K.360/374b – 296]  Harmonia Mundi USA
Recorded June 2008  -  Petra Müllejans, violin Joseph Clotz, Mittenwald c. 1700


Hi Antoine - for those looking for a 'complete' set of these works, another option are the two volumes below - culled out my other 'older' recordings of these works after the initial listening experience:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Jw0C2GAIL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51eFcgLmh0L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 26, 2009, 05:33:50 AM
Hi Antoine - for those looking for a 'complete' set of these works, another option are the two volumes below - culled out my other 'older' recordings of these works after the initial listening experience:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Jw0C2GAIL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51eFcgLmh0L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Hi, Dave. That set looks attractive indeed and it has been warmly recommended here. But I currently have some doubts about the completeness in these works because Podger/Cooper (excellent, excellent discs) recorded 8 volumes and the latter is a double SACD. I only have the four first volumes, but I will check on internet the tracks in every disc.  

 :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 26, 2009, 07:52:24 AM
Hi, Dave. That set looks attractive indeed and it has been warmly recommended here. But I currently have some doubts about the completeness in these works because Podger/Cooper (excellent, excellent discs) recorded 8 volumes and the latter is a double SACD. I only have the four first volumes, but I will check on internet the tracks in every disc.  

 :)


Antoine,
Breitman/Rivest is 4 disks, it only is the 'adult' sonatas starting at K 296 and up. If Podger/Cooper included K 6/15 and 25/31, then that would require at least 2 more disks, lus another for the variations, plus another for all the fragments etc = 8 disks. I need to look into that if it is indeed the case. :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 26, 2009, 09:00:21 AM
Antoine & Gurn - my interest was peaked to review the Köchel catalogue of his 'keyboard & piano' works in the back of my Mozart bio on New Grove; below is a listing of these recordings (i.e. their number, place of composition, and dates).  As Gurn indicated, those early K. numbers were done when Wolfie was less than 10 y/o (The Hague work was 'early' 1766), so 'how much' was his input, his father's help, others, or some combo?

Thus, the Breitman & Rivest performances (on 4 discs, as stated) contain 18 of the 'mature' compositions (* = Vol. 1; ++ = Vol. 2); K. 372 & the Variations are missing; but might be interesting to pick up those earlier works w/ Podger & Cooper?  Dave  :D


K. 6-7 2 Sonatas Salzburg,Paris, 1762-64
K. 8-9 2 Sonatas Paris, 1763-64
K. 10-15 6 Sonatas London, 1764
K. 26-31 6 Sonatas The Hague, 1766

K. 301 1 Sonata Mannheim, 1778*
K. 302 1 Sonata Mannheim, 1778*
K. 303 1 Sonata Mannheim, 1778*
K. 305 1 Sonata Mannheim, 1778*
K. 296 1 Sonata Mannheim, 1778*

K. 304 1 Sonata Paris, 1778*
K. 306 1 Sonata Paris, 1778*
K. 378 1 Sonata Salzburg, 1779-80++
K. 372 1 Sonata Vienna, 1781
K. 379 1 Sonata Vienna, 1781++
K. 359 1 Variations Vienna, 1781
K. 360 1 Variations Vienna, 1781

K. 376 1 Sonata Vienna, 1781++
K. 377 1 Sonata Vienna, 1781++
K. 380 1 Sonata Vienna, 1781++
K. 454 1 Sonata Vienna, 1784*
K. 481 1 Sonata Vienna, 1785++
K. 526 1 Sonata Vienna, 1787++
K. 547 1 Sonata Vienna, 1788 *
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: jlaurson on August 26, 2009, 09:24:17 AM
...but might be interesting to pick up those earlier works w/ Podger & Cooper?  Dave  :D


No.

A.) It's not interesting, because the works ("London Sonatas") are lovely and even more forgettable.

Yes.

B.) It's rewarding because they are coupled with the variations, and those are worth hearing.

Both are on volume 7/8. (Btw. it's 7 sets, the last with two discs... not 8 sets with the last containing two discs.)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 26, 2009, 02:25:14 PM
No. - A.) It's not interesting, because the works ("London Sonatas") are lovely and even more forgettable.

Yes. - B.) It's rewarding because they are coupled with the variations, and those are worth hearing.

Both are on volume 7/8. (Btw. it's 7 sets, the last with two discs... not 8 sets with the last containing two discs.)

Jens - thanks for the comments; right after posting that  K. list, I looked at the contents of the Podger/Cooper discs; now, I've not heard any of those 'juvenile' Mozart violin works, but the more 'mature' Violin Variations are of interest, as you noted.  I guess that my question is whether the reduced priced 2-disc set is worth the 'cost of admission' to obtain the latter works?  If not, any other recommendations? 

I'd also be curious if any of those early Wolfie violin compositions, i.e. those when he was less than 10 y/o are even worth exploring - any comments would be appreciated - thanks all!  Dave  :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 26, 2009, 04:04:58 PM
Jens - thanks for the comments; right after posting that  K. list, I looked at the contents of the Podger/Cooper discs; now, I've not heard any of those 'juvenile' Mozart violin works, but the more 'mature' Violin Variations are of interest, as you noted.  I guess that my question is whether the reduced priced 2-disc set is worth the 'cost of admission' to obtain the latter works?  If not, any other recommendations? 

I'd also be curious if any of those early Wolfie violin compositions, i.e. those when he was less than 10 y/o are even worth exploring - any comments would be appreciated - thanks all!  Dave  :)

Dave, Dave Dave. ::)  Of course they are worth exploring. Are they equal to the adult works? No. Are they interesting as a document of his early period. Yes, they are. Are they the equal of other K & V sonatas being written in the mid-1760's? Surprisingly, yes, they are. The form itself, in its 'modern' version, had only been invented in 1762 by Schöbert in Paris, and by 1764-5 Mozart himself was in Paris, learning from Schöbert. They are juvenilia, true, but nothing at all like the preceding keyboard pieces from Nannerl's Notebook. The first 2 were engraved in Paris and dedicated to the Queen of France. In any case, they are not crap. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03 29 Quartet in G for Strings Op 17 #5 1st mvmt - Moderato
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 26, 2009, 04:18:23 PM
Dave, Dave Dave. ::)  Of course they are worth exploring. Are they equal to the adult works? No. Are they interesting as a document of his early period. Yes, they are. Are they the equal of other K & V sonatas being written in the mid-1760's? Surprisingly, yes, they are. The form itself, in its 'modern' version, had only been invented in 1762 by Schöbert in Paris, and by 1764-5 Mozart himself was in Paris, learning from Schöbert. They are juvenilia, true, but nothing at all like the preceding keyboard pieces from Nannerl's Notebook. The first 2 were engraved in Paris and dedicated to the Queen of France. In any case, they are not crap. :)

Gurn - LOL!  ;D  You know that I was just 'yanking @ a chain' for a response; the Podger/Cooper double-disc set will likely be my next order - already on my 'wish list' - Dave  ;) :D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 26, 2009, 04:35:12 PM
Gurn - LOL!  ;D  You know that I was just 'yanking @ a chain' for a response; the Podger/Cooper double-disc set will likely be my next order - already on my 'wish list' - Dave  ;) :D

:P

:D

Yes, I know, you are not one of those 'nothing before K 250' people. In the interest of PoF (Peace on Forum) I won't go further with that. :D  Anyway, I am thinking of grabbing that myself. I have them played (as is proper) on harpsichord, but I would like to hear them on fortepiano. The later ones, K 10-15 and 26-31, are also scored for flute and a continuuo, which I have a version of too, flute and organ, in fact. It is interesting to hear them played both ways. :)

8)


----------------
Listening to:
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03 30 Quartet in D for Strings Op 17 #6 4th mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 26, 2009, 05:43:49 PM
IMO, Cooper/Podger have recorded an exceptional cycle (at least the volumes that I know), arguably the best available on the market, although I have just listened to some samples of Rivest/Breitman. In fact, just the disc by Uchida/Steinberg –dark and played on modern instruments- impressed me so immediately like Cooper/Podger. Their recordings are clearly superior, for example, to the set of Devos/Kuijken, which I also own (… forgive me Sigiswald, I don't know how I'm saying this). All of this IMHO, of course.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 26, 2009, 07:02:02 PM
Yes, I know, you are not one of those 'nothing before K 250' people.

Me, neither. Though I know how you feel, Gurn. I'll never forget the beating I took at the hands of one of our resident trolls for daring to start a Mozart divertimento/serenade thread (on the old board). Little did I know that that's pre-genius Mozart fully deserving to be swept into the musical refuse bin.

Silly me.

(I'm embellishing a bit but it certainly made no sense to me :-\).
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 27, 2009, 05:15:46 AM
Curiously, I did read this passage yesterday in the Conversations with Goethe (by his secretary Eckermann):

1830
Wed., Feb. 3.- Dined with Goethe. We talked of Mozart.
“I saw him", said Goethe, “at seven years old, when he gave a concert while traveling our way. I myself was about fourteen years old, and remember perfectly the little man, with his frisure and sword”.
“I stared, for it seemed to me almost wonderful that Goethe was old enough to have seen Mozart, when a child”.

 :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on August 27, 2009, 10:33:44 AM
I think I may be about to experience a Mozartian shake-up of intensity comparable to the one I had when I discovered Immerseel's Beethoven cycle recently. The catalyst is this:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51pWbAzT5wL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

I can't analyse exactly why this is happening; all I know is that after decades of relative insensitivity to Mozart opera, this is setting me on fire. Whether it's the period instruments per se, I doubt; rather, it's the urgency, the drama, the vibrancy. The exquisiteness comes through, but it comes through like a living thing, rather than as a museum exhibit. It has something to do with watching the DVD Jacobs made about his recording of Idomeneo - I think, watching and listening to that, even though he was dealing with a different opera, I really started to 'get' it for the first time. But whatever the reason this is exhilarating stuff.

(I did a comparison between Donna Anna's wonderful 'O Sai Ch L'Onore' aria as sung here by Olga Pasichnyk, and another version by Rachel Mathes - and the difference was extraordinary. The Mathes is beautifully, forcefully sung - but it's sung as music; the Pasichnyk is sung as music drama. Not a question of which is 'best' - rather, two completely different philosophies about how the thing should be performed and presented.)

And you get Watteau on the box, and on the booklet. I mean, is this heaven or what? AND PrestoClassical are selling Harmonia Mundi at 30% off right now, so I've snapped up the rest of the Jacobs Mozart operas already.

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: jlaurson on August 27, 2009, 01:41:15 PM
I'd also be curious if any of those early Wolfie violin compositions, i.e. those when he was less than 10 y/o are even worth exploring - any comments would be appreciated - thanks all!  Dave  :)

I don't think WAM at age <14 composed anything that other, albeit mature, composers (never mind WAM at >14) didn't do better. It's impressive if you think it was a kid (though not as impressive as other kid-composers like Korngold or Mendelssohn), but without the association of the name Mozart, it'd be considered what it is: trivial exercises. Nothing tells you about the genius to suddenly break out with K271.

P.S. Please take note that >14 includes far more than K271 and upward. We should also note the difference between a piece of music having worth on account of its own merit or merit on account of what it tells us about the composer. If one wishes to get a musico-biographical account of Mozart, then even the trite stuff is "interesting" or even "worth it".

That said, I don't see how any of the first 11 symphonies couldn't also have been written by Abel (on a bad day). Then again, all violin concertos are certainly worthy Mozart.
I'm listening to the "vol.8" disc of the cooper/podger (keyboard sonatas with violin obbligato, after all) right now. Sure it's lovely stuff. But I think it would be unfair if this music, just for Mozart's name, overshadowed music that is better but by composers less known. (Sort of like every last fart of Beethoven is enshrined, while Ries' or Onslow's music is (or has long been) ignored.)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: jlaurson on August 27, 2009, 01:50:26 PM
In fact, just the disc by Uchida/Steinberg –dark and played on modern instruments- impressed me so immediately like Cooper/Podger.

What fine taste you have...  ;D

Quote
Hilary Hahn and her friend Natalie Zhu do much for Mozart with
their recording of the F major (K. 376), G major (K. 301), E minor (K. 304),
and A major (K. 526) sonatas for piano and violin. They are played on
conventional instruments, but the reading is more than just conventional.
It is spirited and most enjoyable. Still, these are not Mozart’s strongest works.
Of course, you’d never know by the slew of violin sonata issues that await us
this year: the Manze/Egarr team treat us to original instruments. I
thought that Rachel Podger and Gary Cooper (whose volume two of the
complete set is coming soon) would be difficult to surpass. The new recording
of Andrew Manze and Richard Egarr, however, seems to do so. (For lack of any
overlap between the two discs a comparison is a little unfair, perhaps, but
Manze/Egarr skate more melodiously through the sonatas.) To be honest,
even the best original instruments version would not really do it for me – I like
the sound of a healthy grand piano in works that should not automatically have
the violinist named first on the cover. There was one album that did that this
year – and completely out of the blue, too. Mitsuko Uchida and Mark Steinberg
(who? - Exactly!) are the only two players to date that have convinced me that
K. 377, K. 303, K. 304, and K. 526 are truly great works of music. Youthful
energy that Hahn/Zhu bring to the table, they may not stop Uchida/Steinberg
on their way to a ‘Records of 2005’ spot at ionarts. (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/10/universal-releases-fall-2005.html)

Quote

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0007D09GK.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg)
Best of 2005
W. A. Mozart, Sonatas for Violin and Piano, Mark Steinberg/Mitsuko Uchida
#2 (New)
Although I have mentioned this recording at about every opportunity I have had,
I never actually wrote a review for it. Shocking. I don't think this Mozart disc was
related in any way to the Mozart hoopla of his 250th birthday, but it emerged as
the Mozart recording of 2005/2006, anyway. Is it Uchida and her assertive,
unfailingly beautiful playing that elevates this disc and the works thereon to a
whole new level? Is it Mark Steinberg's flawless, unselfconscious violin playing? Is
it the expedient choice of works (K303, 304, 377, 526)? Given that I've heard
these works with other, very fine, musicians and was not always or entirely
convinced of their repeat-listening merit, I suspect that it is a magical confluence
of joy in music making that has beset Uchida/Steinberg. Of course I want more
Mozart from these two players now. At the same time I am worried: can such
musical love really be repeated? (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/12/best-recordings-of-2005.html)

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 27, 2009, 05:21:33 PM
What fine taste you have...  ;D



You're a perceptive man, Mr. Laurson.  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 27, 2009, 05:46:35 PM
What fine taste you have...  ;D
You're a perceptive man, Mr. Laurson.  ;D ;D

::)

OK, lads, none of that. ;D 

(Even though he's right). :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Beaux Arts Trio - Bia 536 Op 97 Piano Trio in Bb 3rd mvmt - Andante cantabile
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 27, 2009, 09:00:08 PM
Listened to during these days:

András Schiff – Concertos & Chamber Music
9 CDs
Warner Classics
CD 6 - 63:16
Mozart – Piano trios, K502 & K542
“Kegelstatt” Trio, K498

Andras Schiff (fortepiano)
Yuuko Shiokawa (violin)
Erich Hobarth (viola)
Miklos Perenyi (cello)
Elmar Schmid (clarinet)

This disc was originally Teldec, later Elatus and currently it’s included in this Warner Classics box set.

The information about the instruments is minimal in the booklet:

The piano and the violin, and probably also the viola, used in this recording belonged to Mozart himself; they are preserved today in the Mozart Birthplace Museum of the Internationale Stiftung Mozarteum Salzburg.

The fortepiano should be the Mozart’s 1780 Anton Walter. About the violin and viola the issue is more problematic:

“Leopold, who took the greatest care about musical education of Wolfgang, furnished him with a few instruments. Originally "baroque", these instruments were modernized in the 2nd half of the 18th century.

This is the list of instruments, preserved in the Mozart Museum in Salzburg:

1. Child Violin (Kindergeige) - in a possession of Mozart Museum since 1896. It is modernized to such an extent that it has lost almost all historical interest.

2. Violin - with a false label "Jakobus Stainer, in Absam, / prope Oenipotum, 1659. This violin was probably made in Mittenwald in the first half of the 18th century. According to some theories it is that violin, which Mozart used it until 1781, however, there is not enough evidence to assume that this violin ever belonged to Mozart.)

3. Viola, labeled "...iouani Paolo Megini/a Brescia. - 161*".

(Dmitry Badiarov, “Mozart’s Violin”)

All in all, a nice recording, especially of the piano trios, but probably not superior to the outstanding performance of The Mozartean Players (Lubin, Ritchie, Lutzke)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: karlhenning on August 28, 2009, 10:53:21 AM
Curiously, I did read this passage yesterday in the Conversations with Goethe (by his secretary Eckermann):

1830
Wed., Feb. 3.- Dined with Goethe. We talked of Mozart.
“I saw him", said Goethe, “at seven years old, when he gave a concert while traveling our way. I myself was about fourteen years old, and remember perfectly the little man, with his frisure and sword”.
“I stared, for it seemed to me almost wonderful that Goethe was old enough to have seen Mozart, when a child”.

 :)

I have got to ask (and this is the perfect forum to find someone who might answer):  what's a frisure?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 28, 2009, 11:04:05 AM
I have got to ask (and this is the perfect forum to find someone who might answer):  what's a frisure?

frisseur, actually. I believe it is a reference to his powdered wig. Has to do with hair, in any case. You know more French than I do... :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 28, 2009, 06:47:14 PM
... a reference to his powdered wig

I agree.

Frisure
Fri"sure`\, n. [F.] The dressing of the hair by crisping or curling.
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.


 :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 29, 2009, 05:18:06 AM
I agree.

Frisure
Fri"sure`\, n. [F.] The dressing of the hair by crisping or curling.
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.


 :)

Thanks for the English definition, Antoine. I believe the French that I cited means "hairdresser". Mozart mentions in a letter to Constanze much later on (1788? 89?) that the "frisseur was in early this morning". It is the way that Goethe uses it ('with his frisure and sword') that makes me think he is talking about the wig... :-\  At least, that has always been the way I read that, right or wrong. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Berlin PO/Karajan Augér / Crass / Ganz - Bia 539 Op 113 Incidental music to "The Ruins of Athens" pt 04 - Du hast in deines Armels Falten den Mond getragen: Allegro, ma non troppo
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 25, 2009, 08:11:20 PM
I'd be interested on your take on the Mozart box, Antoine. :)

Mozart - Chamber Music

Contents:

CD1
Divertimento for violin, viola and cello in E flat major K563 (1788) [49:21]
Quartet for oboe, violin and ‘cello in F major K370 (1781) [14:32]
Jaap Schröder, violin
Judson Griffin, viola
Jaap ter Linden, violoncello
Michel Piguet, oboe

CD2
String Quartet no 14 in G major K 387 (1782) [21:11]
String Quartet no 15 in D minor K 421 (1783) [30:45]

CD3
String Quartet no 16 in E flat major K428 (1784) [33:40]
String Quartet no 17 in B flat major K 458 “The Hunt” (1784) [32:49]

CD4
String Quartet no 18 in A major K464 (1785) [37:42]
String Quartet no 19 in C major K465 “Dissonance” (1785) [38:06]

CD5
String Quintet in B flat major K174 (1773) [39:52]
String Quintet in G minor K516 (1787) [39:33]

Recorded at Chateaubriant, France, 19-23 September 1990 (disc 1); Evangelische Kirche, Honrath, Germany, 16-23 October 1989 (Discs 2-4); Rosslyn Hill Chapel, Hampstead, London, UK, 17-21 October 1990 (Disc 5). DDD

Virgin Classics 3727782

5 CDs: 63:58 + 66:17 + 66:34 + 75:53 + 79:13

Smithson String Quartet
Jaap Schröder, violin (Gioffredo Cappa, Saluzzo, 1684)
Marylin McDonald, violin (Jacobus Stainer, Absam, 1665)
Judson Griffin, viola (J. Michael Alban, Graz, c1710)
Kenneth Slowik, cello (Paul Francois Grosst, Paris, 1748)

Lisa Rautenberg (2nd viola in K174 and K516))

IMO these performances are generally excellent, recorded in natural and well balanced sound. The performers are all first-rate. Probably the only criticism is about the customary poor quality of the minimal booklets in these Virgin re-releases. But for $18.37 ($15.97) at MDT this is a minor quibble and there is no doubt that this set is a must-have:

http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//3727782.htm

Just to compare I will say that ArkivMusik offers the CD2 at $16.99 (ArkivCD):

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=151590&album_group=8

The Smithson String Quartet was founded in 1982, as a part of the program of the National Museum of American History (Smithsonian Institut) to use its historical instruments for live musical performances. The present name of the ensemble is Axelrod String Quartet because in 1998 was changed to acknowledge a generous endowment to perpetuate string quartet performances at the museum. The current members of the Axelrod String Quartet are Marc Destrubé and Marylin McDonald, violins; James Dunham, viola, and Kenneth Slowick, violoncello.

 :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on September 25, 2009, 11:03:21 PM
Thank you so much, Antoine, for remembering my request. :) Another member here (traverso?) was also not overly enthusiastic about the set, but he had nothing to complain about it, either. I think I've seen this box sell for about the same price (probably even less) at a store here locally. I'll pick it up if I see it.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on September 30, 2009, 08:07:15 AM
Just spotted. It seems that Teunis van der Zwart is the new torch bearer of Dutch players of the natural horn - following in the footsteps of the illustrious Ab Koster.

(http://www.glossamusic.com/glossa/files/References/174/gcd_921110_HD.jpg) (http://www.glossamusic.com/glossa/reference.aspx?id=174)
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.glossamusic.com//glossa/files/References/174/audio/10.mp3[/mp3]

Horn Concerto in E flat, KV 447
Aria “Lungi da te”, from Mitridate, re di Ponto, KV 87
Quintet in E flat for horn, violin, 2 violas and bass, KV 407
Ein musikalischer Spass for 2 violins, viola, bass and 2 horns, KV 522
Horn Duos from KV 487


Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on October 17, 2009, 12:54:04 AM
If anyone felt able to recommend 'best' HIP recordings of the Clarinet Concerto, and the Flute & Harp Concerto, I'd be much obliged.

The only recordings I have are those on this CD, i.e. Marriner/Leister/Grafenauer/Graf:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41S1s8fUhML._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on October 17, 2009, 01:11:38 AM
If anyone felt able to recommend 'best' HIP recordings of the Clarinet Concerto, and the Flute & Harp Concerto, I'd be much obliged.

The only recordings I have are those on this CD, i.e. Marriner/Leister/Grafenauer/Graf:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41S1s8fUhML._SL500_AA240_.jpg)


For the clarinet concerto:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/5278563.jpg)

See my earlier post HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,232.msg18661.html#msg18661).

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on October 17, 2009, 05:16:43 AM
Thanks Que. This seems to have had an earlier release on Philips, coupled (more sensibly) with the clarinet quintet:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41S0TC7A6FL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

(I presume this is the same recording?)

Either way, I'll put this on my list for purchases next month. Thanks.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on October 17, 2009, 06:22:21 AM
Thanks Que. This seems to have had an earlier release on Philips, coupled (more sensibly) with the clarinet quintet:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41S0TC7A6FL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)


I'm of a different mind than Que on this one. I used to have this disc and yes it's HIP but it's not the best representation of this music, IMO. (Either work).

For me with Leister you already have one of the greatest exponents of this work on disc (Jack Brymer being the other - both with Marriner, coincidently). And for once Marriner is completely in his element, here, bringing a delicacy and transparency very much in the character of HIP. But what puts Leister (or Brymer)/Marriner over the top is the expert use of color, something paradoxically I don't find in Hoeprich/Brüggen despite its HIP origins.

Anyway, I hate to be at odds with my friend Q but that's just the way I see it. :)   
 
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on October 17, 2009, 07:17:01 AM
Is Trio Stradivari any good for the piano trios?  Anyone heard them or have clear preferences for those works? :)

Edit: doesn't have to be clear ;D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2009, 07:52:58 AM
Is Trio Stradivari any good for the piano trios?  Anyone heard them or have clear preferences for those works? :)

Edit: doesn't have to be clear ;D

The Gryphon Trio is excellent, and they aren't even PI! :o  Never heard the Stradivari though...  :(

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03 76 Quartet in d for Strings Op 76 #2 2nd mvmt - Andante
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on October 17, 2009, 08:30:40 AM
For me with Leister you already have one of the greatest exponents of this work on disc (Jack Brymer being the other - both with Marriner, coincidently). And for once Marriner is completely in his element, here, bringing a delicacy and transparency very much in the character of HIP.

Well, this too is very useful to know, and in some ways I'm not surprised - it's the only version of the work I know, but it seems to me very beautifully played and I imagine it would be hard to beat. Maybe then I can't get a 'better' performance - only a 'different' one?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on October 17, 2009, 08:37:05 AM
Well, this too is very useful to know, and in some ways I'm not surprised - it's the only version of the work I know, but it seems to me very beautifully played and I imagine it would be hard to beat. Maybe then I can't get a 'better' performance - only a 'different' one?

I might be alone in this but I think that Marriner is flat out great in Mozart.  I still remember buying the tape (yeah it was those days ;D) of the 25th and 29th and in that opening movement of the 25th the flames were just flying off the violins it was so heated, so passionate. ;D  And the 29th was charming, sublime but not indulgently romantic, just excellent.  After that I bought some of the serenades and some other things that also did not disappoint.  For me Marriner can be pretty dull with other composers, but I feel that he has an affinity for Mozart. :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on October 17, 2009, 09:22:33 AM
I might be alone in this but I think that Marriner is flat out great in Mozart.  I still remember buying the tape (yeah it was those days ;D) of the 25th and 29th and in that opening movement of the 25th the flames were just flying off the violins it was so heated, so passionate. ;D  And the 29th was charming, sublime but not indulgently romantic, just excellent.

Interesting comments, Dave, thank you. Oddly enough, I was playing Marriner's 'Jupiter' (Philips) earlier today, and getting very involved with it - to the extent that I actually stopped eating my lunch (greater love hath no man)! Perhaps it's just a matter of mood, but it seems to me a far more engaging effort than Pinnock's HIP recording, which always puts me to sleep.

So it's not that I'm looking merely for HIP Mozart. I'm looking for HIP Mozart that will make me go WOW!
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on October 17, 2009, 09:35:56 AM
Interesting comments, Dave, thank you. Oddly enough, I was playing Marriner's 'Jupiter' (Philips) earlier today, and getting very involved with it - to the extent that I actually stopped eating my lunch (greater love hath no man)! Perhaps it's just a matter of mood, but it seems to me a far more engaging effort than Pinnock's HIP recording, which always puts me to sleep.

So it's not that I'm looking merely for HIP Mozart. I'm looking for HIP Mozart that will make me go WOW!

Yeah he's not HIP as Stuart mentioned, and I haven't heard the recording that Donwyn mentioned in particular, but I bet if it's like the Marriner Mozart recordings I've heard before, it will be wonderful. :)

Yeah Pinnock is pretty drab in Mozart.  I sold that set pretty quick! :D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on October 17, 2009, 01:24:31 PM
Thanks Que. This seems to have had an earlier release on Philips, coupled (more sensibly) with the clarinet quintet:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41S0TC7A6FL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

(I presume this is the same recording?)

Either way, I'll put this on my list for purchases next month. Thanks.

Didn't know of the existence of that Philips recording! :)

Recording, not issue, because they can't be the same: the Glossa is recorded in Feb. 2001 and the Philips was issued (in the US, according to Amazon) in Oct. 1990.

Donwyn, maybe they did a better job the 2nd time around?  :)

EDIT: according to the booklet (of the Glossa issue) the Philips recording dates from 1985, see also the review on the Glossa rec. from Fanfare HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=53481).

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on October 17, 2009, 01:59:38 PM
Recording, not issue, because they can't be the same: the Glossa is recorded in Feb. 2001 and the Philips was issued (in the US, according to Amazon) in Oct. 1990.

Aha! Thanks. I shall confine my attention to the Glossa recording!
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Coopmv on October 17, 2009, 05:51:36 PM
Aha! Thanks. I shall confine my attention to the Glossa recording!

Elgarian,  You missed the Glossa sales at MDT.  I loaded up on all the baroque and early music on that label last month and am still receiving back orders ...
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Coopmv on October 17, 2009, 05:55:25 PM
I hope to start listening to this set tomorrow, which arrived about 2 weeks ago.  It will take me quite a few weekends to listen through 19 CD's. 

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41VVTVYVYQL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on October 17, 2009, 07:37:15 PM
Well, this too is very useful to know, and in some ways I'm not surprised - it's the only version of the work I know, but it seems to me very beautifully played and I imagine it would be hard to beat. Maybe then I can't get a 'better' performance - only a 'different' one?

If it's the only version you know I'd say you've hit on the right choice. I too have sought out alternate performances but none have really made any radical difference in my preferences. Leister/Brymer/Marriner have stood the test of time for me. :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on October 17, 2009, 08:46:51 PM
Donwyn, maybe they did a better job the 2nd time around?  :)


No doubt that could very well be the case, Q.

But admittedly I remain skeptical, mainly because of Brüggen's tendency for orchestral dryness over color - it's something I've never really been able to get past. I guess it's just a personal thing but I prefer conductors who draw more color out of the music - any music - and this just isn't Brüggen's style. Fine for him but not really my cup-o-java. :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on October 17, 2009, 08:57:57 PM
I might be alone in this but I think that Marriner is flat out great in Mozart.  I still remember buying the tape (yeah it was those days ;D) of the 25th and 29th and in that opening movement of the 25th the flames were just flying off the violins it was so heated, so passionate. ;D  And the 29th was charming, sublime but not indulgently romantic, just excellent.  After that I bought some of the serenades and some other things that also did not disappoint.  For me Marriner can be pretty dull with other composers, but I feel that he has an affinity for Mozart. :)

I agree with this 100%, David. I'm not the biggest Marriner fan but much of his Mozart is right up my ally. Mainly, like you say, because of his aversion toward excess. Plus his ability to make a large chunk of Mozart's divertimenti and serenades sound magnificent is virtually unparalleled in my experience. Which is quite an achievement.     
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on October 17, 2009, 09:00:10 PM
The Gryphon Trio is excellent, and they aren't even PI! :o

Second this rec, for sure.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on October 17, 2009, 09:18:27 PM
Yeah Pinnock is pretty drab in Mozart.  I sold that set pretty quick! :D

Wow.  Really?!  I thought that set was fantastic.  In fact, I consider it the gold standard for Mozart symphony sets!  I did just the opposite of you, actually, and got rid of my Marriner set!  ;D

By the way, there's a new album out for the 25th, 26th, & 29th Symphonies...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41J3UKtWXWL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Symphonies-Nos-25-26/dp/B001MTBVI8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1255843180&sr=1-1)

A hearty recommendation for all the HIP fanatics here.  This is a new ensemble formed in 2005 and they give Mozart a vivacious and fiery performance (for once)!
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on October 17, 2009, 11:13:01 PM
No doubt that could very well be the case, Q.

But admittedly I remain skeptical, mainly because of Brüggen's tendency for orchestral dryness over color - it's something I've never really been able to get past. I guess it's just a personal thing but I prefer conductors who draw more color out of the music - any music - and this just isn't Brüggen's style. Fine for him but not really my cup-o-java. :)


I understand what you're saying Donwyn, and I actually share those reservations on Brüggen. But I think this recording turned out quite fine, with Hoeprich playing magnificently. Though Brüggen is still a far cry away from the Mozart Colourist Supreme: Van Immerseel. :)

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on October 18, 2009, 12:01:57 AM
the Mozart Colourist Supreme: Van Immerseel. :)

This is an experience I have yet to sample (too many CDs asking me to buy them, and too little cash to do it with), but I am enormously hopeful about it, if it's as revelatory as his Beethoven.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 20, 2009, 04:06:41 PM
Well, have just listened to Vols. 7/8 (double-CD set in a slim jewel box) of the 'early' Mozart Violin Sonatas w/ Rachel Podger & Gary Cooper; these discs 'fill-in' most of those early works from the 1760s, and nicely supplement the more mature compositions; the musicians perform admirably and the recording sound is superb; certainly a bargain & a recommendation if interested in Wolfie's juvenile years -  ;) ;D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/687126213_EjxR9-O.jpg)

Antoine & Gurn - my interest was peaked to review the Köchel catalogue of his 'keyboard & piano' works in the back of my Mozart bio on New Grove; below is a listing of these recordings (i.e. their number, place of composition, and dates).  As Gurn indicated, those early K. numbers were done when Wolfie was less than 10 y/o (The Hague work was 'early' 1766), so 'how much' was his input, his father's help, others, or some combo?

Thus, the Breitman & Rivest performances (on 4 discs, as stated) contain 18 of the 'mature' compositions (* = Vol. 1; ++ = Vol. 2); K. 372 & the Variations are missing; but might be interesting to pick up those earlier works w/ Podger & Cooper?  Dave  :D


K. 6-7 2 Sonatas Salzburg,Paris, 1762-64
K. 8-9 2 Sonatas Paris, 1763-64
K. 10-15 6 Sonatas London, 1764
K. 26-31 6 Sonatas The Hague, 1766

K. 301 1 Sonata Mannheim, 1778*
K. 302 1 Sonata Mannheim, 1778*
K. 303 1 Sonata Mannheim, 1778*
K. 305 1 Sonata Mannheim, 1778*
K. 296 1 Sonata Mannheim, 1778*

K. 304 1 Sonata Paris, 1778*
K. 306 1 Sonata Paris, 1778*
K. 378 1 Sonata Salzburg, 1779-80++
K. 372 1 Sonata Vienna, 1781
K. 379 1 Sonata Vienna, 1781++
K. 359 1 Variations Vienna, 1781
K. 360 1 Variations Vienna, 1781

K. 376 1 Sonata Vienna, 1781++
K. 377 1 Sonata Vienna, 1781++
K. 380 1 Sonata Vienna, 1781++
K. 454 1 Sonata Vienna, 1784*
K. 481 1 Sonata Vienna, 1785++
K. 526 1 Sonata Vienna, 1787++
K. 547 1 Sonata Vienna, 1788 *
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Coopmv on October 25, 2009, 04:46:08 PM
BTW, I just started listening to this set by the AAM with Christopher Hogwood and the original lead violinists Monica Huggett and Catherine Mackintosh.  The performance on this HIP Mozart set has been outstanding.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41VVTVYVYQL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 25, 2009, 04:57:55 PM
BTW, I just started listening to this set by the AAM with Christopher Hogwood and the original lead violinists Monica Huggett and Catherine Mackintosh.  The performance on this HIP Mozart set has been outstanding.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41VVTVYVYQL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51RZ9KbO0fL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Stuart - will be interested in your 'overall' impressions of this box set - I own the Mackerras box, but would love to have a 'period instrument' set - Hogwood & Pinnock are the usually recommendations - would love to hear some more comments and maybe even other suggestions, if available?  Thanks all -  :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Coopmv on October 25, 2009, 05:11:14 PM
Stuart - will be interested in your 'overall' impressions of this box set - I own the Mackerras box, but would love to have a 'period instrument' set - Hogwood & Pinnock are the usually recommendations - would love to hear some more comments and maybe even other suggestions, if available?  Thanks all -  :)

Dave,  No problems.  I am only on CD2 and there are 19 CD's in this set.  I actually have 1 CD (Sym Nos. 31 & 40) and 2 Barclay-Crocker open-reel tapes on some of these works I bought back in the 80's.  I leaped at this set once I realized it was available.  Hogwood definitely had a fresh approach to these symphonies compared with the more traditional approach by Bernstein, Karajan or even Marriner.  I have the Mackerras' set on Telarc as well.  I do not have any Mozart by Pinnock but think the Hogwood's set may be more highly rated.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DarkAngel on October 25, 2009, 05:11:19 PM
BTW, I just started listening to this set by the AAM with Christopher Hogwood and the original lead violinists Monica Huggett and Catherine Mackintosh.  The performance on this HIP Mozart set has been outstanding.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41VVTVYVYQL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

I was going to follow up to see how you like the Hogwood/Lyre set, I love it also and listen to it on a regular basis.
Very valuable in that it is the most comprehensive set including many rare juvenille works by young Wolfie spanning 19 Cds.
Mostly recorded in glorious late analog (CDs 1-13) but even early DDD material sound great, Lyre label was far ahead of everyone
in early digital sound quality. Very detailed presentation with deep layered soundstage, love the bite in the strings, woodwinds float very nicely, and Hogwood's keyboard continuo expertly guides things along. These are excting performances with clarified textures providing
many memorable moments

This is far more than historical relic, still a serious contender for best set ever made
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Coopmv on October 25, 2009, 05:19:51 PM
I was going to follow up to see how you like the Hogwood/Lyre set, I love it also and listen to it on a regular basis.
Very valuable in that it is the most comprehensive set including many rare juvenille works by young Wolfie spanning 19 Cds.
Mostly recorded in glorious late analog (CDs 1-13) but even early DDD material sound great, Lyre label was far ahead of everyone
in early digital sound quality. Very detailed presentation with deep layered soundstage, love the bite in the strings, woodwinds float very nicely, and Hogwood's keyboard continuo expertly guides things along. These are excting performances with clarified textures providing
many memorable moments

This is far more than historical relic, still a serious contender for best set ever made

No question, the quality of the strings is just outstanding that I doubt the current AAM under Richard Egarr can hope to match anytime soon.  Monica Huggett and Catherine Mackintosh are among the best violinists of their generation.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DarkAngel on October 25, 2009, 05:26:17 PM
Stuart - will be interested in your 'overall' impressions of this box set - I own the Mackerras box, but would love to have a 'period instrument' set - Hogwood & Pinnock are the usually recommendations - would love to hear some more comments and maybe even other suggestions, if available?  Thanks all -  :)

Pinnock and Hogwood both sound noticeably different than MacKerras......
Although Mackerras has nice vibrant lifted rythms the modern instruments used have a heavier denser sound, plus 1980s Telarc recordings sound a bit soft and a touch opaque by comparison to Lyre or Archiv recording of the same time.

Hogwood provides the most extreme contrast to MacKerras, strings are much sharper sounding and musical textures are much more clarified.....like you are sitting closer to a smaller group. Also Hogwoods keyboard continuo is more prominent.

Pinnock being recorded many years after Hogwood takes a slightly more hybrid approach but still sounds closer to Hogwood than to MacKerras, for some the best of both worlds. But some people may not like the HIP stylings of Hogwood/Pinnock, if you want an updated fleeter version of Marriner or Tate then that would be MacKerras
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on October 27, 2009, 10:13:12 AM
If anyone felt able to recommend 'best' HIP recordings of the Clarinet Concerto, and the Flute & Harp Concerto, I'd be much obliged.

The only recordings I have are those on this CD, i.e. Marriner/Leister/Grafenauer/Graf:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41S1s8fUhML._SL500_AA240_.jpg)


Elgarian, my apologies - I missed the request for a recording of the flute & harp concerto. :)
My recommendation will maybe not be much of a surprise, the recording itself will hopefully be a very pleasant one! :)

(http://cover7.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/80/789480.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on November 03, 2009, 01:29:23 PM
Elgarian, my apologies - I missed the request for a recording of the flute & harp concerto. :)
My recommendation will maybe not be much of a surprise, the recording itself will hopefully be a very pleasant one! :)

(http://cover7.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/80/789480.jpg)

I didn't know that existed, and if I had known, I wouldn't have needed to ask for a recommendation! Many thanks for this - I shall seek it out.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on November 12, 2009, 08:23:57 AM
At PrestoClassical there's a good deal going at the moment on this box set:

(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/warnerclassics2564623372.jpg)

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/advsearch.php?composer=mozart&work=complete+sacred+music&performer=harnoncourt&medium=CD&label=warner&cat= (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/advsearch.php?composer=mozart&work=complete+sacred+music&performer=harnoncourt&medium=CD&label=warner&cat=)

I'm tempted by this - can someone please tell me if it's as good as I hope it is? (Eg. BBC Music Magazine: "an exceptional labour of love ...The overall sound is remarkably unified and the balance superb … A notable achievement." This tells me it sounds good - but what are the performances like? Are they truly HIP in spirit, and do they rock?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 12, 2009, 08:37:59 AM
At PrestoClassical there's a good deal going at the moment on this box set:

(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/warnerclassics2564623372.jpg)

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/advsearch.php?composer=mozart&work=complete+sacred+music&performer=harnoncourt&medium=CD&label=warner&cat= (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/advsearch.php?composer=mozart&work=complete+sacred+music&performer=harnoncourt&medium=CD&label=warner&cat=)

I'm tempted by this - can someone please tell me if it's as good as I hope it is? (Eg. BBC Music Magazine: "an exceptional labour of love ...The overall sound is remarkably unified and the balance superb … A notable achievement." This tells me it sounds good - but what are the performances like? Are they truly HIP in spirit, and do they rock?

Gurn likes 'em, he gives 'em a big 'Thumbs Up'... :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on November 12, 2009, 11:09:27 AM
Gurn likes 'em, he gives 'em a big 'Thumbs Up'... :)

That's the kind of thing I was hoping to hear. Thanks Gurn.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Coopmv on November 12, 2009, 01:53:19 PM
At PrestoClassical there's a good deal going at the moment on this box set:

(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/warnerclassics2564623372.jpg)

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/advsearch.php?composer=mozart&work=complete+sacred+music&performer=harnoncourt&medium=CD&label=warner&cat= (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/advsearch.php?composer=mozart&work=complete+sacred+music&performer=harnoncourt&medium=CD&label=warner&cat=)

I'm tempted by this - can someone please tell me if it's as good as I hope it is? (Eg. BBC Music Magazine: "an exceptional labour of love ...The overall sound is remarkably unified and the balance superb … A notable achievement." This tells me it sounds good - but what are the performances like? Are they truly HIP in spirit, and do they rock?

Sounds like a good deal with $3.95 (if applicable) shipping to the US.     ;D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on November 12, 2009, 08:24:41 PM
Gurn likes 'em, he gives 'em a big 'Thumbs Up'... :)

So does Sorin!  It's the only full set of Mozart's sacred music on period instruments to boot.  I bought mine for more than what that site is asking for them, so consider it a good deal too.

A slight disclaimer: in the future you may want to replace the recordings of the major pieces (the Requiem, Great Mass, etc.) with other recordings.  ;)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on November 13, 2009, 01:39:33 AM
A slight disclaimer: in the future you may want to replace the recordings of the major pieces (the Requiem, Great Mass, etc.) with other recordings.  ;)
Ah yes - I do already have recordings of the Requiem and the C Minor Mass, and I understand why you'd say that. The important thing at present is to be able to explore freely the rest of the sacred music through performances that are reliably good. Sounds like I have my answer. Thanks.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on December 01, 2009, 02:30:24 AM
There are times when I feel hopelessly at sea over the simplest of things. Can anyone shed any light on this conundrum? PrestoClassical are selling this box at an attractive price:

(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/warnerclassics2564623342.jpg)

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/boxsets.php?k=11&w=Warner+-+Mozart+250th+Anniversary+Edition (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/boxsets.php?k=11&w=Warner+-+Mozart+250th+Anniversary+Edition)

But on the Warner website we see this:

(http://www.warnerclassicsandjazz.com/thumb_image.php?bc=0825646233427&size=239)

http://www.warnerclassicsandjazz.com/release.php?release=4599 (http://www.warnerclassicsandjazz.com/release.php?release=4599)

They don't seem to be the same (look at the pictures), though they have the same catalogue number. Have two versions of this box been issued? One with Harnoncourt, Leppard and Koopman? And another version with just Harnoncourt? That seems unlikely, but ... Looking elsewhere - Amazon, jpc, MDT etc merely makes me more confused and doesn't resolve anything.

Does anyone know? Are they all the same box, mistakenly described and with differing pictures (??) Or are there two different issues?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: jlaurson on December 01, 2009, 02:34:08 AM
There are times when I feel hopelessly at sea over the simplest of things. Can anyone shed any light on this conundrum? PrestoClassical are selling this box at an attractive price:

But on the Warner website we see this:

They don't seem to be the same (look at the pictures), though they have the same catalogue number. Have two versions of this box been issued? One with Harnoncourt, Leppard and Koopman? And another version with just Harnoncourt? That seems unlikely, but ... Looking elsewhere - Amazon, jpc, MDT etc merely makes me more confused and doesn't resolve anything.

Does anyone know? Are they all the same box, mistakenly described and with differing pictures (??) Or are there two different issues?

They are the same, but not correctly described, either...
The re-print of the box (not the CDs) mentions (or omits, whichever it is) the fact that this set also includes the Leppard overtures and that the earlier symphonies are with Koopman.

25 - onward are with Harnoncourt, 17 - 27 with Koopman, German Dances & Les petits riens with Leppard.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on December 01, 2009, 03:22:09 AM
They are the same, but not correctly described, either...
The re-print of the box (not the CDs) mentions (or omits, whichever it is) the fact that this set also includes the Leppard overtures and that the earlier symphonies are with Koopman.

25 - onward are with Harnoncourt, 17 - 27 with Koopman, German Dances & Les petits riens with Leppard.

Amazing - a knowledgeable answer within mere minutes!

Thanks ever so much for clarifying this. So all that's changed in the reissue is the box itself... Excellent.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on December 06, 2009, 09:24:46 AM
Here goes with another major bout of HIP-questing. I'm currently listening to this:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41D34BMB8YL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

I'm three CDs into the exploration, and I'm hooked. In fact, I'm hooked, and amazed, because I expected to find the fortepiano 'difficult'. Well, I don't. In fact, truth to tell, I've never been fond of the sound of the modern piano, and quite often have been repelled by it. I think it's a physiological issue rather than a musical one - but this fortepiano is something else again. It's so delicate. It trips lightly, lifting the notes effortlessly into the air without those deep grinding sounds that a modern piano makes at the bottom end, and without those tooth-rattling clinkings that a modern piano spits out at the top. It sounds so perfectly Mozartian, and as if it were perfectly designed to complement the violin.

Given the attraction to the sheer sound of these instruments, I feel as if for the first time in my life, piano music has a chance. I don't want at this stage to go for solo fortepiano - I want to follow up on the kind of dialogue I've been enjoying between fortepiano and violin. The obvious place to delve into seems to be the piano concertos. And the obvious place to start seems to be Anima Eterna/Immerseel, since I know and love what they did with the Beethoven symphonies. Also Immerseel's box set of Mozart piano concertos can be had for only a little over £30.

Well, I listened to online samples and was a bit surprised by how relatively tame they seemed. And then I read on this forum a recommendation for Viviana Sofronitzki's set. There's an extended sample on her website which seemed, to me, to blow Immerseel out of the water. But of course it's only one sample; and her box costs a massive £70+. That's a huge commitment for someone in my position.

So my rather half-hearted inclination is to get Immerseel's box, as an affordable way into  HIP concertos played on fortepiano. But I'd be very interested to read people's thoughts in this area.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DarkAngel on December 06, 2009, 01:15:00 PM
Elgarian
The choices for complete Mozart piano concerto sets using forte piano are extremely limited, only three I know of:
Bilson
Immerseel
Sofronitzski

I have all three but only keep the Bilson for reference, great orchestral parts by Gardiner wasted on improperly balanced recording that reduces the scale of forte piano as well as giving it soft sound.

Immerseel has sound balance issues correctly worked out, but overall tempos are too relaxed and broadly paced for any HIP lover to be fully satisfied

Sofronitzski combines exciting vibrant playing with great properly balanced sound, best set so far, it is expensive available on a boutique label which may let it go out of print at any time. So I would say spend a little extra and get the Sofronitzsky while still available

There is still room for small improvement as heard on reference single CDs by Andreas Staier
but don't know when another complete great forte piano set will be available......best future chance is someone like Brautigam
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on December 07, 2009, 12:48:07 PM
Immerseel has sound balance issues correctly worked out, but overall tempos are too relaxed and broadly paced for any HIP lover to be fully satisfied
So I wasn't imagining it then, it seems (it's hard to really engage when samples are only half a minute long, even when there are lots of them).

Quote
Sofronitzski combines exciting vibrant playing with great properly balanced sound, best set so far, it is expensive available on a boutique label which may let it go out of print at any time. So I would say spend a little extra and get the Sofronitzsky while still available
I was afraid you'd say that. It's a lot of money - more than I've ever spent on a box of anything, in fact. I have to ask myself whether I want them as badly as all that (and then I ask myself 'but how can I know, without going ahead with it?'
Phew.

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 10, 2009, 06:40:37 AM
Elgarian,
Just so you don't suspect unanimity on this topic, I will come out now and say that I am very fond of my Bilson/Gardiner set, and don't necessarily agree with comments which suggest that it is in some way unworthy of your attention.

Bilson is an excellent pianist, and despite things I've read to the contrary, Gardiner and his team are very fine accompanists. If there are sound balance issues, I haven't heard them to the point where they interfere with my listening enjoyment.

It could well be that Sofronitsky's fireball approach gives more visceral pleasure. I don't know since I don't have those disks, but in the meanwhile, I have had and greatly enjoyed the Bilson/Gardiner for years, which puts me one up on anyone who doesn't have any at all. :)

Just sayin'...

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on December 10, 2009, 06:49:15 AM
Thanks for that, Gurn.

As it happens, I made my decision yesterday. I found 30 second samples of everything on both Immerseel and Sofronitzki sets, and played them over and over, several times through the whole lot. Within the inevitable limits imposed by those 30 second samples, I came to the conclusion that while Immerseel is very beautiful, there's an urgent intensity to Sofronitzki that would leave me forever wondering 'what if?', if I chose not to buy her set. So I took a deep breath and ordered one, partly on the grounds (suggested by DA) that it probably isn't going to stay around forever.

So I wait, a little anxiously - but it's a good anxiously.



Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 10, 2009, 07:12:53 AM
Thanks for that, Gurn.

As it happens, I made my decision yesterday. I found 30 second samples of everything on both Immerseel and Sofronitzki sets, and played them over and over, several times through the whole lot. Within the inevitable limits imposed by those 30 second samples, I came to the conclusion that while Immerseel is very beautiful, there's an urgent intensity to Sofronitzki that would leave me forever wondering 'what if?', if I chose not to buy her set. So I took a deep breath and ordered one, partly on the grounds (suggested by DA) that it probably isn't going to stay around forever.

So I wait, a little anxiously - but it's a good anxiously.

Urgent intensity has a lot of appeal... :)

Let us know. I'm gonna hold what I have for now. ;)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Franco on December 10, 2009, 07:34:02 AM
I am about to order the Brautigam box of the Mozart Piano Sonatas on BIS.

After listening to the samples, this seems like a nice addition to my only other complete set by Eschenbach.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 10, 2009, 07:39:08 AM
I am about to order the Brautigam box of the Mozart Piano Sonatas on BIS.

After listening to the samples, this seems like a nice addition to my only other complete set by Eschenbach.

I think that's a good choice, I enjoy mine. OTOH, I also enjoy my Eschenbach set, when thousands say they don't. Oh well... :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 10, 2009, 07:55:15 AM
I am about to order the Brautigam box of the Mozart Piano Sonatas on BIS.

After listening to the samples, this seems like a nice addition to my only other complete set by Eschenbach.

Franco - along w/ Gurn et al, I have the Brautigam Mozart box of Piano Sonatas (have two others, but on modern piano); just ordered Brautigam in the Haydn PSs - guess that I like the guy!  :D

Now concerning Mozart's Piano Concertos, the only fortepiano set that I own is w/ Bilson-Gardiner (the price was just right at the time!) - I too enjoy the box but find the piano 'in the distance'; at higher volumes, I'm quite pleased w/ the performances and will keep the set; I'd love to hear the one preferred by DA, but not for the current price of admission - will wait (maybe Harry can get Brilliant to make a deal!  ;) ;D) - Dave
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Mandryka on December 10, 2009, 08:59:49 AM
Elgarian
The choices for complete Mozart piano concerto sets using forte piano are extremely limited, only three I know of:
Bilson
Immerseel
Sofronitzski

I have all three but only keep the Bilson for reference, great orchestral parts by Gardiner wasted on badly balanced recording that dwarfs the scale of keyboard as well as giving it soft opaque sound.
I have Sofronitski and Bilson.

I must say, I can't see what the fuss is about with Sofronitski.

Sure, the orchestra sounds great. But where are the really insightful, special interpretations.?

That's not a rhetorical question entirely. There is a lot of music in that box and I may have missed something. But I would say that in every one I have heard between 20 and 27 I know more haunting recordings, though not necessarily HIP ones.

Bilson, on the other hand, can rise to major heights -- in 14, 22, 23, 24 he is really memorable, I think.



Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DarkAngel on December 10, 2009, 09:41:49 AM
Mandryka
Sounds like you are more likely to enjoy Immerseel's set, he has a slower more reflective style

Bilson.......
If there was not a sound balance issue it would be very good set for me, but forte piano sounds distant and slightly soft focus  like someone just cut volume as soon as forte piano takes over. This may be natural sound balance you hear from center seat of large hall, but I want to hear what is being played in greater detail and forte does not have the sound volume or projection to compete with orchestra from farther listening distance like modern grand piano.

The Immerseel & Sofronitzsky are balanced much closer listening perspective to forte piano so there is a more equal balance to keyboard & orchestra, and you hear the keyboard in sharper clearer detail. I would be very happy with Bilson if it had sound balance used for Immerseel & Sofronitzsky, love Gardiner's orchestral energy

I maybe more sensitive to this issue than others, but for me it is a problem...........
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 10, 2009, 11:38:33 AM
Bilson.......
If there was not a sound balance issue it would be very good set for me, but forte piano sounds distant and slightly soft focus  like someone just cut volume as soon as forte piano takes over. This may be natural sound balance you hear from center seat of large hall, but I want to hear what is being played in greater detail and forte does not have the sound volume or projection to compete with orchestra from farther listening distance like modern grand piano.

The Immerseel & Sofronitzsky are balanced much closer listening perspective to forte piano so there is a more equal balance to keyboard & orchestra, and you hear the keyboard in sharper clearer detail. I would be very happy with Bilson if it had sound balance used for Immerseel & Sofronitzsky, love Gardiner's orchestral energy

I maybe more sensitive to this issue than others, but for me it is a problem...........

DA,
As we've discussed elsewhere, there is little to say about why people can be in total agreement about 90% of the things they listen to, and for whatever reason they are NOT about the other 10%. I've heard what you're talking about, but I guess I just have made compensations for it and don't even pay attention to it any more. :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on December 10, 2009, 07:35:26 PM
I think the issue with the Bilson/Gardiner set can be alleviated by decent audio equipment.  Good sound stuffs pull the fortepiano nice and close... Or maybe I'm just listening to it too loudly!  ::)

Resisting the urge to throw up a link to my thread with samples over at CMM...  :-X
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on December 11, 2009, 02:35:45 AM
There is a lot of music in that box and I may have missed something. But I would say that in every one I have heard between 20 and 27 I know more haunting recordings, though not necessarily HIP ones.
The decision had to be HIP, in my case, because I specifically want the fortepiano. The real astonishment for me is not that I'm buying such an expensive box of Mozart piano concertos, but that I'm buying any box of Mozart piano concertos at all. Such is the distance I've travelled in the last year, thanks in large measure to the tips I've picked up here.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on December 13, 2009, 07:11:52 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41D34BMB8YL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

I keep coming back to this recent purchase, which I'd say is proving one of those distinctly mould-breaking experiences. I can't pin down exactly why. Some of these sonatas seem to instill a sense of quite profound revelation. I'm thinking for example of the one in D major, K306. It's almost as if I'm being privileged to listen in on a mysterious conversation between the violin and fortepiano - a conversation about something that I don't quite understand, but which is being conducted in such exquisite language that it really doesn't matter. Do you know what I mean? It's like the way we can't really understand what Eliot is saying at the end of Little Gidding, but nonetheless we hang on every nuance, in hope.

There are passages of such lyrical flightiness, expressed with such exhilaration, that it makes me actually laugh to hear them - maybe not quite a laugh - somewhere between a laugh and a gasp. And the sound of this recording is so delicious too. The acoustic is clear and reverberative - like 'being there'. The violin and the fortepiano sound so good that I can't help feeling that I know the music was always intended to really sound like this.

Really, I can't believe that this is me, listening in such a rapt manner, to Mozart violin sonatas that a year ago I wouldn't have expected to be able to listen to for more than five minutes without grumbling. I guess this is what original instruments, playing works of genius, by people who are clearly inspired through to their very bones, can do for us. jpc still have this set on offer for under 10 euros. If you don't get one, you'll regret it one day.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Mandryka on December 13, 2009, 07:23:34 AM
I have been really enjoying Bezuidenhout's 310 over the past few days -- just the drama of it takes your breath away. And the sounds he can make come out of that instrument were, to me, quite shocking (in a good way.)

The 475 on the CD is equally extraordinary, and nearly as enjoyable.

Playing Mozart Sturm und Drang style, with massive changes in dynamics, extended dramatic pauses, no jagged edge smoothed over, all discontinuities highlighted  -- is that way of doing it HIP?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 13, 2009, 07:52:10 AM
I have been really enjoying Bezuidenhout's 310 over the past few days -- just the drama of it takes your breath away. And the sounds he can make come out of that instrument were, to me, quite shocking (in a good way.)

The 475 on the CD is equally extraordinary, and nearly as enjoyable.

Playing Mozart Sturm und Drang style, with massive changes in dynamics, extended dramatic pauses, no jagged edge smoothed over, all discontinuities highlighted  -- is that way of doing it HIP?

Sounds like an interesting disk. I need to check and see if we Americans are worthy of it... :-\

Yes, it could be. There were not a lot of "rules" yet, vis-a-vis dynamics, and any individual player may have felt that he had license to pursue that avenue of expression and it would possibly have been remarked upon, but not forbidden. About the only thing that wasn't done was playing legato. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that this was because the pianists of the time had learned their trade on a harpsichord. In any case, there should be noticeable articulation. A very nice example of this can be found in the playing of Semerjian on ATMA (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61aG5q8ACOL._SL500_AA280_.jpg). His style would not be the most popular today (and indeed, he adopts it for Mozart, but plays Schubert much more legato; hurrah for him!) but would have been right at home in 1780. Note Beethoven's remark to Ries about having heard Mozart play; "he played very choppy". 

There are people who could undoubtedly give you a much better appreciation of what 'HIP' keyboard style consists in, although I think it would entail reading a book or two... :-\

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Collegium Musicum 90 / Richard Hickox - Hob 01 101 Symphony in D 3rd mvmt - Menuet & Trio: Allegretto
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 13, 2009, 10:09:08 AM
Well, I finally acquired a Wolfie HIP Symphony box w/ Pinnock - debated for months between him & Hogwood, but I guess the Pinnock price, reveiws, and comments from Harry in the listening thread pushed me toward Pinnock.  I've been listening to these works the last 3 days and just have a couple of discs remaining - excellent sound & performances - the cover art for my box is different from that usually shown, but these are the '93-95 recordings.

(http://www.israbox.com/uploads/posts/2009-08/1251010815_thumb_23082ffb5bb2daec569ee2.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Coopmv on December 13, 2009, 10:36:24 AM
Well, I finally acquired a Wolfie HIP Symphony box w/ Pinnock - debated for months between him & Hogwood, but I guess the Pinnock price, reveiws, and comments from Harry in the listening thread pushed me toward Pinnock.  I've been listening to these works the last 3 days and just have a couple of discs remaining - excellent sound & performances - the cover art for my box is different from that usually shown, but these are the '93-95 recordings.

(http://www.israbox.com/uploads/posts/2009-08/1251010815_thumb_23082ffb5bb2daec569ee2.jpg)

This set does look interesting.  I have almost all the Pinnock's baroque recordings, including those of Haydn's works.  I consider many of Pinnock's recordings of Bach and Handel works from the 80's remain to be my personal gold standards to this day.  At any rate, I only had the chance to listen to one of his Mozart Symphonies performance on my local classical station and was not particularly struck by it.  Hey, at less than half of what I paid for my Hogwood's set, it probably is well worth the money ...    ;D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on December 14, 2009, 03:01:57 AM
One can never predict how someone else will respond, but my box of Pinnock's Mozart symphonies just gathers dust. Period instruments they may be (and that's why I bought it in the first place), but I find the performances curiously lifeless - more like documentations than performances.

I bought the Warner box of Mozart symphonies recently, so I've been listening to Harnoncourt's recordings of the later symphonies, and have been pleasantly surprised to find them far more engaging, vital, and persuasive - period instruments or no.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DarkAngel on December 14, 2009, 05:18:27 AM
Elgarian
If you wish to supplement your Warner Harnoncourt/RCO symphony box there are a couple 2CD sets of the early & misc. symphonies available............I think these symphonies are missing from that set  ;)
(I have these two BTW and they are fresh lively renditions well worth owning)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lcbzuqlmL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WvqtBuFsL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/514GCGRWJSL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

We can't be comfortable knowing we have an incomplete set now can we.......... ;)

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: sTisTi on December 14, 2009, 09:07:18 AM
Elgarian
If you wish to supplement your Warner Harnoncourt/RCO symphony box there are a couple 2CD sets of the early & misc. symphonies available............I think these symphonies are missing from that set  ;)
(I have these two BTW and they are fresh lively renditions well worth owning)
Please enlighten me what you like about the Harnoncourt/RCO performances :-\ In general I like him very much as a conductor and have lots of works from the Baroque period that I love, but his Mozart completely eludes me.

I have two discs (35&36 and 40&41) and find them the most perverse readings I've ever heard, and it's not a pleasant experience for me to listen to them ???. It's hard to describe what bothers me exactly, but somehow the performances do not "flow", Harnoncourt insists on micro-managing every accent and phrase, it all seems like the symphonies are stitched together from bits and pieces that very desperately want to express something but somehow fail to make a convincing whole. It all sounds very mannered, with exaggerated dynamics and some strange speeds. I feel Harnoncourt tries to be different from all other interpretations (like in his ridiculously slow Overture to Le Nozze di Figaro) just to make a point.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on December 14, 2009, 09:28:13 AM
We can't be comfortable knowing we have an incomplete set now can we.......... ;)

Ha! How well you understand that addictive streak, DA. However, in this case I have so much new Mozart to listen to that I can rest content with my Warner box ... for now..... My Sofronitzi box of Mozart fortepiano concertos arrived today, so add that to the Warner symphonies, the utterly delectable Mozart fortepiano sonatas box (which I can't stop listening to), and the Warner Mozart Sacred Music box, and that looks like an awful lot of Mozart to absorb before I start worrying about the little gaps!
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DarkAngel on December 14, 2009, 09:38:23 AM
Please enlighten me what you like about the Harnoncourt/RCO performances :-\ In general I like him very much as a conductor and have lots of works from the Baroque period that I love, but his Mozart completely eludes me.

I have two discs (35&36 and 40&41) and find them the most perverse readings I've ever heard, and it's not a pleasant experience for me to listen to them ???. It's hard to describe what bothers me exactly, but somehow the performances do not "flow", Harnoncourt insists on micro-managing every accent and phrase, it all seems like the symphonies are stitched together from bits and pieces that very desperately want to express something but somehow fail to make a convincing hole. It all sounds very mannered, with exaggerated dynamics and some strange speeds. I feel Harnoncourt tries to be different from all other interpretations (like in his ridiculously slow Overture to Le Nozze di Figaro) just to make a point.

Sorry can't comment on the RCO symphony 41-25 series by Harnoncourt, only have the two early symphony sets seen above recorded in 1999-2000 with Concentus Musicus Wien which are done very nicely.

This is same team that did the Harnoncourt Haydn Paris symphony set in 2001-2002 which also turned out very nice..........

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61FW9MBCSJL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DarkAngel on December 14, 2009, 09:47:11 AM
Ha! How well you understand that addictive streak, DA. However, in this case I have so much new Mozart to listen to that I can rest content with my Warner box ... for now..... My Sofronitzi box of Mozart fortepiano concertos arrived today, so add that to the Warner symphonies, the utterly delectable Mozart fortepiano sonatas box (which I can't stop listening to), and the Warner Mozart Sacred Music box, and that looks like an awful lot of Mozart to absorb before I start worrying about the little gaps!

Nice...........
A temporary victory lap can be taken to enjoy your spoils........but soon that nagging desire for more will return
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 14, 2009, 10:49:36 AM
Please enlighten me what you like about the Harnoncourt/RCO performances :-\ In general I like him very much as a conductor and have lots of works from the Baroque period that I love, but his Mozart completely eludes me.

I have two discs (35&36 and 40&41) and find them the most perverse readings I've ever heard, and it's not a pleasant experience for me to listen to them ???. It's hard to describe what bothers me exactly, but somehow the performances do not "flow", Harnoncourt insists on micro-managing every accent and phrase, it all seems like the symphonies are stitched together from bits and pieces that very desperately want to express something but somehow fail to make a convincing whole. It all sounds very mannered, with exaggerated dynamics and some strange speeds. I feel Harnoncourt tries to be different from all other interpretations (like in his ridiculously slow Overture to Le Nozze di Figaro) just to make a point.

Despite the fact that Harnoncourt is one of my favorite conductors, your post hits it for me. It took me a long time to warm to him, precisely because the first disk of his that I got happened to be that incredibly bizarre Mozart Overtures disk. That Figaro overture made me gag on first hearing (and every one since. I tried). However, once I got past that, and his Mozart/Haydn works with modern orchestras, I did find a lot to like with Harnoncourt. If he tries to play Figaro again though, I'll hit him with a stick! >:(

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Coopmv on December 14, 2009, 08:03:00 PM
One can never predict how someone else will respond, but my box of Pinnock's Mozart symphonies just gathers dust. Period instruments they may be (and that's why I bought it in the first place), but I find the performances curiously lifeless - more like documentations than performances.

I bought the Warner box of Mozart symphonies recently, so I've been listening to Harnoncourt's recordings of the later symphonies, and have been pleasantly surprised to find them far more engaging, vital, and persuasive - period instruments or no.

I certainly have enjoyed the Hogwood's Mozart box set ...
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on December 31, 2009, 02:11:05 AM
Here's a brilliant recording by Andreas Stein and Christine Schornsheim from Harmonia Mundi of assorted preludes, sonatas, variations and other keyboard works by Mozart performed on a unique instrument that combines a 3 manual harpsichord at one end and a fortepiano with moderator stop at the other end.  The tonal variety for this instrument as played by these two virtuosos is stunning.  Be sure to listen carefully to track 10, which is an improvisation by the two musicians.  The fact that such an instrument would have been made in 1777 demonstrates that the harpsichord was still being used along side the piano far longer than I would have suspected. 

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0794881834129.jpg)

I know I will be in minority here, but I think that Stein vis-à-vis finally doesn't work out like a single instrument because of the insuperable tonal variety and multiple other differences between a fortepiano and a triple-manual harpsichord. When I listening to this recording, I always have certain feeling of discomfort with those percussive features that the instrument brings to the music: it's like a constant fight between the harpsichord and the fortepiano, where the latter is always in disadvantage. Anyway, a curious experiment.

Antoine, I'm not sure if you would be in the minority but I can confirm some of your points.  :) It being one instrument does produce another balance and, as it seems to me, also some tonal interference/blending of sound. The fortepiano actually sounds here a bit like a tangent piano to my ears. To me this this disc sounds as a lot of exhilarating fun! ;D

Anyway, for those who like to hear it:

http://www.youtube.com/v/iw7bSzETbH4 http://www.youtube.com/v/J0LI34kYMWE

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DarkAngel on December 31, 2009, 05:28:25 AM
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0794881834129.jpg)

OK now I understand the premise of the CD, I thought it was basically a duet/2 keyboard collection........but it does more exploration by using harpsicord and forte piano together since during that time (late 1700s) both existed and were still being used. Not sure that any composer ever envisioned them being used together at the same time but an interesting experiment.

Is it really that different than using different sounds/tones of violin, viola, cello together in music? All small chamber music pieces combine different instruments together in interesting ways.......youtube samples sound great, look forward to delivery
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DarkAngel on December 31, 2009, 05:43:08 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61FTEH1VCJL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

BTW another Staier/Schornsheim project is this CD I also ordered, a snapshot sampling of the great keyboard composers works from Hamburg 1734...........this is very interesting concept that I hope they continue and progress in time intervals and regions  :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 31, 2009, 05:51:00 AM
OK now I understand the premise of the CD, I thought it was basically a duet/2 keyboard collection........but it does more exploration by using harpsicord and forte piano together since during that time (late 1700s) both existed and were still being used. Not sure that any composer ever envisioned them being used together at the same time but an interesting experiment.

Is it really that different than using different sounds/tones of violin, viola, cello together in music? All small chamber music pieces combine different instruments together in interesting ways.......youtube samples sound great, look forward to delivery

Concerto for Harpsichord and Piano in E flat major, Wq 479 by Carl Philipp Emmanuel Bach
Performer:  Robert Hill (Fortepiano), Léon Berben (Harpsichord)
Conductor:  Reinhard Goebel
Orchestra/Ensemble:  Musica Antiqua Cologne
Period: Classical
Written: 1788; Hamburg, Germany

and several other versions too. Of course, CPE was a visionary... :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on December 31, 2009, 06:07:56 AM
Of course, CPE was a visionary... :)

8)

And the son of an OK composer.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Mozart on February 04, 2010, 08:48:25 PM
Im looking for a good set of piano trios  (= Anyone?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 04, 2010, 09:03:14 PM
Im looking for a good set of piano trios  (= Anyone?

On period instruments: The Mozartean Players [Steven Lubin, pianoforte; Stanley Ritchie, violin & Myron Lutzke, cello] recorded the complete piano trios on Harmonia Mundi (2 CDs). It is a superb version.   :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on February 04, 2010, 10:58:00 PM
On period instruments: The Mozartean Players [Steven Lubin, pianoforte; Stanley Ritchie, violin & Myron Lutzke, cello] recorded the complete piano trios on Harmonia Mundi (2 CDs). It is a superb version.   :)

Strongly seconded - an easy first choice! :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51G20YXTRDL._SS400_.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on February 05, 2010, 01:54:13 AM
On period instruments: The Mozartean Players [Steven Lubin, pianoforte; Stanley Ritchie, violin & Myron Lutzke, cello] recorded the complete piano trios on Harmonia Mundi (2 CDs). It is a superb version.   :)

I bought this old Hyperion set by the London Fortepiano Trio recently:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51JPHN31JJL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

It all sounds pretty good to me, but I have nothing to compare the performances with. (Gramophone said nice things about them in 1985.) Does anyone know how it compares with the Mozartean Players set?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on February 05, 2010, 05:13:54 AM
It all sounds pretty good to me, but I have nothing to compare the performances with. (Gramophone said nice things about them in 1985.) Does anyone know how it compares with the Mozartean Players set?

I've heard both the Mozartean Players and the Beaux Arts Trio (but not yours sorry), and both brought reactions of hohum good but not great.  I'm tempted to lean towards it being the works themselves.  I didn't think that there was anything revelatory about the Mozartean Players either, they just sounded a little more balanced.  The piano quartets are great, but the trios... I don't know I think I'll just play Haydn instead.  I mean they are pretty good, but they don't really stand at the same towering height as many of his (Mozart) other chamber works. :-\
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DarkAngel on February 05, 2010, 06:44:06 AM
I bought this old Hyperion set by the London Fortepiano Trio recently:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51JPHN31JJL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

It all sounds pretty good to me, but I have nothing to compare the performances with. (Gramophone said nice things about them in 1985.) Does anyone know how it compares with the Mozartean Players set?

Don't have the Hyperion you show above, but do have the HM issue shown by Que above which is very good.......
If you don't already have it please consider the excellent Hadyn Piano Trio 10 CD boxset on Brilliant:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VMS5SAR7L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DarkAngel on February 05, 2010, 06:53:30 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61TAAJQ0NVL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Recently ordered this HIP Kuijken sonata set to go with Perlman and Mutter sets, have been really enjoying violin/piano sonatas by Mozart, Beethoven, Bach recently  :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61CeX5uhZ-L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NXHV2ZWRL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on February 05, 2010, 06:56:17 AM
[H]ave been really enjoying violin/piano sonatas by... Bach recently  :)

Ahem, he did not write any.

;)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 05, 2010, 08:07:16 AM
I didn't think that there was anything revelatory about the Mozartean Players either, they just sounded a little more balanced.  The piano quartets are great, but the trios...

Well, it's hard to enjoy even the best performances if you don't enjoy the music itself… and the question was about the piano trios.  :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on February 05, 2010, 09:53:52 AM
Well, it's hard to enjoy even the best performances if you don't enjoy the music itself… and the question was about the piano trios.  :)

I was talking about the trios, WHAT are you talking about?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 05, 2010, 10:05:19 AM
I was talking about the trios, WHAT are you talking about?

I’m sorry, I thought you were talking about why you are not interested in the trios.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on February 05, 2010, 10:19:34 AM
I’m sorry, I thought you were talking about why you are not interested in the trios.

No, I am interested in the trios.  My point is that

(a) the interpretative range is pretty limited, there is not alot of variation between recordings if I can listen to polar opposite approaches and they still sound about the same (something that can't be said about Haydn's trios btw)

(b) since they are not great, simply good it's hardly worth looking for some special recording that brings out the greatness, it doesn't exist.

(c) the Mozartean Players are not great, merely competent.

In short I'm answering his post, that in my opinion don't bother buying the Mozartean Players recording.  You may disagree with me, which is fine, but you don't you dare tell me to shut up.  You are not forum cop around here.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on February 05, 2010, 10:32:26 AM
No, I am interested in the trios.  My point is that

(a) the interpretative range is pretty limited, there is not alot of variation between recordings if I can listen to polar opposite approaches and they still sound about the same (something that can't be said about Haydn's trios btw)

(b) since they are not great, simply good it's hardly worth looking for some special recording that brings out the greatness, it doesn't exist.

(c) the Mozartean Players are not great, merely competent.

Respectfully disagree with those points, David.
I have found that is much more quality in the music than I ever imagined - to my delight. :) And it was the recording by the Mozartean that revealed it, not the Beaux Arts recording, which comes from another planet as far as I'm concerned.  8)

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on February 05, 2010, 10:56:22 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61TAAJQ0NVL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Recently ordered this HIP Kuijken sonata set

I had (and still have) nothing to compare those recordings with, but:
(a) The sheer sound of them proved addictive. The acoustic may be a little too reverberative for some, on the earlier discs, but I entirely loved it. Wonderful sense of immediacy.
(b) There was a period of a couple of  weeks where I chose to play almost nothing else - just cycled through the discs over and over.

I'll always associate these recordings with Harry, who persistently encouraged me to buy them when they were available at an incredible bargain price from jpc, and I'm so, so glad that he did!
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Mozart on February 05, 2010, 12:46:24 PM
I found this cd in my collection with the convenient tittle mozart music with fortepiano on period instruments
http://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Fortepiano-Instruments-Andantino-Fantasia/dp/B000003X9Z/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1265402392&sr=1-1

Besides the piano trio I wanted to hear, the cd has the c minor fantasia played better than i've ever heard. uhhghgh hauntingly good...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0d5gTHL7x4

Its great when you look for one thing and end up with something entirely different.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 05, 2010, 03:59:06 PM
Respectfully disagree with those points, David.
I have found that is much more quality in the music than I ever imagined - to my delight. :) And it was the recording by the Mozartean that revealed it, not the Beaux Arts recording, which comes from another planet as far as I'm concerned.  8)

Hi David - well, I'd have to agree w/ Q et al on Steven Lubin & the Mozartean Players in the the Wolfie Piano Trios (also have the same performers in the Piano Quartets) - in fact, just put on the first disc for a repeat listening (has been a while) - I have an older copy (in fact the liner notes CDs as being 'cassette sides' -  :D).  Interestingly, these works are listed as K.254, then jumping to K.496 and higher to K.564 - on the earlier work now - the latter are more mature, so not sure if that might be an issue?

But, I do enjoy these works and have had these discs for a while - let the fracas continue -  ;) ;D

Hope all is going well w/ you - Dave  :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Brahmsian on February 05, 2010, 05:55:33 PM
I think Mozart's piano trios are very good.  Not nearly his bread & butter in the chamber field, but still very good.  I happen to enjoy them just as much as Haydn's.  Perhaps if he had written 79,000 like Papa J, his would be rated just as high.

Beethoven is the King of piano trios, hands down.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on February 05, 2010, 06:01:24 PM
I think Mozart's piano trios are very good.  Not nearly his bread & butter in the chamber field, but still very good.  I happen to enjoy them just as much as Haydn's.  Perhaps if he had written 79,000 like Papa J, his would be rated just as high.

Ah no way!  Haydn's London ones are some of the finest chamber works of the classical era, it has absolutely nothing to do with quantity.

Quote
Beethoven is the King of piano trios, hands down.

One of them is actually my favorite work, but overall if I were to pick the king for the trios, I would pick Brahms.  They paradoxically sound both intimate and majestic. 8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Brahmsian on February 05, 2010, 06:06:39 PM
One of them is actually my favorite work, but overall if I were to pick the king for the trios, I would pick Brahms.  They paradoxically sound both intimate and majestic. 8)

I was just going to mention Brahms, David.  I just thought it would seem too 'Brahmsian' on my part to do so.  ;D

As with pretty much everything Brahms touched in the chamber genre, the piano trios are golden!  Love them dearly!
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 05, 2010, 06:09:15 PM
Just a follow-up to my previous post on the Mozart Piano Trios showing an 'older' release cover art and the liner notes w/ the 'cassette' listings - OH, does that bring back some old times for this media!  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/MozartPianoTrios1/781800388_yPDKB-O.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/MozartPianoTrios2/781800393_595nq-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Scarpia on February 05, 2010, 06:19:26 PM
I must say I find Mozart's piano trios to be rather dull, not nearly comparable to the piano quartets, where the keyboard and string section are both independent units in dialog with each other.  In the Trios, it seems like a piano sonata with the base line and melody accentuated by the string instruments, sort of like the older Haydn Trios.  I have the Harmonia Mundi recordings, as well as some others on Hyperion, none do anything for me, really.

For the Quartets I have an HIP recording on the ASV label that is "da bomb."
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: jlaurson on February 05, 2010, 06:27:20 PM
Just a follow-up to my previous post on the Mozart Piano Trios showing an 'older' release cover art and the liner notes w/ the 'cassette' listings - OH, does that bring back some old times for this media!  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/MozartPianoTrios1/781800388_yPDKB-O.jpg) 

This is the third, maybe fourth, re-release... love those recordings. I pushed them on non-HIP-allergic customers when they were on the (unfortunately ugly looking) HMU Classics Express line for $4.99.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: karlhenning on February 05, 2010, 07:15:33 PM
Ugly covers for Mozart is so . . . WRONG!
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Scarpia on February 05, 2010, 07:18:31 PM
Ugly covers for Mozart is so . . . WRONG!

Verb conjugation is so wrong.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: karlhenning on February 05, 2010, 07:24:34 PM
Take it to the Grumble ; )
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 05, 2010, 07:32:56 PM
For the Quartets I have an HIP recording on the ASV label that is "da bomb."

Curious what it might be (without having to do a bunch of research... :) )

8)


----------------
Listening to:
Andrew Manze & The English Concert - K 525  Serenade in G for Strings 2nd mvmt - Romance: Andante
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Scarpia on February 05, 2010, 07:40:21 PM
Curious what it might be (without having to do a bunch of research... :) )

8)

Just looked it up, Sonnerie, and outfit that includes Monica Hugget

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/618W9Q0WDML._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Best single disc of Mozart Chamber music I have, I'd say.  Cover's ugly, admittedly.  For some reason they reserve the nekkid ladies for the Scriabin covers.   ;D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 06, 2010, 07:18:30 AM
Just looked it up, Sonnerie, and outfit that includes Monica Hugget

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/618W9Q0WDML._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Best single disc of Mozart Chamber music I have, I'd say.  Cover's ugly, admittedly.  For some reason they reserve the nekkid ladies for the Scriabin covers.   ;D

Oh, excellent, thanks for the info. I have a couple disks by them and like 'em. All those Gaudeamus covers are ugly, but the music's good, so I guess that makes up for. :D

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidRoss on February 06, 2010, 08:54:44 AM
Ugly covers for Mozart is so . . . WRONG!

Yesss.  This is what sells in today's market:

(http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m4/feb2010/0/0/lady-gaga-and-elton-john-pic-wireimage-getty-images-889129166.jpg)

Tres chic.  The end is nigh.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DarkAngel on February 06, 2010, 09:41:14 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413U0oVtHML._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

It being one instrument does produce another balance and, as it seems to me, also some tonal interference/blending of sound. The fortepiano actually sounds here a bit like a tangent piano to my ears. To me this this disc sounds as a lot of exhilarating fun! ;D

Anyway, for those who like to hear it:

http://www.youtube.com/v/iw7bSzETbH4 http://www.youtube.com/v/J0LI34kYMWE

I am a huge Staier fan.......and performances like this only fan the flames!
Everything Andreas Staier touches comes to life for me like "almost" no other artist, those samples say it all, I love this CD
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bunny on February 06, 2010, 11:21:09 AM
Just looked it up, Sonnerie, and outfit that includes Monica Hugget

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/618W9Q0WDML._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Best single disc of Mozart Chamber music I have, I'd say.  Cover's ugly, admittedly.  For some reason they reserve the nekkid ladies for the Scriabin covers.   ;D

It's not that ugly --  I was imagining something truly execrable!
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: George on February 06, 2010, 12:35:56 PM
It's not that ugly --  I was imagining something truly execrable!

Yep, I actually like it. *shrugs*
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bulldog on February 06, 2010, 01:07:33 PM
Yep, I actually like it. *shrugs*

I like it also, but I can see how some folks would consider it gaudy.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bulldog on February 06, 2010, 01:12:32 PM
I've heard both the Mozartean Players and the Beaux Arts Trio (but not yours sorry), and both brought reactions of hohum good but not great.  I'm tempted to lean towards it being the works themselves.  I didn't think that there was anything revelatory about the Mozartean Players either, they just sounded a little more balanced.  The piano quartets are great, but the trios... I don't know I think I'll just play Haydn instead.  I mean they are pretty good, but they don't really stand at the same towering height as many of his (Mozart) other chamber works. :-\

I find the Mozartean Players set the best I've heard of the Piano Trios.  I do agree that the Trios are not as rewarding as Mozart's Violin Sonatas or Piano Quartets.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 06, 2010, 01:14:50 PM
It's not that ugly --  I was imagining something truly execrable!

Bun,
You being a Mozart fan, I bet you get that this is a bit of a send-up, yes? There is a journal or letter somewhere that is very often quoted in the Mozart literature. The author (I shouldn't be so lazy and just look it up, but...) talks about the current "season" in Vienna and some new works by Mozart which he saw performed by professionals "last evening", and didn't even realize they were the same works which he had heard a few dozen times at private soirées where amateur pianist ladies and their admiring gentlemen string player/suitors had butchered the pieces all-to-be-damned because they were so difficult when played correctly. It is precisely what is pictured on the cover shown. The works in question? Yup, the Piano Quartets. I really think the cover designer meant it as a reference to that document. I personally was amused. :D

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bunny on February 06, 2010, 02:25:59 PM
Bun,
You being a Mozart fan, I bet you get that this is a bit of a send-up, yes? There is a journal or letter somewhere that is very often quoted in the Mozart literature. The author (I shouldn't be so lazy and just look it up, but...) talks about the current "season" in Vienna and some new works by Mozart which he saw performed by professionals "last evening", and didn't even realize they were the same works which he had heard a few dozen times at private soirées where amateur pianist ladies and their admiring gentlemen string player/suitors had butchered the pieces all-to-be-damned because they were so difficult when played correctly. It is precisely what is pictured on the cover shown. The works in question? Yup, the Piano Quartets. I really think the cover designer meant it as a reference to that document. I personally was amused. :D

8)

You know, when I saw the cover I realized that somewhere in my collection I have that album!  If the cover is meant as a send up, I'm not sure that the painting is quite the right one to use.  The painting which is quite well known, was commissioned by George, 3rd Earl Cowper (he stands in profile in the middle) to celebrate his engagement to Hannah Anne Gore (redundant names?!).  Cowper is shown with Anne's family, her father and sister on cello and square fortepiano; her mother and other sister in conversation while reading or sketching - the 18th century version of a Norman Rockwell family vignette.  However, the painting hanging behind Anne is an allegory: Hercules ejecting Calumny from a wedding.  It refers to the gossip about Earl Cowper's rakish ways, he lived as a British expatriate in Italy where he was a noted philanderer. I wonder how the 16 year old Anne really felt about this marriage to Cowper who was in his late 30s.  Is this the rake tamed? Or merely another target for the Earl's lust? The sense of unease is further heightened by the fact that Anne's family are completely oblivious of the Earl, staring intently at their daughter who returns his look with a grave expression.  Things are not what they seem here.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on February 10, 2010, 01:41:23 PM
I'd like to make a preliminary report on my Great Mozart Piano Concerto Experiment.

The story so far: First, after lengthy anguishing, I bought the horrendously expensive box of HIP concertos with Viviana Sofronitzki on fortepiano, conducted by Tadeusz Karolak:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w183/front/0/4012476841519.jpg)

I listened to quite a lot of the discs - some several times over, and found myself more and more charmed, enchanted, excited, enticed, beguiled by them. This was a huge breakthrough - I've never been fond of the piano, never much enjoyed piano concertos, never cared tuppence for Mozart's in particular; yet here I was, unexpectedly listening over and over and wanting to listen to nothing else. And I started to ask - does the HIP performance really make all this difference? The difference between light and dark? Between Yes and No? I wanted a non-HIP set for comparison, to see how much change had been going on in me, rather than in the type of performance I was listening to.

jpc were selling the Annerose Schmidt/Kurt Masur box for a merely nominal sum, so I sent for one. Shortly afterwards Navneeth pointed out that they were selling the Brendel/Marriner set for not much more, so, fearing the Schmidt/Masur might be rather mediocre, I took the plunge and sent for that as well. They've both arrived:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w183/front/0/0782124024628.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/w183/front/0/0028948025992.jpg)

I've made a first tentative start to the experiment by listening to the 25th (K503), first by Sofronizki, second by Schmidt, third by Brendel. The result - I'm really quite stunned.

I think the Sofronitzki is terrific - vital, rippling playing from the fortepiano, sharp orchestral playing, lovely crunchy HIP sounds - just the thing that's been wowing me for the last couple of weeks.  A winner all the way. So when I put the Schmidt/Masur into the player I expected to be crushingly disappointed.

Well, it sure isn't HIP. And of course the piano sound is so much rounder and smoother and more mellow than the fortepiano. But I was shocked by how much I was being swept along by the music. The orchestral playing is incisive, decisive, urgent, and convincing. Schmidt plays with conviction and vitality. I reached the end amazed and delighted that I seemed to have found a completely different way of enjoying the piano concertos. So then I put on the Brendel and expected to be sent into spasms of ecstasy.

Well... I was surprised to find it was a live recording, so the playing field is certainly not level - but oh, oh, oh, this is everything I used to think Mozart was. The orchestral sound is big, cloudy, imprecise. Brendel plays with astounding skill - so much so that it's impossible to figure how he melds one note into another in the way he does. But where's the humour - the delight, the thrill of discovery, the sharp transitions from heart-stopping beauty to pensive contemplation, to delight, and then back again? This sounds like the kind of Mozart my Mum and Dad would have listened to, if they'd liked Mozart. Smoothed-out Mozart; smeared out Mozart. Mozart to doze by.

You know the first few minutes of the third movement? The best test I could think of was the degree to which I find myself smiling as that jaunty, cheeky tune is first introduced by the orchestra,  then followed by the rippling piano. With Sofronitzki I'm smiling in little fits and starts; with Schmidt, amazingly, I'm smiling non-stop, except for a bar or two where she discovers a reason for sober contemplation, then off we go again. But with Brendel, oh dear, I don't smile at all. I'm full of admiration for the meltingly gorgeous skill, but where's the feeling?

So at the close of round 1, I'm deeply puzzled. My prime allegiance is still to the HIP Sofronitzki. She's early Elvis, at Sun records, rockin' and rollin'. The real thing. But my goodness, there's something to be said for Schmidt and Mazur, who really seem to know where they're going. They're like later Elvis, more polished but emphatic and powerful - yet importantly, pre-Army. Brendel and Marriner seem like post-army Elvis - the sanitised, Elvis-made-safe, suitable for family listening.

In short - this has proved to be a fascinating exercise. When, after some years' time, I've worked my way through all of these concertos in triplicate like this, maybe I shall understand this HIP-business a little better?

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 10, 2010, 01:47:18 PM
Does this mean that Brendel is like old, fat Elvis then?  :)

I am very pleased that you are having this experience.  0:)

8)

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Scarpia on February 10, 2010, 02:05:55 PM
Does this mean that Brendel is like old, fat Elvis then?  :)

I am very pleased that you are having this experience.  0:)

8)

And Uchida is the Pat Boone of Mozart PCs.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidRoss on February 10, 2010, 02:07:56 PM
I listened to quite a lot of the discs - some several times over, and found myself more and more charmed, enchanted, excited, enticed, beguiled by them. This was a huge breakthrough - I've never been fond of the piano, never much enjoyed piano concertos, never cared tuppence for Mozart's in particular; yet here I was, unexpectedly listening over and over and wanting to listen to nothing else.
Congratulations, Alan, you've opened the door to several treasure troves at once:  Mozart in general, piano concertos in general, and Mozart's piano concertos in particular--one of the finest bodies of work in all of classical music.

And Uchida is the Pat Boone of Mozart PCs.
Another point on which we disagree.  (Is there no end to them?)  Though I admire the wit of your comparison, I think the apt target is not Uchida, but Jeffrey Tate. ;)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on February 10, 2010, 02:35:10 PM
Does this mean that Brendel is like old, fat Elvis then?

Oh no, I wouldn't be so horrible as to suggest that. No, he's more like the I-wannabee-a-crooner-like-Dean- Martin Elvis of the post-army early 60s.

(I am rather hoping that this somewhat negative Brendel experience will turn out to be just a bad hair day on his and Marriner's part.)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on February 10, 2010, 02:38:18 PM
Congratulations, Alan, you've opened the door to several treasure troves at once:  Mozart in general, piano concertos in general, and Mozart's piano concertos in particular--one of the finest bodies of work in all of classical music.

Good to see you round and about again, Dave. Yes, doors and windows keep banging open almost daily, at present. Exciting times.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 10, 2010, 02:46:25 PM
Does this mean that Brendel is like old, fat Elvis then?  :)

Please, a little bit of respect for your King, Texan boy.  >:(  :)

Another point on which we disagree.  (Is there no end to them?)  Though I admire the wit of your comparison, I think the apt target is not Uchida, but Jeffrey Tate. ;)

I totally agree with David; Uchida is a superb pianist and a great Mozartian.

Here she has eliminated some extra-weight (=Tate):


http://www.youtube.com/v/3dkK1iw2SMk
   


 :)

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Scarpia on February 10, 2010, 02:47:42 PM
(I am rather hoping that this somewhat negative Brendel experience will turn out to be just a bad hair day on his and Marriner's part.)

The Brendel recordings were some of my first experiences with the Mozart PCs.  I loved the music instantly, but gradually Brendel/Marriner was replaced as my recording of choice for every concerto.  I still enjoy Brendel's playing, but not Marriner.  You might try a few of the more recent Brendel/Mackerras recordings.  Also, I regard Schiff's cycle on Decca as my favorite overall set.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: jlaurson on February 10, 2010, 02:53:11 PM
The Brendel recordings were some of my first experiences with the Mozart PCs.  I loved the music instantly, but gradually Brendel/Marriner was replaced as my recording of choice for every concerto.  I still enjoy Brendel's playing, but not Marriner.  You might try a few of the more recent Brendel/Mackerras recordings.  Also, I regard Schiff's cycle on Decca as my favorite overall set.

I'm surprised we are even allowed to discuss Brendel (and Uchida) in the HIP Mozart thread. Are we not going to be taken to task for impurifying this hoallowed ground?  ;D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidRoss on February 10, 2010, 02:56:15 PM
I regard Schiff's cycle on Decca as my favorite overall set.
Aha!  We can agree!

I'm surprised we are even allowed to discuss Brendel (and Uchida) in the HIP Mozart thread. Are we not going to be taken to task for impurifying this hollowed ground?  ;D
Probably.  Do we care?  ;)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Scarpia on February 10, 2010, 02:59:38 PM
Aha!  We can agree!

It was bound to happen.

I'm surprised we are even allowed to discuss Brendel (and Uchida) in the HIP Mozart thread. Are we not going to be taken to task for impurifying this hollowed ground?  ;D

Technically, I think we can mention any non-HIP performer, as long as we include a condescending remark that they are decidedly not HIP.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on February 10, 2010, 04:44:16 PM
Well... I was surprised to find it was a live recording, so the playing field is certainly not level - but oh, oh, oh, this is everything I used to think Mozart was. The orchestral sound is big, cloudy, imprecise. Brendel plays with astounding skill - so much so that it's impossible to figure how he melds one note into another in the way he does. But where's the humour - the delight, the thrill of discovery, the sharp transitions from heart-stopping beauty to pensive contemplation, to delight, and then back again? This sounds like the kind of Mozart my Mum and Dad would have listened to, if they'd liked Mozart. Smoothed-out Mozart; smeared out Mozart. Mozart to doze by.

This is not about HIP vs. anti-HIP, this is about introverted vs. extroverted.  Brendel subsumes the emotional roller coaster to give a more refined performance, but much deeper than a few of the pianists (er keyboardists I guess) that go for gaudy, exaggerated gestures.  It takes more effort to appreciate his artistry, but in the end is more rewarding.  If you're bothered by his legato phrasing, you should know that most HIPsters are still using legato phrasing.  There is a whole spectrum of performances here, and one doesn't have to bash one to appreciate the other. :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on February 10, 2010, 04:46:04 PM
The Brendel recordings were some of my first experiences with the Mozart PCs.  I loved the music instantly, but gradually Brendel/Marriner was replaced as my recording of choice for every concerto.  I still enjoy Brendel's playing, but not Marriner.  You might try a few of the more recent Brendel/Mackerras recordings.  Also, I regard Schiff's cycle on Decca as my favorite overall set.

I don't like Schiff's playing in the Decca cycle but love the orchestral part, and Brendel's playing is exquisite but not the Marriner.  If we have Brendel/Vegh what a combo that would be! :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Scarpia on February 10, 2010, 04:56:43 PM
I don't like Schiff's playing in the Decca cycle but love the orchestral part, and Brendel's playing is exquisite but not the Marriner.  If we have Brendel/Vegh what a combo that would be! :)

Better than Brendel/Mackerras?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on February 10, 2010, 05:00:33 PM
Better than Brendel/Mackerras?

Wait!  Seriously?  Did not know about that, I must add to my wish list.  They didn't do all of them did they?  But at least several of the great ones?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Scarpia on February 10, 2010, 05:15:30 PM
Wait!  Seriously?  Did not know about that, I must add to my wish list.  They didn't do all of them did they?  But at least several of the great ones?

27, 25, 24, 22, 20, and some earlier ones.  Some were issued in SACD as well as CD.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Franco on February 10, 2010, 05:17:50 PM
I'm surprised we are even allowed to discuss Brendel (and Uchida) in the HIP Mozart thread. Are we not going to be taken to task for impurifying this hollowed ground?  ;D

Hollowed ground?  Like a grave? 

Or did you mean hallowed ground?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on February 11, 2010, 01:46:46 AM
This is not about HIP vs. anti-HIP, this is about introverted vs. extroverted.
Oh no, it's certainly at least partly about HIP v non-HIP ('non', rather than 'anti') - but the post as a whole (rather than just the bit you quote) is also about discovering for myself (rather than merely accepting an opinion stated by others) that mere HIPness isn't enough in itself. I was discovering things in the Schmidt/Masur performance that were more delightful and expressive, in some ways, than the Sofronitzki. However, that  'big, cloudy, imprecise' orchestral Mozart sound of Marriner's, for instance (a sound that I've disliked for decades without knowing why until recently) is partly a symptom of non-HIPness, and partly a lack of the decisiveness that Masur offers. I wouldn't know how to discuss these things in isolation, actually.

Quote
There is a whole spectrum of performances here, and one doesn't have to bash one to appreciate the other. :)
Indeed. That spectrum is what I set out trying to explore - but I'm only at the very beginning of the process. I wasn't really bashing Brendel, you know, any more than I was bashing Elvis. I was trying to describe my actual experience of listening to those three performances as clearly as I could, and that's just how it came out. I'm already familiar with the deeply expressive playing of Brendel in some of Beethoven's sonatas, and that knowledge exaggerated the shock I felt when I found that it didn't seem to work very well with this particular Mozart concerto. What I'm reporting here is a stage in a process, not a final result.

I should explain - though I hope it was already clear - that my purpose was not to divert the discussion away from HIP Mozart; rather, it was to explore my HIP Sofronitzki recordings in the context of more traditional approaches, the better to understand (hopefully, in the long run) what's going on. I don't see how else to do that, except by comparing them with non-HIP performances and trying to sort out the significance of the differences.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DarkAngel on February 11, 2010, 05:21:48 AM
I'd like to make a preliminary report on my Great Mozart Piano Concerto Experiment.

The story so far: First, after lengthy anguishing, I bought the horrendously expensive box of HIP concertos with Viviana Sofronitzki on fortepiano, conducted by Tadeusz Karolak:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w183/front/0/4012476841519.jpg)

I listened to quite a lot of the discs - some several times over, and found myself more and more charmed, enchanted, excited, enticed, beguiled by them. This was a huge breakthrough - I've never been fond of the piano, never much enjoyed piano concertos, never cared tuppence for Mozart's in particular; yet here I was, unexpectedly listening over and over and wanting to listen to nothing else. And I started to ask - does the HIP performance really make all this difference? The difference between light and dark? Between Yes and No? I wanted a non-HIP set for comparison, to see how much change had been going on in me, rather than in the type of performance I was listening to.

jpc were selling the Annerose Schmidt/Kurt Masur box for a merely nominal sum, so I sent for one. Shortly afterwards Navneeth pointed out that they were selling the Brendel/Marriner set for not much more, so, fearing the Schmidt/Masur might be rather mediocre, I took the plunge and sent for that as well. They've both arrived:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w183/front/0/0782124024628.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/w183/front/0/0028948025992.jpg)

I've made a first tentative start to the experiment by listening to the 25th (K503), first by Sofronizki, second by Schmidt, third by Brendel. The result - I'm really quite stunned.

I think the Sofronitzki is terrific - vital, rippling playing from the fortepiano, sharp orchestral playing, lovely crunchy HIP sounds - just the thing that's been wowing me for the last couple of weeks.  A winner all the way. So when I put the Schmidt/Masur into the player I expected to be crushingly disappointed.

Well, it sure isn't HIP. And of course the piano sound is so much rounder and smoother and more mellow than the fortepiano. But I was shocked by how much I was being swept along by the music. The orchestral playing is incisive, decisive, urgent, and convincing. Schmidt plays with conviction and vitality. I reached the end amazed and delighted that I seemed to have found a completely different way of enjoying the piano concertos. So then I put on the Brendel and expected to be sent into spasms of ecstasy.

Elgarian
take solace in knowing that you purchased my favorite fortepiano complete set of Mozart piano concertos, so you actually saved money by not having to run the gauntlet of Bilson, Immerseel etc A quick check of UK vendors shows no stock, and Amazon USA now wants $112......
 
I want to know how you found out about Annerose Schmidt set, I sampled that extensively and fully agree it sounds like a great set, completely unknown to me till your post here. Actually recorded in mid 1970's and Masur has never sounded this fresh and alive in anything else I have heard, I am sold on this delightful set and order is placed..........
 
I agree with you in general on Brendel although do not have any of the newer Brendel/MacKerras concertos which many like better......
 
Perhaps you could also put a copy of that great post over in the Mozart piano concerto thread which had some mentions already of Sofronitzski set...........spread the word brother
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3279.150.html (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3279.150.html)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on February 11, 2010, 06:58:27 AM

Elgarian
take solace in knowing that you purchased my favorite fortepiano complete set of Mozart piano concertos, so you actually saved money by not having to run the gauntlet of Bilson, Immerseel etc A quick check of UK vendors shows no stock, and Amazon USA now wants $112......
Well, DA - your persistent praise of the set was a big factor in persuading me to take the plunge. Thank you for that.
 
Quote
I want to know how you found out about Annerose Schmidt set, I sampled that extensively and fully agree it sounds like a great set, completely unknown to me till your post here. Actually recorded in mid 1970's and Masur has never sounded this fresh and alive in anything else I have heard, I am sold on this delightful set and order is placed..........
I stumbled upon it by chance while browsing through jpc's special offers, looking for a cheap box set of non-HIP Mozart concertos. When I saw the price (still available for 14.99 euros last time I looked), and after I listened to some of the samples, I, like you, thought 'this is promising'. Of course you can only tell so much from short samples, but I'm becoming more and more pleased with it. I think you'll enjoy it quite as much as I am doing.
 
Quote
Perhaps you could also put a copy of that great post over in the Mozart piano concerto thread which had some mentions already of Sofronitzski set...........spread the word brother
I'll do that right now.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 12, 2010, 08:34:06 AM
This 10-CD box is one of the best included in the Brilliant Mozart Edition: great performers (Bart van Oort, Pieter-Jan Belder, Bernard Foccroulle, Luc Devos, etc.), fine historically informed performances and a great variety of instruments.

Here a short, but illustrative review on MUSICWEB INTERNATIONAL (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/Jun02/mozart13.htm). 

IMO, the list of instruments should be carefully checked out. 

Some SAMPLES HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Keyboard-Works-Box-Set/dp/B000067DP1).
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on February 12, 2010, 10:52:33 AM
I'm surprised we are even allowed to discuss Brendel (and Uchida) in the HIP Mozart thread. Are we not going to be taken to task for impurifying this hoallowed ground?  ;D

Technically, I think we can mention any non-HIP performer, as long as we include a condescending remark that they are decidedly not HIP.


Phhhhh, guys, guys, what is your problem?  :P
Taking offence of threads that are focused on specific interests? ::) "segregation"?  :o

Yes, I for one do enjoy performances on period instruments and like to discuss their in and outs on a thread focused on that - is there something wrong with that? I also like Furtwängler and enjoy the thread that is on him as well - something wrong with that as well? ::)

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Franco on February 12, 2010, 11:00:58 AM
For myself, I don't like the segregating of threads according to performance style, and would enjoy having everyone posting about Mozart or Beethoven works in threads according to the works, e.g. Beethoven Symphonies - as opposed to Beethoven Symphonies on Period Instruments and another one on Beethoven Symphonies on Record.

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on February 12, 2010, 11:14:27 AM
For myself, I don't like the segregating of threads according to performance style, and would enjoy having everyone posting about Mozart or Beethoven works in threads according to the works, e.g. Beethoven Symphonies - as opposed to Beethoven Symphonies on Period Instruments and another one on Beethoven Symphonies on Record.

That last one was a recent off-shoot. But, in general, would you really like to read, say, discussions on Schnabel's first recordings of some Bach and a recent release on Bach's clavichord words in counterpoint? Although the "camp" mentality is probably not necessary, it would be helpful if the discussions on period and modern instruments (recordings) existed within their own threads, IMO.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on February 12, 2010, 11:17:03 AM
For myself, I don't like the segregating of threads according to performance style, and would enjoy having everyone posting about Mozart or Beethoven works in threads according to the works, e.g. Beethoven Symphonies - as opposed to Beethoven Symphonies on Period Instruments and another one on Beethoven Symphonies on Record.

First of all, you can post anything you like on the general thread, as long as it is on Beethoven Symphonies - even HIP. I hope you don't mind what others do.

Secondly, if someone starts a thread on a specific topic, the thread is on that specific topic. Seems obvious to me.

Thirdly, with that recipe you could object to (m)any distiction(s) regarding topic.
Why are there two seperate threads on Bach's Goldberg Variations? One on piano recordings, and another on harpsichord recordings?
Why are there various threads on Baroque music, why not only one?
Why is there a thread dedicated to each Beethoven symphony? Why not only one?

Because some like to focus their dicussion on certain topics, are even aspects of a subject, that's why. ::)
I hope you and others don't mind and are able to respect that. :-* Because I see very little respect at the moment.

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Franco on February 12, 2010, 11:20:26 AM
That last one was a recent off-shoot. But, in general, would you really like to read, say, discussions on Schnabel's first recordings of some Bach and a recent release on Bach's clavichord words in counterpoint? Although the "camp" mentality is probably not necessary, it would be helpful if the discussions on period and modern instruments (recordings) existed within their own threads, IMO.

To answer your question, yes, I would prefer one thread and read about PI as well as modern performances since I like hearing about recordings of note no matter what the performance style is used.   
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Franco on February 12, 2010, 11:23:28 AM
First of all, you can post anything you like on the general thread, as long as it is on Beethoven Symphonies - even HIP. I hope you don't mind what others do.

Secondly, if someone starts a thread on a specific topic, the thread is on that specific topic. Seems obvious to me.

Thirdly, with that recipe you could object to (m)any distiction(s) regarding topic.
Why are there two seperate threads on Bach's Goldberg Variations? One on piano recordings, and another on harpsichord recordings?
Why are there various threads on Baroque music, why not only one?
Why is there a thread dedicated to each Beethoven symphony? Why not only one?

Because some like to focus their dicussion on certain topics, are even aspects of a subject, that's why. ::)
I hope you and others don't mind and are able to respect that. :-* Because I see very little respect at the moment.

Q

I don't have a problem with any of this (although until recently there was no general thread on Beethoven symphonies) - I was simply stating my preference: one thread on basic works that are regularly recorded as complete sets, all comers welcome.

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on February 12, 2010, 11:28:18 AM
To answer your question, yes, I would prefer one thread and read about PI as well as modern performances since I like hearing about recordings of note no matter what the performance style is used.   

I was thinking of more practical matters like the ease of following a discussion -- which I would find rather difficult if two or three separate (and long) strands kept on simultaneously -- as opposed to preferences over playing practices. :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on February 12, 2010, 11:39:18 AM
I don't have a problem with any of this (although until recently there was no general thread on Beethoven symphonies) - I was simply stating my preference: one thread on basic works that are regularly recorded as complete sets, all comers welcome.

Noted. But as we've said before: if you need a thread that isn't there - start one, instead of party-pooping somewhere else. 8)

BTW, just for the record: that last remark about lack of respect was not directed to you.

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on February 12, 2010, 01:23:15 PM

(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=232.0;attach=23834;image)
This 10-CD box is one of the best included in the Brilliant Mozart Edition: great performers (Bart van Oort, Pieter-Jan Belder, Bernard Foccroulle, Luc Devos, etc.), fine historically informed performances and a great variety of instruments.

Here a short, but illustrative review on MUSICWEB INTERNATIONAL (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/Jun02/mozart13.htm). 


Ye gods - I've just been listening to the samples and I can't believe the price of this box ..... Many, many thanks for bringing it up for notice.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 13, 2010, 09:30:13 AM
Ye gods - I've just been listening to the samples and I can't believe the price of this box ..... Many, many thanks for bringing it up for notice.

You’re welcome, Elgarian.

I have enjoyed reading your posts –especially the first one- on your new and joyful approach towards Mozart.

BTW, although you have surely noticed this fact, it should be noticed that the excellent Brilliant set doesn’t include the piano sonatas. 

 :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on February 13, 2010, 09:50:15 AM
Excellent, Antoine! :)
This one has flown below my radar, that is focuses on the keyboard works outside of the solo sonatas makes it a simply perfect addition/acquisition! :)

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on February 13, 2010, 10:13:19 AM
Just throwing this into the ring. I remember one or two HIPsters on this thread approve of it, and it's on my wish-list as a less-expensive alternative to the Brautigam set.

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/5028421930251.jpg)

Mozart: Complete Keyboard Works (one and two performers) - 14 CDs
Bart van Oort
Brilliant Classics
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2010, 10:16:34 AM
Just throwing this into the ring. I remember one or two HIPsters on this thread approve of it, and it's on my wish-list as a less-expensive alternative to the Brautigam set.

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/5028421930251.jpg)

Mozart: Complete Keyboard Works (one and two performers) - 14 CDs
Bart van Oort
Brilliant Classics

That's the one I'd like to have, the 14 disk version. It has a couple of things on there of which there are no other recordings, by anyone. When I go back to my Mozart collection for updating purposes, I will be picking that one up. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Cappella Coloniensis / A. Spering / VokalEnsemble Köln - Hob 24a 02 Cantata in G  "Destatevi, o miei fidi"  pt 6 - Coro "L'augusto prence"
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on February 13, 2010, 10:23:21 AM
BTW, although you have surely noticed this fact, it should be noticed that the excellent Brilliant set doesn’t include the piano sonatas. 
Oh yes, that's what made me sit up and take notice (for the same reasons as Que). I already have the Brautigam box; and Amazon have just informed me that your Brilliant Bargain Box is now on its way to join it. Hoorah!
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on March 23, 2010, 07:15:12 AM
Is there a version of K. 525 that includes a part for the harpsichord? I remember, about  two or three years ago, I listened to this Mozart piece on the radio (I'm starting to doubt myself because I just noticed that EKN's instrumentation does not call for a harpsichord), and the sounds were such a delight to listen to compared the chamber(-sized) orchestral renditions that I was used to: sparse strings, and a harpsichord, to boot, I remember thinking to myself that that was how Mozart ought be performed. That was in the recesses of my mind until a few days ago when I wanted to listen to (something like) that again. I can count about two (maybe three) HIP versions: the Manze that has been recommended several times in this thread, and then their is Savall's and perhaps an OOP l'Archibudelli, somewhere; but the samples don't seem to hint at the use of a harpsichord continuo. So can anyone recommend me a version (assuming there's one)? Or, if not, suggest a famous Mozart serenade that might have a place for the H. Suggestions, as always, will be appreciated. :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 23, 2010, 07:35:37 AM
Is there a version of K. 525 that includes a part for the harpsichord? I remember, about  two or three years ago, I listened to this Mozart piece on the radio (I'm starting to doubt myself because I just noticed that EKN's instrumentation does not call for a harpsichord), and the sounds were such a delight to listen to compared the chamber(-sized) orchestral renditions that I was used to: sparse strings, and a harpsichord, to boot. I remember thinking to myself that that was how Mozart ought be performed. That was in the recesses of my mind until a few days ago when I wanted to listen to (something like) that again. I can count about two (maybe three) HIP versions: the Manze that has been recommended several times in this thread, and then their is Savall's and perhaps an OOP l'Archibudelli, somewhere; but the samples don't seem to hint at the use of a harpsichord continuo. So can anyone recommend me a version (assuming there's one)? Or, if not, suggest a famous Mozart serenade that might have a place for the H. Suggestions, as always, will be appreciated. :)

I have a version by (Anthony? Damn, can't remember >:( ) Newman and the Brandenburg Consort (? double damn) that is a very small group in which he plays harpsichord continuo. It's on Newport Classics. I like it a bunch, and I will ad that it also has K 136-138 for the same group. Any or all of those works can be played anywhere from 1 to 4 to a part, since Mozart didn't specify. Continuo was probably a given and would be used whether written in or not. So anything more than an actual string quintet (with Bass) or quartet (for the earlier works) can be made to fit. As you discovered, making to fit and sounding good are not necessarily the same thing. :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on March 23, 2010, 08:07:45 AM
I have a version by (Anthony? Damn, can't remember >:( ) Newman and the Brandenburg Consort (? double damn) that is a very small group in which he plays harpsichord continuo. It's on Newport Classics. I like it a bunch, and I will ad that it also has K 136-138 for the same group. Any or all of those works can be played anywhere from 1 to 4 to a part, since Mozart didn't specify. Continuo was probably a given and would be used whether written in or not. So anything more than an actual string quintet (with Bass) or quartet (for the earlier works) can be made to fit. As you discovered, making to fit and sounding good are not necessarily the same thing. :)

8)

Thanks, Gurn. Alas, the recording is nowhere to be found (among Amazon.com, Presto, MDT and BRO, anyway). But there is one slightly pricey, OOP sony two-fer which also contains a couple of the symphonies.

And as regards the instrumentation, it did sound more or less like a string quintet, with continuo -- just about ideal for a Classical string serenade or divertimento, IMO. :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 23, 2010, 08:14:18 AM
Thanks, Gurn. Alas, the recording is nowhere to be found (among Amazon.com, Presto, MDT and BRO, anyway). But there is one slightly pricey, OOP sony two-fer which also contains a couple of the symphonies.

And as regards the instrumentation, it did sound more or less like a string quintet, with continuo -- just about ideal for a Classical string serenade or divertimento, IMO. :)

You wouldn't know by looking at the listing, but this is it:

http://www.amazon.com/Music-String-Orchestra-Mozart/dp/B00005NZL7/ref=sr_1_26?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1269360625&sr=8-26

Not that I recommend it at that price. I got it 7-8 years ago for less than $10, didn't realize what a treasure it was today... ::) 

I like the small ensembles best. Mozart really left the door open by not specifying "X on a part", I've even heard K525 with a full orchestra! :o :o

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on March 23, 2010, 08:28:42 AM
You wouldn't know by looking at the listing, but this is it:

http://www.amazon.com/Music-String-Orchestra-Mozart/dp/B00005NZL7/ref=sr_1_26?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1269360625&sr=8-26

Not that I recommend it at that price. I got it 7-8 years ago for less than $10, didn't realize what a treasure it was today... ::) 

Ah. Lucky you. ;)

Quote
Mozart really left the door open by not specifying "X on a part", I've even heard K525 with a full orchestra! :o :o
8)

That's the con of not specifying the parts! Rapidly going through the selections at the local store, I take a moment to shudder when I see the Karajan/BPO disc. (Happens with the Brandenburgs as well.)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Scarpia on March 23, 2010, 08:53:18 AM
That's the con of not specifying the parts! Rapidly going through the selections at the local store, I take a moment to shudder when I see the Karajan/BPO disc. (Happens with the Brandenburgs as well.)

There is nothing to fear in Karajan's Brandenburgs.  I have no affection for the late set, which has really bad sound, but the old 60's set has some wonderful buttery string sound in some of the slow movements which can be a historically inappropriate delight.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on March 23, 2010, 09:23:08 AM
There is nothing to fear in Karajan's Brandenburgs.  I have no affection for the late set, which has really bad sound, but the old 60's set has some wonderful buttery string sound in some of the slow movements which can be a historically inappropriate delight.

Okay, as a coating to a documentary, perhaps. ;) I grew up listening to very un-HIP versions, but more recently I've come to love the crispness and the lightness of the period instrument performances. Hence too much fat is a no-no. :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Scarpia on March 23, 2010, 09:33:15 AM
Okay, as a coating to a documentary, perhaps. ;) I grew up listening to very un-HIP versions, but more recently I've come to love the crispness and the lightness of the period instrument performances. Hence too much fat is a no-no. :)

Shame you can't appreciate one without rejecting the other.   :(
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on March 23, 2010, 09:43:50 AM
Shame you can't appreciate one without rejecting the other.   :(

Well, it's not utter and complete rejection. I most likely won't spend money on buying the CDs, but if it's part of, say, a live concert, then I'm all for it. :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on March 24, 2010, 05:52:14 PM
Hmmm...  Should I...?  Yes, I should - unleash Minkowski!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYSWYhhsyy4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYSWYhhsyy4)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: George on March 24, 2010, 06:05:17 PM
Hmmm...  Should I...?  Yes, I should - unleash Minkowski!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYSWYhhsyy4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYSWYhhsyy4)

Nice!
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Coopmv on March 24, 2010, 06:10:39 PM
There is nothing to fear in Karajan's Brandenburgs.  I have no affection for the late set, which has really bad sound, but the old 60's set has some wonderful buttery string sound in some of the slow movements which can be a historically inappropriate delight.

I saw the YouTube of a younger Karajan, perhaps from the 1960's performing some Bach harpsichord concertos in a small chamber group setting.  It was quite enjoyable and Karajan was actually a decent harpsichordist.  Unfortunately, I did not bookmark that YouTube page and now have a hard time locating it ...
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidRoss on March 24, 2010, 07:29:31 PM
Hmmm...  Should I...?  Yes, I should - unleash Minkowski!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYSWYhhsyy4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYSWYhhsyy4)
Love that album, one of the best purchases of the past few years and the best recording of these symphonies I know.  We want more!  More!
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on March 25, 2010, 03:48:41 AM
Hmmm...  Should I...?  Yes, I should - unleash Minkowski!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYSWYhhsyy4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYSWYhhsyy4)

This is new to me ... wow! How exhilarating. Thanks Sorin.
(Just placed my order!)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DarkAngel on March 25, 2010, 04:20:20 AM
(https://secure.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/HMC901959.jpg)
 
This is in my pre-order basket, 3/29/10 release date coming up fast..........it will be mine!
Follow-up to the thrilling Jacobs March 2007 release below
 
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41EBJNRWJEL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DarkAngel on March 25, 2010, 04:27:28 AM
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/CKD350.jpg)
 
MDT is having sale on Linn Records label this month so I just ordered newest hybrid MacKerras set, this will join the excellent previous release (one of the very best 38-41 ever made) by same team below:
 
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/CKD308.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidRoss on March 25, 2010, 08:39:43 AM
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/CKD350.jpg)(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/CKD308.jpg)
 
MDT is having sale on Linn Records label this month so I just ordered newest hybrid MacKerras set, this will join the excellent previous release (one of the very best 38-41 ever made)
Tempting, especially at the sale price.  I already have MacKerras's previous cycle--are these SCO discs significantly better/different?  How do these HIPer but still modern instrument performances compare with the better period instrument ones, like Jacobs or Minkowski?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Scarpia on March 25, 2010, 11:23:51 AM
Tempting, especially at the sale price.  I already have MacKerras's previous cycle--are these SCO discs significantly better/different?  How do these HIPer but still modern instrument performances compare with the better period instrument ones, like Jacobs or Minkowski?

I have both, have listened to the Telarc cycle extensively and only to parts of the new one.  Compared to the cycle on Telarc, I'd say the new Mackerras set lets the brass play more exuberantly and is more extroverted in general.  I prefer the new Mackerras to the old.  Probably it is similar in spirit to the Minkowski on DG, and the Rene Jacobs on HM, which I liked a bit more than Minkowski.

But for me the greatest ever to come down the pike is the Harnoncourt, Concertgebouw (not the Harnoncourt Chamber Orchestra of Europe).  I vividly remember first hearing them and being stunned to hear horns and trumpets barking and timpani whacking in Mozart.  I seem to recall notes written for the recordings by Harnoncourt himself in which he expressed the opinion that Mozart was a brilliant orchestrator who loved the sound of the orchestra, and who was poorly served by the polite style of performance of his music.  It sometimes irks me to see Minkowski's admittedly excellent recordings described as revolutionary, when Harnoncourt was doing the same back in the 80's.  (Well, I'm sure it is revolutionary to the producers at DG, who considered it obligatory to record Karajan's sissified Mozart.)

At this point it is not to expensive to hear Harnoncourt's recordings.  For 25 pounds you can get 8 cds that go back to Symphony No 17

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/2564623342.jpg)

Or for 12 pounds, a smaller set of 4 cds, which unfortunately omits #33 and 34, which are wonderful little works.
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/5046682882.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on March 25, 2010, 11:30:38 AM
Ooh, I love timpani-whacking in Mozart!
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Marc on March 25, 2010, 01:01:48 PM
Ooh, I love timpani-whacking in Mozart!

Oh yeah!
AND the barking brass!

Not only in Mozart, btw. :D

Even if it's not entirely HIP-proven .... I couldn't care less. (Pfui mich!)
It just excites me.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Scarpia on March 25, 2010, 03:29:37 PM
This was the first one I got from the series, and it was da bomb.

(http://i.ebayimg.com/20/!BbVz,WQ!mk~$(KGrHqMH-CkEqupr2wZoBKvmB5F5V!~~_35.JPG)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 25, 2010, 04:23:32 PM
(https://secure.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/HMC901959.jpg)
 
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41EBJNRWJEL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I think that Jacobs on the cover is a totally unnecessary torture for his fans...
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: George on March 25, 2010, 04:24:18 PM
I think that Jacobs on the cover is a totally unnecessary torture for his fans...

I agree.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on March 25, 2010, 04:47:45 PM
This is new to me ... wow! How exhilarating. Thanks Sorin.
(Just placed my order!)
You're welcome.  Be forewarned, however, that he is about as slow in the first movement as he is fast in the final...  :-\  Great elsewhere, though.  For the first movement I think Immerseel's is tops and I know you already have that one. :)


This is in my pre-order basket, 3/29/10 release date coming up fast..........it will be mine!
Follow-up to the thrilling Jacobs March 2007 release below

Whew... I'm steering clear of that one. The only adjective I'd use to describe the first is "distorted," not "thrilling."  :-\
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidRoss on April 05, 2010, 08:54:16 AM
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/CKD350.jpg)(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/CKD308.jpg)
 
MDT is having sale on Linn Records label this month so I just ordered newest hybrid MacKerras set, this will join the excellent previous release (one of the very best 38-41 ever made)
Tempting, especially at the sale price.  I already have MacKerras's previous cycle--are these SCO discs significantly better/different?  How do these HIPer but still modern instrument performances compare with the better period instrument ones, like Jacobs or Minkowski?
Answering my own query (pasted from "listening now" thread):

Mozart's "Prague" symphony, a bit of comparative listening among Mackerras, Mackerras, & Abbado:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51rg7GXWV1L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/514nPqjxJvL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513thYcrn-L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I'm not as "convinced" by Mackerras's SCO Mozart as the reviewers who've praised it as virtually the greatest Mozart on record.  Yes, it's quite good, with more open and transparent sound than his Telarc Prague set, also with notably higher levels and much punchier winds and brass, but the SCO strings lack the propulsive bite of the PCO, and since there's scarcely a gnat's whisker of difference in Mackerras's approach between the two, for me it's really a toss up as to which is preferable--and the value of the Prague set, especially at the new reduced price, makes it a superb bargain.

Finally, I've only compared the Prague so far among these three.  Abbado has more drive than Mac's PCO, and the clarity of his SCO, and compares favorably in my estimation.

I also compared Mac's G minor #40s with a few others.  Again, not a lot of difference in approach between Mac's efforts, with my preference for the bite of Prague over the better sound of the Scots, and both are pretty good compared to most, but fall far short of Minkowski's exciting and beautiful HIPI recording.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DarkAngel on April 05, 2010, 09:12:01 AM
Answering my own query (pasted from "listening now" thread):

Mozart's "Prague" symphony, a bit of comparative listening among Mackerras, Mackerras, & Abbado:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51rg7GXWV1L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/514nPqjxJvL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513thYcrn-L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I'm not as "convinced" by Mackerras's SCO Mozart as the reviewers who've praised it as virtually the greatest Mozart on record.  Yes, it's quite good, with more open and transparent sound than his Telarc Prague set, also with notably higher levels and much punchier winds and brass, but the SCO strings lack the propulsive bite of the PCO, and since there's scarcely a gnat's whisker of difference in Mackerras's approach between the two, for me it's really a toss up as to which is preferable--and the value of the Prague set, especially at the new reduced price, makes it a superb bargain.

Finally, I've only compared the Prague so far among these three.  Abbado has more drive than Mac's PCO, and the clarity of his SCO, and compares favorably in my estimation.

I also compared Mac's G minor #40s with a few others.  Again, not a lot of difference in approach between Mac's efforts, with my preference for the bite of Prague over the better sound of the Scots, and both are pretty good compared to most, but fall far short of Minkowski's exciting and beautiful HIPI recording.

Abbado fares better than many would think against the newest top versions, don't forget the MacKerras/SCO is a hybrid SACD which is of value to some people......
 
Minkowski I have owned for a long time but never really stopped to consider it a top contender in late Mozart symphonies, perhaps because for now it is a one off with no other CDs to follow to date.....
 
If you seek something similar to Minkowski version Jacobs/HM is the choice, just listened last night before placing my order for the new 39, 40 CD for Harmonia Mundi, very fast clean clarified textures....you can easily hear the sharp tympani whacks for instance, more unique sounding than MacKerras if that is what you seek
 
(https://secure.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/HMC901959.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DarkAngel on April 10, 2010, 11:57:51 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61mbAL0GeqL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
 
This arrived a couple days ago, bit of a mixed bag for me.
 
CD1 sounded very average to me, contains symphonies 29,31,32 just seemed a bit flat and routine, no sparkle here.
CD2 sounds like a new lease on life, much more vibrant and full of life for symphonies 35,36 these are a real winner!
I have no explanation why same team would produce different results for CD1 & CD2, just reporting what I hear
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DarkAngel on April 10, 2010, 12:04:59 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41YEBVTEDPL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/53/3e/25c392c008a08896cf652010.L._AA300_.jpg)
 
Forgotten gems that should be sought out...........
 
I have owned these for a long time and just pulled them out again, why these are now out of print is a mystery to me! These are reall HIP performances with original instruments recorded in late 1980s, they are full of excitement and drama even more than the MacKerras just mentioned above. I think they were 5 of these CDs total with symphonies 29-41, still can get some decent prices used at Amazson sellers......
 
Lets hope someday these will be re-issued in remastered boxset and people wil re-discover them  :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Coopmv on April 10, 2010, 12:12:41 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61mbAL0GeqL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
 
This arrived a couple days ago, bit of a mixed bag for me.
 
CD1 sounded very average to me, contains symphonies 29,31,32 just seemed a bit flat and routine, no sparkle here.
CD2 sounds like a new lease on life, much more vibrant and full of life for symphonies 35,36 these are a real winner!
I have no explanation why same team would produce different results for CD1 & CD2, just reporting what I hear

I am done with Mozart Symphonies.  Between the sets by Hogwood, Pinnock and the Mackerras' set on Telarc, I have more than enough Mozart Symphonies when Mozart is not even one of my favorite composers.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DarkAngel on April 10, 2010, 01:30:52 PM
I am done with Mozart Symphonies.  Between the sets by Hogwood, Pinnock and the Mackerras' set on Telarc, I have more than enough Mozart Symphonies when Mozart is not even one of my favorite composers.

It is too late for me my fate is sealed and financial damage is done........I have huge Mozart collection between various symphonies, concertos, and operas
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Coopmv on April 10, 2010, 01:49:02 PM

It is too late for me my fate is sealed and financial damage is done........I have huge Mozart collection between various symphonies, concertos, and operas

What kind of numbers are we talking about here?  I probably have close to 200 CD's/LP's for this unloved composer.  Perhaps you have twice this number?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 10, 2010, 02:05:04 PM
... this chat about sizes is always a bit crude.  ;D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2010, 02:58:53 PM
... this chat about sizes is always a bit crude.  ;D

Sometimes you read stuff and you just can't freakin' believe your eyes, you know?  :D

8)

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Now playing:
Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood - Hob 01:014 Symphony in A 2nd mvmt - Andante
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on April 10, 2010, 03:01:07 PM
I'm just surprised that Coop doesn't have any reel to reel tapes of Mozart! :D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidRoss on April 10, 2010, 03:03:11 PM
Are y'all suggesting there may be more than a little compensation involved...?  ;)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2010, 03:04:44 PM
I'm just surprised that Coop doesn't have any reel to reel tapes of Mozart! :D

Probably some of those 8" boys... :)

8)

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Now playing:
Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood - Hob 01 014 Symphony in A 4th mvmt - Finale: Allegro
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2010, 03:06:02 PM
Are y'all suggesting there may be more than a little compensation involved...?  ;)

Oh, my!   :o

8)

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Now playing: Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood - Hob 01 014 Symphony in A 4th mvmt - Finale: Allegro
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Coopmv on April 10, 2010, 03:09:12 PM
I'm just surprised that Coop doesn't have any reel to reel tapes of Mozart! :D

I have 3 reels of Barclay-Crocker tape on the Hogwood Mozart Symphonies ...
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: George on April 10, 2010, 03:11:28 PM
Are y'all suggesting there may be more than a little compensation involved...?  ;)

I get a check every month for listening to Mozart.  ;D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Coopmv on April 10, 2010, 03:12:32 PM
I get a check every month for listening to Mozart.  ;D

George, You've got the best job ...    ;D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2010, 03:14:06 PM
I get a check every month for listening to Mozart.  ;D

No one needs to pay ME for it... although I am not entirely sure if you and David are using the same definition of compensation here. Hey, I could be wrong, but....  ;)

8)

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Now playing:
Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood - Hob 01 017 Symphony in F 1st mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: George on April 10, 2010, 03:14:38 PM
George, You've got the best job ...    ;D

It's like getting paid to eat ice cream.  ;D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: George on April 10, 2010, 03:17:27 PM
No one needs to pay ME for it... although I am not entirely sure if you and David are using the same definition of compensation here. Hey, I could be wrong, but....  ;)

Indeed. I figured it would be fun to spin it in another direction.

And no, no one need pay me a dime to listen to Mozart. But please don't tell the checkwriters that, OK?  8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2010, 03:19:36 PM
Indeed. I figured it would be fun to spin it in another direction.

And no, no one need pay me a dime to listen to Mozart. But please don't tell the checkwriters that, OK?  8)

Ah, you've restored my faith...  0:)

8)

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Now playing:
Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood - Hob 01 017 Symphony in F 2nd mvmt - Andante ma non troppo
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 10, 2010, 03:21:14 PM
I am done with Mozart Symphonies.  Between the sets by Hogwood, Pinnock and the Mackerras' set on Telarc, I have more than enough Mozart Symphonies when Mozart is not even one of my favorite composers.

Stuart - I have the same sets above, but Wolfie is one of my favorite composers, so not UNHAPPY?  Just ordered the second volume of the 'new' Mackerras recording - loved the first one; sorry to hear that DA seemed disappointed, the reviews have been quite good - well, ordered and on its way to me!  Dave  :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Coopmv on April 10, 2010, 03:31:26 PM
Stuart - I have the same sets above, but Wolfie is one of my favorite composers, so not UNHAPPY?  Just ordered the second volume of the 'new' Mackerras recording - loved the first one; sorry to hear that DA seemed disappointed, the reviews have been quite good - well, ordered and on its way to me!  Dave  :)

I have always felt that some of Mozart works are more style than substance but this may be just me. 
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on April 10, 2010, 11:40:34 PM
I have always felt that some of Mozart works are more style than substance but this may be just me.
I'm almost alarmed at the sheer quantity of Mozart CDs I've bought during the last year or two, as I passed from a state similar to the one you express here, Coop, to one in which I find myself at least potentially interested in almost anything he ever composed. It's more to do with companionship than actual musical content, I think - the sort of thing I find with a favourite author, where reading is a way of spending valuable time in his (or her) company, over and above the actual content of what's being written.

The HIP breakthrough has made a huge difference to this 'imagined presence' aspect of my Mozart listening. A good HIP performance creates that sense of immediate presence more effectively, so it's like sitting in a pub with Wolfie in front of a good fire with a couple of pints of beer, instead of talking to him on the telephone.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidRoss on April 11, 2010, 06:32:20 AM
Have you plunged into Jacobs's Da Ponte operas yet, Alan? 
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DarkAngel on April 11, 2010, 07:06:52 AM
Stuart - I have the same sets above, but Wolfie is one of my favorite composers, so not UNHAPPY?  Just ordered the second volume of the 'new' Mackerras recording - loved the first one; sorry to hear that DA seemed disappointed, the reviews have been quite good - well, ordered and on its way to me!  Dave  :)

50% disappointed: CD1 - average,  CD2 - very good to excellent
 
I think overall MacKerras earlier Linn Records hybrid set of 38-41 was better
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidRoss on April 11, 2010, 07:10:24 AM
50% disappointed: CD1 - average,  CD2 - very good to excellent
 
I think overall MacKerras earlier Linn Records hybrid set of 38-41 was better
\
Thanks for your assessment.  Based on my hearing of the Linn 38-41 I've already decided that there's probably not enough difference or improvement compared with his Telarc set to be worth getting. 
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DarkAngel on April 11, 2010, 07:16:46 AM
\
Thanks for your assessment.  Based on my hearing of the Linn 38-41 I've already decided that there's probably not enough difference or improvement compared with his Telarc set to be worth getting.

I listened to those again myself a couple days ago and I agree with your overall take, not big difference in style between older MacKerras/Telarc and new Mackerras/Linn Records.......pretty similar, more than I had remembered.
 
For more pronounced difference check newest Jacobs/HM........
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on April 11, 2010, 12:00:26 PM
Have you plunged into Jacobs's Da Ponte operas yet, Alan?
Oh yes, oh yes. My latter-day Mozartian revelations came initially through the operas, and after listening to Jacobs last summer there was no chance of ever going back, really (especially when PrestoClassical were offering all the Jacobs sets at 30% off).

I was listening to Immerseel's Jupiter in the garden this afternoon - headphones, warm sunshine, comfy chair, feet up, large mug of tea in my favourite Leach-style studio pottery mug, and the companionship of Wolfie. Questions of whether this is a contender for the definitive Jupiter, or whether it matches up to Minkowski, seemed to be of no significance; there and then, in the sunshine, it was the best possible Jupiter to be listening to, and I've never before been so entranced by the finale, with those little fluttering cheerful and cheeky patterns of notes repeatedly interrupting the great theme that's trying so hard, over and over again, to get in the last word. An experience like this goes well beyond the merely aesthetic, and one of the more prominent of the moral/spiritual responses it evokes (among others, like the sense of companionship, of wonder, and of affection) is sheer gratitude: gratitude to Wolfie; to Jos; to Anima Eterna; and to the universe at large for getting this bit right, at least.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidRoss on April 11, 2010, 03:42:59 PM
I was listening to Immerseel's Jupiter in the garden this afternoon - headphones, warm sunshine, comfy chair, feet up, large mug of tea in my favourite Leach-style studio pottery mug, and the companionship of Wolfie. Questions of whether this is a contender for the definitive Jupiter, or whether it matches up to Minkowski, seemed to be of no significance; there and then, in the sunshine, it was the best possible Jupiter to be listening to, and I've never before been so entranced by the finale, with those little fluttering cheerful and cheeky patterns of notes repeatedly interrupting the great theme that's trying so hard, over and over again, to get in the last word. An experience like this goes well beyond the merely aesthetic, and one of the more prominent of the moral/spiritual responses it evokes (among others, like the sense of companionship, of wonder, and of affection) is sheer gratitude: gratitude to Wolfie; to Jos; to Anima Eterna; and to the universe at large for getting this bit right, at least.

Love this post, Alan--it made me smile from my heart to my toes!
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DarkAngel on April 17, 2010, 11:32:58 AM
(https://secure.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/HMC901959.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41EBJNRWJEL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Extremely impressed with the new Jacobs 39,40 CD.......
One of the rare performances that makes you think you are hearing these standards fresh again for the 1st time, the music lines are so clarified and transparent you hear all kinds of little details obscured by other versions. Bold, exciting outer movements, charming overall with excellent modern sound from Harmonia Mundi. Comes in 3 panel digipak (2 panel digipak for 38,41 CD), similar in stye to Immerseel recent CD but even better overall
 
I have 15+ versions of Mozart 38-41 and it may seem impossible choose the best from so many great ones, but I will do it anyway and say Jacobs/HM are now my reference performances
 
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/415JDQ2Z1BL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on April 17, 2010, 12:41:15 PM

Extremely impressed with the new Jacobs 39,40 CD.......
One of the rare performances that makes you think you are hearing these standards fresh again for the 1st time, the music lines are so clarified and transparent you hear all kinds of little details obscured by other versions. Bold, exciting outer movements, charming overall with excellent modern sound from Harmonia Mundi. Comes in 3 panel digipak (2 panel digipak for 38,41 CD), similar in stye to Immerseel recent CD but even better overall
 
I have 15+ versions of Mozart 38-41 and it may seem impossible choose the best from so many great ones, but I will do it anyway and say Jacobs/HM are now my reference performances
Thanks for this recommendation, DA. I shall almost certainly get these in the not too distant future.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DarkAngel on April 17, 2010, 12:54:59 PM
Thanks for this recommendation, DA. I shall almost certainly get these in the not too distant future.

Unfortunately no extended youtube samples, but JPC has kindly provided us with some short samples to give you an idea of what we have here......the Immerseel has a very fresh lively sound I also enjoy
 
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Wolfgang-Amadeus-Mozart-Symphonien-Nr-39-40/hnum/4497798 (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Wolfgang-Amadeus-Mozart-Symphonien-Nr-39-40/hnum/4497798)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: hornteacher on May 04, 2010, 06:10:00 PM
Couldn't find this in a search so I hope I'm not repeating a topic.  Are there any suggestions on recordings of any Mozart Piano Concerto performed on a Classical Period Fortepiano?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: stingo on May 04, 2010, 07:07:15 PM
Bilson/Gardiner on Archiv? I've a few of the single releases, but haven't picked up the box yet.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on May 04, 2010, 11:33:56 PM
Couldn't find this in a search so I hope I'm not repeating a topic.  Are there any suggestions on recordings of any Mozart Piano Concerto performed on a Classical Period Fortepiano?
There was quite an extensive discussion of some of these in the HIP Mozart thread here, starting at about #228:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,232.msg376200/topicseen.html#msg376200 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,232.msg376200/topicseen.html#msg376200)
The discussion continues sporadically over several pages.

I have these two sets, by Viviana Sofronitzki (left) and Immerseel (right):

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41L8Ie3d4VL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31EITijYmeL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

The Sofronitzki set cost me an arm and a leg, but it's a purchase that I don't regret in the least. The more I listen, the more I love it, and this is the one I turn to, time and again. The recording quality is fabulous, her playing is full of vibrancy and life, and the orchestra supplies everything I hope for from a HIP approach. There's a longish sample available here:
http://www.sofronitsky.com/recordings.html (http://www.sofronitsky.com/recordings.html)

The Immerseel box was a more recent purchase and is much, much more affordable; but much though I admire Immerseel, and would always want to give him the benefit of the doubt, my progress through his box is slow. The simplest way to describe the difference is that by comparison with Sofronitzki he's too polite. I know these things are very personal, and one size never suits all, but I find with Sofronitzki that I can almost imagine a pipeline straight through to Mozart - I can indulge almost in the illusion that he's playing, revelling in those quicksilver shifts in mood that tumble one after another.

The set by Bilson (see post above) has admirers too, but I haven't heard it.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gabriel on May 05, 2010, 01:15:16 AM
The only complete HIP set I have is Bilson/Gardiner, and I haven't felt any need for purchasing another yet. Perhaps if René Jacobs decided to record them...! ;D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Mandryka on May 05, 2010, 02:23:49 AM
Download the Bezuidenhout/Herreweghe here:

http://ceolnasidhe.blogspot.com/search/label/Philipe%20Herreweghe

If you like it I'll put up a PC 24 he did with Brueggen in Paris last year.

I wasn't enthusiastic about Sofronitsky (fille) -- but I have found some good ones in Bilson and Gardiner -- 22 for example, and 14.

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DarkAngel on May 05, 2010, 03:18:55 AM
There was quite an extensive discussion of some of these in the HIP Mozart thread here, starting at about #228:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,232.msg376200/topicseen.html#msg376200 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,232.msg376200/topicseen.html#msg376200)
The discussion continues sporadically over several pages.

I have these two sets, by Viviana Sofronitzki (left) and Immerseel (right):

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41L8Ie3d4VL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31EITijYmeL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

The Sofronitzki set cost me an arm and a leg, but it's a purchase that I don't regret in the least. The more I listen, the more I love it, and this is the one I turn to, time and again. The recording quality is fabulous, her playing is full of vibrancy and life, and the orchestra supplies everything I hope for from a HIP approach. There's a longish sample available here:
http://www.sofronitsky.com/recordings.html (http://www.sofronitsky.com/recordings.html)

The Immerseel box was a more recent purchase and is much, much more affordable; but much though I admire Immerseel, and would always want to give him the benefit of the doubt, my progress through his box is slow. The simplest way to describe the difference is that by comparison with Sofronitzki he's too polite. I know these things are very personal, and one size never suits all, but I find with Sofronitzki that I can almost imagine a pipeline straight through to Mozart - I can indulge almost in the illusion that he's playing, revelling in those quicksilver shifts in mood that tumble one after another.

The set by Bilson (see post above) has admirers too, but I haven't heard it.

Of the three complete sets I prefer Sofronitzki, over Immerseel and Bilson. Immerseel is too relaxed at keyboard overall for my tastes and Bilson unfortunately has an unbalanced sound mix with the forte piano dwarfed in scale by orchestra.....keyboard sounds soft and distant. Compare this to Sofronitzki and Immerseel who have the balance right with more prominent and detailed keyboard.....personally I never listen to Bilson set because this imbalance is so obvious to me despite great orchestral work by Gardiner
 
For individual concerto CDs Andreas Staier ranks at the very top for me, his two great Teldec Cds can be obtained in a reduced price 5CD boxset:
 
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41D2y6nGlaL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WcKb1aAGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
 
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DarkAngel on May 05, 2010, 03:23:35 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51xbAojc4JL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
 
Brautigam has very nice forte piano performance of early concertos for 2,3 keyboards with Lubimov, a bit pricey......
 
 
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ACDT4P8TL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
 
There are 4-5 Levin/Hogwood/Lyre CDs out there which I prefer over the Bilson/Gardiner overall, they are mostly out of print but can be obtained as Arkiv Music re-issues
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Mandryka on May 05, 2010, 05:51:54 AM
It's interesting that my two favourite pianists in the sonatas -- Lubimov and Newman -- have recorded so few of the concertos (if any!)

Is that right? Or have I missed the recordings?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 05, 2010, 06:32:40 AM
Of the three complete sets I prefer Sofronitzki, over Immerseel and Bilson. Immerseel is too relaxed at keyboard overall for my tastes and Bilson unfortunately has an unbalanced sound mix with the forte piano dwarfed in scale by orchestra.....keyboard sounds soft and distant. Compare this to Sofronitzki and Immerseel who have the balance right with more prominent and detailed keyboard.....personally I never listen to Bilson set because this imbalance is so obvious to me despite great orchestral work by Gardiner

Just goes to prove, one man's poison...

It's the balance in the Gardiner/Bilson that I find far more satisfactory than Sofronitzki. The fortepiano was, and is a puny instrument compared to a modern grand and the Bilson recordings give us a true sound picture, I think. What I hear in the Sofronitzki is a recording engineer boosting the sound artificially, making the instrument sound far, far grander than it actually is. I think it's odd that we claim we want a HIP sound but then use modern techniques to distort it, making the period instrument sound larger. I can understand someone preferring that...but is it HIP?

Agree that Gardiner's accompaniment is first rate--the drama of the D minor is just tremendous. This Mozart cycle contains some of the best recordings he's ever made (and I'm speaking as non-fan of the conductor).

Sarge
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on May 05, 2010, 07:01:20 AM
I did plenty of listening via youtube before I ordered (recently the Immerseel set) and my impression was that (a) Bilson is too muted, (b) Sofronitzki is too loud, (c) Immerseel is just right.  But I think that sonically the differences are not so staggering as it has made out to be here, I would guess that the differences are 5-10 dB (anyone is about 5 off from Immerseel) at most.  Performance wise the only (I didn't listen to any Staier though) one that hit a home run for both soloist and ensemble is Levin/Hogwood which I think all of which are oop.  Keyboardist only Sofronitzki has the most fire, and orchestral only Gardiner would win for surprisingly snappy well controlled performances.  I ordered Immerseel because it was actually available :D (Sofronitzki was not) but also his graceful placing I know will have lasting pleasure, and certainly better playing than Bilson. :)

btw I think that the talk of authenticity and volume seems inappropriate for discussing recordings played back on hifis where the volume is set by taste. :P  I doubt that any of you go to some huge effort to volume match to what it would sound like then, and play with the equalizer to reproduce the kind of room acoustics they had back then.  So what does it really matter if the volume of the keyboard is a bit louder or quieter than it should be outside of personal preference?  Besides for all you know they played in small chamber orchestra sized halls and the fortepiano easily filled the room.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Scarpia on May 05, 2010, 07:03:42 AM
btw I think that the talk of authenticity and volume seems inappropriate for discussing recordings played back on hifis where the volume is set by taste. :P  I doubt that any of you go to some huge effort to volume match to what it would sound like then, and play with the equalizer to reproduce the kind of room acoustics they had back then.  So what does it really matter if the volume of the keyboard is a bit louder or quieter than it should be outside of personal preference?  Besides for all you know they played in small chamber orchestra sized halls and the fortepiano easily filled the room.

This makes no sense to me.  Overall volume may be a matter of preference,  but achieving the correct balance between instruments (or the balance expected by the composer) is one of the main reasons for using historically appropriate instruments. 
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 05, 2010, 07:22:02 AM

btw I think that the talk of authenticity and volume seems inappropriate for discussing recordings played back on hifis where the volume is set by taste. :P  I doubt that any of you go to some huge effort to volume match to what it would sound like then, and play with the equalizer to reproduce the kind of room acoustics they had back then.  So what does it really matter if the volume of the keyboard is a bit louder or quieter than it should be outside of personal preference?  Besides for all you know they played in small chamber orchestra sized halls and the fortepiano easily filled the room.

I wasn't talking abut how loud anything is but how authentic the balance between soloist and orchestra is in the recordings. There is no way Sofronitzki sounds that "large" in real life. I have the same objection to recordings on modern instruments that artificially enlarge the soloist. I prefer a realistic balance.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on May 05, 2010, 07:22:12 AM
This makes no sense to me.  Overall volume may be a matter of preference,  but achieving the correct balance between instruments (or the balance expected by the composer) is one of the main reasons for using historically appropriate instruments.

*cough* equalizer *cough* different room acoustics will reinforce some frequencies while not others, which shift the tonal balance anyway.  I wasn't just talking only about overall volume.  I was saying that when you play it at home you are already mangling the sonic space in such a way that it's not authentic beyond just having the sound of the fortepiano be off by a few dB's (if it is).

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Franco on May 05, 2010, 07:28:16 AM
I just listened to several audio clips from the Bilson/Gardiner set and thought the balance very nice - the fortepiano appears to emerge seamlessly from the orchestral fabric in a nice effect and adds a subtle sparkling quality to the overall texture. 

I have the Immerseel and, although the Amazon clips are clearly not enough to accurately judge, I think I might prefer the Bilson set, and have wishlisted it for possible purchase after I've had a chance to mull further.

I'm also keeping my eye on the Brautigam Mozart PC recordings - I've heard a few things on YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVnk2pVw_FA&feature=related) that sounded absolutely fantastic, with the fortepiano placed in the middle of the orchestra for an exceptional balance.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 05, 2010, 07:28:50 AM
Well, Bilson already has a realistic balance, and yet it seems to annoy some people. There is no way that a circa 1785 Walter fortepiano is going to dominate an orchestra that is as small as realistically possible at 12 people, and likely larger than that too. So without a whole lot of artificial mic'ing (ala Sofronitsky), one has to accept the fact that the piano of 1785 isn't the piano of 1885 or 1985. As it happens, I am very pleased with the Bilson/Gardiner, and I just got the Immerseel (haven't listened to it yet though)  solely because of the constant string of bitching here about perceived issues that I simply can't hear as a problem. :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Scarpia on May 05, 2010, 07:29:03 AM
*cough* equalizer *cough* different room acoustics will reinforce some frequencies while not others, which shift the tonal balance anyway.  I wasn't just talking only about overall volume.  I was saying that when you play it at home you are already mangling the sonic space in such a way that it's not authentic beyond just having the sound of the fortepiano be off by a few dB's (if it is).

Again, don't agree at all. The fortepiano covers the same acoustic bandwidth as the rest of the orchestra, it can't be emphasized using equalization without emphasizing the various sections of the orchestra that overlap in frequency.  In any case, I find that the ears tend to normalize themselves to the overall ambiance of a room so that the effect of overall equalization is less than you would expect. 

I think what I (and maybe Sarge) is getting at is not strictly speaking loudness of he instrument, but recording perspective.  In recordings with spotlighting I often find myself annoyed that the orchestra is recorded with microphones at a distance, and the solo instrument is picked up with a microphone which is very close, which produces an inconsistent sound image.   I find this distracting.  The Bilson recordings are pretty well done, IMO, as are the Levin.  The others I have not heard.

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on May 05, 2010, 07:30:30 AM
I wasn't talking abut how loud anything is but how authentic the balance between soloist and orchestra is in the recordings. There is no way Sofronitzki sounds that "large" in real life. I have the same objection to recordings on modern instruments that artificially enlarge the soloist. I prefer a realistic balance.

Sarge

No I read you right.  That is addressed in my reply to Scarpia that also misread my post.

Realistic balance depends on the concert hall and the size of the orchestra, and also how it sounds in your own home.  I don't think that you can claim that it will always sound like Bilson/Gardiner and that is authentic.  Depending on the environment it could sound like any of those three, including Sofronitzki if you sat in the front row.  I have been in concerts in a small room that really helped a harpsichord project, so why not a fortepiano?  You are just too fast and loose at proclaiming what is authentic.

Not only that but the volume differences are not as big as you make it out to be, nor what DA claims.  Way, way over the top.  We are talking about somewhat louder, somewhat quieter differences.  Would either of you really dismiss a recording on the basis of slightly not what you want?  Because that would be kind of petty.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DarkAngel on May 05, 2010, 07:40:44 AM
Just goes to prove, one man's poison...

It's the balance in the Gardiner/Bilson that I find far more satisfactory than Sofronitzki. The fortepiano was, and is a puny instrument compared to a modern grand and the Bilson recordings give us a true sound picture, I think. What I hear in the Sofronitzki is a recording engineer boosting the sound artificially, making the instrument sound far, far grander than it actually is. I think it's odd that we claim we want a HIP sound but then use modern techniques to distort it, making the period instrument sound larger. I can understand someone preferring that...but is it HIP?

I look at it as a matter of perspective........
The soft distant sound of Bilson may be what audience would hear from middle row of concert hall, but Sofronitzky, Immerseel, Staier etc represent a conductor's perspective being closer to keyboard giving it more prominence and detail......which I prefer :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on May 05, 2010, 07:40:57 AM
Again, don't agree at all. The fortepiano covers the same acoustic bandwidth as the rest of the orchestra, it can't be emphasized using equalization without emphasizing the various sections of the orchestra that overlap in frequency. 

That's a superficial, spherical cow kind of argument.  If they had equal emphasis on each frequency then the instruments would be tonally identical (and sound like white noise). ::)  Nope, wrong.  Having the same range doesn't matter, it's frequency response and how room acoustics affect it.  The same orchestra would sound different in different rooms.  Composers know this, they would actually re-orchestrate their works if it were to played in a larger hall or smaller hall than they originally had in mind.  And it does have an effect on balance and clarity of instruments.  In a large hall the violins and brass would dominate over the forte piano, in a smaller room things would be more balanced.

Quote
In any case, I find that the ears tend to normalize themselves to the overall ambiance of a room so that the effect of overall equalization is less than you would expect. 

What are you saying here that our ears get used to it, so who cares?  Well over time, not in the span of a single concert though.

Quote
I think what I (and maybe Sarge) is getting at is not strictly speaking loudness of he instrument, but recording perspective.  In recordings with spotlighting I often find myself annoyed that the orchestra is recorded with microphones at a distance, and the solo instrument is picked up with a microphone which is very close, which produces an inconsistent sound image.   I find this distracting.  The Bilson recordings are pretty well done, IMO, as are the Levin.  The others I have not heard.

I agree that spotlighting can be distracting, but that is not really the problem at hand, Sarge just painted it that way.  As he said he really exaggerated it the problems with that new cycle. :-\
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on May 05, 2010, 07:44:46 AM

I look at it as a matter of perspective........
The soft distant sound of Bilson may be what audience would hear from middle row of concert hall, but Sofronitzky and Immerseel represent a conductor's perspective being closer to keyboard giving it more prominence and detail......which I prefer :)

You've had much more time in these cycles (though I've heard the whole Bilson/Gardiner a few times over) but my impressions are the same.  Just intimate vs spacious sound stage and not authentic vs wrong kind of thing. :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DarkAngel on May 05, 2010, 09:15:15 AM
It's interesting that my two favourite pianists in the sonatas -- Lubimov and Newman -- have recorded so few of the concertos (if any!)

Is that right? Or have I missed the recordings?

Sad but true.......I have keyboard sonata sets by both but have not seen any keyboard concerto cds  :(
 
(there is the Lubimov/Brautigam collaboration CD pictured earlier here)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 05, 2010, 11:22:01 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ACDT4P8TL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
 
There are 4-5 Levin/Hogwood/Lyre CDs out there which I prefer over the Bilson/Gardiner overall, they are mostly out of print but can be obtained as Arkiv Music re-issues

I have 5 disks for a total of 10 concertos; 9, 11, 12, 13, 17, 18, 19, 20, 22 & 23. Is anyone aware of any more of these that I may have missed? I like 'em too... :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bulldog on May 05, 2010, 11:37:29 AM
I have 5 disks for a total of 10 concertos; 9, 11, 12, 13, 17, 18, 19, 20, 22 & 23. Is anyone aware of any more of these that I may have missed? I like 'em too... :)

8)

1-4 is on one disc, 15 and 26 on another.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Scarpia on May 05, 2010, 11:40:39 AM
1-4 is on one disc, 15 and 26 on another.

Bizarre to cancel a cycle so close to completion!
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DarkAngel on May 05, 2010, 11:44:10 AM
I'm also keeping my eye on the Brautigam Mozart PC recordings - I've heard a few things on YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVnk2pVw_FA&feature=related) that sounded absolutely fantastic, with the fortepiano placed in the middle of the orchestra for an exceptional balance.

I will not hesitate even for a micro second to purchase any Mozart keyboard concerto CDs  by Brautigam...... ;)
 
I like that balance between forte piano and orchestra for Brautigam even if keyboard has sound level boosted from what an audience in larger hall might hear.....a conductors perspective of keyboard, you hear more keyboard detail than in Bilson's CDs
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 05, 2010, 11:50:31 AM
1-4 is on one disc, 15 and 26 on another.

Thanks, Don. Guess I'll have to hunt some more... :-\

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on May 05, 2010, 12:13:21 PM
Without replying to anyone in particular, I'd just like to clarify that my comments about the Sofronitzki recordings are not based on any assumed philosophy of what might or might not be authentic (I don't know enough to say, though I assume that she and her chums know enough to have given it a fair shot according to their own lights); no, my comments are based entirely on the fact that the music seems to be inspired and often on fire. If I can close my eyes and almost believe that Mozart's in the room, then that's authentic enough for me.

As for the highlighting of the fortepiano (which is vividly up close, indeed): as people have commented already, it just sounds as if I've got a privileged front row seat, and that's fine by me!
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Franco on May 05, 2010, 12:32:00 PM
Bizarre to cancel a cycle so close to completion!

Levin has made a bunch of recordings with Kim Kashkashian - which is fine (are they a couple or something?) - I have several of these recordings and they are very good.  But, you're right, I wish he'd have continued with the Mozart PC.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Franco on May 05, 2010, 12:47:28 PM
I just checked Arkiv and they make all of the Levin Mozart PC available for $16.99 a disc (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/albumList.jsp?name_id1=8429&name_role1=1&name_id2=14334&name_role2=2&bcorder=21) - there seems to be an almost complete set:

Mozart: Piano Concerto No 1-4 / Levin, Hogwood, Et Al
Mozart: Piano Concertos K 271 & K 414 / Levin, Hogwood
Mozart: Piano Concertos K413 & K415, Rondo K386 / Levin
Mozart: Piano Concertos No 15 & 26 / Levin, Hogwood
Mozart: Piano Concertos No 17 & 20 / Levin, Hogwood
Mozart: Piano Concertos No 22 & 23 / Levin, Hogwood
Mozart: Piano Concertos No 5, 14, 16 / Levin, Hogwood, Et Al

I've got two of these (bolded), but I've never bought any of the Arkiv CD reissues - are they worthwhile?

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DarkAngel on May 05, 2010, 12:58:11 PM
I just checked Arkiv and they make all of the Levin Mozart PC available for $16.99 a disc (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/albumList.jsp?name_id1=8429&name_role1=1&name_id2=14334&name_role2=2&bcorder=21) - there seems to be an almost complete set:

Mozart: Piano Concerto No 1-4 / Levin, Hogwood, Et Al
Mozart: Piano Concertos K 271 & K 414 / Levin, Hogwood
Mozart: Piano Concertos K413 & K415, Rondo K386 / Levin
Mozart: Piano Concertos No 15 & 26 / Levin, Hogwood
Mozart: Piano Concertos No 17 & 20 / Levin, Hogwood
Mozart: Piano Concertos No 22 & 23 / Levin, Hogwood
Mozart: Piano Concertos No 5, 14, 16 / Levin, Hogwood, Et Al

I've got two of these (bolded), but I've never bought any of the Arkiv CD reissues - are they worthwhile?

Current Arkiv re-issues have all original artwork and full booklet, even CD label is original artwork.
Only difference is disc is CDR and not manufactured CD.
 
Price is high for a copy, but where else can you go...............
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bulldog on May 05, 2010, 01:37:05 PM

Current Arkiv re-issues have all original artwork and full booklet, even CD label is original artwork.
Only difference is disc is CDR and not manufactured CD.
 
Price is high for a copy, but where else can you go...............

I've had CDR's for a few years now.  Not one of them has gone bad.  I can't even make that claim for manufactured CD's.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 05, 2010, 02:19:06 PM
The only complete HIP set I have is Bilson/Gardiner, and I haven't felt any need for purchasing another yet. Perhaps if René Jacobs decided to record them...! ;D

Well, I need to join this thread, so will respond to Gabriel's post - I also own the Bilson-Gardiner box, and I must say that the occasional complaint about the fortepiano being too much in the background is a consideration; I need to 'turn up' my volume to better appreciate these recordings; but seems to be a varied opinion -  :-\

Now I've looked for a good deal on the Sofronitzki box set for a while but w/ no luck - listed at $112 or so on Amazon (but NOT available); just checked Borders - $90 - not bad but my last attempt to get a box from them failed, so unlikely to even give them my business anymore!

Lookin' forward to further posts -  :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on May 05, 2010, 02:33:09 PM
Now I've looked for a good deal on the Sofronitzki box set for a while but w/ no luck - listed at $112 or so on Amazon (but NOT available); just checked Borders - $90 - not bad but my last attempt to get a box from them failed, so unlikely to even give them my business anymore!

That's why I bought the Immerseel box, it's available and was only $50 shipped (plus I liked what I heard on youtube). :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on May 05, 2010, 11:21:35 PM
I've looked for a good deal on the Sofronitzki box set for a while but w/ no luck - listed at $112 or so on Amazon (but NOT available)
jpc are offering the Sofronitzki box for just under 80 euros at present (cheaper then when I bought mine) - see here:

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/lang/en/currency/EUR/hnum/9591574/art_hex/576f6c6667616e672d416d61646575732d4d6f7a6172742d53e46d746c696368652d4b6c61766965726b6f6e7a65727465 (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/lang/en/currency/EUR/hnum/9591574/art_hex/576f6c6667616e672d416d61646575732d4d6f7a6172742d53e46d746c696368652d4b6c61766965726b6f6e7a65727465)

(They also offer an audio sample of every track on every CD, so you can spend a long time deciding if it's what you want!)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Franco on May 06, 2010, 04:45:23 AM
I don't know anything about this (http://www.euromusicashop.com/) - but it's the vendor given on Viviana Sofronitsky's website for buying her Mozart PC set.

 A bit odd, but I may send an email just to get details of price, etc.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Marc on May 06, 2010, 04:57:53 AM
[....]
Price is high for a copy, but where else can you go...............
Libraries?

Thanks to them, I managed to get a copy of quite a few OOP issues during the years. Borrowing a disc for one week for a price between € 1,50 and € 2,50 (depending if they had it in their very own catalogue or not).

BTW: in the merry month of May at jpc, Van Immerseel's box set for € 30,--!
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Wolfgang-Amadeus-Mozart-21-Klavierkonzerte/hnum/4476423
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Franco on May 06, 2010, 05:01:29 AM
Libraries?

Thanks to them, I managed to get a copy of quite a few OOP issues during the years. Borrowing a disc for one week for a price between € 1,50 and € 2,50 (depending if they had it in their very own catalogue or not).

My local public library does not have a huge classical music collection, it's decent, but does not have these particular recordings, nor many other performers doing Mozart PC - and they do not do inter-library loans for recorded media.  But on the upside, there is no charge to borrow any material from the library.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidRoss on May 06, 2010, 06:03:27 AM
The only complete HIP set I have is Bilson/Gardiner, and I haven't felt any need for purchasing another yet. Perhaps if René Jacobs decided to record them...! ;D
And the only one I have is Immerseel, which falls far short for me of my faves with modern piano.  But were Jacobs to record these, or Minkowski (and presuming a suitable pianist were involved!), I would scarcely hesitate.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Franco on May 06, 2010, 09:58:39 AM
I don't know anything about this (http://www.euromusicashop.com/) - but it's the vendor given on Viviana Sofronitsky's website for buying her Mozart PC set.

 A bit odd, but I may send an email just to get details of price, etc.

Got a reply to my email - price is $69 + $10 shipping - via check on US bank. 

This is a better price than anything I've seen elsewhere - my concern is mailing a check off to an unknown European vendor.   

I will mull some more.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 06, 2010, 12:51:56 PM
Got a reply to my email - price is $69 + $10 shipping - via check on US bank. 
This is a better price than anything I've seen elsewhere - my concern is mailing a check off to an unknown European vendor.   
I will mull some more.

Franco et al - well, I also sent an e-mail to EuroMusica (http://euromusica.cz/en/) in the Czech Republic and shortly received the response quoted below, i.e. the entire 'box set' of Viviana Sofronitsky delivered to my door for $60 - now I cannot complained about the offering, but.....

I've not responded about the payment options - the e-mail was from 'euromusic.cz' and I assume that it is legitimate but just not sure?  I'm sure w/ a response that a 'mailed check' (or similar option) would be requested; would I get a choice of a credit card w/ a secured server?  Not sure - at the moment, I can find this box set for close to $100 or more at other sites (and many say a 'waiting period'), so a BIG difference - really would love to hear these recordings!

Any advice, additional options, etc. - thanks all - Dave  :-\

Quote
Dear Dave,
 
Thank you for your message & your interest in the Mozart Piano Concertos boxset!
 
As far as the prices are concerned, I know that some retailers might have higher prices on this excluxive set. Based on that it is a limited edition, we could offer a special price for you : $50 + shipping = $60.
 
Please let me know if this is OK.
 
Thanks!
 
Andrei
 
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Franco on May 06, 2010, 01:52:22 PM
I'm miffed that you got a much better price than I did.  What did you say in your email to extract this offer?
:)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on May 06, 2010, 01:55:07 PM
I'm miffed that you got a much better price than I did.  What did you say in your email to extract this offer?
:)

Hey it might have been you, you know? :D  You weren't quick to jump on the offer, so maybe for the next person they decided to offer it at a lower price. :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 06, 2010, 02:31:40 PM
I'm miffed that you got a much better price than I did.  What did you say in your email to extract this offer?
:)

Franco & David - well nothing special (below is the quoted e-mail that I sent them); not sure that David is right or that we are even communicating w/ the same people?  I'm not really sure that this is the real web site for the company or a fake?  Despite a great offer, I'm quite reluctant to pursue their offer - nothing against the Czech Republic and wanting to do business w/ them, but more afraid of a fraud website?  But I'm a computer paranoiac, so my problem, I guess - thanks for the input - Dave  :)


Quote
 

Hello,

I ' m trying to find a ' good price ' on the Viviana Sofronitsky box set of the Mozart Piano Concertos - many sites neither have the set or are asking an excessive amount!

Thus, I was wondering about your costs, i.e. what would be the price to me in US dollars (both product & shipping/handling) to ship to North Carolina (east coast USA )?

Thanks for any information - name deleted
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Marc on May 06, 2010, 02:45:39 PM
My local public library does not have a huge classical music collection, it's decent, but does not have these particular recordings, nor many other performers doing Mozart PC - and they do not do inter-library loans for recorded media.  But on the upside, there is no charge to borrow any material from the library.
Pity about the impossibility of inter-library loans. Yes, I do have to pay some, but I can get books & discs from (almost) any library in the country (Netherlands). Although for discs it's mainly the central phonothèque in Rotterdam.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Franco on May 06, 2010, 03:48:29 PM
Franco & David - well nothing special (below is the quoted e-mail that I sent them); not sure that David is right or that we are even communicating w/ the same people?  I'm not really sure that this is the real web site for the company or a fake?  Despite a great offer, I'm quite reluctant to pursue their offer - nothing against the Czech Republic and wanting to do business w/ them, but more afraid of a fraud website?  But I'm a computer paranoiac, so my problem, I guess - thanks for the input - Dave  :)

In a subsequent email after I asked about where to send the payment, I was given an address to a Bank of America in NYC, to the attn of a Ms Herman and the acct# and name of Andrey Rubin.

We did get emails from the same person (Andrei) - but I too am reluctant to buy in this manner, esp. with the varying pricing.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 06, 2010, 04:01:15 PM
In a subsequent email after I asked about where to send the payment, I was given an address to a Bank of America in NYC, to the attn of a Ms Herman and the acct# and name of Andrey Rubin.

We did get emails from the same person (Andrei) - but I too am reluctant to buy in this manner, esp. with the varying pricing.

Franco - I may not even continue this e-mail exchange - from your comments, I think we could lose $60 or so and not receive our expected box set - I'm not going to pursue this any further, but just me - Dave  :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 06, 2010, 04:07:26 PM
Hey! C'mon you guys, nut up and send the damned money. I need to know if it's a scam or not. I don't even want that set but I'd pay $60 for it if you guys don't get ripped off. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Schuppanzigh Quartet - Hob 03 49 Quartet in D for Strings Op 50 #6 2nd mvmt - Poco adagio
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 06, 2010, 04:26:29 PM
Hey! C'mon you guys, nut up and send the damned money. I need to know if it's a scam or not. I don't even want that set but I'd pay $60 for it if you guys don't get ripped off. :)

Now Gurn - I know that you're drooling to obtain that set!   :D  But are you trying to get Franco & I involved in a potential scam?   :) ;D   Dave -  8)

(http://themormonworker.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/scapegoat2_sm.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 06, 2010, 04:36:50 PM
Now Gurn - I know that you're drooling to obtain that set!   :D  But are you trying to get Franco & I involved in a potential scam?   :) ;D   Dave -  8)

(http://themormonworker.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/scapegoat2_sm.jpg)

Actually, this was the picture I had in mind:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Mistakes-1.jpg)

As for me, I have Gardiner/Bilson, Immerseel and 3/4 of Levin/Hogwood, and I'm not even sure who wrote those concerti... ;D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Schuppanzigh Quartet - Hob 03 63 Quartet in D for Strings Op 64 #5 4th mvmt - Finale: Vivace
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 06, 2010, 05:13:05 PM
Actually, this was the picture I had in mind:   ;D

As for me, I have Gardiner/Bilson, Immerseel and 3/4 of Levin/Hogwood, and I'm not even sure who wrote those concerti...P.S. maybe we need someone who has heard most of these recordings?  ;D


Well, I have the Bilson set - not sure that the others are substantially different,  but the Sofroniski set does sound like something to experience?  But just IMO - P.S. maybe we need someone who has heard most of these recordings to respond?   Dave  ;D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on May 07, 2010, 07:32:50 AM
Franco - I may not even continue this e-mail exchange - from your comments, I think we could lose $60 or so and not receive our expected box set - I'm not going to pursue this any further, but just me - Dave  :)
If I were in your position, Dave, I'd launch off an email to Viviana Sofronitzki herself, present my anxieties, and seek her personal reassurance. After all, the direct link to the seller is on her website, so she should know something about them, one supposes.

Contact details:
http://www.sofronitsky.com/contacts.html (http://www.sofronitsky.com/contacts.html)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 07, 2010, 01:40:15 PM
If I were in your position, Dave, I'd launch off an email to Viviana Sofronitzki herself, present my anxieties, and seek her personal reassurance. After all, the direct link to the seller is on her website, so she should know something about them, one supposes.

Contact details:
http://www.sofronitsky.com/contacts.html (http://www.sofronitsky.com/contacts.html)

Elgarian - interesting thought, if she (or her representative) even decides to respond?  Actually I've probably e-mailed a half dozen performers and about half or so have responded; currently have a message to Lambert Orkis out in cyberspace somewhere?

In checking the website named previously, the statement is made 'under construction' - I'm sure eventually, a credit card option will be offered - I'd rather deal w/ a credit card than my personal check flying across the ocean; but who knows by the time the site is 'fully operational', the set may be much more or OOP? Dave  :-\
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Franco on May 09, 2010, 03:19:14 PM
My collection is woefully weak in Mozart wind concertos, and I was sampling the Hogwood set but was wondering about other PI recordings.  I don't think the Freiburg Baroque Orchestra has done most of them, I found a couple of discs with the horn and flute/harp, and will definitely purchase the piano/clarinet concerto combo (The Last Concertos (http://www.amazon.com/Last-Concertos-Wolfgang-Amadeus-Mozart/dp/B000XQHQWQ/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I2JCNA7QTXL4Z1&colid=E4VRT9YFR6D)) - but would appreciate some other PI suggestions especially for the non-horn concertos, the horn ones are my least favorite.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: kishnevi on May 09, 2010, 06:37:32 PM
I only have "modern" versions, but these two oboe recordings seem possibilities:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/419C2ZRRV0L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31F1DCE94CL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

if only because of the non Mozartian couplings.    I have some other recordings by the London Mozart Players (Hummel piano concertos, on Chandos) that I like.

Although, given the differences between "natural" horns of Mozart's day and the modern horn,  it's the horn concertos of which  I would be most interested in hearing a PI recording.

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on May 10, 2010, 12:21:56 AM
Although, given the differences between "natural" horns of Mozart's day and the modern horn,  it's the horn concertos of which  I would be most interested in hearing a PI recording.

Absolutely, and if I'm not mistaken the general consensus here (a rarity! ;D) is: Ab Koster with Tafelmusik under Bruno Weil. Can't go wrong on that one, IMO.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61V6NEK5FSL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 10, 2010, 03:15:06 AM
Absolutely, and if I'm not mistaken the general consensus here (a rarity! ;D) is: Ab Koster with Tafelmusik under Bruno Weil. Can't go wrong on that one, IMO.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61V6NEK5FSL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Q

Yes, I think we have a consensus that there is a consensus about this disk. That is to say, it would be MY top rec too. :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on May 10, 2010, 04:29:50 AM
Yup it's excellent, it doesn't fall into the trap of making Mozart sound like Strauss (like some modern recordings do) while still preserving the charm that these pieces have in spades. :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Franco on May 10, 2010, 04:48:17 AM
Okay - well, that takes care of the concertos I was not very interested in. 

:)

But what about the clarinet, oboe and bassoon?

I've already got the clarinet/oboe with Hogwood, and just got the clarinet by the Freiburg, I don't know if I've ever heard the bassoon concerto.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 10, 2010, 05:00:11 AM
Okay - well, that takes care of the concertos I was not very interested in. 

:)

But what about the clarinet, oboe and bassoon?

I've already got the clarinet/oboe with Hogwood, and just got the clarinet by the Freiburg, I don't know if I've ever heard the bassoon concerto.

Well, you may find it odd that a readily available and inexpensive version of anything could be highly rated too, but along with Hogwood I also have the 3 disk set by the Orchestra of Old Fairfield Academy (now called American Classical Orchestra, IIRC), and they are really very pleasing. This would be the oboe, flute, bassoon, flute & harp and horn concerti. I absolutely recommend them. :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Daverz on May 11, 2010, 05:31:38 AM
I downloaded the Mackerras 38-41 on Linn, and have been very pleased with them.  Gutsy brass, but the strings also play well, without whining or sourness.  As is his usual habit, he is generous with repeats, which does make some movements seem to last forever.  The first movement of 38 takes over 17 minutes.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Aeolian harp on May 12, 2010, 10:20:52 AM

I'm also keeping my eye on the Brautigam Mozart PC recordings - I've heard a few things on YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVnk2pVw_FA&feature=related) that sounded absolutely fantastic, with the fortepiano placed in the middle of the orchestra for an exceptional balance.

Ooh, any word on when Brautigam's Mozart PC cycle will be released? :) (I mean the major Mozart PCs such as the D minor K466 on YouTube there, rather than the early non-solo PCs)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Clever Hans on May 13, 2010, 09:34:56 AM
Ooh, any word on when Brautigam's Mozart PC cycle will be released? :) (I mean the major Mozart PCs such as the D minor K466 on YouTube there, rather than the early non-solo PCs)

http://www.koelnerakademie.com/index.php?id=4&L=1

Supposedly, they began recording them in the fall, so perhaps we'll see a release of a couple concertos this year. The conductor lists K414 and K271 Jeunehomme with Brautigam for BIS on his resume.

http://www.koelnerakademie.com/index.php?id=3&L=1
 
It's certainly what I'm holding out for, as far as picking up another fortepiano set.
As a soloist/orchestra whole, I don't think anyone has yet matched Bilson and Gardiner, although one could make a convincing argument for Levin and Hogwood. 
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on June 02, 2010, 12:57:00 PM
I'm trying to pick out a set of PI Mozart Violin Concertos.  There do not seem to be many options in print.  Any opinions, or recs?  I was kind of leaning towards Standage/Hogwood, is it any good?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on June 02, 2010, 01:05:41 PM
I'm trying to pick out a set of PI Mozart Violin Concertos.  There do not seem to be many options in print.  Any opinions, or recs?  I was kind of leaning towards Standage/Hogwood, is it any good?

The Beauty is (frequently) an expensive thing:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51f5MzwOtiL._SS500_.jpg)

 ;)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on June 02, 2010, 01:09:19 PM
Yeah that's uh... Jens level expensive. :D  $50 is a little too rich for my taste.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: jlaurson on June 02, 2010, 01:09:54 PM
I'm trying to pick out a set of PI Mozart Violin Concertos.  There do not seem to be many options in print.  Any opinions, or recs?  I was kind of leaning towards Standage/Hogwood, is it any good?

By all means Manze!
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41KW4FXZ08L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
W.A.Mozart
Violin Concertos 3, 4, 5
A.Manze
The English Concert
Harmonia Mundi, SACD (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CPHBQY?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000CPHBQY)

The non-SACD version (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CPHBR8?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000CPHBR8) is obviously less expensive.


I know it's not complete -- "only" 3-5. But a.) When they're played like this, completeism isn't, musn't, can't be your primary concern. b.) They're the obviously superior concertos.

If complete it must be (only in addition to Manze, of course), Kavakos / Camerata Salzburg are quasi-PI and very good.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51DquTmEVIL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
W.A.Mozart
Violin Concertos 1-5,
Sinf. Conct.
L.Kavakos
Camerata Salzburg
Sony (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FMHCNG?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000FMHCNG)

Zehetmair/Brueggen--the alternative for the complete set, nice though it is (and lavishly packaged), hasn't yet completely convinced me.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on June 02, 2010, 01:13:59 PM
The Manze samples sound interesting... I'll have to youtube complete tracks. :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: jlaurson on June 02, 2010, 01:19:09 PM
The Manze samples sound interesting... I'll have to youtube complete tracks. :)

Or you could take my ex cathedra word for it.   ;)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bulldog on June 02, 2010, 01:41:52 PM
I love the Mullova disc on Philips where she also directs the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment in nos. 1, 2 and 4.  Unfortunately, it might be out of print although ArkivMusic has it as an Arkiv disc.

Concerning the Standage set, I'd say take a pass.  I find it lacking character with the dominant color being "gray".
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on June 02, 2010, 01:47:23 PM
The samples sound terrific for that Mullova cd.  I should see if youtube has anything on that too. :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on June 02, 2010, 02:16:32 PM
Alright I've done my listening and also made a great discovery Biondi rocks in Mozart as well! :)  Both Biondi and Manze sounded tops in Mozart, which leads me to my purchases:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Q86YHY78L._SS400_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61QDEVSXTVL._SS500_.jpg)

Thanks for the help all. :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on June 02, 2010, 04:44:39 PM
Alright I've done my listening and also made a great discovery Biondi rocks in Mozart as well! :)
The Biondi is like an Italian spin on Mozart's violin concertos.  Some of the liberties taken make me cringe a bit, bit in all it's quite an exciting ride!
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on June 02, 2010, 06:14:50 PM
Yeah that's uh... Jens level expensive. :D  $50 is a little too rich for my taste.

Well, that double-CD is currently on sale on MDT for $15. Presto Classical offers it for $26 or something so.

As I previously said Zehetmair and Brüggen are my favorites in these violin concertos, but I would also add Ryo Terakado/Sigiswald Kuijken (they alternatively play the different works as soloists), three CDs on Denon that include the complete violin concertos, the Sinfonia Concertante K. 364 and the Concertone K. 190. The problem: That set is quite expensive and hard to find.

I have another four HIP versions: Simon Standage/AAM/Hogwood, Monica Huggett/Orchestra of Age of Enlightenment, Andrew Manze/The English Concert (incomplete) and Fabio Biondi/Europa Galante (incomplete). Curiously my opinion about the first three renditions is similar: technically faultless, but totally cold (here maybe I am being a bit unfair with Mrs. Huggett). I believe Sorin is right about Biondi: although he is less orthodox at least his interpretations seem warmer and, apparently, he has more empathy with these works. All this IMHO, of course.

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on June 02, 2010, 07:13:38 PM
It is not one of the violin concertos, but the 2nd movement ("Andantino grazioso") of the Concertone for 2 violins & Orchestra K. 190:


http://www.divshare.com/flash/playlist?myId=11575712-b0f


Sigiswald Kuijken (Giovanni Grancino, Milano, ca. 1700)
Ryo Terakado (Giovanni Grancino, Milano, ca. 1691)
La Petite Bande

Enjoy "the worst composer ever"!  :D 



Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: kishnevi on June 02, 2010, 07:47:38 PM
I'm trying to pick out a set of PI Mozart Violin Concertos.  There do not seem to be many options in print.  Any opinions, or recs?  I was kind of leaning towards Standage/Hogwood, is it any good?

Not mentioned, and more quasi PI, is the Carmignola/Abbado recording, which includes the Sinfonia Concertante.

Also, Podger has done the Sinfonia Concertante with the OAE on a disc that includes two Haydn concertos.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Brahmsian on June 03, 2010, 03:54:52 AM
I'm trying to pick out a set of PI Mozart Violin Concertos.  There do not seem to be many options in print.  Any opinions, or recs?  I was kind of leaning towards Standage/Hogwood, is it any good?

How about Ehnes and the Mozart Anniversary Orchestra on CBC Records?  Terrific sound, wonderful performances!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516JN9E035L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 03, 2010, 05:14:35 AM
How about Ehnes and the Mozart Anniversary Orchestra on CBC Records?  Terrific sound, wonderful performances!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516JN9E035L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Not PI though, which was a criterion. I like Ehnes, damn fine fiddler. He should go PI, learn some Classical techniques and hook up with Tafelmusik (that other fine Canadian institution) and make some real music! :D

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Franco on June 03, 2010, 05:30:41 AM
I've got Mullova, Manze, Kremer and Huggett, who no one has mentioned, and the only complete set I own.  I like them all, but find Huggett's poise very suited to these works.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Q70KM11EL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 03, 2010, 05:46:03 AM
I've got Mullova, Manze, Kremer and Huggett, who no one has mentioned, and the only complete set I own.  I like them all, but find Huggett's poise very suited to these works.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Q70KM11EL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Yes, that is the only full cycle that I have (PI), and I agree with you. Actually, I expect the Manze to be quite similar stylistically, although Huggett tends to be a bit more outgoing in her playing, which suits Mozart nicely.

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on June 03, 2010, 06:26:01 AM
quasi PI,

There is no such thing as quasi PI btw.  That's actually why I used the phrase PI instead of HIP so that quasi would be illegal.  It's either on period instruments or it's on modern.  I want period instruments not modern.  Sorry. :-X
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on June 03, 2010, 06:30:57 AM
Well, that double-CD is currently on sale on MDT for $15. Presto Classical offers it for $26 or something so.

Thanks Antoine!  It is ordered!!! :) :) :) :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Brahmsian on June 03, 2010, 08:05:23 AM
Not PI though, which was a criterion.

My bad, David.  :D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on June 03, 2010, 08:18:01 AM
Thanks Antoine!  It is ordered!!! :) :) :) :)

Great! I hope you will enjoy it.  :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on June 03, 2010, 09:18:52 AM
My bad, David.  :D

No problem, I just wanted to nip that "quasi-PI" thing in the bud before it became accepted gmg terminology. ;D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on June 03, 2010, 09:27:42 AM
No problem, I just wanted to nip that "quasi-PI" thing in the bud before it became accepted gmg terminology. ;D

I should think that quasi- or pseudo-HIP would serve better depending on the recording (and the opinion of the speaker :D).
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on June 03, 2010, 09:42:14 AM
I should think that quasi- or pseudo-HIP would serve better depending on the recording (and the opinion of the speaker :D).

Well the thing is what is quasi-HIP?  It's so vague that it's useless.  It seems very easy to throw that label onto nearly any kind of modern performance.  What one person considers quasi-HIP another might not.  When you think about it to some extent everything is quasi-HIP. :D

But my objection isn't to that, it's to "quasi-PI" which is different.  The only way something could be quasi-PI is if part of the orchestra used period instruments and the rest used modern instruments (like Herreweghe and the Royal Flemish Orchestra performing Beethoven).  That is very different from quasi-HIP and not many recordings are quasi-PI. :)

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Franco on June 03, 2010, 09:49:43 AM
I guess people have begun using the abbreviations PI and HIP interchangeably; and adding "quasi" to either implies a hybrid approach like the Beethoven/Jarvi recordings (using modern instruments but with a HIP interpretation).
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on June 03, 2010, 10:08:01 AM
I guess people have begun using the abbreviations PI and HIP interchangeably; and adding "quasi" to either implies a hybrid approach like the Beethoven/Jarvi recordings (using modern instruments but with a HIP interpretation).

I don't use PI because I was introduced to the descriptor HIP as something (a recording or a performance of music) which employs period instruments and some amount of academic research into the performing techniques of the period. Therefore, as you rightly point out, quasi-HIP to me is the "hybrid approach," an example of which is the Carmignola/Abbado recording.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bulldog on June 03, 2010, 10:15:25 AM
I don't use PI because I was introduced to the descriptor HIP as something (a recording or a performance of music) which employs period instruments and some amount of academic research into the performing techniques of the period.

The problem is that an increasing number of folks use HIP to denote modern instrument performances possessing a HIP sensibility.  So I stopped using HIP and try to remember to use PI exclusively.  It's just a communication issue.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on June 03, 2010, 10:18:35 AM
The problem is that an increasing number of folks use HIP to denote modern instrument performances possessing a HIP sensibility.  So I stopped using HIP and try to remember to use PI exclusively.  It's just a communication issue.

Yep. I noticed Que recently (did he start just now?) using HIPPI. ;D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 03, 2010, 10:23:02 AM
I don't use PI because I was introduced to the descriptor HIP as something (a recording or a performance of music) which employs period instruments and some amount of academic research into the performing techniques of the period. Therefore, as you rightly point out, quasi-HIP to me is the "hybrid approach," an example of which is the Carmignola/Abbado recording.

PI is rather less compromising than HIP in that regard; period instruments (and reproductions) is period instruments. No hybrids need apply. This is no slight to HIP/Hybrid, it is instead a tribute to the sound of PI. Thus, you can't really BE quasi-PI. :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: George on June 03, 2010, 01:58:24 PM
PI is rather less compromising than HIP in that regard; period instruments (and reproductions) is period instruments. No hybrids need apply. This is no slight to HIP/Hybrid, it is instead a tribute to the sound of PI. Thus, you can't really BE quasi-PI. :)

8)

Sure you can:


(http://api.ning.com/files/2J2BQqLjTV**apkeM6Avd*cCKPZUyzOU-bsixrYT*W8rUwsqV1NdKX-nz2OVttoITQdVBAdXIjXrc9UKLRUrjmnJDUyeTE3x/magnum_pi_tom_selleck.jpg)



 ;)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Franco on June 03, 2010, 02:04:19 PM
Actually, that qualifies as quasi-HIP ...

 :D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: George on June 03, 2010, 02:06:17 PM
Actually, that qualify as quasi-HIP ...

 :D

 ;D

And quasi PI, as he was only one on TV.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on June 03, 2010, 02:10:05 PM
;D

And quasi PI, as he was only one on TV.

I thought he was quasi PI because he was part PI part swinging bachelor. ;D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: George on June 03, 2010, 02:21:26 PM
I thought he was quasi PI because he was part PI part swinging bachelor. ;D

You sound like Higgins.  ;D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on June 03, 2010, 02:40:20 PM
You sound like Higgins.  ;D

haha :D yeah that I do. :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: George on June 03, 2010, 02:42:26 PM
haha :D yeah that I do. :)

I'm gonna have T.C. take care of you.  8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 04, 2010, 05:10:37 AM
I've got Mullova, Manze, Kremer and Huggett, who no one has mentioned, and the only complete set I own.  I like them all, but find Huggett's poise very suited to these works.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Q70KM11EL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3006/2769857106_b4ac89fd5e.jpg)

Coming in late to the Violin Concertos discussion - the Huggett sounds like a good PI instrument choice and the price is RIGHT!  I have two sets of these works, the older traditional but excellent Grumiaux  and the more recently recorded Carmignola & Abbado w/ a PI group -  :D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Coopmv on June 13, 2010, 07:16:02 AM
Here an interview with Christopher Hogwood on HIP Mozart ... (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.newmillenniumrecords.com/classroom/hogwood.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.newmillenniumrecords.com/classroom/room39.html&h=242&w=200&sz=9&tbnid=mR6citfKgw9QUM:&tbnh=110&tbnw=91&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dchristopher%2Bhogwood&hl=en&usg=__4ZfRuI9eB0Bj1ZHkohBYCT6cC8Y=&sa=X&ei=g_8UTOCiB8L98AaTpoC8Cg&ved=0CEQQ9QEwBA)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on June 13, 2010, 10:03:17 AM
Here an interview with Christopher Hogwood on HIP Mozart ... (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.newmillenniumrecords.com/classroom/hogwood.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.newmillenniumrecords.com/classroom/room39.html&h=242&w=200&sz=9&tbnid=mR6citfKgw9QUM:&tbnh=110&tbnw=91&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dchristopher%2Bhogwood&hl=en&usg=__4ZfRuI9eB0Bj1ZHkohBYCT6cC8Y=&sa=X&ei=g_8UTOCiB8L98AaTpoC8Cg&ved=0CEQQ9QEwBA)

Thanks, Stuart. That was a short but informative interview with Hogwood.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on June 15, 2010, 04:47:23 AM
Yup that was interesting, especially the part about the tempi of the minuets at the end.  I guess Pinnock's more brisk pacing is closer to accurate then?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on June 15, 2010, 04:59:07 AM
Yup that was interesting, especially the part about the tempi of the minuets at the end.  I guess Pinnock's more brisk pacing is closer to accurate then?

I haven't heard Pinnock, so does he apply the brisk pacing throughout the works or does he do so selectively, i.e. only to the minuets? I'd think it would be a good approximation only if it's the latter case.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 15, 2010, 05:01:00 AM
Yup that was interesting, especially the part about the tempi of the minuets at the end.  I guess Pinnock's more brisk pacing is closer to accurate then?

Minuets are nearly always performed more slowly than they should be. I like Pinnock's efforts there. The Classical minuet was not intended to be danced to, it was a scherzo in all but name. :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on June 15, 2010, 05:08:33 AM
Minuets are nearly always performed more slowly than they should be. I like Pinnock's efforts there. The Classical minuet was not intended to be danced to, it was a scherzo in all but name. :)

8)

I like the minuet played fast and  a little 'forcefully' in a work like K. 550, for instance, -- it sounds to me almost like a Totentanz. Otherwise, I don't mind danceable minuets. :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 15, 2010, 06:11:33 AM
Yup that was interesting, especially the part about the tempi of the minuets at the end.  I guess Pinnock's more brisk pacing is closer to accurate then?

No, I don't believe so. That one-in-a-bar slam dance cannot be historically accurate. It makes nonsense of the music, makes nonsense of the classical ideal of balance. When a classical-era composer wanted a Scherzo, he labeled the movement Scherzo. When he called it a minuet, I have no doubt that's exactly what he meant it to be. I don't mind that you and Gurn like the faster tempo of some HIPsters but to me it just makes the music sound silly and utterly wrong (e.g., what Jacobs does to the minuets in Mozart's final three symphonies which are marked Allegretto--same speed as the slow movement of Beethoven's Seventh--and which Jacobs clearly violates in a most brutal fashion).

I haven't seen any conclusive evidence that classical composers wanted their minuets to sound anything other than a minuet. If there were such evidence, then most conductors, not just a few, would have altered the tempos decades ago. Hogwood's reasoning--that it makes the repeats easier to bear--seems like anachronistic reasoning: we live in a faster paced world so we get impatient with the repeats and assume 18th century listeners did too. But, hey, they had nothing better to do than to listen to music in the dark...the longer the music the better  ;D

Minuets are nearly always performed more slowly than they should be. I like Pinnock's efforts there. The Classical minuet was not intended to be danced to, it was a scherzo in all but name. :)

To believe that means that almost every conductor before Pinnock and his ilk got it wrong. I don't think they did. There is no logical reason a composer would mark a movement minuet (instead of a simple tempo indication like they did with every other movement) unless they meant it to be played as a minuet.

By the way, I own Pinnock's box and enjoy it, especially the early symphonies. But I don't thnk he's correct. It's just fun to hear the music played wrong sometimes  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on June 15, 2010, 06:32:58 AM
But, hey, they had nothing better to do than to listen to music in the dark...the longer the music the better  ;D

Sounds like Haydn's Farewell symphony! :D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on January 27, 2011, 03:43:27 AM
Mozart Harmoniemusik from 'The Marriage of Figaro" Zefiro Ensemble

http://www.youtube.com/v/USJslsQhS-c

http://www.youtube.com/v/XzADjCpIz3g

Best example of 'HIP' Mozart - the arrangements (instrumentation a la Grand Partita) are not even eighteenth- or nineteenth-century, but Mozart's music was arranged and performed entirely in style, as much one can hope for anyway.

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/2898728.jpg)


ps. It's Mozart's birthday! But seems everyone is bit O.D. on that.


 
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on January 27, 2011, 04:53:15 AM
ps. It's Mozart's birthday! But seems everyone is bit O.D. on that. 

Indeed. And the 5th year anniversary of my foray into western classical music. ;D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Luke on January 27, 2011, 04:59:15 AM
No, I don't believe so. That one-in-a-bar slam dance cannot be historically accurate. It makes nonsense of the music, makes nonsense of the classical ideal of balance. When a classical-era composer wanted a Scherzo, he labeled the movement Scherzo. When he called it a minuet, I have no doubt that's exactly what he meant it to be. I don't mind that you and Gurn like the faster tempo of some HIPsters but to me it just makes the music sound silly and utterly wrong (e.g., what Jacobs does to the minuets in Mozart's final three symphonies which are marked Allegretto--same speed as the slow movement of Beethoven's Seventh--and which Jacobs clearly violates in a most brutal fashion).

I haven't seen any conclusive evidence that classical composers wanted their minuets to sound anything other than a minuet. If there were such evidence, then most conductors, not just a few, would have altered the tempos decades ago. Hogwood's reasoning--that it makes the repeats easier to bear--seems like anachronistic reasoning: we live in a faster paced world so we get impatient with the repeats and assume 18th century listeners did too. But, hey, they had nothing better to do than to listen to music in the dark...the longer the music the better  ;D

To believe that means that almost every conductor before Pinnock and his ilk got it wrong. I don't think they did. There is no logical reason a composer would mark a movement minuet (instead of a simple tempo indication like they did with every other movement) unless they meant it to be played as a minuet.

By the way, I own Pinnock's box and enjoy it, especially the early symphonies. But I don't thnk he's correct. It's just fun to hear the music played wrong sometimes  :D

Sarge

Seeing as this thread is ressurected, I'd just reply to the highlighted part of Sarge's 2+ years old post (I hadn't read it before, and it's where the thread opened up for me). There is one other logical reason, and one that might apply to many pieces, I suspect - convention/force of habit: I'll call this movement a minuet because that is what movements that go at this point in a symphony are called.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on January 27, 2011, 05:35:01 AM
Indeed. And the 5th year anniversary of my foray into western classical music. ;D

A happy day indeed!   :)

(Back to work, Mozart later.)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Clever Hans on January 27, 2011, 12:58:02 PM
...
To believe that means that almost every conductor before Pinnock and his ilk got it wrong. I don't think they did. There is no logical reason a composer would mark a movement minuet (instead of a simple tempo indication like they did with every other movement) unless they meant it to be played as a minuet.

Sarge

There is evidence that minuets ranged from the danceable (moderate) to the not really danceable (fast), the latter namely in late Haydn and Mozart.
At least symphony and quartet metronome markings from Czerny and Hummel shed light on possible performance practice of their time.

http://books.google.com/books?id=scJvsb-rGLIC&pg=PA298&lpg=PA298&dq=Carl+Czerny's+Metronome+Marks+for.+Haydn+and+Mozart+Symphonies&source=bl&ots=9P3WyXmrLE&sig=BxNhm5tsQVS1b3VGvhR2Zb8yz7o&hl=en&ei=GthBTbDCCsvAgQfVteC9AQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Carl%20Czerny's%20Metronome%20Marks%20for.%20Haydn%20and%20Mozart%20Symphonies&f=false

http://em.oxfordjournals.org/content/XXI/3/437.full.pdf
http://em.oxfordjournals.org/content/XVI/1/72.full.pdf

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 27, 2011, 01:14:38 PM
Hans,
Thanks so much for these attachments! I shall pore over them tonight. I have read some quotes from the 2nd one, so it will be nice to see them in context.   :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Clever Hans on January 27, 2011, 01:27:38 PM
Hans,
Thanks so much for these attachments! I shall pore over them tonight. I have read some quotes from the 2nd one, so it will be nice to see them in context.   :)

8)

Sure thing! Fun for geeky moods.
You should check out Clive Brown's article on Immerseel's Beethoven as well. The part on staccato markings in particular is very interesting, and you can see how this kind of thinking has influenced e.g. Harnoncourt's interpretations.
http://em.oxfordjournals.org/content/36/4/667.full
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidRoss on January 27, 2011, 01:39:23 PM
Sure thing! Fun for geeky moods.
You should check out Clive Brown's article on Immerseel's Beethoven as well. The part on staccato markings in particular is very interesting, and you can see how this kind of thinking has influenced e.g. Harnoncourt's interpretations.
http://em.oxfordjournals.org/content/36/4/667.full
Hmmm.  Brown's suggestion that no period performance practice Beethoven recordings use tempo rubato make me question his familiarity with Brüggen's cycle.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 27, 2011, 01:40:49 PM
Sure thing! Fun for geeky moods.
You should check out Clive Brown's article on Immerseel's Beethoven as well. The part on staccato markings in particular is very interesting, and you can see how this kind of thinking has influenced e.g. Harnoncourt's interpretations.
http://em.oxfordjournals.org/content/36/4/667.full

I am bullheaded not to subscribe to it. It has such great articles. Somehow, being an amateur has kept me from jumping in with the professionals. My bad... :-\

Thanks again!

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 27, 2011, 03:02:50 PM
I am bullheaded not to subscribe to it. It has such great articles. Somehow, being an amateur has kept me from jumping in with the professionals. My bad... :-\

I prefer to remain an amateur, a dilettante, even if you want an ugly word: a hobbyist. I don't make money with the music, I spend my money in music.  ;)

P.S.: No offense intended to our professional musicians and critics here.... It was just an opportunity to use the word "dilettante".  ;D

P.S. 2: I also know Gurn was not expressing a desire of being a "professional"... but, again, I like the word "dilettante".  ;D ;D

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: RJR on January 28, 2011, 07:57:49 AM
To Sarge, three years later
I haven't seen any conclusive evidence that classical composers wanted their minuets to sound anything other than a minuet. If there were such evidence, then most conductors, not just a few, would have altered the tempos decades ago. Hogwood's reasoning--that it makes the repeats easier to bear--seems like anachronistic reasoning: we live in a faster paced world so we get impatient with the repeats and assume 18th century listeners did too. But, hey, they had nothing better to do than to listen to music in the dark...the longer the music the better  ;D

Right on, Sarge!

And operas were the 19th century equivalent of early moving pictures.

By the way, are you familiar with the Pantechnicon? I think that's how it's spelled. It was the size of a cathedral organ and could qualify as the first jukebox, so to speak. There was a doc on PBS about it some four or five years ago.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Brahmsian on January 28, 2011, 08:02:51 AM
Indeed. And the 5th year anniversary of my foray into western classical music. ;D

Happy Anniversary, Opus106!  My, how time flies!!  :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on January 28, 2011, 08:10:14 AM
Am I the only one seeing a June 2010 date-stamp on the recently resurrected post of Sarge's? ::)

Happy Anniversary, Opus106!  My, how time flies!!  :)

Thank you.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: RJR on January 28, 2011, 08:13:07 AM
P.S. 2: I also know Gurn was not expressing a desire of being a "professional"... but, again, I like the word "dilettante".  ;D ;D

We are amateur music lovers. We keep the home fires burning and ensure the survival of classical music. We are akin to the book reader/memorizers in Truffaut's Fahrenheit 451
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Brahmsian on January 28, 2011, 08:13:14 AM
Am I the only one seeing a June 2010 date-stamp on the recently resurrected post of Sarge's? ::)


No, I see that as well.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: RJR on January 28, 2011, 08:14:52 AM

Sure you can:


(http://api.ning.com/files/2J2BQqLjTV**apkeM6Avd*cCKPZUyzOU-bsixrYT*W8rUwsqV1NdKX-nz2OVttoITQdVBAdXIjXrc9UKLRUrjmnJDUyeTE3x/magnum_pi_tom_selleck.jpg)



 ;)
You forgot Boston Blackie.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on January 28, 2011, 08:16:15 AM
No, I see that as well.

Then you will agree that post is only a little older than 7 months, yes? ;D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: RJR on January 28, 2011, 08:24:31 AM
Try dancing even a 'classical' style minuet while listening to the 3rd movement of Beethoven's 2nd Symphony. You'll probably end up crosslegged, knock-kneed and eventually fall down on the dance floor.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: RJR on January 28, 2011, 08:31:02 AM
A little more hyperbole:

We are defenders of the realm, like the knights of ancient times that Bruckner imagined in the opening bars of his 4th Symphony.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on January 30, 2011, 01:17:27 AM
A comment on my post at youtube relates to the music joke of a false ending that the orchestra cannot stop playing.  I imagine one sometimes hears that in the act finales in his opera buffa! Maybe this is what makes this movement so much fun to listen to.

http://www.youtube.com/v/r_z6G3ftQGs

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: jlaurson on January 30, 2011, 05:04:40 AM
Just heard the Vienna Phil in Mozart & Haydn last night (with a few Mozart arias thrown in by Villazon)... and the only conclusion is: HIP is not in the instruments, nor in the exact performance practice... it's an attitude. It's been a very, very long time since I've heard a big symphonic orchestra (not that the number of musicians exceeded what Mozart had available in Paris or Haydn in London) play such lively Mozart. Louis Langree, who did not impress me at Mostly Mozart in New York (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/08/mostly-modest-mozart.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/08/mostly-modest-mozart.html)) was on the rostrum.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on January 30, 2011, 08:52:28 AM
For me, defining HIP is clearly as difficult and elusive as defining historicity itself.  What counts for 'the historical' in any musical performance?  A big question with enough answers to fill books.

http://www.youtube.com/v/Gyn23r2LwhI










Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: jlaurson on January 31, 2011, 12:41:31 AM
Just heard the Vienna Phil in Mozart & Haydn last night (with a few Mozart arias thrown in by Villazon)... and the only conclusion is: HIP is not in the instruments, nor in the exact performance practice... it's an attitude. It's been a very, very long time since I've heard a big symphonic orchestra (not that the number of musicians exceeded what Mozart had available in Paris or Haydn in London) play such lively Mozart. ...

But of course it was bested by the Chamber Orchestra of Europe (using natural trumpets) under Yannick Nezet Seguin the night after that. Holy cow... what a kick-ass performance of K543. (And some CPEBach to rock the house.)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on February 03, 2011, 10:27:56 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/T224iIFPs3Y



Seeing red!
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Leon on February 03, 2011, 10:32:22 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/T224iIFPs3Y

Looks very interesting, masolino, thanks for posting this information.  I wonder if this disc is part of a planned series?

 :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on February 03, 2011, 10:36:01 AM
Looks very interesting, masolino, thanks for posting this information.  I wonder if this disc is part of a planned series?

 :)

Bez is recording Mozart for Harmonia Mundi these days.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on February 03, 2011, 10:52:32 AM
Bez is recording Mozart for Harmonia Mundi these days.

Yeah the red "Sturm und Drang" album was made about ten years ago, supposedly Bez's :D younger and wilder days.  He still has a very spontaneous style these days, just seemingly not as radical.  :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on February 03, 2011, 11:06:36 PM
Well, I have the coupling with the Krell and it honestly isn't that hot whilst the Mozart performance is as absolutely stunning as the Brahms.

Q

http://www.youtube.com/v/_m6p14sjvLU




Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 04, 2011, 06:05:52 AM



Ah yes, the famous "Unavailable - we don't know when or if it will be back in stock..."   :-\  Pity, it would have gone in the basket today. Actually, I have a disk from that set already, but I could live with duplicating it to get the remainder. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Konstantin Scherbakov & S. Lyapunov - 12 études d'exécution transcendante, Op. 11: Lesginka

Lyapunov's Transcendental Etudes are the Cat's Ass. Just sayin'....   0:)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on February 04, 2011, 06:54:39 AM
Ah yes, the famous "Unavailable - we don't know when or if it will be back in stock..."   :-\  Pity, it would have gone in the basket today. Actually, I have a disk from that set already, but I could live with duplicating it to get the remainder. :)

8)

Sorry about that; the available copies at amazon fr and amazon uk are a bit overpriced for what they are...
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 04, 2011, 07:03:03 AM
Sorry about that; the available copies at amazon fr and amazon uk are a bit overpriced for what they are...

Not your fault. K617 has a habit of making 50 copies of each release and then letting the collector's market take it from there. I would lump them in with Astrée and Arcana in that respect. >:(   We PIons suffer the tortures of the damned as far as availability goes. That's why I learned a long time ago; if a new release comes out and you want it, BUY IT NOW!!  :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Lachner - Das Fischermädchen, Op. 33 10
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on February 04, 2011, 07:18:34 AM
The Mozart CQ coupled with that of Brahms' is available at BRO.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on February 04, 2011, 07:35:00 AM
The Mozart CQ coupled with that of Brahms' is available at BRO.

That's good; two enjoyable recordings available at bargain basement prices!
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on February 04, 2011, 07:55:58 AM
Not your fault. K617 has a habit of making 50 copies of each release and then letting the collector's market take it from there. I would lump them in with Astrée and Arcana in that respect. >:(   We PIons suffer the tortures of the damned as far as availability goes. That's why I learned a long time ago; if a new release comes out and you want it, BUY IT NOW!!  :)

8)

Arcana is better supplied now since they came under a new (Italian?) management.  I have been able to get some of their recordings second hand relatively easily.

http://www.youtube.com/v/NfzwMNbaDSs



Apparently only Mozart concerto recording on PI from Badura-Skoda (playing a Walter copy by McNulty).  Has some old-fashioned virtues that take a bit of quiet attention to appreciate.  Wish he had done more with this Czech group.

ps. His most recent PI Mozart recordings are a couple of violin sonata discs with young musician Thomas Albertus Irnberger on the Austrian lable Gramola. This one, for example:



Have not heard any of them since I am still very satisfied with the complete set I have recorded by Hiro Kurosaki and Linda Nicholson.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 04, 2011, 08:03:15 AM
Yes, Arcana is a bit better, although far from good. If it wasn't for distribution issues that truly piss me off, I would name them my favorite label, since they have recordings that are so much to my taste that they can do no wrong. Just getting them... :-\

I have that Badura-Skoda concerto disk. I agree, the backup band is excellent, and PBS is his usual excellent self.

Hadn't seen that F & V disk yet. Even though among all my considerable stack of Mozart's F & V sonatas I am satisfied, I would still give these a try. Never know what new revelations await... :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
D268 • Bergknappenlied
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bogey on February 07, 2011, 06:11:55 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Pxm4Z1gsL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

If I only could keep one of my Mozart recordings and had to part with the rest, this one I would be most happy with.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 07, 2011, 06:21:23 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Pxm4Z1gsL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

If I only could keep one of my Mozart recordings and had to part with the rest, this one I would be most happy with.

Yup, that one's first rate. I have a couple of others that are really interesting too, one that actually scores the strings like they should be (in the early ones, no cello, double bass instead), but overall, hard to go wrong with that Kuijken Outfit...

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Amati Quartet - Fauré Op 113 Quartet in e for Strings 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bogey on February 07, 2011, 06:22:53 PM
Yup, that one's first rate. I have a couple of others that are really interesting too, one that actually scores the strings like they should be (in the early ones, no cello, double bass instead), but overall, hard to go wrong with that Kuijken Outfit...

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Amati Quartet - Fauré Op 113 Quartet in e for Strings 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato
Can you post your recordings, Gurn....I believe I have asked this before, but.... ;D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 07, 2011, 06:45:37 PM
Can you post your recordings, Gurn....I believe I have asked this before, but.... ;D

Sure. I only have a few, maybe 4 or 5. I bet Masolino has all 233 of them... :D

Well, I have that one to start:
Kuijken Family
Les Adieux
Concertino Nottorno Prague / Kröper
Tokyo Quartet / Galway

I don't think that's all I have, but it's all I can put my hands on right now. If one likes modern instruments with Mozart, one could do a lot worse than that Tokyo/Galway disk.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Mozartflute.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/51g-tITQhqL.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/61Pxm4Z1gsL.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/71rNZxKJ3dL.jpg)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Amati Quartet - Fauré Op 113 Quartet in e for Strings 2nd mvmt - Andante
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on February 07, 2011, 10:31:48 PM
Sure. I only have a few, maybe 4 or 5. I bet Masolino has all 233 of them... :D

No I don't have all 233 of them  ::).  I have the Kuijken, the Les Adieux, and this one:

http://www.youtube.com/v/nOrNFAOL4-w




The Kuijken is one of my earliest purchased CDs: the 'booklet' is a sheet folded up like a handkerchief.  :D


Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 08, 2011, 05:25:16 AM
No I don't have all 233 of them  ::).  I have the Kuijken, the Les Adieux, and this one:

http://www.youtube.com/v/nOrNFAOL4-w




The Kuijken is one of my earliest purchased CDs: the 'booklet' is a sheet folded up like a handkerchief.  :D

0:)  That one looks good. Beznosiuk is a good flutist, I have admired some of her work before. Plus, I would delight to have a PI version of that Op 25 serenade. Cool!  :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 08, 2011, 05:57:05 AM
Beznosiuk is a good flutist, I have admired some of her work before.

I agree with you, Gurn. She is a good, a competent flutist; but not an amazing flutist, IMHO. 

Off-topic: Pavlo Beznosiuk has recorded on Linn Records a new version of Bach's Sonatas & Partitas for solo Violin. It's the 74th version this year.  ;D 

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61SzPWLzISL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on February 08, 2011, 11:51:16 AM
Chiara Banchini and her ensemble 415 have since not tackled any Mozart chamber music, and not much Boccherini even.  It's a shame.  We actually need more HIP recordings of the last 2 quintets, I think.


http://www.youtube.com/v/8JTKxdIKgv8


Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on February 13, 2011, 02:22:28 AM
A quick note for those interested in Viviana's Sofronitsky's account on period instruments: it has been reissued by the Dutch Et'cetera label. Undoubtedly improving availability and probably also price? (Saw a retail price of €45)

(http://www.etcetera-records.com/object.191.img.php?itemId=700)

http://www.etcetera-records.com/index.php?754

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on February 16, 2011, 12:01:13 PM
MJ Mengal's arrangement of Mozart K304 for wind quintet (plus Haydn Beethoven and Rossini movements)

http://www.youtube.com/v/b70mZ9WRVpQ


Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on February 16, 2011, 12:44:16 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/1LY3dqQUNLA

http://www.youtube.com/v/OOu8QACqGMs




On the programme are KV358, KV381, KV501, KV528 plus the fugue fragment KV401 should anyone feel interested. 

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 17, 2011, 05:19:28 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/1LY3dqQUNLA

http://www.youtube.com/v/OOu8QACqGMs




This one looks interesting, but the link doesn't work for me. Neither does removing the ASIN from the link and searching for that. Seems strange.... :-\  In any case, I like the 4 hand works, always looking for nicer performances. :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on February 17, 2011, 05:29:14 AM
This one looks interesting, but the link doesn't work for me. Neither does removing the ASIN from the link and searching for that. Seems strange.... :-\ 

It's available -- the pages exist in any case -- at the branches of Amazon in Timbuktu. ;D (.de, .fr and .co.uk)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 17, 2011, 05:37:01 AM
It's available -- the pages exist in any case -- at the branches of Amazon in Timbuktu. ;D (.de, .fr and .co.uk)

Ah, Timbuktu! Should have known. We used to make that joke using 'Malaysia' but not anymore, now it seems to be true... :D

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on February 17, 2011, 05:53:44 AM
Ah, Timbuktu! Should have known. We used to make that joke using 'Malaysia' but not anymore, now it seems to be true... :D

8)

I thought Amazon UK's customer service is located in India.   :)
Yes the Ayrton/Gluxam disc can be obtained from Amazon uk de fr etc. 
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mozart-Keyboard-works-four-hands/dp/B0000E6EIC for example.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 17, 2011, 05:57:20 AM
I thought Amazon UK's customer service is located in India.   :)
Yes the Ayrton/Gluxam disc can be obtained from Amazon uk de fr etc. 
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mozart-Keyboard-works-four-hands/dp/B0000E6EIC for example.

Good god! If it's in India, we'll never see it! :o

When I clicked the link, it took me to Amazon US, and then verbally abused and berated me for asking for something it didn't recognize. :D   

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 17, 2011, 03:06:18 PM
Ah, Timbuktu! Should have known. We used to make that joke using 'Malaysia' but not anymore, now it seems to be true... :D

In Spanish the joke also goes "Tumbuctú" (or more infrequently "Tombuctú")... But, we know, you Americans put the commas inside the quotation marks!  ;D  :D

P.S.: Do you have the 14-CD set of complete keyboard works by van Oort... or the volume XIII of Brilliant's Mozart Edition. There van Oort and Ursula Dütschler play some excellent versions of the 4 hand works.  :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 17, 2011, 03:57:57 PM
In Spanish the joke also goes "Tumbuctú" (or more infrequently "Tombuctú")... But, we know, you Americans put the commas inside the quotation marks!  ;D  :D

P.S.: Do you have the 14-CD set of complete keyboard works by van Oort... or the volume XIII of Brilliant's Mozart Edition. There van Oort and Ursula Dütschler play some excellent versions of the 4 hand works.  :)

Yes to volume 8. They are good, I agree. Have this one, too, which I rather like:



Still, I don't feel overly overwhelmed with versions of these works, given that I rather enjoy them. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Scottish National Orchestra / Neeme Jarvi - Rimsky-Korsakov Orchestral Suite from 'Le Coq d'Or'  pt 1 - Introduction and Dodon's sleep
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 17, 2011, 04:37:02 PM
Guys - although I do own a lot of Wolfie's music, I do not have any of these 4-hand keyboard works - so, how much of this music did he write, and where should one start in view of the many recommendations made in the recent posts; period instruments would certainly be my preference - so will await your thoughts -  :D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 17, 2011, 05:38:44 PM
Guys - although I do own a lot of Wolfie's music, I do not have any of these 4-hand keyboard works - so, how much of this music did he write, and where should one start in view of the many recommendations made in the recent posts; period instruments would certainly be my preference - so will await your thoughts -  :D

Dave,
There are just 4 sonatas that I can remember, K 381, 19d, 358, 521, and then some few other pieces, like the very nice K 501 Andante & 5 Variations in G. They would probably all fit on one disk, but I haven't run across one disk that has them all. That one that I pictured above is a nice start, although instead of all the 4 hand works, it has 2 solo sonatas that he dedicated to Nannerl instead. That's the theme, of course. The van Oort and Ursula Dütschler set that Antoine mentions has them all (well, it's the complete Mozart, after all  ::) ) on fortepiano, and that wonderful set that I've beat you up with before, The Soirée Chez les Jacquins has a super rendition of K 521 (which isn't on the Profil disk). You might find something better than any of these, but if you do, you better order 1 for me.... :D

8)

EDIT: Yes, 5 of course, I entirely forgot K 497   :-[   There are also a couple of works for 2 pianos, although they are less popular or well-known. :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on February 17, 2011, 11:48:17 PM
And there is this one:  :)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0794881834129.jpg)

Nearly 80 years after the invention of the fortepiano, the harpsichord was by no means relegated to antique status. On the contrary, the two instruments cohabited throughout the 18th century, to the point where several makers strove to combine them in a single entity! The most incredible of these 'mutants' is probably the extravagant Vis-à-vis built by Johann Andreas Stein in 1777: at one end there is a three-manual harpsichord, at the other a fortepiano with ‘moderator’ stop. Only two specimens of this instrument still exist today. With its extraordinarily wide range of timbres and dynamics, it enables Andreas Staier and Christine Schornsheim to renew our conception of Mozart's works for piano duet.

Apart from the unique instrument this is some fine Mozart playing! :)

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 18, 2011, 04:39:13 AM
Yes to volume 8. They are good, I agree. Have this one, too, which I rather like:



Still, I don't feel overly overwhelmed with versions of these works, given that I rather enjoy them. :)

On several ocassions, I have considered this one:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/21/cf/c7ea793509a0136580dc4110.L._AA300_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/215GYPS8ZEL._SS500_.jpg)
Mozart - Sonatas for Piano Duet (Complete)
Kocsis, Ránki, harpsichord, piano

It includes some harpsichord playing and the pieces on piano sound excellent.

Disc 1
Sonata for keyboard 4 hands in C major, K. 19d
Sonata for piano 4 hands in D major, K. 381
Sonata for piano 4 hands in B flat major, K. 358
Sonata for piano 4 hands in G major, K. 357 (Completed by J. Andre)

Disc 2
Sonata for piano 4 hands in F major, K. 497
Sonata for piano 4 hands in C major, K. 521

This set is quite hard to find, but there are some copies at the AMP:

http://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Sonata-Piano-Wolfgang-Amadeus/dp/B00000304D/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1298031721&sr=1-3

 :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on February 18, 2011, 05:31:29 AM

When I clicked the link, it took me to Amazon US, and then verbally abused and berated me for asking for something it didn't recognize. :D   

8)

No! You can't possibly mean that!  ;)  Well, it's an ORF recording which explains why it is more readily available in Europe.  But do consider the Aryton/Gluxam recording as I find quite a bit that is percussionistic in these four-hand sonatas, and that makes them sound particularly infectious and vivid when played on a cembalo/harpsichord!  :D

A harpsichord recording of 19d can also be heard on this rather nice disc, along with some other music from the same tradition:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51oE6YOqmNL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
http://www.amazon.com/Two-Play-Harpsichord-Music-Hands/dp/B00002639S

ps. What I wanted to say is amplified by the Amazon review for the recording above.  I quote: "Superb harpsichord music ... Mozart, Handel, J.C. Bach, Tomkins. Energizing, powerful, beautiful, skillful, gracious, clever, ominous ... listen stereophonically with headphones; listen in your car ... magnificent. I find it ubiquitously encompassing and exquisitely pleasing to my senses ... daemonic. Perfection."  Very good!  :)


Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 18, 2011, 05:34:39 AM
On several ocassions, I have considered this one:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/21/cf/c7ea793509a0136580dc4110.L._AA300_.jpg)

Mozart - Sonatas for Piano Duet (Complete)
Kocsis, Ránki, harpsichord, piano

It includes some harpsichord playing and the pieces on piano sound excellent.

Disc 1
Sonata for keyboard 4 hands in C major, K. 19d
Sonata for piano 4 hands in D major, K. 381
Sonata for piano 4 hands in B flat major, K. 358
Sonata for piano 4 hands in G major, K. 357 (Completed by J. Andre)

Disc 2
Sonata for piano 4 hands in F major, K. 497
Sonata for piano 4 hands in C major, K. 521

Thanks for that info, Antoine. I have seen this disk, but nothing in the very limited information in the entry leads one to believe that it might be PI. Especially not knowing the players.

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 18, 2011, 05:37:31 AM
Thanks Guys for all of the responses - there seems to be a LOT recorded but not easy to obtain, as usual -  :-\ :)  Dave
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 18, 2011, 05:38:47 AM
No! You can't possibly mean that!  ;)  Well, it's an ORF recording which explains why it is more readily available in Europe.  But do consider the Aryton/Gluxam recording as I find quite a bit that is percussionistic in these four-hand sonatas, and that makes them sound particularly infectious and vivid when played on a cembalo/harpsichord!  :D

A harpsichord recording of 19d can also be heard on this rather nice disc, along with some other music from the same tradition:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51oE6YOqmNL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
http://www.amazon.com/Two-Play-Harpsichord-Music-Hands/dp/B00002639S

That looks interesting too. I have a disk on cpo of JC Bach works for Keyboard 4 hands, I rather like it. Haydn also wrote a few pieces (Hob XVIIa) for 4 hand, they can be had on Schornsheim's set, and probably elsewhere although I haven't sen them. So there is a bit of a tradition in that period for the genre. :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 18, 2011, 05:53:21 AM
Thanks for that info, Antoine. I have seen this disk, but nothing in the very limited information in the entry leads one to believe that it might be PI. Especially not knowing the players.

Yes the info is very, very limited. I have listened to some tracks via NML, but I am confused, for instance, about the harpsichord used (if it is a harpsichord at all) because it sounds like those generic instruments from the fifties and sixties. Just one sonata is played on that instrument (K. 19d) and the remaining pieces are played on modern piano. Anyway, the interpretations are quite good.  :) 
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 18, 2011, 09:38:40 AM
Thanks Guys for all of the responses - there seems to be a LOT recorded but not easy to obtain, as usual -  :-\ :)  Dave

Well, in trying to look up some of the Piano Duets mentioned I came across the 2-CD set shown below which includes all of the works on the set w/ Kocsis - some excellent musicians from probably a ways back (not sure of the dates) nor the combination of instruments used - the Amzonian Reviews (http://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Music-Pianos-Piano-Duets/dp/B0000041EL/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1298050096&sr=1-1-spell) are quite good - has anyone heard this Philips Duo set?   :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41HMZ16FR6L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 18, 2011, 10:50:52 AM
Well, in trying to look up some of the Piano Duets mentioned I came across the 2-CD set shown below which includes all of the works on the set w/ Kocsis - some excellent musicians from probably a ways back (not sure of the dates) nor the combination of instruments used - the Amzonian Reviews (http://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Music-Pianos-Piano-Duets/dp/B0000041EL/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1298050096&sr=1-1-spell) are quite good - has anyone heard this Philips Duo set?   :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41HMZ16FR6L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Yes, they are all on modern instruments (even the Badura-Skoda!!) but that is not to say that they aren't very nice. They are all included in 2 other places: you saw that Complete Works for Keyboard, maybe 10 disks or so, by Ingrid Haebler? They are all in there. Also, in the Philips Complete Mozart Edition, they are all in there too. So this Duo has taken and made it easier to get just the 4 hand works. I have the Haebler box set, and I think they are just fine. I especially like Haebler; she may have played a modern piano, but she knew well how to play it in a discreet manner that works very well with Mozart. You wouldn't be disappointed unless you are totally committed to the PI concept. :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 18, 2011, 11:06:25 AM
Yes, they are all on modern instruments (even the Badura-Skoda!!)...

Sorry, but these days I am in a specially off-topic humor: Yesterday I saw his first complete cycle of Beethoven's piano sonatas (Gramola, 9-CD set), also played on a modern instrument (his famous Bosendorfer Imperial piano), for $47.65, VAT excl., on MDT. Just in case.  :)

http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//GRAM98742.htm


Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 18, 2011, 11:30:26 AM
Sorry, but these days I am in a specially off-topic humor: Yesterday I saw his first complete cycle of Beethoven's piano sonatas (Gramola, 9-CD set), also played on a modern instrument (his famous Bosendorfer Imperial piano), for $47.65, VAT excl., on MDT. Just in case.  :)

http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//GRAM98742.htm

Yes, Todd bought and nicely reviewed that set here somewhere. I suspect that I am much happier with my Astrée set on 38 (OK, just kidding) different instruments, but for modern piano folk, I understand it is pretty good. I also have a set (on EuropaDisk, IIRC) which doesn't even mention what instrument he plays the complete Mozart on, but it doesn't sound at all like his Schantz or Walter keyboards, it may even be a modern piano, as it is pretty resonant. I don't particularly like it, compared to the Naive set. :-\

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 18, 2011, 04:51:33 PM
Yes, Todd bought and nicely reviewed that set here somewhere. I suspect that I am much happier with my Astrée set on 38 (OK, just kidding) different instruments, but for modern piano folk, I understand it is pretty good. I also have a set (on EuropaDisk, IIRC) which doesn't even mention what instrument he plays the complete Mozart on, but it doesn't sound at all like his Schantz or Walter keyboards, it may even be a modern piano, as it is pretty resonant. I don't particularly like it, compared to the Naive set. :-\

It's true that Naïve set is excellent; but unfortunately and totally OOP. I hope it will be re-released at some point in the next years because I don't have the originals, just CD-R copies. Anyway, I don't have any problem listening to Beethoven's solo keyboard music played on modern piano which is not usually the case with Mozart and specially with Haydn. For me Haydn's keyboard music usually lose a great part of its life when it is played on modern piano. That's not the case with Beethoven at all. For instance, I have that excellent set recorded on Claves by Bilson and his former students (van Oort, Beghin, Dütschler, Meniker, Breitman and Willis) and several single discs on fortepiano, but I don't love that set or those single discs more than Annie Fischer or Arrau recordings. It's curious because I feel more decisive the period instruments even in Schubert (I feel, for instance, that Badura-Skoda and Bilson are totally revelatory in a way forbidden to modern instruments).   :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 18, 2011, 06:32:30 PM
It's true that Naïve set is excellent; but unfortunately and totally OOP. I hope it will be re-released at some point in the next years because I don't have the originals, just CD-R copies. Anyway, I don't have any problem listening to Beethoven's solo keyboard music played on modern piano which is not usually the case with Mozart and specially with Haydn. For me Haydn's keyboard music usually lose a great part of its life when it is played on modern piano. That's not the case with Beethoven at all. For instance, I have that excellent set recorded on Claves by Bilson and his former students (van Oort, Beghin, Dütschler, Meniker, Breitman and Willis) and several single discs on fortepiano, but I don't love that set or those single discs more than Annie Fischer or Arrau recordings. It's curious because I feel more decisive the period instruments even in Schubert (I feel, for instance, that Badura-Skoda and Bilson are totally revelatory in a way forbidden to modern instruments).   :)

Yes, that is true also for me, Antoine. I have many, many Beethoven disks on modern instrument and they somehow don't bother me nearly as much as the works of his <>contemporaries played that way. Still, that is not to say that a well played fortepiano doesn't please my ear more than a well-played modern instrument, no matter the pre-1840 composer. And despite all odds, I will take my Kempff recordings over many others, damn the critics! :D

This is the Mozart I am specifically talking about, despite that there are many flavors of it out there:



I didn't know it had gone extinct. I have Amazon telling me that I purchased it in September of 2008, not so very long ago. :-\

8)

----------------
Now playing:
USSR Symphony Orchestra / Svetlanov - Glazunov Op 16 Symphony #2 in f# 2nd mvmt - Andante
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on February 19, 2011, 01:32:07 AM

This is the Mozart I am specifically talking about, despite that there are many flavors of it out there:

I didn't know it had gone extinct. I have Amazon telling me that I purchased it in September of 2008, not so very long ago. :-\

8)

I have three of these discs (for the Viennese sonatas) in their first CD incarnation, on Astree-Auvidis label.  Those never quite strike me as being very good as sound engineering goes, with sort of a raw texture sticking out all over the place.   Wonder if the recordings were remastered for the re-release?  If so my impression may be due for a revision. 

Re: Staier's Mozart doesn't sound like it has been played on a fortepiano?  I am quite sure it is because his generally assertive interpretation perfectly matches a transcendental technique, which he has in abundance, although one also shouldn't overlook the fact that he prefers modern copies (e.g. his Anton Walter built by Monika May) than the less reliable originals in choice of instruments.
 
http://www.youtube.com/v/iTAT-Eboqn0
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on February 20, 2011, 02:28:19 PM
Robert Levin plays concerto in B-flat major with Hogwood conducting - ok sound quality, from youtube.  Many recognised faces in the orchestra where the (British part of the) world of HIP Mozart is concerned.  :)

http://www.youtube.com/v/ofB8A8KWil8







Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Scarpia on February 20, 2011, 04:05:47 PM
The notion occurred to me to get Hogwood's Mozart symphony cycle, but listening to excerpts, the brass and winds seem to be weak compared with the strings, although this is based on those maddeningly brief excerpts that can be heard online.  Comments?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Lethevich on February 20, 2011, 04:26:05 PM
I'm not sure I would describe them as weak, rather consciously balanced in ensemble. If anything I would feel that Hogwood might be considered a little un-refined/rough at times rather than underpowered, although naturally without turning the music into modern style brass-dominated music as even Mackerras did in his Linn recordings. No other set comes close to the Hogwood in terms of sheer interest - it has an amazing array of (not so) little extras which are fascinating to compare to the familiar numbered pieces. As usual Hogwood varies his instrumentation to what the works specify, and brilliantly avoids the feeling of one-size-fits-all which I tend to find with, say, Pinnock, when comparing performances both in Mozart and Haydn.

But this is just in case you don't get many replies to your question - the more classical period-focused members of the forum I am sure can offer stronger insight.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Scarpia on February 20, 2011, 05:17:02 PM
I'm not sure I would describe them as weak, rather consciously balanced in ensemble. If anything I would feel that Hogwood might be considered a little un-refined/rough at times rather than underpowered, although naturally without turning the music into modern style brass-dominated music as even Mackerras did in his Linn recordings. No other set comes close to the Hogwood in terms of sheer interest - it has an amazing array of (not so) little extras which are fascinating to compare to the familiar numbered pieces. As usual Hogwood varies his instrumentation to what the works specify, and brilliantly avoids the feeling of one-size-fits-all which I tend to find with, say, Pinnock, when comparing performances both in Mozart and Haydn.

But this is just in case you don't get many replies to your question - the more classical period-focused members of the forum I am sure can offer stronger insight.

Thanks for your comments!  I have Mackerras's Telarc set, which I like a lot.  (I've heard some of the newer recordings from Mac and I don't think they measure up.)  I also have Harnoncourt's Concertebouw recordings, and I can't imagine anything bettering those in musical terms.  But I feel an inclination to have an HIP set.  Hogwood definitely has the nasal woodwind and brass tone going for him but I worry he might be too polite.  Pinnock is out of the question - the sewing maching approach doesn't work for me.  Koopman did a set, but it doesn't seem to have made into the box-set universe.  Bruggen did some too (sometimes I forget Bruggen and Koopman are distinct people).   Hogwood seems to have the most going for him at the moment.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 20, 2011, 05:25:35 PM
The notion occurred to me to get Hogwood's Mozart symphony cycle, but listening to excerpts, the brass and winds seem to be weak compared with the strings, although this is based on those maddeningly brief excerpts that can be heard online.  Comments?

Well, please don't criticize Hogwood in this regard. He isn't being perverse at all. But look at the original scoring of any of these works:

K 183 (173dB) Symphony #25 in g minor:  2 oboes, 2 bassoons, 4 horns and strings (most likely 4-4-2-2-1). And I know for a fact that he plays it this way.

K 201 (186a)  Symphony #29 in A major: 2 oboes, 2 horns and strings (again, most likely 4-4-2-2-1).

So they are gonna sound 'light' compared to even the wonderful modern instrument recordings of Mackerras, who most certainly used more players than that. I invested full retail in that set about 10 years ago and have not a single regret. Take sime getting used to, but that's our fault, not Hogwood's. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Costantino Mastroprimiano - Clementi Op 26 Sonata in F 2nd mvmt - Rondeau: Allegretto
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Scarpia on February 20, 2011, 06:51:28 PM
Well, please don't criticize Hogwood in this regard. He isn't being perverse at all. But look at the original scoring of any of these works:

K 183 (173dB) Symphony #25 in g minor:  2 oboes, 2 bassoons, 4 horns and strings (most likely 4-4-2-2-1). And I know for a fact that he plays it this way.

K 201 (186a)  Symphony #29 in A major: 2 oboes, 2 horns and strings (again, most likely 4-4-2-2-1).

So they are gonna sound 'light' compared to even the wonderful modern instrument recordings of Mackerras, who most certainly used more players than that. I invested full retail in that set about 10 years ago and have not a single regret. Take sime getting used to, but that's our fault, not Hogwood's. :)

Ok.    My notion is that the string section is smaller, so the wind section can come to the fore more than in your typical Karajan recording.  On top of that the winds have a more delicate sound, but so do the strings playing gut instruments, so again winds should be a bit more prominent than in a typical non-HIP performance.  But here is the question.  Given the resources, does Hogwood let the brass play all-out at appropriate moments?  That is what led me to fall in love with Harnoncourt's recordings.  He actually gives the brass the green light to play to the limit at times.

[In the mean time, they jacked up the price on Amazon.]   :-\
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on February 21, 2011, 01:14:33 AM
Hogwood seems to have the most going for him at the moment.

Hogwood's set is most 'complete' (including plenty of addenda) in any case, although the core of it (later symphonies) was recorded the earliest and may seem the strangest when listened to in comparison to others in the field in terms of performing style, balance, etc. 
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 21, 2011, 05:30:59 AM
Ok.    My notion is that the string section is smaller, so the wind section can come to the fore more than in your typical Karajan recording.  On top of that the winds have a more delicate sound, but so do the strings playing gut instruments, so again winds should be a bit more prominent than in a typical non-HIP performance.  But here is the question.  Given the resources, does Hogwood let the brass play all-out at appropriate moments? That is what led me to fall in love with Harnoncourt's recordings.  He actually gives the brass the green light to play to the limit at times.

[In the mean time, they jacked up the price on Amazon.]   :-\

And the short answer to that question: I don't know, amigo. To me, they play appropriately at all times. The only PI recordings I have to judge them against are Pinnock's (other than the last ones, of course, which every old horn in the world has taken a blow at ::) ). And to me, there is no question that they play much more colorfully than the English Concert in these disks (despite that I like the EC, they get blown away here). A lot of this has to come from adjusting your mindset (ear set?) to the fact that in this context, there is no 'weight of the orchestra' by our standards. I was reading an excellent essay on Haydn's reception just last week. The term 'sublime' comes up in a couple of spots, and its usage there is based on the fact that his entire orchestra was playing full out suddenly. Well, the author was quick to point out that the entire orchestra for that work was 19 people, and when played identically today it makes little or no impression at all, and yet writers from the time are quite amazed at the din that was created at that particular point. It wouldn't have been any different with Mozart. :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Scarpia on February 21, 2011, 08:13:02 AM
And the short answer to that question: I don't know, amigo. To me, they play appropriately at all times. The only PI recordings I have to judge them against are Pinnock's (other than the last ones, of course, which every old horn in the world has taken a blow at ::) ). And to me, there is no question that they play much more colorfully than the English Concert in these disks (despite that I like the EC, they get blown away here). A lot of this has to come from adjusting your mindset (ear set?) to the fact that in this context, there is no 'weight of the orchestra' by our standards. I was reading an excellent essay on Haydn's reception just last week. The term 'sublime' comes up in a couple of spots, and its usage there is based on the fact that his entire orchestra was playing full out suddenly. Well, the author was quick to point out that the entire orchestra for that work was 19 people, and when played identically today it makes little or no impression at all, and yet writers from the time are quite amazed at the din that was created at that particular point. It wouldn't have been any different with Mozart. :)

To make a long story short, I ordered it.  I received a Borders 33% coupon and got a $40 discount on the set, which put it substantially below Amazon's best deal.   :o  Problem it, it is "backordered" so I have to wonder whether more copies really exist at the distributor, and if Borders will remain in business long enough to ship it.   I can always cancel, in any case.  This set seems to be dwindling (not widely listed and most sites report it is out of stock).  The question, is it about to vanish from the market, or is it about to be reissued as super-bargain?  In any case, I have my chips on the board and the wheel is spinning.   ;D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 03, 2011, 06:00:59 PM
Thanks for that info, Antoine. I have seen this disk, but nothing in the very limited information in the entry leads one to believe that it might be PI. Especially not knowing the players.

Gurn & Antonie et al - I am curious about the disc below, i.e. w/ Kocsis & Ranki playing the Mozart Keyboard Duets - these are being offered at ClassicsOnline (http://www.classicsonline.com/catalogue/product.aspx?pid=226064) for $20, but I'm reluctant for several reasons: 1) the instruments used, would prefer harpsichord and/or fortepiano; and 2) not sure of the quality of the performances (these are 1978 recordings, Kocsis was quite young and I mainly own recordings of him in more 'modern' works, such as Bartok) - so, would be quite interested in the opinions offered concerning these performances - Dave  :D


(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/21/cf/c7ea793509a0136580dc4110.L._AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2011, 06:38:15 PM
Gurn & Antonie et al - I am curious about the disc below, i.e. w/ Kocsis & Ranki playing the Mozart Keyboard Duets - these are being offered at ClassicsOnline (http://www.classicsonline.com/catalogue/product.aspx?pid=226064) for $20, but I'm reluctant for several reasons: 1) the instruments used, would prefer harpsichord and/or fortepiano; and 2) not sure of the quality of the performances (these are 1978 recordings, Kocsis was quite young and I mainly own recordings of him in more 'modern' works, such as Bartok) - so, would be quite interested in the opinions offered concerning these performances - Dave  :D


(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/21/cf/c7ea793509a0136580dc4110.L._AA300_.jpg)

Dave,
It was hard to spot in there, but I asked that same question; this from Antoine:

Yes the info is very, very limited. I have listened to some tracks via NML, but I am confused, for instance, about the harpsichord used (if it is a harpsichord at all) because it sounds like those generic instruments from the fifties and sixties. Just one sonata is played on that instrument (K. 19d) and the remaining pieces are played on modern piano. Anyway, the interpretations are quite good.  :)

So that's that. I would rec that one on Profil as a nice starter. I enjoy it a lot. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Ensemble Sans Souci Berlin - Hob 11 82 Divertimento á tre in D for Flute (Baryton), Violin (Viola) & Cello 3rd mvmt - Menuetto: Allegro
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: FideLeo on March 06, 2011, 03:18:28 AM
Viviana Sofronitzki plays the d minor concerto, first movement.  She improvises the cadenza, rather unsatisfactorily I must say.
 
http://www.youtube.com/v/Q2YAaNrtdF4



Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 13, 2011, 08:04:41 AM
Look at this my little friends:  ;D

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41QJtdoEpyL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Quote
INFORMATION
The four-hand repertoire was certainly not popular during the period that the young Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart and his slightly older sister Nannerl would be placed behind a clavier to entertain audiences with four-hand music. Mozart wrote five duet Sonatas and several separate works for pianoforte four-hand. On this CD, the four-hand pieces are Mozart’s two last and most monumental sonatas. They explore the limits of the pianoforte, both literally and regarding sound volume. Mozart did not shy away from giving both players an independent and often complicated and technically demanding part.

Sonata in F, K. 497:Mozart’s way of exploiting the opportunities inherent in the four-hand repertoire was pioneering and led to impressive results. This sonata reminds one not only of his symphonic music and operas but also his sometimes highly virtuosic pieces and concertos for pianoforte.

Sonata in C K 521: Instead of the tight interweaving of the four hands of K 497, this sonata establishes a more competitive relationship
between the two performers. Many are the passages where they
imitate each other (with deviations).

The Sonata in D K 448 similar to the K 521 sonata. Here, too, scores of virtuosic figures are passed back and forth by the performers.
(Source: linernotes of the CD 'Sonatas for four hands'- Il Pulcini - Marie & Veronika Kuijken)

Challenge website (http://www.challenge.nl/product/1225098282)

This link (http://www.allegro-music.com/online_catalog.asp?sku_tag=CHR3SACD72363) is for Gurn & Dave.  ;D

 8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2011, 08:11:22 AM
Antoine,
Coolness! Gracias. Actually, I pre-ordered it at Amazon instead:



April 12 is not that far away. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
London SO \ Haitink - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 3rd mvmt - Adagio molto e cantabile
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 13, 2011, 08:20:24 AM



April 12 is not that far away. :)

Allegro is probably more expensive without Amazon's free shipping... But they have the thing in stock right now!  :D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Grazioso on March 13, 2011, 09:24:03 AM
Good Heavens, the Kuijken clan is like a HIP army! They're daughters of Sigiswald, it turns out. I wonder if uncles Barthold and Wieland have brought us any period-instrument progeny...
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 13, 2011, 09:42:56 AM
Good Heavens, the Kuijken clan is like a HIP army! They're daughters of Sigiswald, it turns out. I wonder if uncles Barthold and Wieland have brought us any period-instrument progeny...

Yes, Wieland and his son Piet, an accomplished keyboardist.
(http://www2.odn.ne.jp/~cco69970/index.html/fukuoka8/Photo/1Concerts/IMG_3740-.jpg)

They even recorded a beautiful version of Bach's gamba sonatas, with Piet Kuijken playing the harpsichord.
(http://pixhost.info/avaxhome/7d/ab/000bab7d_medium.jpeg)

And recently was released a disc where he plays Schumann on pianoforte:
(http://cdn.7static.com/static/img/sleeveart/00/007/047/0000704770_350.jpg)

 :)

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 13, 2011, 09:55:13 AM
Antoine - thanks for all of the information & links on the talented Kuijken family - will put that disc on my 'wish list'!  Dave  :D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: jlaurson on March 13, 2011, 11:02:21 AM
How incredibly awesome is this!?!?!


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0044ZQ8TE.01.L.jpg)
W.G. Mozart (1756 – 1791),
Keyboard Music v.2
Sonata K.330, Rondo K.511, Adagio K.540 et al.
Kristian Bezuidenhout
McNulty copy of an Anton Walter & Sohn (~1802)
Harmonia Mundi
 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0044ZQ8TE/goodmusicguide-20)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: The new erato on April 07, 2011, 11:38:32 AM
Beware! The Hurwitzer is on the prowl again:


WOLFGANG AMADEUS MOZART
Piano Concertos Nos. 9 "Jeunehomme" & 12
Ronald Brautigam (fortepiano)

Die Kölner Akademie

Michael Alexander Willens

BIS- 1794(SACD)

Ugly is as ugly sounds. Here is yet another barfalicious period instrument ensemble--amateur hour masquerading as scholarship. Brautigam is a fine artist, usually, but he's been let down time and again by his accompanists. Remember his powerful Beethoven concertos paired with Andrew Parrott's anorexic accompaniments? Well, at least Parrott had a real orchestra. These guys make Parrott sound positively voluptuous. Truth be told, though, Brautigam is equally to blame for this disaster. His fortepiano sounds as miserable, in its way, as the orchestral strings--scant sustaining power, little possibility of lyricism or a true legato (which we know Mozart craved), and Brautigam compensates with an excess of ornamentation that comes across as mere noodling. The damage is particularly serious in the slow movement of the "Jeunehomme" Concerto, which turns into 10 minutes of torture. Enough already. This is yet another triumph of pedantry over musicality.


--David Hurwitz



Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 07, 2011, 12:11:39 PM
I would like to see in writing that Mozart 'craved' a true legato. I think he is totally mixing up Mozart with Beethoven, who actually did want plenty of real legato. In the volumes of Mozart that I have read, I didn't note any particular craving for legato.

Not to say the band may not suck, I thought the Parrott/Beethoven did. :-\  Wonder if Brautigam is discerning enough about who he crawls into bed with, so to speak. He is a high enough ranking artist to just say no if he wants to... :(

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on April 13, 2011, 02:22:09 PM
I wanted to post that I like that Jacobs recording of the 39th and 40th.  The best I've heard, not as stuffy/stately as the mi recordings I've heard but not an absurd mad dash either.  It sounds almost Beethovenian, but nuanced in that elegant Mozartian dance like way that Jacobs seems to know better than most.



Thanks to the several posters that rec'd it to me a few months back! :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Mandryka on April 13, 2011, 10:15:07 PM
I wanted to post that I like that Jacobs recording of the 39th and 40th.  The best I've heard, not as stuffy/stately as the mi recordings I've heard but not an absurd mad dash either.  It sounds almost Beethovenian, but nuanced in that elegant Mozartian dance like way that Jacobs seems to know better than most.



Thanks to the several posters that rec'd it to me a few months back! :)

"Seldom has so much obvious talent and skill resulted in such unstylish, even  perverse results. The Freiburger Barockorchester continues to impress as the  ugliest ensemble, tonally speaking, on disc. . . . It's played with little or no vibrato, all of its repeats, and is so  inexpressive and mechanically paced, so far removed from period style, heck,  from basic musicality, that it's shocking. Listening is a punishment."

David Hurwitz at http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=12644 -- my italics.

Put aside judgements of taste for the moment. There are people who post here, I think, who have thought about authentic practice in Mozart. I'd like to understand more. What do you think of Hurwitz's claim that Jacobs's interpretation is  far removed from period style?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: czgirb on April 13, 2011, 10:29:18 PM
Just bought the Ronald Brautigam Piano Sonatas set a few months ago, and have the Piano Concertos w/ Bilson & Gardiner in the mail - should arrive early next week, if not sooner.

But, looking forward to other recommendations -  :D

(http://ec2.images-amazon.com/images/P/B0000016P2.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg) 

What is your opinion regarding to Ronald Brautigam, Sonic Man?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on April 14, 2011, 04:11:56 AM
What do you think of Hurwitz's claim that Jacobs's interpretation is  far removed from period style?

He means Jacobs' "manipulation of dynamics" which is what I described as "nuanced in that elegant Mozartian dance like way that Jacobs seems to know better than most". 

If you don't care for what Jacobs does then you will dislike the recording, else you'll like it.  It's not all over the place, these strange changes are in a select few places.  And I think it makes the recording unique. 

The thing is that Hurwitz is wrong to label that as anti-PI.  It's the modern style of performing that lavishes undo attention to literal playing of the score.  PIons know and expect that the composers in the baroque and classical era expected the performers to bring their own character to the music.

If you like golden era performers for their personal stamp on the music, then Mandryka you should have no problem with how Jacobs approaches Mozart. :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 14, 2011, 04:21:11 AM
Unfortunately, I have about 3 minutes before I must leave for an extended training session, but I will put this out there for Mandryka as an idea, and if Hurwitz is still scouring the Web to read my stuff, then for him, too. :)

One of the main knocks against 'HIP' has been, since the first, that it suffered from literal interpretation of the score, metronomic application of tempos, no note that wasn't written down etc.. Of course, anyone who has followed the PI movement with more than passing interest knows that this stereotype disappeared 15 or more years ago, but never mind that, we can perpetuate it anyway.

So now, you see a much more authentic performance in which liberties are taken with "standard, traditional" tempos, and some parts of some works are played in a totally different way than ones expectations would dictate. So now, that performance is twisted too! Hurwith is in love with the sound of his own 'voice', and the things he has written in that quote, Mandryka, are so totally off that I have my doubts that he has ever even heard these disks. When it comes to period performance, Hurwitz is the last person on my list to check with, since everything I have read by him about it has been diametrically opposed to what my own ears tell me. :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 14, 2011, 05:56:18 AM
What is your opinion regarding to Ronald Brautigam, Sonic Man?

My word! That is indeed an old post brought forward! - I've not listened to that set in a while, and have also added another w/ Alexei Lubimov of the fortepiano (own 2 other sets on modern piano - but I prefer the PI recordings).

So, just popped in the last discs of each set and listening to the No. 15 & 16 Piano Sonatas.  Brautigam plays on a Paul McNulty fortepiano built in 1992, after an Anton Walter original, ca. 1795; while Lubimov performs on an instrument (for these works) by Christopher Clarke (1986) based on one by Anton Walter, ca. 1795; recordings dates are 1996 & 1990, respectively.

Brautigam offers a spirited and dynamic performance; his allegros can be explosive at times, but the slow movements are played w/ grace and a steady melodic line.  The fortepiano is in excellent condition and is superbly recorded; the struck notes are clearly heard and jump out from the speakers.  If you want a fortepiano set of these works (and like the instrument), then this set should not disappoint, if found at the right price!

Lubimov is also outstanding, not as dynamic or percussive in the allegros, but notes are all clear and precise; he does use a number of different fortepianos but on these works, the instrument described above is in great condition, well tuned, and recorded just as well.  I have no problem in recommending either of these PI sets. But please read the other comments earlier in this thread - plenty made on Brautigam and to a lesser extent on Lubimov, as I remember.  Good luck in your selection(s).


(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/MozatBrautigam/1135372157_KcLBg-O.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/MozartLubimov/1131138489_NfUGF-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Mandryka on April 14, 2011, 11:58:21 AM
Thanks for replying about Jacob's authenticity -- I think I am starting to understand.

I got the CD with 39 today. I know the CD with 38 and 41. I can certainly hear some dynamic shading in  38 which I don't hear in other performances.

There are some memorable sonic effects in the 38 == an astonishing trumpet blast in the opening adagio which sounds just like the last judgement. And some memorable dynamic contrasts:  at one point the music sounds like an echo. It's a romp. Haydnfan says the 39 is not an "absurd mad dash"; will the 38 primo  comes close,  IMO.

On the emotional level, his Prague seems pretty shallow to me. Nuanced dynamically, yes. Nuanced emotionally, no. Compared with Harnoncourt's on the Bartolli DVD, Jacobs is shallow. And that's just thinking HIP. If not, there's Klemperer's and Maag's too.

I'll listen to the 39 and 40 tomorrow if I get time.


Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Scarpia on April 14, 2011, 12:04:09 PM
One of the main knocks against 'HIP' has been, since the first, that it suffered from literal interpretation of the score, metronomic application of tempos, no note that wasn't written down etc.. Of course, anyone who has followed the PI movement with more than passing interest knows that this stereotype disappeared 15 or more years ago, but never mind that, we can perpetuate it anyway.

Actually, Harnoncourt, one of the originators of the HIP movement, always expounded his view that in early music the score was considered an outline rather than a definition of the performance and that the performer was expected to embellish according to custom.  The rigid, "sewing machine" school came from the imitators like Pinnock, and I tend to agree with those who label him as "unmusical."
 
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 14, 2011, 12:21:04 PM
Actually, Harnoncourt, one of the originators of the HIP movement, always expounded his view that in early music the score was considered an outline rather than a definition of the performance and that the performer was expected to embellish according to custom.  The rigid, "sewing machine" school came from the imitators like Pinnock, and I tend to agree with those who label him as "unmusical."

Well, I'm not saying that the performances were done that way, I'm merely reporting back what I have read ad infinitum. Pinnock is an excellent harpsichordist.  But I have Jacobs' Mozart symphonies disks, and also "...Figaro" and "Cosi fan tutte", and I find his flexibility in dynamics both interesting and artful.

I am not pleading any cause here when I say that if you had been alive in 1790 and traveling around Europe listening to music (although not many people were doing that other than Burney), I fully expect that if you happened to hear the same Mozart (or any other) symphony in 2 different cities, that you would have found most major elements of tempo and dynamics done differently enough for you to easily notice it. If you made the same trip in 1960, I strongly suspect that this would not be true. If a performance is only acceptable when it fits into someone's (OK, Hurwitz's) preconception of how it should sound, then why in hell even bother to listen to it? Just put on that old Furtwängler CD and kick back... ::)

That's what I'm on about. :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on April 14, 2011, 12:26:32 PM
There are some memorable sonic effects in the 38 == an astonishing trumpet blast in the opening adagio which sounds just like the last judgement. And some memorable dynamic contrasts:  at one point the music sounds like an echo. It's a romp. Haydnfan says the 39 is not an "absurd mad dash"; will the 38 primo  comes close,  IMO.

Yeah I think that the 38+41 disc does feature some swift playing, I do think he takes the 39 and 40 at a slower pace (which aggravated Hurwitz) but honestly they are weighty symphonies and shouldn't be played at lightning speed.  That being said many of the MI recordings I've heard are slower, so Jacobs is not exactly playing at Bohm or DG Bernstein speed, he's just not whipping through the 39th or 40th with typical PI zeal.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 14, 2011, 12:28:44 PM
Thanks for replying about Jacob's authenticity -- I think I am starting to understand.

I got the CD with 39 today. I know the CD with 38 and 41. I can certainly hear some dynamic shading in  38 which I don't hear in other performances.

There are some memorable sonic effects in the 38 == an astonishing trumpet blast in the opening adagio which sounds just like the last judgement. And some memorable dynamic contrasts:  at one point the music sounds like an echo. It's a romp. Haydnfan says the 39 is not an "absurd mad dash"; will the 38 primo  comes close,  IMO.

On the emotional level, his Prague seems pretty shallow to me. Nuanced dynamically, yes. Nuanced emotionally, no. Compared with Harnoncourt's on the Bartolli DVD, Jacobs is shallow. And that's just thinking HIP. If not, there's Klemperer's and Maag's too.

I'll listen to the 39 and 40 tomorrow if I get time.

Well, I'm no authority (nor claim to be), I am just very open-minded about performance and I like it when not every performance sounds the same. We shouldn't have to look for where the 3rd horn slipped a lip in order to have something different going on.

If 38 seems like a mad dash, then let me ask you a question. If, when it was written, that was the tempo it was played at (not saying it was, just hypothesizing), and then later on it was slowed down, maybe because there were now 3 or 4 times more musicians in the band, and that is the way that you first heard it, then even though the first way sounds like a mad dash to you, does that make it less right?  Isn't it more a question of accepting a performance on its own merit than it is to validate it by how closely it conforms to what we are used to?  I think this is a legitimate question to ask ourselves when confronted with a performance that is outside the norm. Clearly Hurwitz can't do it. But that is far more a failing on his part than it is on Jacobs and the FBO. :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Scarpia on April 14, 2011, 12:30:59 PM
Well, I'm not saying that the performances were done that way, I'm merely reporting back what I have read ad infinitum. Pinnock is an excellent harpsichordist.  But I have Jacobs' Mozart symphonies disks, and also "...Figaro" and "Cosi fan tutte", and I find his flexibility in dynamics both interesting and artful.

I am not pleading any cause here when I say that if you had been alive in 1790 and traveling around Europe listening to music (although not many people were doing that other than Burney), I fully expect that if you happened to hear the same Mozart (or any other) symphony in 2 different cities, that you would have found most major elements of tempo and dynamics done differently enough for you to easily notice it. If you made the same trip in 1960, I strongly suspect that this would not be true. If a performance is only acceptable when it fits into someone's (OK, Hurwitz's) preconception of how it should sound, then why in hell even bother to listen to it? Just put on that old Furtwängler CD and kick back... ::)

That's what I'm on about. :)

8)

When you said above that the stereotype died out 15 years ago that seemed to imply that the rigid style of HIP playing itself died out (i.e., Pinnock).  It seems hard to interpret your remark as meaning that the stereotype itself died out since, as you said subsequently, the stereotype is still with us. 
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 14, 2011, 01:35:10 PM
When you said above that the stereotype died out 15 years ago that seemed to imply that the rigid style of HIP playing itself died out (i.e., Pinnock).  It seems hard to interpret your remark as meaning that the stereotype itself died out since, as you said subsequently, the stereotype is still with us.

Well, to be clear, what I am saying is that the rigid playing is essentially gone, but the idea of it lingers on. I can't really speak much to Pinnock specifically, because I can't remember anything in my library by him that is recent. Maybe some Vivaldi? But there are plenty of others out there, like Minkowski and Jacobs, and one can't honestly say that they are 'metronomic' at all. Still hear the canard though... :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Mandryka on April 14, 2011, 09:10:44 PM
Well, I'm no authority (nor claim to be), I am just very open-minded about performance and I like it when not every performance sounds the same. We shouldn't have to look for where the 3rd horn slipped a lip in order to have something different going on.

If 38 seems like a mad dash, then let me ask you a question. If, when it was written, that was the tempo it was played at (not saying it was, just hypothesizing), and then later on it was slowed down, maybe because there were now 3 or 4 times more musicians in the band, and that is the way that you first heard it, then even though the first way sounds like a mad dash to you, does that make it less right?  Isn't it more a question of accepting a performance on its own merit than it is to validate it by how closely it conforms to what we are used to?  I think this is a legitimate question to ask ourselves when confronted with a performance that is outside the norm. Clearly Hurwitz can't do it. But that is far more a failing on his part than it is on Jacobs and the FBO. :)

8)

I don't mind the fact that it's fast at all. In fact I rather like fast performances. My real criticism is that it's expressively limited compared with other readings (Harnoncourt's DVD for example)

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 14, 2011, 11:08:47 PM
A question for you HIPsters. If I wanted to hear late Mozart symphonies with the clarity and zip of HIP combined with the drama and punch of the traditional approach, what recording(s) would you suggest?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on April 15, 2011, 03:22:57 AM
A question for you HIPsters. If I wanted to hear late Mozart symphonies with the clarity and zip of HIP combined with the drama and punch of the traditional approach, what recording(s) would you suggest?

Either one by Mackerras, perhaps? The Telarc (as opposed to the Linn) ones have harpsichords in place for even the later symphonies. And the Telarc has a LOT of repeats.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 15, 2011, 03:28:03 AM
A question for you HIPsters. If I wanted to hear late Mozart symphonies with the clarity and zip of HIP combined with the drama and punch of the traditional approach, what recording(s) would you suggest?

Give me a little while to mull that one, Walter. Maybe someone else has an idea right off the top of their head, but for the moment I don't.  To some extent, Romantic drama and Classical expression are a bit antithetical, so a great, recommendable blend of them is going to be a rare animal. :)   Have you ever listened to the Mackerras/Prague cycle? It is highly recommendable, and possibly just for the elements you seem to seek.



Mackerras is no Böhm, but in this case, that's a good thing. :D

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 15, 2011, 03:28:51 AM
Either one by Mackerras, perhaps? The Telarc (as opposed to the Linn) ones have harpsichords in place for even the later symphonies. And the Telarc has a LOT of repeats.

Great minds, Navneeth...  0:)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 15, 2011, 03:33:17 AM
  Have you ever listened to the Mackerras/Prague cycle? It is highly recommendable, and possibly just for the elements you seem to seek.

Gurn, I haven't, but the thought of harpsichords in late WAM and all repeats rigorously observed does not exactly appeal to me...how about the Linn recordings?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 15, 2011, 03:38:06 AM
I don't mind the fact that it's fast at all. In fact I rather like fast performances. My real criticism is that it's expressively limited compared with other readings (Harnoncourt's DVD for example)

OK, well I guess that is an aspect that I probably don't look for. I am trying to understand that, so bear with me please. Do you mean it is lacking in dramatic impact? I can tell you that no period performance is going to have the drama of a post-Romantic style of performance because that is exactly the layered on, after-market (so to speak) accessory that period performance developed to try to shed off. These works were not steeped in Romantic drama at their conception. The fact that they acquired it during the 2 centuries following, and many people love them that way, does not make them Romantic in any case. I'm not being at all judgmental here, one likes what one likes and no apologies required. But I think that if you approach period performance with the expectation that it will satisfy that particular aspect of your preferences, then you are doomed to failure since it is expressly trying not to!   :)

Or maybe you mean something else altogether and I am off-base. :-\

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 15, 2011, 03:42:05 AM
Gurn, I haven't, but the thought of harpsichords in late WAM and all repeats rigorously observed does not exactly appeal to me...how about the Linn recordings?

Well, just as an aside, I have listened to those disks 30 or 40 times and the fact that they had harpsichord continuo was news to me. Just sayin'...

The Linn recordings are more controversial for some reason. I have read diverse reactions here about them. I like them, FWIW, but not sure the Scots have quite the punch or the natural feeling for the works that the Czechs have. If you can listen to a sample of those Prague works, you can hear the quality of the ensemble. It is consistent throughout. Also, the disks are sold separately.... :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 15, 2011, 03:43:43 AM
... To some extent, Romantic drama and Classical expression are a bit antithetical, so a great, recommendable blend of them is going to be a rare animal. :)   Have you ever listened to the Mackerras/Prague cycle? It is highly recommendable, and possibly just for the elements you seem to seek.

It's an improbable animal, indeed. Maybe Jeanette Sorrell and her Apollo's Fire?



Just a handful of Mozart, but very interesting and exciting:

http://www.apollosfire.org/cds/cds.html
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on April 15, 2011, 04:18:28 AM
A question for you HIPsters. If I wanted to hear late Mozart symphonies with the clarity and zip of HIP combined with the drama and punch of the traditional approach, what recording(s) would you suggest?

I reject the assumption that only the traditional approach has drama and only the HIP approach offers clarity.  Try Szell anyway.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: karlhenning on April 15, 2011, 04:21:03 AM
Yes, the BSO is hardly a HIP outfit, but they have delivered perfectly clear Haydn and Mozart to my recent-ish hearing.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 15, 2011, 05:52:27 AM
I reject the assumption that only the traditional approach has drama and only the HIP approach offers clarity.

So do I - which is why I asked  :)

Quote
  Try Szell anyway.

Maybe I should. I love the old Bruno Walter recordings, but they're not the only way to go.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Mandryka on April 15, 2011, 08:11:03 AM
A question for you HIPsters. If I wanted to hear late Mozart symphonies with the clarity and zip of HIP combined with the drama and punch of the traditional approach, what recording(s) would you suggest?

Well, you could start with Harnoncourt's DVD 38; Harnoncourt's 40;  Brueggen's Linz symphony; Brueggen's Two Orchestras Jupiter ; Minkowski's 41; the new live 41 from Gardiner. I also like Kocsis in 40 very much -- but maybe not HIP enough for what you're looking for.

I need to think about 39 more! This is a symphony which is dominated by nonHIP for me -- Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw and Furtwangler  -- there must be good HIP ones though.

I don't understand this Szell love in -- I listened to his Jupiter a few weeks ago and I thought it was colourless and cold. Compared with Klemperer's beautiful mono 41 on Testament and the HIPs I mentioned above Szell doesn't stand a chance in my opinion.

I'm also not so crazy about Mackerras -- though there are some nice things on the Prague set (like 38) and there are some nice things from the earlier symphonies on the Scottish one. He developed a pretty cold style towards his later years in my opinion -- I remember some very dry concerts in London (a particularly excruciating Fidelio and some very poor Brahms). Those Linn recordings just bear out my judgement about the lives.

Having said that, on the Linn there is a superb 29.

Thanks for the reply Gurn -- give a day or so to respond :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Mandryka on April 17, 2011, 11:48:30 PM
OK, well I guess that is an aspect that I probably don't look for. I am trying to understand that, so bear with me please. Do you mean it is lacking in dramatic impact? I can tell you that no period performance is going to have the drama of a post-Romantic style of performance because that is exactly the layered on, after-market (so to speak) accessory that period performance developed to try to shed off. These works were not steeped in Romantic drama at their conception. The fact that they acquired it during the 2 centuries following, and many people love them that way, does not make them Romantic in any case. I'm not being at all judgmental here, one likes what one likes and no apologies required. But I think that if you approach period performance with the expectation that it will satisfy that particular aspect of your preferences, then you are doomed to failure since it is expressly trying not to!   :)

Or maybe you mean something else altogether and I am off-base. :-\

8)

Part of the problem I'm having in responding is that I don't understand classical style.

Tell me Gurn,  what do you think of Harnoncourt's DVD of the Prague Symphony? Is that authentic classical style or does it have the drama layered on?

Let me give you an example. At around 10min 30 secs into the first movement there is a very dramatic and turbulent passage -- full of angst. And then the music suddenly becomes sadder, more introspective, less outwardly agitated, for a short time.

Harnoncourt brings out the drama -- the turbulence -- of that moment like no one else I know. Not even Otto Klemperer or Peter Maag are quite so dramatic at that point. There are plenty of other moments I could cite in that first movement. There is for instance a passage which lasts for a few seconds which is full of sadness, unbearable sadness, at about 15min 26.

Is this variety of emotion, this changing dramatic, affective landscape, an "after-market (so to speak) accessory"?I always thought that Harnoncourt was sympathetic to historical performance.

You may not have the recording. I can always upload it on to goear if you want to hear it.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on April 18, 2011, 06:01:07 AM
Is this variety of emotion, this changing dramatic, affective landscape, an "after-market (so to speak) accessory"?I always thought that Harnoncourt was sympathetic to historical performance.

You may not have the recording. I can always upload it on to goear if you want to hear it.

I'm not Gurn, but your description seems to suggest a Sturm und Drang performance. :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on April 18, 2011, 06:12:43 AM
I think it's a case of Harnoncourt has a unique vision, and when it works BOY DOES IT WORK.  This is not really about PI vs MI, it's about one conductor doing something amazing.  And that's how it should be... judge a recording based on artistic merit not on whether they are hip, quasi-hip, modern, romantic etc etc
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bogey on July 07, 2011, 07:10:14 PM
Interesting thing happened at the Mozart concert tonight.  The conductor pointed out that he had the first and second violins sit on the opposite sides tonight.  He explained that back in Mozart's day that this was typical because of the room constraints for playing operas.  Never heard this.  Has anyone here?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: eyeresist on July 07, 2011, 07:58:09 PM
I'm surprised you haven't heard of this. I believe the 20th century norm of all violins to the left was introduced by Stokowski. The change wasn't completely monolithic - when Boult recorded the Elgar symphonies in the 1960s, he was very put out at being made to conform to this "modern" layout. Someone with more expertise in HIP may be able to tell us, but I suspect all the practioners use antiphonal placement (as it can be called) for their strings. I personally prefer it, because it makes the interplay of the firsts and seconds not only clearer but more dynamic, with a kind of call-and-response across the orchestra.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 08, 2011, 03:30:27 AM
I'm surprised you haven't heard of this. I believe the 20th century norm of all violins to the left was introduced by Stokowski. The change wasn't completely monolithic - when Boult recorded the Elgar symphonies in the 1960s, he was very put out at being made to conform to this "modern" layout. Someone with more expertise in HIP may be able to tell us, but I suspect all the practioners use antiphonal placement (as it can be called) for their strings. I personally prefer it, because it makes the interplay of the firsts and seconds not only clearer but more dynamic, with a kind of call-and-response across the orchestra.

Ditto.  :)

Mostly the rationale for it isn't discussed, but I would agree that delineating the parts more clearly by having the voices come from different parts of the ensemble is a very reasonable reason. In any case, it was standard procedure even when an orchestra was just 12 people. From the time of divided parts. :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Bogey on July 08, 2011, 04:13:20 AM
Thanks!  It was very nice and they sounded great.  It rained through most of the concert, but we were under the roofing.  The venue is fairly small.  Should have taken time to count the members of the orchestra, as it seemed paired down, but was enjoying the music too much.  :) Either way, it was fourth straight year of attending this concert as a family.  I dug up the four concerts our family has seen together:

2008
Overture from the Abduction from the Seraglio, K. 384,
Piano Concerto No. 20, K. 466 and
Symphony No. 39 in E flat major, K. 543.

2009
Overture to The Marriage of Figaro
Sinfonia concertante for violin, viola, and orchestra in E-flat Major, K. 364
Symphony No. 40 in G minor, K. 550

2010
Serenade No. 12 in C minor
“Voi che sapete” from Le Nozze di Figaro
“Come scoglio” from Cosi fan tutte
Exsultate jubilate
Symphony No. 38, “Prague”

2011
Overture to Don Giovanni
Oboe Concerto in C Major, K. 314
Eine kleine Nachtmusik (Serenade No. 13 for strings in G major, K. 525) 
Symphony No. 29 in A Major, K. 201/186a

There was a second concert the next evening in 2009 where they did Symph. #41, but we missed out.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Roberto on July 14, 2011, 12:42:13 PM
Greetings to Everybody!

I am a new member on this forum from Hungary. (So please excuse me for my English.) I can't play any instrument. I even can't read score. I just love to listening to classical music. Please keep this in your mind when you read my opinion.
Nowadays I started to compare the "main" HIP Mozart piano concertos (this is why I found this forum). I downloaded some of them but I bought (and I will buy) many of them. The review will be available on my homepage but only in Hungarian. I write some observations here.

Now I am familiar with Immerseel, Sofronitsky and Levin (I bought their CDs). I downloaded Staier, Brautigam and some of Bilson. I will buy the entire Bilson/Gardiner set also. I listened to these mainly on earphones but I listened to the CDs on my stereo system too.

The best series for me is Levin/Hogwood/AAM unambiguously. Levin absolutely understands the mozartian "musical-drama", his improvisations are first-rate. The orchestra plays full of joy and empathy and their playing is excellent. Just listen to the 2nd movement of the concerto no.23.: Levin's ornamentation enforces the dark, sad character of the music. The last movement played by fiery joy which is brilliant. But I noticed in his every recording: his using of rubato is appropriate, his (and the orchestra's) structural sense are perfect, the tempos are superb. Maybe the sound quality sometimes dry (but violins are never harsh) and the sound of the fortepiano is weak on 2 CDs. And he don't use damper (except 1 CD).

Immerseel's album was the first what I bought some years ago and this was the first which showed me all Mozart piano concertos first time. The sound of the Anima Eterna is great but sometimes too strings-based. The sound of the fortepiano was good when I listened on stereo system but it was too far when I listened on earphones. I think Immerseel gives a Beethovenian, romantic character to these concertos (compared to other HIP recording). The tempo sometimes surprisingly slow which is great at the 2nd movements but too slow at the outer movements. (Maybe somebody considered it boring.) The sound of the recordings is polite and silky. The playing of Immerseel is full of dynamic gradiation (I don't know if it is the correct word) but the whole album is not so exciting. But it was my first and I think it is worth get to know it. And it has a unique quality: it shows how Mozart developed his piano concertos; how them became more forceful, how the orchestration became more complex. It is obvious when I listened to them in order. Immerseel wrote about it in the booklet also. I don't find this even in Levin's recordings.

Sofronitsky: I have the new Etcetera album. Well... The sound of the fortepiano is great. He uses the damper artistically (like Immerseel). The woodwinds are in front which adds much to the experience. His tempos are sometimes good (my two favorite are the concertos no. 24. and 25. with her. Maybe because of Levin never recorded these...). The orchestra plays with joy. But! The instruments are so close sometimes that it is disturbing. (But sometimes is not: we can hear the full bass phrase like nowhere else.) The flutes sometimes make loud fizzing noise (I don't know if it is the correct phare). The strings sometimes harsh. And the orchestra sometimes plays like an amateur orchestra. It is obvious when I compared to AAM or even Anima Eterna. (They even made mistake.) There is no structural sense. Sofronitsky doesn't use the rubato like Levin. His ornamentations are not always fits to the music (just listen again the middle movement of no. 23.). She doesn't understand the mozartian musical-drama. His playing sometimes mechanic and lifeless (but at least fast...). He use dynamical gradiation too less (just compare the cadenza of no. 5's first movement with Immerseel). In my opinion it is a good set but far from great.

Have a great day!
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on July 14, 2011, 03:59:37 PM
I agree with your comments about Immerseel, disagree with your comments about Viviana (who is a she btw), and have not heard the Levin set since it is oop.  I would not call V. Sofronitsky mechanical in the least.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Roberto on July 15, 2011, 12:13:49 AM
I bought Levin CDs on Amazon Marketplace last month. When I first downloaded Sofronitsky's album and listened to it on earphones I was very impressed. I don't know. Maybe you are right but compared to Immerseel or Levin she uses lesser dynamical levels and her tempo is not so flexible. She just plays the notes one by one and nothing more. Of course this is not all the time and she has great moments also when she plays with flexibility. I think this set profits from the unique sound quality and soundstage. But when I listened to it more and more and when I compare to other performances I see its weakness. Maybe the harpsichord concertos are better but I didn't listened to them until now. (Of course, there is no perfect performance but I agree with Classics Today's review: http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11951 (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11951).)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 15, 2011, 08:34:23 AM
Hello Roberto - welcome to the GMG Forum -  :D

I've not responded to this thread in over a year - ouch!  However, I did acquire the Viviana Sofronitzki set on the original label shortly after my previous post - now this gal has CREDENTIALS!  She is the daughter of Vladimir S. and the grand daughter of Alexander Scriabin (some of those genes must have rubbed off in her obvious talent); plus, her husband is Paul McNulty who built her fortepiano (and I'm sure that the instrument was kept well in tune!).

Now I must agree w/ David, I do enjoy her performances of these works, and I like the 'up front' nature of the recording (but that is what I prefer) - the orchestra has received some 'mixed' reviews but I find Viviana's playing generally outstanding - in fact, I'm about to put on the first 2 discs of the set having not given the box a listen in a while!

Jed Distler's rather brief and negative review seems in his usual style - he is not one of my favorites and his opinions are often not that useful (at least to me); now for a much longer and rational review check out the one Dominy Clemens on MusicWeb HERE (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/June11/Mozart_Fortepiano_KTC1424.htm); there is also a link in the latter review to the comments on the earlier release (which helped to prompt my purchase).

My only other PI set is w/ Bilson, so cannot provide the extensive notes left by Roberto -  :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 15, 2011, 08:56:19 AM
I bought Levin CDs on Amazon Marketplace last month. When I first downloaded Sofronitsky's album and listened to it on earphones I was very impressed. I don't know. Maybe you are right but compared to Immerseel or Levin she uses lesser dynamical levels and her tempo is not so flexible. She just plays the notes one by one and nothing more. Of course this is not all the time and she has great moments also when she plays with flexibility. I think this set profits from the unique sound quality and soundstage. But when I listened to it more and more and when I compare to other performances I see its weakness. Maybe the harpsichord concertos are better but I didn't listened to them until now. (Of course, there is no perfect performance but I agree with Classics Today's review: http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11951 (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11951).)

Hi, Roberto. Welcome aboard! I agree with you. I think Sofronitsky's style is generally a bit stiff. I clearly prefer Bilson (my personal favorite), Immerseel and Levin. It's curious, you're right about the concertos played on harpsichord; there her style sounds more flexible, imaginative and joyful in a sense that I didn't feel in the fortepiano discs. IMO, CD11 is the best of the series. It's weird because even the ensemble Musica Antiqua Collegium Varsoviense sounds more comfortable in those concerti
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 15, 2011, 09:05:31 AM
Hi, Roberto. Welcome aboard! I agree with you. I think Sofronitsky's style is generally a bit stiff. I clearly prefer Bilson (my personal favorite), Immerseel and Levin. It's curious, you're right about the concertos played on harpsichord; there her style sounds more flexible, imaginative and joyful in a sense that I didn't feel in the fortepiano discs. IMO, CD11 is the best of the series. It's weird because even the ensemble Musica Antiqua Collegium Varsoviense sounds more comfortable in those concerti.

That makes 2 of us who recommend Bilson then. I was not particularly impressed with Sofronitzky either. I like Immerseel, I really like Levin, but ultimately if I can just have one, it will be Bilson/Gardiner. :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 15, 2011, 09:08:14 AM
That makes 2 of us who recommend Bilson then. I was not particularly impressed with Sofronitzky either. I like Immerseel, I really like Levin, but ultimately if I can just have one, it will be Bilson/Gardiner. :)

It's a relief, Gurn! We're friends again!  ;D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 15, 2011, 09:20:24 AM
It's a relief, Gurn! We're friends again!  ;D

There was never an alternative! :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on July 15, 2011, 09:28:42 AM
You HIPsters actually put in print set at the top?? :o  I'm surprised, I thought you only elevated oop sets to the hall of fame! ;D You know a bit of snobbery for rare recordings... >:D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 15, 2011, 09:32:13 AM
You HIPsters actually put in print set at the top?? :o  I'm surprised, I thought you only elevated oop sets to the hall of fame! ;D You know a bit of snobbery for rare recordings... >:D

It can't stay in print forever! Of course, the box set sucks :P , you must have the original Archiv singles with the beautiful flowers on the cover...  0:)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 15, 2011, 09:41:59 AM
That makes 2 of us who recommend Bilson then. I was not particularly impressed with Sofronitzky either. I like Immerseel, I really like Levin, but ultimately if I can just have one, it will be Bilson/Gardiner. :)

8)

Make it three votes for Bilson. I tried Sofronitsky but really didn't enjoy the raw sound.

You HIPsters actually put in print set at the top?? :o  I'm surprised, I thought you only elevated oop sets to the hall of fame! ;D You know a bit of snobbery for rare recordings... >:D

As Gurn says, you must have the individual OOP flower discs. Have no fear, David, snobbery and elitism still rule  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Leon on July 15, 2011, 10:55:37 AM
There's some interesting HIP Mozart on Naxos Music Library.  Aside from the complete Sofronitsky I found a nice selection of some that I knew about and some I did not know about:

Quote
MOZART, W.A.: Piano Concertos Nos. 17, 18, 19, 25 (Schornsheim, New Bach Musicum Collegium Leipzig, Glaetzner)

MOZART, W.A.: Piano Concertos Nos. 6, 9, 20, 21 (Patrick Cohen, Limoges Baroque Ensemble, Coin)

MOZART, W.A.: Piano Concertos Nos. 9, 13, 21 and 23 (Linda Nicholson, Capella Coloniensis, Kraemer)

MOZART, W.A.: Piano Concertos Nos. 12, 25 (Marian Migdal, Cappella Coloniensis, Bjorlin)

MOZART, W.A.: Piano Concertos Nos. 9, "Jeunehomme" and 12 (Brautigam, Kolner Akademie, Willens)

I'm listening to the Schornsheim right now, and wish she'd do more because they are really nice.

You can find these by searching "mozart concertos forte piano" (without the quotes).

 :)


Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 15, 2011, 11:58:34 AM
Well All - appears that Viviana is being 'raked over the coals' -  ;D

I do own the Bilson recordings which I also prefer, so maybe I should look into another PI box?   :D 8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 15, 2011, 12:04:22 PM
Well All - appears that Viviana is being 'raked over the coals' -  ;D

I do own the Bilson recordings which I also prefer, so maybe I should look into another PI box?   :D 8)

I haven't looked for them in a long time, Dave, but if you want some PI Mozart fortepiano works, Bilson's sonata set is hard to beat too. Just sayin'... :)

8)

Edit:  This one, actually:

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 15, 2011, 12:30:50 PM
I haven't looked for them in a long time, Dave, but if you want some PI Mozart fortepiano works, Bilson's sonata set is hard to beat too. Just sayin'... :)


Hi Gurn - yes, I've seen that set and have considered a purchase; now, I do own two PI performances of the Sonatas already, i.e. Lubimov & Brautigam, and please w/ both - any new ones coming out?  Just wondering - Dave  :D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 15, 2011, 02:58:20 PM
Hi Gurn - yes, I've seen that set and have considered a purchase; now, I do own two PI performances of the Sonatas already, i.e. Lubimov & Brautigam, and please w/ both - any new ones coming out?  Just wondering - Dave  :D

Well, since DavidW has already tagged me as a HIP/PI snob, I might as well just go ahead and say "if you don't have Badura-Skoda doing those works, you haven't actually heard them yet".... ;D  No, I can't bring myself to cross that threshold into pure asshole-dom, although thousands have. But I am far more behind that set than any others. I have Lubimov & Brautigam too, Bilson is just uniquely good in his own understated way. I find it hard to rec one over another (except for Badura-Skoda, of course).

If it is as good as his Schubert set, it is a keeper.   

I think it is Leon, I have them both and wouldn't part with either. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03 65 Quartet in C for Strings Op. 64 #1 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: kishnevi on July 15, 2011, 03:49:26 PM
Hi Gurn - yes, I've seen that set and have considered a purchase; now, I do own two PI performances of the Sonatas already, i.e. Lubimov & Brautigam, and please w/ both - any new ones coming out?  Just wondering - Dave  :D

I'm finishing up the Bart van Oort set on Brilliant--includes all the keyboard works, including the 2 keyboard/four hands works (with Ursula Duetschler as his partner in the latter). I don't have anything to directly compare it to, but after 12 CDs (with 2 more to go) I've yet to hear anything I didn't  like.  Even the juvenalia is a pleasant little CD to listen to.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Roberto on July 16, 2011, 01:06:23 AM
She is the daughter of Vladimir S. and the grand daughter of Alexander Scriabin (some of those genes must have rubbed off in her obvious talent); plus, her husband is Paul McNulty who built her fortepiano (and I'm sure that the instrument was kept well in tune!).

My only other PI set is w/ Bilson, so cannot provide the extensive notes left by Roberto -  :)
I have known Viviana's husband is McNulty. I think Viviana's fortepiano is really superb.

I have only 2 downloaded CD from Bilson's set but I will buy the entire set sometime in the future. If I had known Bilson's set then I would have written more.  :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Roberto on July 16, 2011, 01:51:52 AM
Yes, the Levin is very good (might also be my favorite), too bad he never got the complete cycle finished - but I have all but one of the individual sets.  Also, I agree with you on Immerseel - I was very disappointed with this set since I had such high expectations, and it is not disappointement so much with his playing, but the balance between the soloist and the orchestra.  Bilson is better, but I have yet to listen to all of this set - I need to.  I will.   :)
Immerseel's was my first set and he "introduced" me Mozart's piano concertos so this set will always be my special piano concerto set but you are right: the balance is not so good. But it is not so disturbing when I listened to it on my stereo not earphones.

Quote
There's some interesting HIP Mozart on Naxos Music Library.  Aside from the complete Sofronitsky I found a nice selection of some that I knew about and some I did not know about:
I knew Brautigam before but not the others. Thanks!
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 16, 2011, 05:55:33 AM
This morning decided to give Bilson another listen - so far, definitely preferred over Viviana's recordings - the orchestra under Gardiner is just so 'polished' - excellent PI set; now do I need yet another PI box?   ;) ;D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-7Jhvb4c/0/O/MozartPCBilson.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 17, 2011, 09:40:58 AM
........."if you don't have Badura-Skoda doing those works, you haven't actually heard them yet".... ;D  No, I can't bring myself to cross that threshold into pure asshole-dom, although thousands have. But I am far more behind that set than any others. I have Lubimov & Brautigam too, Bilson is just uniquely good in his own understated way. I find it hard to rec one over another (except for Badura-Skoda, of course).

Hi Gurn - your comments above on Badura-Skoda peaked my attention (presumably your preference in the Mozart Sonatas?) - now I have his Schubert recordings; however, the Wolfie (at least as a 5-disc box) seems unavailable - so, I was able to download the five discs as FLAC files, converted them to MP3 (256 kbps), and burned to one CD-R.

Now listening to disc No. 3 - these performances are beautifully done - don't have any liner notes but if possible would be curious about the recording time span and the fortepiano used (I know he owns a number of these instruments) - would appreciate any information - thanks, as usual.  Dave


(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-TJJbJ7v/0/O/MozartBaduraSkoda.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 17, 2011, 10:15:17 AM
Hi Gurn - your comments above on Badura-Skoda peaked my attention (presumably your preference in the Mozart Sonatas?) - now I have his Schubert recordings; however, the Wolfie (at least as a 5-disc box) seems unavailable - so, I was able to download the five discs as FLAC files, converted them to MP3 (256 kbps), and burned to one CD-R.

Now listening to disc No. 3 - these performances are beautifully done - don't have any liner notes but if possible would be curious about the recording time span and the fortepiano used (I know he owns a number of these instruments) - would appreciate any information - thanks, as usual.  Dave


(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-TJJbJ7v/0/O/MozartBaduraSkoda.jpg)

Hey, Dave. Well that's an interesting set right there. I actually have the "hard copies" of those, so I can tell you without a doubt that there are no liner notes, not a note to be seen or heard anywhere about them. I agree, they are very nice performances indeed. However, I will pass this along to you; despite the fact that there is an unquestionable picture of a fortepiano on the cover, I have been told by someone knowledgeable about these things that it is a modern piano of some sort that he is playing. It sounded like one to me, even though some modern pianos can be made to sound rather like a fortepiano (note Ingrid Haebler playing Mozart on Philips or John McCabe playing Haydn on Decca). In the end they are too smooth to be genuinely a Walter, Steiner or Schantz (or a good copy, since it's the action, not the age, that rock and rolls). That was why I started asking around about it. If someone has a definitive answer to the contrary I would be interested to hear that side of the story.

No matter the instrument, they are still very fine performances, and I listen to my set fairly often still. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Four Nations Ensemble - Keyboard Trio No. 18 (Sonata) in A - Hob XV-18 - Allegro
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 17, 2011, 10:36:43 AM
Hey, Dave. Well that's an interesting set right there. I actually have the "hard copies" of those, so I can tell you without a doubt that there are no liner notes, not a note to be seen or heard anywhere about them. I agree, they are very nice performances indeed. However, I will pass this along to you; despite the fact that there is an unquestionable picture of a fortepiano on the cover, I have been told by someone knowledgeable about these things that it is a modern piano of some sort that he is playing. It sounded like one to me, even though some modern pianos can be made to sound rather like a fortepiano (note Ingrid Haebler playing Mozart on Philips or John McCabe playing Haydn on Decca). In the end they are too smooth to be genuinely a Walter, Steiner or Schantz (or a good copy, since it's the action, not the age, that rock and rolls). That was why I started asking around about it. If someone has a definitive answer to the contrary I would be interested to hear that side of the story.

No matter the instrument, they are still very fine performances, and I listen to my set fairly often still. :)

I didn't know the existence of these recordings.

I own the complete piano sonatas - plus some miscellaneous works - recorded on Naïve, a 6-CD set which includes a description of the fortepiano played in every disc (from Badura-Skoda's collection) and extensive liner notes by him and Eva Badura-Skoda.

This is my set:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000BK53NI.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 17, 2011, 10:40:29 AM
I didn't know the existence of these recordings.

I own the complete piano sonatas - plus some miscellaneous works - recorded on Naïve, a 6-CD set which includes a description of the fortepiano played in every disc (from Badura-Skoda's collection) and extensive liner notes by him and Eva Badura-Skoda.

This is my set:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000BK53NI.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg)

Yes, that is the set that I also have. I actually bought it to replace the one that Dave mentions, simply because I didn't know anything about that set, the box says absolutely nothing except the track names. It's the Naive one that I was talking about earlier though. Wonderful set, and easily my favorite despite all the others I have. :)

8)


----------------
Now playing:
New Dusseldorf Hofmusik / Utiger   Christine Schornsheim - Hob 18 02 Concerto in D for Harpsichord 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 17, 2011, 10:49:43 AM
Yes, that is the set that I also have. I actually bought it to replace the one that Dave mentions, simply because I didn't know anything about that set, the box says absolutely nothing except the track names. It's the Naive one that I was talking about earlier though. Wonderful set, and easily my favorite despite all the others I have. :)

Then he recorded twice the piano sonatas... interesting. He did so with Beethoven: he recorded the complete piano sonatas between 1969-70 (still available on Gramola) and then recorded them again in Naïve, this time on pianoforte (the first set was played on his Bösendorfer Imperial, I think).     
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 17, 2011, 11:13:44 AM
Then he recorded twice the piano sonatas... interesting. He did so with Beethoven: he recorded the complete piano sonatas between 1969-70 (still available on Gramola) and then recorded them again in Naïve, this time on pianoforte (the first set was played on his Bösendorfer Imperial, I think).   

Yes, that is correct (AFAIK). I also have the Astrée/Naive set. Todd has reviewed the Bösendorfer set quite favorably, although I wasn't particularly interested in yet another modern piano set, despite that the piano is such a great one. As far as Mozart goes, I had heard that he maybe recorded them 3 times total. I don't know, the set we have on Naive is a re-release of an Astrée original, I'm fairly sure. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
New Dusseldorf Hofmusik / Utiger   Christine Schornsheim - Hob 18 08 Concerto in C for Organ 1st mvmt - Moderato
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 17, 2011, 01:34:46 PM
Hey, Dave. Well that's an interesting set right there. I actually have the "hard copies" of those, so I can tell you without a doubt that there are no liner notes, not a note to be seen or heard anywhere about them. I agree, they are very nice performances indeed. However, I will pass this along to you; despite the fact that there is an unquestionable picture of a fortepiano on the cover, I have been told by someone knowledgeable about these things that it is a modern piano of some sort that he is playing. It sounded like one to me, even though some modern pianos can be made to sound rather like a fortepiano (note Ingrid Haebler playing Mozart on Philips or John McCabe playing Haydn on Decca). In the end they are too smooth to be genuinely a Walter, Steiner or Schantz (or a good copy, since it's the action, not the age, that rock and rolls). That was why I started asking around about it. If someone has a definitive answer to the contrary I would be interested to hear that side of the story.

No matter the instrument, they are still very fine performances, and I listen to my set fairly often still. :)

Gurn - now this is becoming mysterious!  ;D

I've gone through 4 of the discs (as MP3 files) and agree that the piano just sounded rather 'modern' to my ears - still, excellent performances, so now I'm intrigued -   8)

I found a post on a Mozart Forum HERE (http://www.mozartforum.com/VB_forum/archive/index.php?t-1563.html) stating "Paul Badura-Skoda, Paul (forte-piano Johann Schantz, Vienna ca. 1790)" from 2005, and one that you had a response although not stating any information (or agreeing) about the type of piano used - the mystery continues (and labels are different?) -  ;)

On Amazon, Scott Morrison describing the box pictured below states "these performances were recorded on one that he owns, a 1790 piano built in Vienna by Johann Schantz, which was just one year before Mozart's death. So there is every reason to believe that Mozart himself played on similar pianos. " (HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Sonates-pour-pianoforte-Box/dp/B000BK53NI)) - now did Badura-Skoda record 'complete' sets of the Mozart Piano Sonatas more than once? 

Finally, there is a short review by Jed Distler stating "I compared the performances to Badura-Skoda's 1979-81 counterparts on a modern concert grand (issued on Eurodisc, and now out of print)." (on ClassicsToday HERE (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=5858), implying that the performances on Eurodisc are on a modern piano).

Now, I'm not sure; but, appears that this pianist has recorded these sonatas more than once and on two different types of pianos - I suspect that the Eurodisc recordings are on the modern piano - hope that others may provide enlightenment?  Dave

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51d1dLku1kL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 17, 2011, 02:17:35 PM
Gurn - now this is becoming mysterious!  ;D


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51d1dLku1kL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Dave,
Well this box pictured is certainly played on a 1790 Schantz owned by Badura-Skoda. I have it at hand as I type. It says the original copyright is 1990, and I believe that is the recording date also. Now, the Eurodisc box, which I also have at hand as I type, gives the original recording dates as November, 1979 - April, 1981. It says below that "Paul Badura-Skoda, Piano (which was what got me started looking around after my ears started twitching :) ). Also it is 5 disks and the Naive is 6 disks. So Scott is describing the 2nd cycle, and Distler the 1st. Before I purchased the Naive cycle, I had been looking around for it for several years. Around the turn of the millennium, there were a very few Astrée single disks floating around. Of course, Naive and Astrée are sister labels, and I believe that around 2006 (Mozart 250th birthday), they collected those singles into a box and re-released them on Naive. Good thing, the 2 or 3 singles I found were going for $75-100, and the box was $35. :)

8)


----------------
Now playing:
Quatuor Terpsycordes - D 804 Quartet in a for Strings 4th mvmt - Allegro moderato
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Leon on July 21, 2011, 07:31:58 AM
Listening right now to Mozart Piano Trios on BIS, the Arion Trio -

(http://di1.shopping.com/images/pi/98/87/65/2002308497-200x200-0-0.jpg?p=p7.a591c544a8f37a5a8af6&a=2&c=1&l=8055916&t=101028012103&r=3)

And was wondering if anyone has heard the Mozartean Players with these works on PI?  Or any other PI recordings of them out there?


Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on July 21, 2011, 08:07:11 AM
Listening right now to Mozart Piano Trios on BIS, the Arion Trio -

(http://di1.shopping.com/images/pi/98/87/65/2002308497-200x200-0-0.jpg?p=p7.a591c544a8f37a5a8af6&a=2&c=1&l=8055916&t=101028012103&r=3)

And was wondering if anyone has heard the Mozartean Players with these works on PI?  Or any other PI recordings of them out there?

I like the recording that you're listening to (Arion Trio).  As for the Mozartean Players, I didn't like them when I heard them but I'm willing to try again.  We've discussed this before and all of the HIPsters seem to love the Mozartean Players.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Leon on July 21, 2011, 08:30:32 AM
I like the recording that you're listening to (Arion Trio).  As for the Mozartean Players, I didn't like them when I heard them but I'm willing to try again.  We've discussed this before and all of the HIPsters seem to love the Mozartean Players.

Also, toñito alerted me to a 5-CD set (PI) of Mozart's chamber music by the Smithson String Quartet which may have these works; won't know until the box arrives.  I had forgotten about ordering that set when I posted above.



A great deal, 5 discs for under $15.00 - if you want PI set of Mozart SQ.

 :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on July 21, 2011, 08:36:40 AM
Thanks Leon, I never got that QM set so this will be awesome!  Ordered. :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 21, 2011, 08:59:07 AM
Thanks Leon, I never got that QM set so this will be awesome!  Ordered. :)

Yep, that's exactly the box that I mentioned to you once before. It is very fine. :)

As for the Mozartean Players, I like them pretty well. Lubin is a good fortepianist. I have the complete piano trios both by them and by the London Mozart Players on Hyperion. It's a toss-up, they both have their strengths and weaknesses.

None of which is to say that I don't enjoy the BAT from time to time. :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 21, 2011, 01:46:19 PM
Listening right now to Mozart Piano Trios on BIS, the Arion Trio -

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/0c/e9/fc20225b9da06bde64762110.L._AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/412D9YFBR7L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

And was wondering if anyone has heard the Mozartean Players with these works on PI?  Or any other PI recordings of them out there?

Well, I've not heard the Arion Trio, but I've own the Lubin 2-CD set for years (and actually my only recording of these works so I must enjoy - also have their recordings of the Piano Quartets) - but, could always used an additional performance, PI or not!  ;D

Concerning the Smithson String Quartet offering, which I also own - does NOT include the trios, mainly string quartets & a few quintets (plus sever other chamber works).   :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 21, 2011, 02:15:38 PM
Concerning the Smithson String Quartet offering, which I also own - does NOT include the trios, mainly string quartets & a few quintets (plus sever other chamber works).   :)

Yes, the so-called "Haydn quartets" are the core of this set. This is the exact program:

CD1
Divertimento for violin, viola and cello in E flat major K563 (1788) [49:21]
Quartet for oboe, violin and ‘cello in F major K370 (1781) [14:32]

CD2
String Quartet no 14 in G major K 387 (1782) [21:11]
String Quartet no 15 in D minor K 421 (1783) [30:45]

CD3
String Quartet no 16 in E flat major K428 (1784) [33:40]
String Quartet no 17 in B flat major K 458 “The Hunt” (1784) [32:49]

CD4
String Quartet no 18 in A major K464 (1785) [37:42]
String Quartet no 19 in C major K465 “Dissonance” (1785) [38:06]

CD5
String Quintet in B flat major K174 (1773) [39:52]
String Quintet in G minor K516 (1787) [39:33]

 :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on July 21, 2011, 03:20:58 PM
Still riding the PI Mozart mood, I also ordered the Festetics Quartet set for the late quartets.  I think I stand alone, but when I heard some of their Mozart SQs on nml I was wowed. :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 21, 2011, 04:07:03 PM
Still riding the PI Mozart mood, I also ordered the Festetics Quartet set for the late quartets.  I think I stand alone, but when I heard some of their Mozart SQs on nml I was wowed. :)

If you are talking about this set, then you aren't entirely alone;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/MozartLateQuartetscover.jpg)

as I am also very fond of it. So in addition to my Mosaiques set of all 10, I have a second set of the Haydn's by the Smithsons, and the Last 4 by the Festetics. A varied approach is always best.   0:)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Quatuor Mosaiques - Hob 03 80 Quartet in Eb for Strings Op 76 #6 1st mvmt - Allegretto
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 21, 2011, 04:15:29 PM
A varied approach is always best.

A varied HIP approach is always the best.

Damn! I'm seeing Jens on the horizon. Run, Gurn, run!  ;D :D ;D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 21, 2011, 04:20:40 PM
A varied HIP approach is always the best.

Damn! I'm seeing Jens on the horizon. Run, Gurn, run!  ;D :D ;D

:o :o  I guess we HIP/PI's have more than sound quality to argue about, eh?   :)

Oh, I guess I forgot to mention the delightfully different approach espoused by the Kuijken Quartet in the 6 Haydn Quartets... :) 

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Quattuor Mosaiques - Hob 03 80 Quartet in Eb for Strings Op 76 #6 4th mvmt - Finale: Allegro spiritoso
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 21, 2011, 04:27:14 PM
:o :o  I guess we HIP/PI's have more than sound quality to argue about, eh?   :)

Oh, I guess I forgot to mention the delightfully different approach espoused by the Kuijken Quartet in the 6 Haydn Quartets... :) 

BTW, as you, I guess David ordered the Festetics on Arcana (again: what a wonderful label!). But it would be great to have their Mozart's string quartets recorded on Hungaroton (a 3-CD set, quartets 1 to 13), totally OOP, but available on NML.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on July 21, 2011, 04:37:56 PM
Tonito that Hungarton one is what I heard on nml and wow! great stuff, too bad it is oop.  You're right I ordered the Arcana one off of arkivmusic.

You know what I was thinking of the other forum, this one embraces QF with arms open! :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 21, 2011, 04:40:18 PM
BTW, as you, I guess David ordered the Festetics on Arcana (again: what a wonderful label!). But it would be great to have their Mozart's string quartets recorded on Hungaroton (a 3-CD set, quartets 1 to 13), totally OOP, but available on NML.

Yes, that would be great. AFAIK, that's the only PI set ever recorded of those works. I have them on Calliope, done by the Talich Quartet, but really, that's the only set I've ever seen of them at all, MI or PI!

8)

----------------
Now playing:
L' Archibudelli - Hob 03 81 Quartet in G for Strings Op 77 #1 3rd mvmt - Menuetto: Presto
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on July 21, 2011, 04:49:58 PM
I looked around and found that you can actually buy the #1-13 set on itunes for a whopping $30!
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Leon on July 21, 2011, 05:07:04 PM
Wow - I am listening to the Festetics Mozart on NML as  type this and this is really very enjoyable.   
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on July 21, 2011, 05:10:06 PM
Awesome Leon! :)  We can have a Festetics treehouse, critics not allowed! ;D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Leon on July 21, 2011, 05:16:22 PM
Awesome Leon! :)  We can have a Festetics treehouse, critics not allowed! ;D

 :D

Looks like I will be sending some business to Arkiv Music ... this is turning into a Mozart month!  But I think I'll splurge and get all the Haydn discs as well.

 ;)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on July 21, 2011, 05:29:00 PM
Awesome Leon!  That will be a heck of a haul!! :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: kishnevi on July 21, 2011, 05:47:01 PM
Yes, that would be great. AFAIK, that's the only PI set ever recorded of those works. I have them on Calliope, done by the Talich Quartet, but really, that's the only set I've ever seen of them at all, MI or PI!

8)


You have me confused.  Which works are you talking about?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: kishnevi on July 21, 2011, 06:40:41 PM
Meanwhile,  I went exploring on Arkiv and Amazon and ended up ordering the Festetics/Badura Skoda recording of the piano quartets.  My only other recording of these works is the Mozartean Players,  so I still have no MI version of them.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on July 21, 2011, 08:23:50 PM
Meanwhile,  I went exploring on Arkiv and Amazon and ended up ordering the Festetics/Badura Skoda recording of the piano quartets.  My only other recording of these works is the Mozartean Players,  so I still have no MI version of them.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51tw9QrZoFL.jpg)

That is an absolutely great recording! :) Totally satisfacory and upstages the Mozartean Players IMO in character. Yes, I'm another QF devotee ;D. Though spreading the word on them was initially a bumpy ride...  8)

BTW I recently made an inventory of PI rec. of the piano quartets (haven't heard any of them):

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4909346305991.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51V5r2s3EML._SS500_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61MH9WSX29L._SS500_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51PEXek72cL._SS400_.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on July 21, 2011, 08:36:57 PM
And was wondering if anyone has heard the Mozartean Players with these works on PI?  Or any other PI recordings of them out there?

Well, I've not heard the Arion Trio, but I've own the Lubin 2-CD set for years (and actually my only recording of these works so I must enjoy - also have their recordings of the Piano Quartets) - but, could always used an additional performance, PI or not!  ;D

Another vote for the Mozartean Players!  :) Don't feel the need to explore other options, though I think there aren't many.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/412D9YFBR7L._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41UuCbV9E%2BL.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Roberto on July 21, 2011, 10:02:30 PM
I am thinking of some Mozart chamber music to buy next month (HIP of course  :) ). String quintets, quartets trios maybe. I found your posts helpful. I don't know these pieces yet so I have to thinking on "names" and "labels".
I have chosen the piano quartets with Bilson/Wilcock/Schlapp/Mason on Archiv. I think it can't be wrong.

I chosen the quintets with the Salomon quartet but only based on the reviews on Amazon. What do you think?



I didn't choose any piano trios. Maybe I will buy some church sonata instead of trios now.

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 21, 2011, 10:33:52 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51tw9QrZoFL.jpg)

... Yes, I'm another QF devotee ;D. Though spreading the word on them was initially a bumpy ride...  8)

Yes, I clearly recall when some years ago you preached in the wilderness on Festetics' virtues before the Arcana resurrection. Three years ago, Gurn was probably the only other GMG member (apart from you) who had recordings by the Festetics. But I don't know if today the Festetics have gotten a really wider audience (I hope so) because here we are still you, Gurn and me and, fortunately, Leon and David are joining to us. Anyway I would recommend to every Haydn and Festetics fan to acquire quickly all their string quartets on Arcana because nobody knows how much time they will be available.   :) 
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 22, 2011, 03:24:14 AM
I am thinking of some Mozart chamber music to buy next month (HIP of course  :) ). String quintets, quartets trios maybe. I found your posts helpful. I don't know these pieces yet so I have to thinking on "names" and "labels".
I have chosen the piano quartets with Bilson/Wilcock/Schlapp/Mason on Archiv. I think it can't be wrong.

I chosen the quintets with the Salomon quartet but only based on the reviews on Amazon. What do you think?



I didn't choose any piano trios. Maybe I will buy some church sonata instead of trios now.



Roberto, I think you will really like that Salomon's "Quintets" duo. I am very pleased with it myself. This group gives good solid performances, and well-recorded by Hyperion.

I haven't heard that Church Sonatas disk before. I should remedy that, as I like the music very well. :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 22, 2011, 03:27:10 AM
You have me confused.  Which works are you talking about?

The early string quartets, #1 - 13. Very rarely recorded, not because they aren't well worth a listen but because... ??? Well, hell, I don't know why. Guess it's because they are before K250... ::)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 22, 2011, 06:45:31 AM
Yes, I clearly recall when some years ago you preached in the wilderness on Festetics' virtues before the Arcana resurrection. Three years ago, Gurn was probably the only other GMG member (apart from you) who had recordings by the Festetics. But I don't know if today the Festetics have gotten a really wider audience (I hope so) because here we are still you, Gurn and me and, fortunately, Leon and David are joining to us......

Well, I believe that there are more GMGers out there w/ Q. Festetics' recordings - of the Mozart, I just have the Piano Quartets w/ Badura-Skoda; but for a number of years I've acquired their Haydn SQ recordings (now own Op. 09, 17, 20, 54, 55, 64, 71, 77, & 103); saw the Mozart 2-disc set of the last 4 SQs at a good price on Amazon USA but not available at the moment!

Now I'm curious, what outside of Mozart & Haydn is of interest by this group?  :D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Mandryka on July 22, 2011, 08:03:38 AM
Yes, I clearly recall when some years ago you preached in the wilderness on Festetics' virtues before the Arcana resurrection. Three years ago, Gurn was probably the only other GMG member (apart from you) who had recordings by the Festetics. But I don't know if today the Festetics have gotten a really wider audience (I hope so) because here we are still you, Gurn and me and, fortunately, Leon and David are joining to us. Anyway I would recommend to every Haydn and Festetics fan to acquire quickly all their string quartets on Arcana because nobody knows how much time they will be available.   :)

I was only today enjoying their Op 64/2 (Haydn).  I haven't heard the Mozart though -- will do one day, I'm sure.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 22, 2011, 09:06:08 AM
Well, I believe that there are more GMGers out there w/ Q. Festetics' recordings - of the Mozart, I just have the Piano Quartets w/ Badura-Skoda; but for a number of years I've acquired their Haydn SQ recordings (now own Op. 09, 17, 20, 54, 55, 64, 71, 77, & 103); saw the Mozart 2-disc set of the last 4 SQs at a good price on Amazon USA but not available at the moment!

Now I'm curious, what outside of Mozart & Haydn is of interest by this group?  :D

Leon has posted a couple of Hungaroton disks by them in The Corner. One of them I have is 6 quartets by Franz Grill. Very nice, actually. I disremember right now the other one, but he posted it again just a week or so ago, so it must be on the last 2 or 3 pages. He likes it, I am thinking I would too.... :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: kishnevi on July 22, 2011, 05:20:08 PM
The early string quartets, #1 - 13. Very rarely recorded, not because they aren't well worth a listen but because... ??? Well, hell, I don't know why. Guess it's because they are before K250... ::)

8)

You'll be glad to know the Jerusalem Quartet included one of them on their new Mozart recording (K157 IIRC--don't have the CD directly at hand)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 22, 2011, 05:46:29 PM
You'll be glad to know the Jerusalem Quartet included one of them on their new Mozart recording (K157 IIRC--don't have the CD directly at hand)

Yes, actually I am pleased to hear that. Maybe it will inspire other groups to at least take a look at them. About the only one you hear from then is K 173 - #13 and of course that's because it is in d minor. Nice though!   :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Divertimento Salzburg / Haselböck - Hob 18:06 Concerto in F for Organ & Violin 2nd mvmt - Largo
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on July 22, 2011, 08:50:00 PM
I didn't choose any piano trios. Maybe I will buy some church sonata instead of trios now.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61W2rMS3KTL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

They doen't look to be on period instruments? Anyway, I do know just the thing! :)
I actually play this recording quite often - the charm of these pieces as well as the performances proves to be quite irresistable.

One caveat for collectors in relation to the title "Chamber sonatas" on the cover instead of "Church sonatas": the recording sticks to the sonatas with the instrumentation of a "church trio": two violins, bass and organ. The sonatas scored for additional wind instruments are excluded (K263, 278 and 329). A chamber organ is used and not a church organ. Still, this recording is a peach IMO. :)



Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Roberto on July 23, 2011, 11:33:49 AM
They doen't look to be on period instruments? Anyway, I do know just the thing! :)
I actually play this recording quite often - the charm of these pieces as well as the performances proves to be quite irresistible.

One caveat for collectors in relation to the title "Chamber sonatas" on the cover instead of "Church sonatas": the recording sticks to the sonatas with the instrumentation of a "church trio": two violins, bass and organ. The sonatas scored for additional wind instruments are excluded (K263, 278 and 329). A chamber organ is used and not a church organ. Still, this recording is a peach IMO. :)
Q

I didn't know if they are playing on period instruments or not. I think there are not much recordings from these pieces. Actually it is lighten my task to choose one.  :) Anyway thanks for the suggestion.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: kishnevi on July 23, 2011, 06:45:31 PM
Just checking in to note that I ordered the Festetics "Last Quartets" tonight from Arkivmusic. 
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Roberto on August 15, 2011, 03:26:21 AM
Today arrived (brand new):
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61qL2xLZXhL.jpg)

It completes my Mozart-Levine-Hogwood-AAM collection.  :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidRoss on August 15, 2011, 04:41:44 AM
I finally got around to hearing Jacobs's #40 and Immerseel's, too.  I'll stick with Minkowski, thanks.  I like the snap and bite and grunge.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Roberto on August 15, 2011, 05:01:19 AM
I finally got around to hearing Jacobs's #40 and Immerseel's, too.  I'll stick with Minkowski, thanks.  I like the snap and bite and grunge.
I am impressed by Jacobs' 40th and have not heard Immerseel's. I have Minkowski's recording but I haven't heard yet.  :-[ But I love Minkowski's 41st especially the last movement. It is better even than Jacobs (I miss the structural sense in the last movement with Jacobs).
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Leo K. on August 18, 2011, 12:54:59 PM
I am currently listening to the Rene Jacobs recording of Don Giovanni for the first time, and WOW, it's a revelation!
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidW on August 27, 2011, 04:06:02 AM
Alright question: what are your favorite PI recordings of Mozart's 35th and 36th symphonies?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Mandryka on August 27, 2011, 04:55:58 AM
Alright question: what are your favorite PI recordings of Mozart's . . .  36th [symphony]?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/2137AKF7BAL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Haffner's harder - I have a bootleg of Abbado's inaugural concert with Orchestra Mozart in Bologna where he plays it real nicely.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 27, 2011, 05:25:10 AM
Alright question: what are your favorite PI recordings of Mozart's 35th and 36th symphonies?

In thumbing back through my top shelf Mozart collection, I see that this is still in that position:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/MozartHogwoodSymphoniescover.jpg)

It is simply too well-suited to most aspects of my taste for me to stray too far. :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Roberto on August 27, 2011, 09:44:16 PM
Alright question: what are your favorite PI recordings of Mozart's 35th and 36th symphonies?
I wish René Jacobs would record these works.  ::) (With Freiburgers of course.)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: DavidRoss on August 31, 2011, 12:36:25 PM
I am currently listening to the Rene Jacobs recording of Don Giovanni for the first time, and WOW, it's a revelation!
His Le Nozze and especially his Cosi are even better!
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Roberto on September 01, 2011, 12:54:43 AM
His Le Nozze and especially his Cosi are even better!
But for me the Concerto Köln (although they are very good) is not as the same level as the Freiburger Barockorchester. And I miss the transparent orchestral sound from these recordings which is so beautiful with the Freiburgers.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: jlaurson on September 01, 2011, 01:51:57 AM
His Le Nozze and especially his Cosi are even better!

Fully agreed, without taking away anything from his Don Giovanni.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Leo K. on September 03, 2011, 06:19:32 AM
His Le Nozze and especially his Cosi are even better!

Yes, I believe you are right! Great recordings indeed!
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Cascade on November 23, 2011, 10:19:55 AM
http://youtu.be/RBU5VEEKpXk

Mozart K.378 performed by Kurosaki and Nicholson. Sounds lovely. Hopefully these recordings will be reissued at some point! The only result on Ebay is from a german seller who asks €80 for a used set. :o

What do you guys think are the best hip-recordings of the violin sonatas that are not oop?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: jlaurson on November 23, 2011, 10:51:50 AM
http://youtu.be/RBU5VEEKpXk

Mozart K.378 performed by Kurosaki and Nicholson. Sounds lovely. Hopefully these recordings will be reissued at some point! The only result on Ebay is from a german seller who asks €80 for a used set. :o

What do you guys think are the best hip-recordings of the violin sonatas that are not oop?


The complete set can be had for a decent price at German Amazon (http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B000023Z1S/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1638&creative=19454&creativeASIN=B000023Z1S).

I'd like to say: "Cooper / Podger" -- but I'm not as enthusiastic about their set as I thought I'd be.
I very much like the one-off effort of Manze & Egarr on HMU (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BBYSAG/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=217145&creative=399369&creativeASIN=B000BBYSAG)... which alas does not include the B-flat Major.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2011, 11:08:16 AM
http://youtu.be/RBU5VEEKpXk

Mozart K.378 performed by Kurosaki and Nicholson. Sounds lovely. Hopefully these recordings will be reissued at some point! The only result on Ebay is from a german seller who asks €80 for a used set. :o

What do you guys think are the best hip-recordings of the violin sonatas that are not oop?

My personal favorites all-around are Rivest & Breitman. Right behind are Kuijken & Devos. Among older individual disks I like Kuijken & Leonhardt. I also have the first 3 volumes of Bianchini's set, although I am damned if I can remember the name of her keyboardist   :-[  The one I would most like to hear is Podger/Cooper. There are so many nice disks out there in this repertoire, it is really hard to say "this is my very favorite one".  :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Leon on November 23, 2011, 11:14:46 AM
Quote
What do you guys think are the best hip-recordings of the violin sonatas that are not oop?

I echo the recommendations previously mentioned, esp. the Rivest & Breitman - but this one is very nice, imo, although far from complete:



 :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on November 23, 2011, 12:28:50 PM
Another Rivest & Breitman (Analekta) fan reporting. $:)

Though I can imagine the Müllejans & Bezuidenhout being very good.

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2011, 12:35:48 PM

Though I can imagine the Müllejans & Bezuidenhout being very good.
Q

Me too. So much music, so little time. :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 23, 2011, 07:32:05 PM
What do you guys think are the best hip-recordings of the violin sonatas that are not oop?

As it's clear from the previous posts, there are three HIP sets currently available:

- Kuijken/Devos (Accent);

- Podger/Cooper (Channel Classics);

- Rivest/Breitman (Analekta).

We have had this conversation several times before, so our preferences are already quite clear. Harry will vote Kuijken; Q, Rivest; me: Podger. Then there are some more moderate supporters. For instance, Gurn prefers Rivest, but less categorically than Q and if it exists a slight provocation, Jens will mention a non-HIP CD: Steinberg/Uchida.  ;D

Personally, I consider Podger/Cooper the most beautifully played and recorded and the most complete set in existence. YouTube provides some nice examples.  :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2011, 08:00:19 PM
As it's clear from the previous posts, there are three HIP sets currently available:

- Kuijken/Devos (Accent);

- Podger/Cooper (Channel Classics);

- Rivest/Breitman (Analekta).

We have had this conversation several times before, so our preferences are already quite clear. Harry will vote Kuijken; Q, Rivest; me: Podger. Then there are some more moderate supporters. For instance, Gurn prefers Rivest, but less categorically than Q and if it exists a slight provocation, Jens will mention a non-HIP CD: Steinberg/Uchida.  ;D

Personally, I consider Podger/Cooper the most beautifully played and recorded and the most complete set in existence. YouTube provides some nice examples.  :)

:D  Although I did mention that I would like to hear Podger/Cooper... :)

I have a variety of individual disks that I quite enjoy also. For example, I have Schiff/Shiokawa playing on Mozart's own instruments from the Mozarteum, which is a very nice disk. And a Malcolm Bilson / Sergiu Luca box on Etcetera. But for complete sets it's a different story, as you say, Antoine. Not so many out there.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/MozartVPBanchiniVol1cover-1.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/MozartVPBanchiniVol2cover-1.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/MozartVPBanchiniVol3cover-1.jpg)

Or these guys here... :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: jlaurson on November 24, 2011, 01:52:09 AM

We have had this conversation several times before, so our preferences are already quite clear. Harry will vote Kuijken; Q, Rivest; me: Podger. Then there are some more moderate supporters. For instance, Gurn prefers Rivest, but less categorically than Q and if it exists a slight provocation, Jens will mention a non-HIP CD: Steinberg/Uchida.  ;D


I would hate to disappoint you:

"HIP or not, this is one of the finest Mozart Sonatas for Keyboard and Violin single discs:


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0007KTAXQ.01.L.jpg)
Mozart, A few Violin Sonatas
Uchida / Steinberg
Philips (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0007KTAXQ/goodmusicguide-20)

But I should like to point out that my first action was to point out this disc.


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000BBYSAG.01.L.jpg)
Mozart, A couple Violin Sonatas
Egarr / Manze
Harmonia Mundi (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000BBYSAG/goodmusicguide-20)


Unfortunately I've not yet heard the Bezuidenhout recording... esp. given how much I love his Mozart Sonata recordings (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/03/dip-your-ears-no-107.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/03/dip-your-ears-no-107.html)), I am expecting a whole lot from it.


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B001LJL530.01.L.jpg)
Mozart, A few Violin Sonatas
Bezuidenhout / Müllejans
Harmonia Mundi (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001LJL530/goodmusicguide-20)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Willoughby earl of Itacarius on November 24, 2011, 03:29:42 AM
Kuijken it still is. Re listen to them, and they charm me as ever before....wonderful!
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Cascade on November 24, 2011, 12:08:37 PM
Thank you all for the suggestions! I've got some sampling to do! 8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on November 24, 2011, 01:42:16 PM
As it's clear from the previous posts, there are three HIP sets currently available:

- Kuijken/Devos (Accent);

- Podger/Cooper (Channel Classics);

- Rivest/Breitman (Analekta).

We have had this conversation several times before, so our preferences are already quite clear. Harry will vote Kuijken; Q, Rivest; me: Podger. Then there are some more moderate supporters. For instance, Gurn prefers Rivest, but less categorically than Q and if it exists a slight provocation, Jens will mention a non-HIP CD: Steinberg/Uchida.  ;D

Personally, I consider Podger/Cooper the most beautifully played and recorded and the most complete set in existence. YouTube provides some nice examples.

I have Kuijken/Devos (tipped off to a wonderful bargain by Harry, on whom be blessings poured) and almost all the Podger/Cooper. The Podger/Cooper recordings are lovely, no question; anyone would be pleased to have them. But there is something about the Kuijken/Devos set that grabbed me right from the start, and had me spinning the discs day after day, revelling in the rough vitality, and chuckling out loud sometimes. When I bought a couple of the Podger discs I was a bit disappointed at first, by what seemed to be a more 'polite' approach, though once I became more used to their take on things, I  realised that was a misunderstanding. Even so, I still think there's a kind of wildness in the Kuijken that is missing from the Podger, and it's the Kuijken I'd grab first if I had to rescue one from a fire.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 24, 2011, 03:39:35 PM
I have Kuijken/Devos (tipped off to a wonderful bargain by Harry, on whom be blessings poured) and almost all the Podger/Cooper. The Podger/Cooper recordings are lovely, no question; anyone would be pleased to have them. But there is something about the Kuijken/Devos set that grabbed me right from the start, and had me spinning the discs day after day, revelling in the rough vitality, and chuckling out loud sometimes. When I bought a couple of the Podger discs I was a bit disappointed at first, by what seemed to be a more 'polite' approach, though once I became more used to their take on things, I  realised that was a misunderstanding. Even so, I still think there's a kind of wildness in the Kuijken that is missing from the Podger, and it's the Kuijken I'd grab first if I had to rescue one from a fire.

I think your description of Kuijken/Devos is very accurate. But curiously that "roughness" (on the part of Kuijken because I like Devos), it's the main reason why I have problems with those recordings. Never before or after them, I felt more insistently that Kuijken was a Baroque violinist invading the Classical repertoire. Classical music (I mean music from the so-called Classical period) is essentially about to please and entertain and I don't see Kuijken doing that with his nude tone. On the contrary, I think he loses a great part of the charm and sweetness of Mozart, without to gain in deep melancholy, as Steinberg, for instance... And that charm, sweetness, balance and respect for Classical proportions it's what I love in Podger/Cooper.  :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on November 24, 2011, 06:21:28 PM
I think your description of Kuijken/Devos is very accurate. But curiously that "roughness" (on the part of Kuijken because I like Devos), it's the main reason why I have problems with those recordings. Never before or after them, I felt more insistently that Kuijken was a Baroque violinist invading the Classical repertoire. Classical music (I mean music from the so-called Classical period) is essentially about to please and entertain and I don't see Kuijken doing that with his nude tone. On the contrary, I think he loses a great part of the charm and sweetness of Mozart, without to gain in deep melancholy, as Steinberg, for instance... And that charm, sweetness, balance and respect for Classical proportions it's what I love in Podger/Cooper.  :)

I think that's an entirely understandable response, Antoine, and more thoughtful than mine; and it may well be that my preference is a preference for the inauthentic. Even so, it feels authentic, to me; I imagine Mozart grinning at the audacity of Kuijken's approach. The great thing is: we can have both.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: milk on November 28, 2011, 05:35:58 AM
I think that's an entirely understandable response, Antoine, and more thoughtful than mine; and it may well be that my preference is a preference for the inauthentic. Even so, it feels authentic, to me; I imagine Mozart grinning at the audacity of Kuijken's approach. The great thing is: we can have both.

This conversation inspired me to go back and listen to selections from both of these sets. I listened with more attention and derived greater enjoyment from them. Both of them. Thanks!
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: jlaurson on November 28, 2011, 06:47:13 AM
I recently picked up this as well, but haven't had a chance to give it a spin.  It's strange to see such a glaring error in grammar on an album cover.  It's a reminder that not every record company is English speaking.


Very typical plural-apostrophe-overcompensation  for Germanic-language countries.
Near my Munich pad there's a store that goes (and must have been going for some 20+ years) by the name of "Lady's Shoes" -- and I'm pretty sure that's not what they mean.  ;D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Geo Dude on December 08, 2011, 08:23:52 PM
Thank you to all of the participants in this thread.  It's been a fascinating, informative, and I will admit somewhat expensive thread up to this point.

I think your description of Kuijken/Devos is very accurate. But curiously that "roughness" (on the part of Kuijken because I like Devos), it's the main reason why I have problems with those recordings. Never before or after them, I felt more insistently that Kuijken was a Baroque violinist invading the Classical repertoire. Classical music (I mean music from the so-called Classical period) is essentially about to please and entertain and I don't see Kuijken doing that with his nude tone. On the contrary, I think he loses a great part of the charm and sweetness of Mozart, without to gain in deep melancholy, as Steinberg, for instance... And that charm, sweetness, balance and respect for Classical proportions it's what I love in Podger/Cooper.  :)

Thanks are in particular due to Antoine for this post which helped me settle on the first volume in the Podger set, which turned out to be exactly what I'm looking for.  Sweet toned without being overly sentimental, willing to take risks, yet still maintaining that classical charm...and what a great production job, too.  It grabbed me and made me want more, the way the Uchida/Steinberg set did.  And this one is 1. HIP and 2. Not just a one off!  I will definitely be picking up the rest of this set...at a slow pace, I hope!

Thanks are also in order to whoever it was that recommended this recording:



This is a wonderful, wonderful recording and has received several plays since arrival a few days ago.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 09, 2011, 05:31:28 AM

Thanks are also in order to whoever it was that recommended this recording:



This is a wonderful, wonderful recording and has received several plays since arrival a few days ago.

That was probably David Ross, IIRC he is one of two who were adamantly fond of that disk, the other being the long-missing Scarpia. I ordered that disk once on the AMP, and received an entirely different disk in its place. Never went back for another try; my loss, no doubt (although my Badura-Skoda/Festetics version hits the spot too).

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 09, 2011, 05:34:39 AM
(although my Badura-Skoda/Festetics version hits the spot too)

The piano-&-winds gem of the K.452, yes?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 09, 2011, 05:36:46 AM
But . . . the Festetics were a string quartet, weren't they? So they would be absent from the K.452, bien sûr . . . .
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 09, 2011, 05:39:04 AM
The piano-&-winds gem of the K.452, yes?

No, it wouldn't be there, Karl. There was a contemporaneous arrangement of that lovely piece as a Piano Quartet. Publishers will do what publishers will do. It is rarely recorded, but that would be a good one of it. Not Badura (he doesn't do it here) but the Sonnerie disk. :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 09, 2011, 05:40:51 AM
No, it wouldn't be there, Karl. There was a contemporaneous arrangement of that lovely piece as a Piano Quartet. Publishers will do what publishers will do. It is rarely recorded, but that would be a good one of it. Not Badura (he doesn't do it here) but the Sonnerie disk. :)

8)

Gotcha. Oh, but that's weird . . . Mozart knew what he was doing, and that wind writing is crème de la crème.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Florestan on December 09, 2011, 05:58:52 AM
Has anyone heard this?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Hov3OU5WL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Any comments? It's high on my wishlist as I haven't encountered a single disappointing Savall recording yet.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 09, 2011, 06:28:40 AM
Gotcha. Oh, but that's weird . . . Mozart knew what he was doing, and that wind writing is crème de la crème.

No doubt, but the nub of this is that society amateurs, who formed a huge percentage of the buying public, generally weren't wind players, they were keyboardists (ladies) and stringsmen (gents). So for a publisher it was automatic. In many cases it was the composer himself who did the arrangement. Not sure about this one though. :)

8)

Has anyone heard this?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Hov3OU5WL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Any comments? It's high on my wishlist as I haven't encountered a single disappointing Savall recording yet.

Sorry, Flori, I haven't done, but if I saw it I would have snapped it up long ago. I agree with you, never disappointed with Savall. :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 09, 2011, 06:36:07 AM
No doubt, but the nub of this is that society amateurs, who formed a huge percentage of the buying public, generally weren't wind players, they were keyboardists (ladies) and stringsmen (gents). So for a publisher it was automatic.

Ho capito.  Those were still the woolly days of mix-&-match, arrange, assign wilful opus numbers, cats & dogs living together . . . .
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Leon on December 09, 2011, 07:14:01 AM
Has anyone heard this?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Hov3OU5WL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Any comments? It's high on my wishlist as I haven't encountered a single disappointing Savall recording yet.

I have it:  Very good, better than Hogwood (IMO), but it won't displace this one as my favorite:



I might add, the reason why I prefer the Spering is 1) I happen to like very much the slower tempo in the Introitus, and having the option of hearing the movements as Mozart left them is a added feature.  But otherwise the Savall is highly recommended, and I might (?) even prefer his solists.

 :)



Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Coopmv on December 09, 2011, 10:02:12 AM
Has anyone heard this?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Hov3OU5WL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Any comments? It's high on my wishlist as I haven't encountered a single disappointing Savall recording yet.

I bought this recordings a while back.  IIRC, it is quite good ...
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: petrarch on December 09, 2011, 06:26:08 PM
Has anyone heard this?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Hov3OU5WL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Any comments? It's high on my wishlist as I haven't encountered a single disappointing Savall recording yet.

I have it; it is good, though I'm not that keen on Figueras' voice. FWIW, it is a rerelease of an older recording but now with remastering for SACD (I have the older one too).

For another interesting period performance there is this too:

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Coopmv on December 09, 2011, 06:39:24 PM
I have it; it is good, though I'm not that keen on Figueras' voice. FWIW, it is a rerelease of an older recording but now with remastering for SACD (I have the older one too).

For another interesting period performance there is this too:



Agree.  I think the late Figueras voice might be more suited for early music than Mozart Requiem from the high classical period ...
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on December 10, 2011, 12:30:32 AM
That Music Aeterna look quite interesting! :)

Sofar, but I'm a few years behind the curve on the latest recordings, my favourite full fledged HIP recording has been Bruno Weil's of Landon's edition:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51J0afL5VZL._SS500_.jpg)

It's so captivating, and with a boys' choir, that I wouldn't be easily persuaded to switch allegeances. :)

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Geo Dude on December 14, 2011, 05:07:26 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51DOXH0zZCL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61NiEZdvFPL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Earlier in the thread these two fine recordings were mentioned, and I would like to mention them again.  They came in the mail recently and it has been love at first listen for both recordings.  Wonderful works that certainly help strengthen Gurn's position that the idea that works prior to K270 aren't worth a listen is dead wrong.  Not to mention, they can both be picked up for under $4 on the market place!
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Leon on December 14, 2011, 08:33:46 AM
Oh, I find it short-sighted to think of the early works of Mozart as "juvenilia" or some such "pejorative" term.  Implying that they are of only historical interest as the young works of a prodigy, and not worthwhile as music - is not an completely accurate appraisal, IMO.  Of ours the violin concertos are well beyond juvenilia.

I have this recording:

(http://www.technodisco.net/img/tracks/t/ton-koopman/2803543-ton-koopman-from-kindersinfonie-to-bauernhochzeit.jpg)

- and enjoy it very much.  Even the very early works, not to say the works post 1771, have a touching charm that cannot help but please all, but the most curmudgeonly, listeners.

 :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: milk on January 17, 2012, 02:12:14 AM
New Bezuidenhout:
(http://www.canadacd.ca/images/covers/300/35549.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 17, 2012, 07:53:44 AM
New Bezuidenhout:
(http://www.canadacd.ca/images/covers/300/35549.jpg)

Yes! Totally renewed! He's skinny now and don't use glasses.  ;D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: milk on January 18, 2012, 12:31:32 AM
Yes! Totally renewed! He's skinny now and don't use glasses.  ;D
[/quote]
Ha! I like how no one misses a beat around here!
 
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on January 18, 2012, 12:47:05 AM
I kind of miss the Franz Peter look. ;D
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: milk on January 18, 2012, 12:58:05 AM
I kind of miss the Franz Peter look. ;D
Oh come on: he's got it going on with that hair!
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on January 18, 2012, 01:50:49 AM
Meh.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: milk on January 18, 2012, 02:56:45 AM
Meh.
Hmm. Well, whether or not he's got the look you want to know better, I'm glad he's continuing with the cycle. This is the fourth release I believe.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on January 18, 2012, 03:26:51 AM
This is the fourth release I believe.

It's Volume 3, and they're being released in numerical order. The "Strum and Drang" CD was for a different label and it contains works beyond the sonatas. :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: milk on January 18, 2012, 04:37:07 AM
It's Volume 3, and they're being released in numerical order. The "Strum and Drang" CD was for a different label and it contains works beyond the sonatas. :)
Right, I see what you mean: different label. The "Strum and Drang" Cd has sonatas K. 457 and K. 310 as well as fantasias and the Adagio in B minor. Well, I'll definitely be collecting everything in this series.
He seems to be in high demand these days.
Actually, I was lucky enough to catch him in Japan a couple of years ago performing a Mozart program.
There are not a lot of chances to see period performances over here!
 
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: jlaurson on January 18, 2012, 11:54:26 PM
Right, I see what you mean: different label. The "Strum and Drang" Cd has sonatas K. 457 and K. 310 as well as fantasias and the Adagio in B minor. Well, I'll definitely be collecting everything in this series.
He seems to be in high demand these days.
Actually, I was lucky enough to catch him in Japan a couple of years ago performing a Mozart program.
There are not a lot of chances to see period performances over here!
 

Heard him twice in short succession this summer... lovely -- even if the all-Beethoven program with Mullova was an unfortunate flop. And can't wait to get my ears on that Mozart again.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: mszczuj on February 18, 2012, 02:38:42 AM
No one have checked it so far?



I've just heard it on Grooveshark (there is no Confutatis alas):

http://grooveshark.com/#!/album/Mozart+Requiem/6557342

and must say that it seems to be a step in the right direction.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Leo K. on February 23, 2012, 09:35:46 AM
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pVkEY9BkQxs/T0Zpn0ZmL7I/AAAAAAAAZPM/OLvL8-eTcec/s1600/mozart+portada.PNG)(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-JqJTg32xnX0/T0ZpfgWldFI/AAAAAAAAZPE/m_EiHTK6zSY/s1600/mozart+contraportada.PNG)

This looks very interesting...anyone heard it?

 8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: mszczuj on February 23, 2012, 09:39:49 AM
No one have checked it so far?




I'm afraid search button is not the most believable tool to check what was in the thread so far.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on March 04, 2012, 01:23:46 PM
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4015023242654.jpg)

New! :)

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Clever Hans on March 05, 2012, 12:46:45 PM
I would be very surprised if we don't see some official Mozart concerto recordings from Bezuidenhout soon, since he has all of them in his repertoire, and collaboration on that with the Freiburg Baroque Orchestra has been mentioned in his plans on a few sites.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 05, 2012, 12:54:34 PM
I would be very surprised if we don't see some official Mozart concerto recordings from Bezuidenhout soon, since he has all of them in his repertoire, and collaboration on that with the Freiburg Baroque Orchestra has been mentioned in his plans on a few sites.

That would really be something to look forward to!

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 05, 2012, 01:05:16 PM
Even if it isn't Haydn! ; )
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 05, 2012, 01:09:56 PM
Even if it isn't Haydn! ; )

His little buddy is OK too... :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: milk on March 06, 2012, 08:09:11 AM
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4015023242654.jpg)

New! :)

Q
I downloaded this. I'm not enjoying it so far. The instrument is really low in the mix. It's definitely not a pleasant sounding fortepiano either.
Maybe I'll try again. I own and enjoy a lot of Schoonderwoerd recordings. 
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on March 15, 2012, 09:19:14 AM
.



Also at Amazon UK (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007EVQASO/?tag=goodmusicguideco-21).

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 15, 2012, 09:27:57 AM
.



Also at Amazon UK (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007EVQASO/?tag=goodmusicguideco-21).

Not that these aren't fine disks, but Consortium Classicum are a modern instrument ensemble. And a good one, I might add. :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on March 15, 2012, 09:35:58 AM
Consortium Classicum are a modern instrument ensemble.

8)

:o

My bad. Thanks for the letting me know, Gurn. :) I'd always assumed that this was a PI band.

*grumbles about slightly misleading ensemble names*
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 15, 2012, 09:49:36 AM
:o

My bad. Thanks for the letting me know, Gurn. :) I'd always assumed that this was a PI band.

*grumbles about slightly misleading ensemble names*

Yup. They fooled me at the first too. Still, I have many of their disks because a> they play a lot of unusual stuff (like Cartellieri, for example) and b> They are really very good. :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: jlaurson on March 23, 2012, 09:40:30 AM




New Work by Young Mozart Discovered and Performed


(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-FT_mLw3kthk/T2ygfKPTXgI/AAAAAAAAB48/7UQGL7MxQVI/s1600/Mozart_Allegro_new_piece_found_ionarts.png)

incl. excerpt from today's world premiere performance in Salzburg.

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/03/new-work-by-young-mozart-discovered-and.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/03/new-work-by-young-mozart-discovered-and.html)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 31, 2012, 03:40:03 PM
They doen't look to be on period instruments? Anyway, I do know just the thing! :)
I actually play this recording quite often - the charm of these pieces as well as the performances proves to be quite irresistable.

One caveat for collectors in relation to the title "Chamber sonatas" on the cover instead of "Church sonatas": the recording sticks to the sonatas with the instrumentation of a "church trio": two violins, bass and organ. The sonatas scored for additional wind instruments are excluded (K263, 278 and 329). A chamber organ is used and not a church organ. Still, this recording is a peach IMO. :)



Q

I'm shopping around for a period set of these works. This one that Que recommends, this one by the King's Consort:



and finally this one by Haselböck's group:



are the ones with the most immediate appeal for me. Has anyone been in a position to compare any of these yet? Or to include another for consideration?  I am keen on having the 2 violins, cello and organ quartet instrumentation. Medlam has that, although I only see 14 of the 17 on that disk, while the others have all 17. Still, that's not a deal breaker (unless my favorites are omitted!).

Suggestions welcome.

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on May 31, 2012, 09:46:37 PM
Suggestions welcome.

8)

King's is now on Helios. That's all.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Coopmv on June 02, 2012, 06:29:21 PM
King's is now on Helios. That's all.

Isn't Helios the budget label for Hyperion?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Brian on June 02, 2012, 07:15:25 PM
Isn't Helios the budget label for Hyperion?

Yes.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 03, 2012, 02:04:14 AM
King's is now on Helios. That's all.

Ah. I got it for $4US in "Used - Like New" from the AMP. Still wondering about others though.... :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 03, 2012, 07:06:46 AM
Ah. I got it for $4US in "Used - Like New" from the AMP. Still wondering about others though.... :)

Hi Gurn - well, I don't own these early Mozart church works (also may not of even heard them?); so quite interested in the comments, especially regarding PI performances - the King's Consort on Helios is certainly a bargain offering; I was also curious about the Chandos disc below w/ Genevieve Soly on the organ - a little more pricey and I'm assuming modern instruments (not sure?).  Dave :)

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/b8/84/fea2b2c008a09a7f3216a010.L.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 03, 2012, 07:30:44 AM
Hi Gurn - well, I don't own these early Mozart church works (also may not of even heard them?); so quite interested in the comments, especially regarding PI performances - the King's Consort on Helios is certainly a bargain offering; I was also curious about the Chandos disc below w/ Genevieve Soly on the organ - a little more pricey and I'm assuming modern instruments (not sure?).  Dave :)

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/b8/84/fea2b2c008a09a7f3216a010.L.jpg)

Dave,
These are surprisingly pleasant one movement sonatas. I don't have a PI version yet, I have the German Bach Soloists/Winschermann   & Daniel Chorzempa, which is the MI version on the Philips Complete Mozart Edition. A very fine version, to be sure, but not where my head is at these days. The Turovsky that you pictured is indeed MI, I have heard that it is quite good too, but not herd it myself. I don't think I would be going way out on a limb if I mentioned this group to you, which is the Haselböck players. I have them in several Haydn & Mozart disks and they are very fine. I was just looking for one with the minimal number of players this time. :)

8)



----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Beethoven9DausgaardSCO2009cover.jpg)
Swedish Chamber Orchestra \ Thomas Dausgaard - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 4th mvmt - Finale: Presto - Allegro assai
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on June 08, 2012, 09:02:41 AM
Mozart Fortepiano 101 [in five minutes] (in case anyone asks)

http://www.youtube.com/v/6UQM1YGDe5w
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on June 15, 2012, 10:01:22 AM
Cross-posting from WAYLT

Ooh, and here's one arranged for fortepiano and a small orcha-band. This one's more stately and less impish [compared to Staier's recording].

http://www.youtube.com/v/yWfvgAXCUAY

Has anyone heard other such arrangements?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 15, 2012, 11:25:13 AM
Well, that[i/] was certainly interesting! Very cool, Navneeth. I'll have to see if there is a CD of that, I would like to hear other stuff given that sort of treatment.  :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: kishnevi on July 21, 2012, 05:26:38 PM
found today in the local used CD store for $5.99  worth what I paid for it, but I'm not sure its so good that everyone else needs to rush out and find their own copy.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41IyBhadm1L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Mozart: Sonatas and Variations for Violin and Piano

Yuuko Shiokawa, violin (Mittenwald, Bavaria, mid 18th century)*
Andras Schiff, fortepiano (Anton Walter, Vienna 1780)**
recorded in the room in which Mozart was born***
recorded Mozart Museum, Salzburg, 27-30 January 1992

*described on the cover as "Mozart's concert violin", but the liner notes only trace its ownership from Nannerl, Mozart's sister, onward, without explaining where she got it from or why it is described the way it is; its current location (at least, as of the time of the recording), is the Mozart Museum (Mozart's birthplace) in Salzburg. It was restored (in the 1980s, probably, based on an inference from the liner notes), but left with enough original parts that it keeps the original A=421, allowing a deeper darker tone to the violin than usual.

** described on the cover as "Mozart's fortepiano", but the liner notes can only cite a tradition that it "once belonged to Mozart and was played by him during the last years of his life" and that the maker did not sign the instrument.  It too is (or was at the time of the recording) kept in the Mozart Museum.

***which may sound piquant, or reaching so far for authenticity that it becomes fake, but I think was simply a logistical necessity, since that is apparently the room in which the Museum keeps the fortepiano on display.  It does allow the acoustic a dry intimacy that conveys the fact that this music is being played in a private house and not a concert hall

Works performed  Sonata in G major K379; Sonata in e minor K304; Six variations in g minor on "Au bord d'un fontaine" K360; Sonata in B flat major K454

The liner notes, btw, mention that Schiff recorded a CD of solo keyboard works on the same fortepiano in 1991, and Amazon lists a slightly later PI recording of more Mozart--the "Kegelstatt" Clarinet Trio and two Piano Trios--released on Teldec/Das Alte Werk with Schiff and Shiokawa among the performers.

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Florestan on August 02, 2012, 02:54:56 AM
Cross-posting from WAYLT

Ooh, and here's one arranged for fortepiano and a small orcha-band. This one's more stately and less impish [compared to Staier's recording].

http://www.youtube.com/v/yWfvgAXCUAY

Has anyone heard other such arrangements?

That's very nice, although I suspect some liberties in respect to the score.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on August 02, 2012, 06:20:02 AM
That's very nice, although I suspect some liberties in respect to the score.

I'd agree with you, if I knew how to read scores and such. :D I was led to that particular clip from the one in which Staier plays the sonata (the last movement, specifically), and that's taking liberties most definitely!



On a slightly related note, here's a question, to whomever it may concern, that 's been nagging me for a while: is it just me or does the modern pianist (or HIPPI fortepianist, depending upon your world-view) accentuate the opening notes of the last movement differently?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on October 21, 2012, 06:58:40 AM
Repost!  :) I like this disc better and better - strongly recommended.

.



Quote from outhere-music.com:

It may seem surprising that after three decades of ‘early music’ research, critical discoveries can still be made about a great composer such as Mozart and particularly discoveries around his well-known masterpieces. This recording presents the première recording of the Grande Sonate, an anonymous arrangement for fortepiano and basset clarinet of Mozart’s beloved Clarinet Quintet in A major, K.581. Both the Clarinet Quintet and the Concerto in A major, K.622, were originally written for an instrument called the basset clarinet, which has four more chromatic notes at the bottom of its range than an ordinary clarinet. Since the manuscripts to both pieces were lost, clarinettists have had to make educated guesses about the passages that may have included these low notes. Significantly, this arrangement includes some of these basset notes, making it an important source for those wishing to restore the piece to its original form. In its incarnation as a sonata, it becomes a wonderful piece of chamber music which is especially compelling when played on instruments like those Mozart and Stadler (for whom it was composed) knew.

Awesome! :)

The basset-clarinet after Theodor Lotz that is used, looks similar to this reconstruction:

(http://www.schwenk-und-seggelke.de/fotos/instrumente/historisch_bassett.jpg)Basset Clarinet in A after a drawing of the instrument played by Anton Stadler and Theodor Lotz
The basset clarinet (in A, Bb, or sometimes C) is an instrument similar to the basset horn. It is the instrument for which Mozart composed his Clarinet Quintet K. 581 as well as his Clarinet Concerto K. 622. Unfortunately there are no surviving originals. It was developed around 1788 by Theodor Lotz, instrument maker to the Court of Vienna, in collaboration with Mozart's friend Anton Stadler (1753-1812). They extended the clarinet downwards by a minor third, just like on a basset horn, but including all the semitones, requiring 4 additional keys. Basset horns in those days were diatonic. The bore was angled twice where as the basset clarinet was short enough to be built straight. After Mozart's death the lowest notes of the concerto were transposed up an octave so it could be played on the much more common A clarinet.

Since there is no original instrument we could have measured up, we based our basset clarinet on an original drawing of Theodor Lotz' instrument, and on extensive experiments.

The drawing was found on a concert flyer for Stadler's concert in Riga in 1798. He is announced as an inventor as well as a virtuoso. The instrument features a bulbous bell ("Liebesfuß"), as it can be found on certain basset horns of the time. Our reconstruction is based on an A clarinet by H. Grenser of Dresden. Similar instruments in various pitches were made in the workshops of Johann Benjamin Eisenbrandt, Göttingen (before 1822), Johann Georg Braun, Mannheim (between 1816 and 1833), and others
.

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: San Antone on October 21, 2012, 07:44:59 AM
Repost!  :) I like this disc better and better - strongly recommended.

.



Quote from outhere-music.com:

It may seem surprising that after three decades of ‘early music’ research, critical discoveries can still be made about a great composer such as Mozart and particularly discoveries around his well-known masterpieces. This recording presents the première recording of the Grande Sonate, an anonymous arrangement for fortepiano and basset clarinet of Mozart’s beloved Clarinet Quintet in A major, K.581. Both the Clarinet Quintet and the Concerto in A major, K.622, were originally written for an instrument called the basset clarinet, which has four more chromatic notes at the bottom of its range than an ordinary clarinet. Since the manuscripts to both pieces were lost, clarinettists have had to make educated guesses about the passages that may have included these low notes. Significantly, this arrangement includes some of these basset notes, making it an important source for those wishing to restore the piece to its original form. In its incarnation as a sonata, it becomes a wonderful piece of chamber music which is especially compelling when played on instruments like those Mozart and Stadler (for whom it was composed) knew.

Awesome! :)

The basset-clarinet after Theodor Lotz that is used, looks similar to this reconstruction:

(http://www.schwenk-und-seggelke.de/fotos/instrumente/historisch_bassett.jpg)Basset Clarinet in A after a drawing of the instrument played by Anton Stadler and Theodor Lotz
The basset clarinet (in A, Bb, or sometimes C) is an instrument similar to the basset horn. It is the instrument for which Mozart composed his Clarinet Quintet K. 581 as well as his Clarinet Concerto K. 622. Unfortunately there are no surviving originals. It was developed around 1788 by Theodor Lotz, instrument maker to the Court of Vienna, in collaboration with Mozart's friend Anton Stadler (1753-1812). They extended the clarinet downwards by a minor third, just like on a basset horn, but including all the semitones, requiring 4 additional keys. Basset horns in those days were diatonic. The bore was angled twice where as the basset clarinet was short enough to be built straight. After Mozart's death the lowest notes of the concerto were transposed up an octave so it could be played on the much more common A clarinet.

Since there is no original instrument we could have measured up, we based our basset clarinet on an original drawing of Theodor Lotz' instrument, and on extensive experiments.

The drawing was found on a concert flyer for Stadler's concert in Riga in 1798. He is announced as an inventor as well as a virtuoso. The instrument features a bulbous bell ("Liebesfuß"), as it can be found on certain basset horns of the time. Our reconstruction is based on an A clarinet by H. Grenser of Dresden. Similar instruments in various pitches were made in the workshops of Johann Benjamin Eisenbrandt, Göttingen (before 1822), Johann Georg Braun, Mannheim (between 1816 and 1833), and others
.

Q

I have this one and love it:

(http://cdn.7static.com/static/img/sleeveart/00/000/872/0000087248_350.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2012, 07:52:35 AM
I have this one and love it:

(http://cdn.7static.com/static/img/sleeveart/00/000/872/0000087248_350.jpg)

I have that one too, and am also very fond of it. Excellent playing, great sound. A good example of a disk where lack of PI doesn't bring it down for me. :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2012, 07:55:29 AM
Repost!  :) I like this disc better and better - strongly recommended.

.



Quote from outhere-music.com:

It may seem surprising that after three decades of ‘early music’ research, critical discoveries can still be made about a great composer such as Mozart and particularly discoveries around his well-known masterpieces. This recording presents the première recording of the Grande Sonate, an anonymous arrangement for fortepiano and basset clarinet of Mozart’s beloved Clarinet Quintet in A major, K.581. Both the Clarinet Quintet and the Concerto in A major, K.622, were originally written for an instrument called the basset clarinet, which has four more chromatic notes at the bottom of its range than an ordinary clarinet. Since the manuscripts to both pieces were lost, clarinettists have had to make educated guesses about the passages that may have included these low notes. Significantly, this arrangement includes some of these basset notes, making it an important source for those wishing to restore the piece to its original form. In its incarnation as a sonata, it becomes a wonderful piece of chamber music which is especially compelling when played on instruments like those Mozart and Stadler (for whom it was composed) knew.

Awesome! :)

The basset-clarinet after Theodor Lotz that is used, looks similar to this reconstruction:

(http://www.schwenk-und-seggelke.de/fotos/instrumente/historisch_bassett.jpg)Basset Clarinet in A after a drawing of the instrument played by Anton Stadler and Theodor Lotz
The basset clarinet (in A, Bb, or sometimes C) is an instrument similar to the basset horn. It is the instrument for which Mozart composed his Clarinet Quintet K. 581 as well as his Clarinet Concerto K. 622. Unfortunately there are no surviving originals. It was developed around 1788 by Theodor Lotz, instrument maker to the Court of Vienna, in collaboration with Mozart's friend Anton Stadler (1753-1812). They extended the clarinet downwards by a minor third, just like on a basset horn, but including all the semitones, requiring 4 additional keys. Basset horns in those days were diatonic. The bore was angled twice where as the basset clarinet was short enough to be built straight. After Mozart's death the lowest notes of the concerto were transposed up an octave so it could be played on the much more common A clarinet.

Since there is no original instrument we could have measured up, we based our basset clarinet on an original drawing of Theodor Lotz' instrument, and on extensive experiments.

The drawing was found on a concert flyer for Stadler's concert in Riga in 1798. He is announced as an inventor as well as a virtuoso. The instrument features a bulbous bell ("Liebesfuß"), as it can be found on certain basset horns of the time. Our reconstruction is based on an A clarinet by H. Grenser of Dresden. Similar instruments in various pitches were made in the workshops of Johann Benjamin Eisenbrandt, Göttingen (before 1822), Johann Georg Braun, Mannheim (between 1816 and 1833), and others
.

Q

Great post, Que. Thanks for reminding me of this one. I moved it up in my Wish List to the top. I am curious how the Kegglestat sounds on here?  I have several good versions right now, but am always looking for a benchmark. :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: San Antone on October 21, 2012, 08:00:55 AM
I have that one too, and am also very fond of it. Excellent playing, great sound. A good example of a disk where lack of PI doesn't bring it down for me. :)

8)

Not PI?  I guess I assumed by use of Basset-Clarinet and involvement of conductor Roy Goodman at least some were period instruments.  Still a nice disc.

 :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2012, 08:21:56 AM
Not PI?  I guess I assumed by use of Basset-Clarinet and involvement of conductor Roy Goodman at least some were period instruments.  Still a nice disc.

 :)

Yeah, those guys are 'in the movement', but the Royal Liverpoolers are MI. They also played under Mackerras (fine Beethoven cycle) and did a good job too. SOme bands have it, some don't, I guess.  :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Scarpia on October 21, 2012, 08:27:55 AM
That transcription of the Clarinet Quintet for basset clarinet and fortepiano looks interesting.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: San Antone on October 21, 2012, 10:07:44 AM
I found another (what purports to be) period instrument recording of the Mozart Clarinet (Basset) Quintet and a couple of fragments -

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XxMEBduWL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Reviewed here (http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/March%201981/68/760011/MOZART.+Clarinet+Quintet+in+A+major,+K581.+Allegro+in+F+major,+K580b%E2%80%94fragment+(completed+Gerhard+Mass).+Rondo+in+A+major,+K581a%E2%80%94fragment+(completed+Otto+Bach).+Kurt+Birsak+basset+clarinet,+Jann+Engel+basset+horn,+Divertimento+Salzburg.+Cleves+D8007+(%C2%A35.50).+UK+distributor%3A+Gamut.) in Gramophone, there is some interesting historical context along with a generally good report of the disc.

The review also confirms that the strings use gut strings and curved bows accompanying the basset clarinet.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2012, 11:17:55 AM
I found another (what purports to be) period instrument recording of the Mozart Clarinet (Basset) Quintet and a couple of fragments -

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XxMEBduWL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Reviewed here (http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/March%201981/68/760011/MOZART.+Clarinet+Quintet+in+A+major,+K581.+Allegro+in+F+major,+K580b%E2%80%94fragment+(completed+Gerhard+Mass).+Rondo+in+A+major,+K581a%E2%80%94fragment+(completed+Otto+Bach).+Kurt+Birsak+basset+clarinet,+Jann+Engel+basset+horn,+Divertimento+Salzburg.+Cleves+D8007+(%C2%A35.50).+UK+distributor%3A+Gamut.) in Gramophone, there is some interesting historical context along with a generally good report of the disc.

The review also confirms that the strings use gut strings and curved bows accompanying the basset clarinet.

Oh yes, Divertimento Salzburg are super! They are usually led by Martin Haselböck, they've done a couple of nice Haydn disks on Orfeo. I've never sen this Mozart disk before. I'd like to have it. :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gordo on October 21, 2012, 04:09:20 PM
Few days ago, I posted this in the "New Releases" thread:

Quote
(http://www.clarinetclassics.com/shop/images/1227/CC0068-cover.jpg/)

Clarinet Quintet in A K581
Quintet fragments K581a, K580b, K516c
in completions by Robert Levin and Franz Beyer

Colin Lawson - Clarinet
The Revolutionary Drawing Room

Quote
Mozart created the medium of the Clarinet Quintet K581 by means of a process that involved a number of preliminary experimental fragments, all of which can also be heard on this disc. Like the Clarinet Concerto, the Quintet K581 was intended for Stadler’s basset clarinet in A, which was furnished with an additional four semitones at the bottom of the compass. Colin Lawson’s boxwood basset clarinet (modelled on Viennese instruments of the period) was especially created for him in 1988 by the Cambridge maker Daniel Bangham. For the Allegro in F K580b he plays the more brilliant clarinet in C and is joined by Michael Harris (basset horn). The Allegro K516c features the extremely rare Bb basset clarinet used elsewhere by Mozart only in the virtuoso obbligato to ‘Parto, parto’ from La Clemenza di Tito. Colin Lawson, described by BBC Music Magazine as ‘the doyen of period clarinettists’ explores Mozart’s original sound world in partnership with his colleagues from The Revolutionary Drawing Room.

http://www.clarinetclassics.com/shop/mozart-2/
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Clarinet%2BClassics/CC0068

It looks quite interesting, IMO.

These guys of "The Revolutionary Drawing Room" have recorded several discs on CPO, including some remarkable Boccherini.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: San Antone on October 21, 2012, 04:18:00 PM
Few days ago, I posted this in the "New Releases" thread:

http://www.clarinetclassics.com/shop/mozart-2/
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Clarinet%2BClassics/CC0068

It looks quite interesting, IMO.

These guys of "The Revolutionary Drawing Room" have recorded several discs on CPO, including some remarkable Boccherini.

I am familiar with their Boccherini, and agree with you; but I just discovered that they have also recorded a good bit of Donizetti's string quartets, maybe all of them (very interesting).
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2012, 05:02:31 PM
Few days ago, I posted this in the "New Releases" thread:

It looks quite interesting, IMO.

These guys of "The Revolutionary Drawing Room" have recorded several discs on CPO, including some remarkable Boccherini.

Indeed, IMO too! And that's not to mention the superb Donizetti 4tets they did, also on cpo. And Colin Lawson is top shelf too. Altogether looks like a 'gotta have it'!

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Leo K. on October 27, 2012, 07:38:00 AM
Few days ago, I posted this in the "New Releases" thread:

http://www.clarinetclassics.com/shop/mozart-2/
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Clarinet%2BClassics/CC0068

It looks quite interesting, IMO.

These guys of "The Revolutionary Drawing Room" have recorded several discs on CPO, including some remarkable Boccherini.

This disk is a recording I was waiting for in a long time, a chance to have these fragments (with completions) in one place with the finished quintet, I'm real excited thanks!

 8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 27, 2012, 08:06:23 PM
The concept of Mozart in period performances is a curate's egg, to say the least. Mozart lived and worked in a transitional era that saw the demise of some types of instruments and the emergence of others (like the clarinet and the fortepiano) that were to undergo significant and very fast improvements even during his own short lifespan. Therefore a performance practice based on instruments alone cannot really be circumscribed. And we should remember that Mozart himself was a great fan of the new instruments. Their tonal characteristics were hugely exciting for him both as a composer and a  player. Mozart was an enthusiastic proponent of modernism in instrument building and playing. A Mozart HIP can only be a transitional, even fictional affair.

That being said, the most successful performances of Mozart's music in HIP often stem from solo instruments or chamber ensembles. Up to an extent these can extend to concertos. The one systematic failure of HIP Mozart is the symphonies. It's not so much the size of the ensembles as the blend of instruments and orchestral balances that fail to satisfy. IMHO Mozart was ahead of his time in composing for the orchestra. HIP WAM symphonies sound astringent, bass-deficient and incapable of blending satisfyingly. Mozart composed long musical phrases, often with sustained phrase-ends. The hiccupy, borborygmic sounds of the old instruments' harmonie is at odds with the sustained notes asked of the strings. In return, the acidic, pungent sound of PI strings cannot blend with the mellow sound of period horns and flutes. The decision of some prominent HIP conductors like Harnoncourt to record these works with a modern orchestra should be taken into consideration. I yet have to hear a recording of those works on old instruments that sounds like Mozart. It doesn't help that the best-known proponents like Brüggen, Pinnock and Gardiner seem incapable of expressing feelings in music.

Whenever I hear Haydn symphonies played in HIP, I hear a tonal (timbral, harmonic and ryhmic) justification. It makes musical sense, even to a high degree. I just don't hear it in Mozart's most advanced orchestral works. The times they were a-changin'.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on October 28, 2012, 12:51:18 AM
I yet have to hear a recording of those works on old instruments that sounds like Mozart.

Granted all the uncertainties you mention here (and you're far better informed than I), how do we know what Mozart should sound like? I pick this sentence to comment on because I'd be tempted to say the same thing about modern instrument recordings - that is, I feel that none of them sounds like Mozart. I suspect that what we both really mean is that they (in your case the old and in my case the new) don't sound like our idea of what Mozart should sound like. Although I'm quite sure you're right in the general thrust of what you say, nevertheless my favourite HIP Mozart performances 'feel' authentic to me. I sense a (possibly illusory) rightness in them that I find very satisfying - they're more effective at enabling me to imagine Mozart is in the room, as it were.

I think what I'm suggesting is that I don't listen to HIP Mozart recordings because they're authentic, but because the most successful of them make me feel as if they are; and the experience (for me) trumps the reasoning.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Que on October 28, 2012, 02:03:48 AM
The concept of Mozart in period performances is a curate's egg, to say the least. Mozart lived and worked in a transitional era that saw the demise of some types of instruments and the emergence of others (like the clarinet and the fortepiano) that were to undergo significant and very fast improvements even during his own short lifespan. Therefore a performance practice based on instruments alone cannot really be circumscribed. And we should remember that Mozart himself was a great fan of the new instruments. Their tonal characteristics were hugely exciting for him both as a composer and a  player. Mozart was an enthusiastic proponent of modernism in instrument building and playing. A Mozart HIP can only be a transitional, even fictional affair.

In everything you say, I see all the more reason to perform on the instruments Mozart wrote for. Music that is transitional instruments-wise runs the risk of being stuffed in a mold it doesn't belong in. And if Mozart was so keen on the instruments, their sound and their characteristics, why shouldn't we?  :) Basically your reasoning is: things changed, so it doesn't matter. A fascination for innovations in instruments (as I explained before in the case of Beethoven's keyboard music) does not mean that it's natural to play on later versions of instruments that the composer was not familiar with. And no, composers are no psychics, unfortunately. 8)

Quote
That being said, the most successful performances of Mozart's music in HIP often stem from solo instruments or chamber ensembles. Up to an extent these can extend to concertos. The one systematic failure of HIP Mozart is the symphonies. It's not so much the size of the ensembles as the blend of instruments and orchestral balances that fail to satisfy. IMHO Mozart was ahead of his time in composing for the orchestra. HIP WAM symphonies sound astringent, bass-deficient and incapable of blending satisfyingly. Mozart composed long musical phrases, often with sustained phrase-ends. The hiccupy, borborygmic sounds of the old instruments' harmonie is at odds with the sustained notes asked of the strings. In return, the acidic, pungent sound of PI strings cannot blend with the mellow sound of period horns and flutes. The decision of some prominent HIP conductors like Harnoncourt to record these works with a modern orchestra should be taken into consideration. I yet have to hear a recording of those works on old instruments that sounds like Mozart. It doesn't help that the best-known proponents like Brüggen, Pinnock and Gardiner seem incapable of expressing feelings in music.

Whenever I hear Haydn symphonies played in HIP, I hear a tonal (timbral, harmonic and ryhmic) justification. It makes musical sense, even to a high degree. I just don't hear it in Mozart's most advanced orchestral works. The times they were a-changin'.

Though I share your admiration for Harnoncourt's RCO recordings, I don't hear a failure in the symphonies. I think what you hear is that in the symphonies a HIP performance makes the biggest difference is emotional meaning/colour. You might be attached to the "Romantic" feel of the old style performances, and you are entirely entitled to do so! :) But what the HIP performances show is that these are not late Classical or Romantic symphonies, though some of the last symphonies stand apart from the rest in this respect.

As for performances: try Hogwood. But he also will present the majority of Mozart's symphonies as bubbly, witty and intimate affairs. To me in retrospect Harnoncourt's RCO recordings, however so beautiful, are not giving an entirely true picture of Mozart: more weighty and straight laced, also too much of an Haydnesque approach - a composer that is still Harnoncourt real forte in the Classical era IMO.

BTW since when do gut strings produce an "acidic" sound compared to metal wired strings? ::) The opposite is actually true: gut strings produce a gentler, softer, more sonorous sound. The only thing is that their tuning tends to be less stable.

But, that being al said: if you don't like the sound of it, nobody is going to stop you from making a different choice!  :)
If it doesn't fit your preference, so be it. I just don't agree with your rationalizations. 8) And I honestly don't think that your arguments are necessarily connected with Mozart in particular.

Q
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on October 28, 2012, 07:53:45 AM
BTW since when do gut strings produce an "acidic" sound compared to metal wired strings?

Gobs of recordings with gut strings sound acidic, or to my ears, "steely". Most notoriously Hogwood, Pinnock, Goebel, sometimes Gardiner, etc... The fault could lie in the recorded medium of course but if that's all many of us have to go on, then what do we do?

I've been reading of this criticism since day one of the mainstreaming of HIP. It's not really a secret.

Certainly many HIP recordings have over the years tamed this problem to a large degree (Herreweghe, Veldhoven, Quatuor Mosaïques, to name just a few) but taming the problem only serves to highlight the issue.   

Quote
But, that being al said: if you don't like the sound of it, nobody is going to stop you from making a different choice!  :)

But I think sometimes that's a bit too simplistic a come-back. I've said it before, Mozart's symphonic writing makes such novel use of instrumentation that it's obvious he's stretching beyond the limitations of his orchestras. He's attempting to be forward-thinking in a sea if inhibitions. I haven't heard a single HIP symphonic Mozart recording (symphony/concerto/opera, etc...) over the years that equals Mozart's unique vision (and I've owned a boat load of them).

In a sense I think that's what André is getting at. And I think it's a fair criticism.

Unfortunately criticizing HIP seems to have the effect of circling the wagons. But if anyone else can be criticized, then so can HIP.

EDIT: and the usual disclaimer: I'm an avowed HIPster! :)

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Scarpia on October 28, 2012, 08:13:54 AM
I think what I'm suggesting is that I don't listen to HIP Mozart recordings because they're authentic, but because the most successful of them make me feel as if they are; and the experience (for me) trumps the reasoning.

Same here.  I think that is important that Mozart is performed on period instruments because it tells us what Mozart was expecting to hear as he wrote those works.  Such insights are valuable.  But in the end I enjoy recordings of some PI ensembles because I like the sounds of those instruments and find the performances compelling.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Mandryka on October 28, 2012, 08:35:33 AM
The concept of Mozart in period performances is a curate's egg, to say the least. Mozart lived and worked in a transitional era that saw the demise of some types of instruments and the emergence of others (like the clarinet and the fortepiano) that were to undergo significant and very fast improvements even during his own short lifespan. Therefore a performance practice based on instruments alone cannot really be circumscribed. And we should remember that Mozart himself was a great fan of the new instruments. Their tonal characteristics were hugely exciting for him both as a composer and a  player. Mozart was an enthusiastic proponent of modernism in instrument building and playing. A Mozart HIP can only be a transitional, even fictional affair.

That being said, the most successful performances of Mozart's music in HIP often stem from solo instruments or chamber ensembles. Up to an extent these can extend to concertos. The one systematic failure of HIP Mozart is the symphonies. It's not so much the size of the ensembles as the blend of instruments and orchestral balances that fail to satisfy. IMHO Mozart was ahead of his time in composing for the orchestra. HIP WAM symphonies sound astringent, bass-deficient and incapable of blending satisfyingly. Mozart composed long musical phrases, often with sustained phrase-ends. The hiccupy, borborygmic sounds of the old instruments' harmonie is at odds with the sustained notes asked of the strings. In return, the acidic, pungent sound of PI strings cannot blend with the mellow sound of period horns and flutes. The decision of some prominent HIP conductors like Harnoncourt to record these works with a modern orchestra should be taken into consideration. I yet have to hear a recording of those works on old instruments that sounds like Mozart. It doesn't help that the best-known proponents like Brüggen, Pinnock and Gardiner seem incapable of expressing feelings in music.

Whenever I hear Haydn symphonies played in HIP, I hear a tonal (timbral, harmonic and ryhmic) justification. It makes musical sense, even to a high degree. I just don't hear it in Mozart's most advanced orchestral works. The times they were a-changin'.

I think what you say about Harnoncourt is slightly misleading because he has recorded the Prague symphony with CMV. But it's true that he's recorded 39 through 41 with VPO more recny, and I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for prompting me to investigate.

Have you heard those VPO records (they're on DVD)? Or were you thinking only of the Concertgebouw CDs?

I like that CMW Prague symphony. Another HIP record I like is Bruggern's two orchestras symphony 40, and his Linz Symphony. I think you're slightly unfair about Bruggen.


Your point about blend is interesting, though the textures that the HIP orchestras tend to produce may be valid, more valid in fact.

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: San Antone on October 28, 2012, 08:53:27 AM
Gobs of recordings with gut strings sound acidic, or to my ears, "steely". Most notoriously Hogwood, Pinnock, Goebel, sometimes Gardiner, etc... The fault could lie in the recorded medium of course but if that's all many of us have to go on, then what do we do?

I've been reading of this criticism since day one of the mainstreaming of HIP. It's not really a secret.

You may read this criticism but to my ears it does not hold true.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Scarpia on October 28, 2012, 08:57:51 AM
Your point about blend is interesting, though the textures that the HIP orchestras tend to produce may be valid, more valid in fact.

The inappropriate use of the word "valid" to describe such performances is the source of the trouble.  Whatever performance allows a listener to appreciate what Mozart created is "valid" to him or her.  More often then not I find myself getting more out of HIP performances, but I would scarcely characterize them as more "valid" in any objective sense.  They may be a closer approximation of what Mozart expected to hear, but there is more in that music than can be heard in any one performance.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Elgarian on October 28, 2012, 09:56:54 AM
The inappropriate use of the word "valid" to describe such performances is the source of the trouble.

Spot on. Heck, even among HIPsters there's substantial disagreement. Remember all that fuss a while back about Viviana Sofronizky's recordings of the piano concertos? For me, and some others, it seemed as if a vivid Mozartian light had suddenly switched on. When I listen to them I feel as if I have a direct link to Mozart's intentions. It's an illusion, surely (and that's why these questions of 'validity' are so misleading) - but an illusion that draws me tightly into the music and that's what counts. For others they didn't work very well at all, and no amount of discussion about validity is likely to change such responses.

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Mandryka on October 28, 2012, 11:35:08 AM
The inappropriate use of the word "valid" to describe such performances is the source of the trouble.  Whatever performance allows a listen to appreciate what Mozart created is "valid" to him or her.  More often then not I find myself getting more out of HIP performances, but I would scarcely characterize them as more "valid" in any objective sense.  They may be a closer approximation of what Mozart expected to hear, but there is more in that music than can be heard in any one performance.

I don't think there's any disagreement between us. 

Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 29, 2012, 03:38:24 PM
Of Harnoncourt's Mozart symphonies I have the COA and the COE (the latter is more to my taste, having a better internal flow to them). I also attended a concert in which he played the 25th,  40th and concerto 16 in Amsterdam. I recall how jolting the effect was.

I know both the Hogwood and Pinnock sets. I sold Pinnock, kept only copies of 38 and 39. Norrington, another HIP apostle, has recorded some in Stuttgart with the SWR. I have kept 25, 32 and 38. To my ears the best Mozart cycle I heard was recorded by Hans Graf with the Mozarteum Orchestra. No revelations, but no dispappointment, and a very intelligent layout. It's a small orchestra, which suits the music, and the timbres are just right. IMO the Salzburg Mozarteum Orchestra can be considered a HIP group in its own way. Founded in 1841, it has played Mozart non-stop for the last 171 years !
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: San Antone on October 29, 2012, 04:10:42 PM
To my ears the best Mozart cycle I heard was recorded by Hans Graf with the Mozarteum Orchestra. No revelations, but no dispappointment, and a very intelligent layout. It's a small orchestra, which suits the music, and the timbres are just right. IMO the Salzburg Mozarteum Orchestra can be considered a HIP group in its own way. Founded in 1841, it has played Mozart non-stop for the last 171 years !

I know some of these recordings; there's a near complete set of the symphonies by them with Graf on Spotify.  You're right they are pleasant recordings.

 :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Mandryka on October 30, 2012, 12:46:28 AM
Of Harnoncourt's Mozart symphonies I have the COA and the COE (the latter is more to my taste, having a better internal flow to them). I also attended a concert in which he played the 25th,  40th and concerto 16 in Amsterdam. I recall how jolting the effect was.


I expect he's  doing it  deliberately, he probably thinks you could do with a good jolting. You know he believes  that romantic interpretations of baroque music make the music too smooth and easy, with the emphasis on luxuriant long lines, legato, and dissonances understated. He thinks that this denudes the  music of some of its meaning, and reduces it to just palatable, easy to eat, ear candy. Pap. At his best, his Bach is full of jolts and dissonances.

 He may well feel the same about Mozart. That's part of what I meant by suggesting that the textures that repel you may be "valid."

One thing that interested me was that the one late Mozart symphony he did record with CMV he didn't record afterwards as far as I know (38).
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: xochitl on October 30, 2012, 01:53:43 AM
his don giovanni commendatore scene certainly scared the **** outta me
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: mszczuj on October 30, 2012, 02:45:46 AM
I know both the Hogwood and Pinnock sets. I sold Pinnock,

I haven't heard Pinnock yet but for me Jakob ter Linden is much more exciting than Hogwoood.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on October 30, 2012, 08:08:52 AM
his don giovanni commendatore scene certainly scared the **** outta me

Which performance is that?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: xochitl on October 31, 2012, 03:30:17 AM
Which performance is that?
(http://c3.cduniverse.ws/resized/250x500/music/696/2556696.jpg)

but i think the one on youtube may be even better
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on October 31, 2012, 03:43:46 AM
(http://c3.cduniverse.ws/resized/250x500/music/696/2556696.jpg)

but i think the one on youtube may be even better

Thank you.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on November 23, 2012, 10:47:55 AM
Depending upon where you're looking it was either released recently or is to be released in a month or two:



Has anyone heard it yet?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2012, 10:51:09 AM
Depending upon where you're looking it was either released recently or is to be released in a month or two:



Has anyone heard it yet?

Thanks, Nav. Wish-listing that was a no-brainer!  :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: petrarch on November 23, 2012, 01:14:15 PM
This one sounds interesting, even though fortepiano is not, ahem, my forte:

(https://www.outhere-music.com/data/cds/2845/BIG.JPG)

https://outhere-music.com/store-ZZT_306/W_A__Mozart-Pieces_for_two_fortepianos-Alexei_Lubimov__Yury_Martynov.html
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2012, 01:22:49 PM
This one sounds interesting, even though fortepiano is not, ahem, my forte:

(https://www.outhere-music.com/data/cds/2845/BIG.JPG)

https://outhere-music.com/store-ZZT_306/W_A__Mozart-Pieces_for_two_fortepianos-Alexei_Lubimov__Yury_Martynov.html

Yes, it does sound interesting. Lubimov is a well-regarded Mozartian, I like his sonata cycle a lot. Martynov is new to me. The choices of music look good. A transcription of the Piano 4tet into a 2 piano work is an intriguing idea. :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: PaulSC on November 23, 2012, 02:57:59 PM
Martynov is new to me.
I was curious and found the following (might as well share it here):
Quote
YURY MARTYNOV (pianoforte) graduated from the Moscow Conservatory (piano and organ) with the Diploma of Excellence. He finished then a postgraduate class with Pr. Voskresensky to become assistant professor in 1994. In 1993 - 1994 he also studied harpsichord and basso continuo with Pr. Viunitsky in Paris at the Claude Debussy Conservatoire and the Conservatoire Nationale Jean-Wiener and graduated from both with a gold medal.
He won First Prizes at the most important international competitions: Maria Canals (Barcelona, 1991); Ennio Porrino (Cagliari, 1993); W.A. Mozart for pianoforte (Salzburg, 1999) and Second Prize at Concours Ville d'Epinal (1995).

Y. Martynov gives solo recitals and chamber concerts in Spain, Italy, Greece, Germany, France and Japan; takes part in major festivals in Russia and Europe such as: Festspiele Potsdam Sans-Souci, Athene Music Festival, Marathon Madrid and others. Apart from the Playel-Trio he performs with such musicians as Peter Schreier, Natalia Gutman, Alexander Rudin and also makes many radio and CD recordings. As a guest soloist he regularly appears with various orchestras. In 2002 he gave a unique recital with the Lithuanian Chamber Orchestra (conductor - Saulius Sondetzkis), performing concerts of G.F.Haendel, C.P.E.Bach and L.v.Beethoven on three different instruments (organ, harpsichord and modern piano) at one concert.

Y. Martynov is a professor for piano and historical fortepiano at the Moscow State Conservatory and is regularly invited to lead international master-classes.
http://www.playel-trio.narod.ru/musicians/
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: milk on December 01, 2012, 06:46:16 AM
Looking forward to spending some time with this:
(http://www.demuziekdragerij.com/img/p/534-604-thickbox.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on December 01, 2012, 06:52:05 AM
Looking forward to spending some time with this:

Thanks for reminding me. I have a full-length concert, still not listened to, from which, I think, those may have been taken. (Is that live from Schwetzingen, BTW?)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gordo on December 01, 2012, 08:47:06 AM
Looking forward to spending some time with this:
(http://www.demuziekdragerij.com/img/p/534-604-thickbox.jpg)

Voilá!


 http://www.youtube.com/v/l0aBhRxA9HA

Playlist:
__

Mozart: Freiburg Baroque Orchestra at the Schwetzingen festival

00:00 • Der Schauspieldirektor, KV. 486: Ouverture
06:00 • Piano concerto no. 17 in G major, KV. 453
35:37 • Idomeneo, KV 366: Musique de ballet

• Kristian Bezuidenhout: fortepiano

http://www.youtube.com/v/5aeLhUEfejg

Playlist:
__

Mozart: Freiburg Baroque Orchestra at the Schwetzingen festival

00:00 • Piano concerto no. 22 in E flat major, KV 482
00:00 • Encores

• Kristian Bezuidenhout: fortepiano

Freiburg Baroque Orchestra
Conducted by Petra Müllejans
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Leo K. on December 03, 2012, 03:48:54 PM
I've been enjoying this disk, new to my collection, "Mozart: Evening With Jacquins" with Gilles Thome:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51a%2BrJjGxzL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)



There were two pieces that attracted me to this disk. First, the comedic scene "Liebes Mandel, wo is's Bandel" K. 441, and second, the basset horn concerto fragment K.621b, a fragment I've always wanted to hear, since first reading about it some twenty years ago.

The disk is a joy. I’m listening to the second disk first, for the fragment and K.441. The fragment is a fascinating look into Mozart’s workshop, and played very well, with balance, transparency and lightness. The sound of the basset horn ravishing in tone and organic texture. What an interesting listen!

“Liebes Mandel, wo is's Bandel” trio  is one of my favorite Mozart works. It’s such a focused microcosm of his operatic wit and style. For years, this is the record I knew this work from, a treasured record in my collection:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61KvGza7pvL._SL500_.gif)

To my surprise and enjoyment, the Gilles Thome version equals the Seraphim LP account if not betters it. What a great thing it is to have this trio setting in better sound and released on a record once again!
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 03, 2012, 06:04:41 PM
I've been enjoying this disk, new to my collection, "Mozart: Evening With Jacquins" with Gilles Thome:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51a%2BrJjGxzL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)



There were two pieces that attracted me to this disk. First, the comedic scene "Liebes Mandel, wo is's Bandel" K. 441, and second, the basset horn concerto fragment K.621b, a fragment I've always wanted to hear, since first reading about it some twenty years ago.

The disk is a joy. I’m listening to the second disk first, for the fragment and K.441. The fragment is a fascinating look into Mozart’s workshop, and played very well, with balance, transparency and lightness. The sound of the basset horn ravishing in tone and organic texture. What an interesting listen!

“Liebes Mandel, wo is's Bandel” trio  is one of my favorite Mozart works. It’s such a focused microcosm of his operatic wit and style. For years, this is the record I knew this work from, a treasured record in my collection:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61KvGza7pvL._SL500_.gif)

To my surprise and enjoyment, the Gilles Thome version equals the Seraphim LP account if not betters it. What a great thing it is to have this trio setting in better sound and released on a record once again!

Leo, those are among my very favorite disks!  I took a flyer on the 'Soiree' disk at BRO because it had the notturnos on it and I hadn't ever heard them. I got way more than I ever bargained for with the set though, so many very nice things and so well presented. One of the finest artistic efforts I ever ran across.

And the "Der Heitere Mozart" is one of my favorites too. I have a friend in Vienna who tells me that this is the preferred version of these songs because the 4 singers (excellent all!) clearly know the dialect and sound like Austrians (even though they aren't, I believe). Still, on the ones that appear on both, like "Bona nox" (bista recta ox! :D ) I like the Thome equally. These little songs humanize Mozart for me, and the full works on there make him, paradoxically, both accessible and unique. I need to go spin those rascals, it's been a while. :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Leo K. on December 05, 2012, 08:08:27 PM
Leo, those are among my very favorite disks!  I took a flyer on the 'Soiree' disk at BRO because it had the notturnos on it and I hadn't ever heard them. I got way more than I ever bargained for with the set though, so many very nice things and so well presented. One of the finest artistic efforts I ever ran across.

And the "Der Heitere Mozart" is one of my favorites too. I have a friend in Vienna who tells me that this is the preferred version of these songs because the 4 singers (excellent all!) clearly know the dialect and sound like Austrians (even though they aren't, I believe). Still, on the ones that appear on both, like "Bona nox" (bista recta ox! :D ) I like the Thome equally. These little songs humanize Mozart for me, and the full works on there make him, paradoxically, both accessible and unique. I need to go spin those rascals, it's been a while. :)

8)

Gurn, how great you are a fan too! I'm surprised I hadn't heard of the Soirée disk till now, but so it goes! All this time a recording of the basset horn concerto fragment was out there :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Leo K. on December 05, 2012, 08:29:09 PM
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/12/06/9esusa6a.jpg)

What an amazing disk! Only halfway through, but the sound of a Johann Zahler fortepiano is very interesting.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2012, 04:23:21 AM
(http://www.demuziekdragerij.com/img/p/534-604-thickbox.jpg)

Thanks for reminding me. I have a full-length concert, still not listened to, from which, I think, those may have been taken. (Is that live from Schwetzingen, BTW?)

There is no information in the booklet about where and when these performances were recorded but they don't sound live. In the liner notes Bezuidenhout says "Early in the planning of the sessions, we decided that the microphone placement would be very different from the traditional set-ups." So, studio recordings made, I assume, shortly before or after the Schwetzingen concert. By the way, we live near Schwetzingen and have heard many concerts in the Schlosstheater (palace theater) adjacent to the palace. The palace, rococo theater and the grounds are beautiful. The small theater (seats between 450 and 550 depending on the type of performance) is perfect for Baroque and Classical-era music with small groups and chamber orchestras. At 6:16 in the second video you can see how small the stage is.

Here's a pic of the palace (the theater is to the far left, half hidden by the trees):

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/sep2012/SchlossSchwetzingen.jpg)



Sarge
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Brian on December 09, 2012, 07:10:18 AM
There is no information in the booklet about where and when these performances were recorded but they don't sound live.

There isn't?! Harmonia Mundi always includes that info... if it came in a 'digipak,' pull the booklet out of the case and look at the back cover.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: kishnevi on December 09, 2012, 07:26:23 AM
The booklet says they were recorded in May 2012, in the Freiburg Ensemblehaus.

BTW,  this one (or at least my copy) is not a digipak, but a jewel case inside a slipcover.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on December 09, 2012, 09:09:48 AM
Thanks for the details, Sarge and Jeffrey. I realised yesterday that both sets couldn't have been from the same performance (at least large portions of it), since the Schwetzingen concert was conducted from the keyboard à la Mozart.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: jlaurson on December 13, 2012, 11:32:04 AM

And the "Der Heitere Mozart" is one of my favorites too. I have a friend in Vienna who tells me that this is the preferred version of these songs because the 4 singers (excellent all!) clearly know the dialect and sound like Austrians (even though they aren't, I believe). Still, on the ones that appear on both, like "Bona nox" (bista recta ox! :D ) I like the Thome equally. These little songs humanize Mozart for me, and the full works on there make him, paradoxically, both accessible and unique. I need to go spin those rascals, it's been a while. :)

8)

Walter Berry very  much is Viennese through and through. Although real authenticity would mean a Salzburg accent, which is quite different... closer to southern Bavarian.
Had an LP of that as a kid (but no record player) - so my parents made me give it to Georg Ratzinger as a present (yes, the brother). Still remember all the bawdy stuff about digestion, though. And the 'donkey-like Martin' song.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Leo K. on December 15, 2012, 07:37:56 AM
Walter Berry very  much is Viennese through and through. Although real authenticity would mean a Salzburg accent, which is quite different... closer to southern Bavarian.
Had an LP of that as a kid (but no record player) - so my parents made me give it to Georg Ratzinger as a present (yes, the brother). Still remember all the bawdy stuff about digestion, though. And the 'donkey-like Martin' song.

Wow, Georg Ratzinger got your copy of that lp as a gift? What a cool story.

I first heard this lp as a teenager in the 80s, and it was a revelation when considering the usual suspects in Mozart's catalogue. It was a new world for me. Great stuff  8)



Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: ChamberNut on December 23, 2012, 04:28:18 PM
Does Mozart opera performance in HIP mean the tenor males get 'castratoed'?

Who's signing up?  :o
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 23, 2012, 05:41:54 PM
Does Mozart opera performance in HIP mean the tenor males get 'castratoed'?

Who's signing up?  :o

:D  No, actually the castrati parts were mezzo-soprano or contralto, not really a tenor thing. Mozart's used a castrato in Idomeneo in Munich in 1780. Note that his next (and final) opera seria was La Clemenza di Tito in 1791, the castrato was Domenico Bedini who died in 1795. That opera was not something that Mozart really wanted to do, but it was for the Imperial Coronation (Leopold II) so he had to do it. The part has been sung by a woman in drag ever since, as far as I know (it was in every version I've seen).

Somewhere there is a recording (available on line, IIRC) of the last known true castrato who died right around 1900. You could sense the power in his voice even with that crude recording equipment!

8) 

PS - Oh, you were just kidding?   ::)  :)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: ChamberNut on December 23, 2012, 05:56:35 PM
:D  No, actually the castrati parts were mezzo-soprano or contralto, not really a tenor thing. Mozart's used a castrato in Idomeneo in Munich in 1780. Note that his next (and final) opera seria was La Clemenza di Tito in 1791, the castrato was Domenico Bedini who died in 1795. That opera was not something that Mozart really wanted to do, but it was for the Imperial Coronation (Leopold II) so he had to do it. The part has been sung by a woman in drag ever since, as far as I know (it was in every version I've seen).

Somewhere there is a recording (available on line, IIRC) of the last known true castrato who died right around 1900. You could sense the power in his voice even with that crude recording equipment!

8) 

PS - Oh, you were just kidding?   ::)  :)

Yes!!  :D  I actually thought they banned castrato prior to Mozart's time, but I learn something new every day. 

Sounds like a name of a Hollywood movie or TV series:   The Last Castrato
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 23, 2012, 06:36:45 PM
Yes!!  :D  I actually thought they banned castrato prior to Mozart's time, but I learn something new every day. 

Sounds like a name of a Hollywood movie or TV series:   The Last Castrato

[Rod Serling-esque voiceover]
They called him Guido.
His voice could shatter glass while at the same time melting your heart away.
He made millions while ballsy singers starved.
The looks, the Voice... he was; The Last Castrato
 
:)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: milk on February 10, 2013, 08:18:56 AM
New Bezuidenhout:
(http://www.fishfinemusic.com.au/product_images/c/993/MI0003462033__50216_std.jpg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: San Antone on May 10, 2013, 01:58:04 AM
I wasn't aware of this recording, which appears to be OOP but available from sellers as well as a mp3:



I am listening on MOG.  This disc includes Kvs. 296, 379, 376,and 380.


On a first listen it sounds good, and I am wondering if other volumes are planned?
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Mandryka on May 10, 2013, 06:30:40 AM
I wasn't aware of this recording, which appears to be OOP but available from sellers as well as a mp3:



I am listening on MOG.  This disc includes Kvs. 296, 379, 376,and 380.


On a first listen it sounds good, and I am wondering if other volumes are planned?
Agreed. Very interesting CD
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 22, 2013, 11:23:43 AM
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/MozartAveVerumampDaviddePenitenteKuijken_zpscb501359.jpg)

Just finished listening to this disk after several years; I had totally forgotten what a wonderful performance it is! The sacred cantata Davidde Penitente which Mozart assembled for the Friends of Music's annual fundraiser is actually built from the pieces of the Great c minor Mass, with a couple of pieces added. It is for orchestra and chorus, with 2 sopranos and a tenor. In the world of recorded music it is quite a rarely offered piece, and I am delighted to have such a splendid rendition of it.

The motet Ave Verum Corpus was composed a few short months before his death, his last piece of sacred music excepting the unfinished Requiem. It is for 4 solo voices, chorus and a Vienna style church standard group of 2 violins, double bass and organ. It would be sung at the Offertory on Corpus Christi Sunday, but sounds great here on a Saturday afternoon too!  I have a few versions of this, but none better!  This is a disk to have at the giveaway price I find on Amazon Marketplace!  :)

8)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Roberto on July 08, 2013, 10:25:28 AM
Sounds like a name of a Hollywood movie or TV series:   The Last Castrato
The last castrato: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv-S3uoeTXg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv-S3uoeTXg)
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Mandryka on July 24, 2013, 02:02:59 AM
There's a live record of the Dissonance Quartet from the Festetics on syphonyshare, a concert in 2001. Take it if you can, it's interesting, very transparent, a real sense of conversation, very gay, wonderful cello and quite unlike any other KV465 I can remember. Somehow I'd always thought that angst free mozart performances were old fashioned in 2001, but the Festetics performance manages to avoid any stress without being at all complacent or boring, maybe because whatever they're doing, they're doing far more than just making a slick sound.

There must be a distinctive Hungarian school of cello playing, they all sound wonderful and different.

Quite a contrast with the Kuijken's studio record, who seem flat and dull by comparison to this live.

Was the studio record like this, I don't have it any more to check? It comes with a Haydn op 55/3 which I haven't heard yet.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on July 24, 2013, 02:20:30 AM
There's a live record of the Dissonance Quartet from the Festetics on syphonyshare, a concert in 2001. Take it if you can, it's interesting, very transparent, a real sense of conversation, very gay, wonderful cello and quite unlike any other KV465 I can remember. Somehow I'd always thought that angst free mozart performances were old fashioned in 2001, but the Festetics performance manages to avoid any stress without being at all complacent or boring, maybe because whatever they're doing, they're doing far more than just making a slick sound.

There must be a distinctive Hungarian school of cello playing, they all sound wonderful and different.

Quite a contrast with the Kuijken's studio record, who seem flat and dull by comparison to this live.

Was the studio record like this, I don't have it any more to check? It comes with a Haydn op 55/3 which I haven't heard yet.

And I've heard only the Haydn so far. Did you particularly notice any intonation issues in the Mozart? I though it was quite bad in the Haydn to the point of being distracting at times (during a first listen, anyway).
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Mandryka on July 24, 2013, 02:31:24 AM
And I've heard only the Haydn so far. Did you particularly notice any intonation issues in the Mozart? I though it was quite bad in the Haydn to the point of being distracting at times (during a first listen, anyway).

No, but I wouldn't, I've got a terrible sense of these things. I'll listen to the Haydn tonight.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: San Antone on July 24, 2013, 03:38:07 AM
And I've heard only the Haydn so far. Did you particularly notice any intonation issues in the Mozart? I though it was quite bad in the Haydn to the point of being distracting at times (during a first listen, anyway).

I have heard this before.  For now, let's say it is an accurate statement:  if given a choice I would rather hear a performance of a string quartet with some intonation issues but otherwise exhibiting exciting playing, and stylistic flare than one with perfect intonation but otherwise a bland performance.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Opus106 on July 24, 2013, 04:57:12 AM
I have heard this before.  For now, let's say it is an accurate statement:  if given a choice I would rather hear a performance of a string quartet with some intonation issues but otherwise exhibiting exciting playing, and stylistic flare than one with perfect intonation but otherwise a bland performance.

And I would look out for one with good intonation and non-bland playing. (I don't understand why you would restrict yourself to those two choices. ;)) I can offer them some leeway, as this was a live performance, but to have it as a calling card of sorts seems silly. I remember reading similar comments about their recordings, which if I'm not mistaken were made in the studio, but I haven't listened to any of it.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: San Antone on July 24, 2013, 05:28:33 AM
And I would look out for one with good intonation and non-bland playing. (I don't understand why you would restrict yourself to those two choices. ;)) I can offer them some leeway, as this was a live performance, but to have it as a calling card of sorts seems silly. I remember reading similar comments about their recordings, which if I'm not mistaken were made in the studio, but I haven't listened to any of it.

I don't limit myself to those two choices, but was making a comment to the effect that there are worse things than intonation problems here and there.  That said, concerning the Festetics Haydn (I don't think I've heard any Mozart by them), I have not noticed any intonation problems worth mentioning.   
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Mandryka on July 24, 2013, 06:03:09 AM
The point is, that in the live record at least, the Festetics do something nteresting with the music, revealing in fact. Other quartets may reveal other thngs, and they may hit the right notes more frequently.

The issue of intonation, I think it's a completely superficial aspect of the performance. I don't care about intonation, becauae the message gets through even if they don't play the right notes.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: milk on October 15, 2013, 09:50:40 PM
Recently I've been listening to some Mozart PC recordings: Schoonderwoerd has grown on me (I didn't like it at first). I now have his two releases with Cristofori. I really wish Bezuidenhout and Freiburger Barockorchester would issue another release. It seems like Freiburger can do no wrong. Right now there is just the one: with 17 and 22. I've been eying the Brautigam series lately (I already have Immerseel and Levin). I'm most interested in Mozart performed with small-ish ensembles. Anyway, I saw one review that panned the Brautigam series and one praising it. I'm curious what people think of this series. What are its merits and weaknesses? I also have a, possibly silly, question: Does anyone know the difference in the size of the various ensembles? Die Kölner Akademie, Cristofori, Anima, Freiburger, AAM - I'd love to know about the number of players used for the Mozart recordings. Are they all about the same? Or would they vary? I guess instrumentation is specified in the score so does that mean ensembles follow this and are similar in size? 
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Roberto on October 16, 2013, 06:19:55 AM
Die Kölner Akademie, Cristofori, Anima, Freiburger, AAM - I'd love to know about the number of players used for the Mozart recordings. Are they all about the same? Or would they vary? I guess instrumentation is specified in the score so does that mean ensembles follow this and are similar in size?
Instrumentation of Mozart piano concertos is an interesting question IMHO. Mozart used the available instruments for one performance. For example the 9th concerto performed at Salzburg. There were no cellos there so the original score doesn't contain cello part as far as I know (Hogwoood used this version with 3 basses instead of the normal 2). Mozart composed the 11th 12th and 13th concertos in Vienna and he hoped that he can earn more money with a transcription for piano and string quartet because more people could play this version. So there is a chamber and an orchestral version also written by Mozart himself. In another case if one night there was no timpani player at the hall he didn't wrote timpani in the score but if another night there was timpani player, he modified the score and added timpani part and so on. So the instrumentation is not fully fixed for every Mozart piano concerto.
The Hogwood/Levin and Gardiner/Bilson album booklets contain the instrumentation for the concertos they recorded.
I like Mozart's piano sonatas by Brautigam but I wasn't impressed by his piano concerto recordings. These are not bad but nothing special compared to Bilson, Levin or Staier.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Parsifal on October 16, 2013, 06:30:58 AM
The issue of intonation, I think it's a completely superficial aspect of the performance. I don't care about intonation, becauae the message gets through even if they don't play the right notes.

Huh?   :o
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on October 16, 2013, 06:45:53 AM
Huh?   :o

Indeed. "I don't play accurately—any one can play accurately—but I play with wonderful expression."
 - Algernon in "The Importance of Being Earnest"
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: milk on October 16, 2013, 06:46:23 AM
Instrumentation of Mozart piano concertos is an interesting question IMHO. Mozart used the available instruments for one performance. For example the 9th concerto performed at Salzburg. There were no cellos there so the original score doesn't contain cello part as far as I know (Hogwoood used this version with 3 basses instead of the normal 2). Mozart composed the 11th 12th and 13th concertos in Vienna and he hoped that he can earn more money with a transcription for piano and string quartet because more people could play this version. So there is a chamber and an orchestral version also written by Mozart himself. In another case if one night there was no timpani player at the hall he didn't wrote timpani in the score but if another night there was timpani player, he modified the score and added timpani part and so on. So the instrumentation is not fully fixed for every Mozart piano concerto.
The Hogwood/Levin and Gardiner/Bilson album booklets contain the instrumentation for the concertos they recorded.
I like Mozart's piano sonatas by Brautigam but I wasn't impressed by his piano concerto recordings. These are not bad but nothing special compared to Bilson, Levin or Staier.
(http://a2.mzstatic.com/us/r1000/050/Music/3d/02/96/mzi.bdjitvde.170x170-75.jpg)
I haven't listened to this in a while but I liked it the last time I tried. It's Richard Burnett & The Finchcocks String Quartet playing the piano and string quartet versions of 11 and 13. I haven't seen any other HIP versions. I didn't know there was 12 also.
Title: Re: Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)
Post by: Pat B on October 16, 2013, 09:05:53 AM
Does anyone know the difference in the size of the various ensembles? Die Kölner Akademie, Cristofori, Anima, Freiburger, AAM - I'd love to know about the number of players used for the Mozart record