Discrimination against progressives?

[jowcol]

Teresa,

I will talk to you here openly about the political and secular issues that we disagree, but about the religious things we can correspond with pms separately, because the site in general wants to keep religious discussion here to a minimum.

Hope you can understand this.

The wisdom of Solomon in action.  Well said.

[knight66]

Bravo Saul.

Mike

[Saul]

Thank you guys!

[greg]

No, they would not be allowed back into society or near children UNTIL they are CURED. 

The sad thing is, how do you know for sure if they are cured or not?

[Saul]

The sad thing is, how do you know for sure if they are cured or not?

How can you ask that?!!

Don't you know that Progressives can read minds?!!!

[Teresa]

The sad thing is, how do you know for sure if they are cured or not?

An excellent question, and so far the success rate is small.  Even declaring abstinence by going into the priesthood usually does not help.  Not being in the field though I am not privy of the techniques.  However I would think it would require some form of aversion therapy with measurement of visual stimuli until one gots a null result.  I'm only guessing here, as to answer your question one would have to have 6-8 years of education in psychology.

At the present time I believe most pedophiles would have to be institutionalized for life.   If effective cures are never found, it is possible they could be physically separated from children in adult only guarded colonies. 

[jowcol]

The sad thing is, how do you know for sure if they are cured or not?

Remember the end of Clockwork Orange?  When Alex tells you he's cured, he's cured all right.

[71 dB]

The sad thing is, how do you know for sure if they are cured or not?

Maybe we should simply TRUST them? Maybe if we showed empathy, respect and trust to these "criminals" they would start living that way showing empathy, respect and trust to other people? I am an atheist but even religions say "Do other people what you want them to do to you." Are religions wrong with this?

[greg]

Maybe we should simply TRUST them? Maybe if we showed empathy, respect and trust to these "criminals" they would start living that way showing empathy, respect and trust to other people? I am an atheist but even religions say "Do other people what you want them to do to you." Are religions wrong with this?

Well, that would be nice if it were that simple, right?
People who go far enough to actually harm a child like that are monsters. I doubt you could get a monster to just stop doing it by simply being empathetic and showing him respect.

[Gurn Blanston]

Maybe we should simply TRUST them? Maybe if we showed empathy, respect and trust to these "criminals" they would start living that way showing empathy, respect and trust to other people? I am an atheist but even religions say "Do other people what you want them to do to you." Are religions wrong with this?

As much as I hate to really rag on a member, you have finally pushed me to the brink of madness, Poju.

WHAT WORLD ARE YOU LIVING IN, ANYWAY!   

Don't you realize that you aren't dealing with 'normal' people here? No matter what you view them as; sick, twisted, perverted, poor bastards etc. or "all of the above", it doesn't matter a damn to them. If you don't trust them with your children, you aren't hurting their feelings, you are just making it a little harder for them to get what they want/need.  But they WILL get it, and that's the bottom line. Even if they hate themselves for it (and I actually believe that some of them do) they will still do it. At some point you need to sit down and introspect a little bit and try to find the places where your value set crosses the line into the Twilight Zone!



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Now playing:
Brautigam, Ronald - Hob 16 20 Sonata #33 in c for Keyboard 2nd mvmt - Andante con moto

[Franco]

Maybe we should simply TRUST them? Maybe if we showed empathy, respect and trust to these "criminals" they would start living that way showing empathy, respect and trust to other people?

I guess you are much younger than your avatar would indicate.

[jowcol]

Even Ghandi admitted that his methods would only work against a civilized people, and not be effective against the Nazis...

[DavidRoss]

As much as I hate to really rag on a member, you have finally pushed me to the brink of madness, Poju.

WHAT WORLD ARE YOU LIVING IN, ANYWAY!   

Don't you realize that you aren't dealing with 'normal' people here? No matter what you view them as; sick, twisted, perverted, poor bastards etc. or "all of the above", it doesn't matter a damn to them. If you don't trust them with your children, you aren't hurting their feelings, you are just making it a little harder for them to get what they want/need.  But they WILL get it, and that's the bottom line. Even if they hate themselves for it (and I actually believe that some of them do) they will still do it. At some point you need to sit down and introspect a little bit and try to find the places where your value set crosses the line into the Twilight Zone!

Gurn, in your own words, "Don't you realize that you aren't dealing with 'normal' people here?"  Expecting rationality from someone who has demonstrated repeatedly that he lacks the capacity is like expecting your cat to write a symphony.  And if you get angry at your cat for not being a dog, whose expectations are really out of sync with reality?

Bear in mind that about 10% of the adult population is alcoholic, 20% abuse or are addicted to other drugs, 20% suffer from clinical personality disorders, 10% suffer mood disorders, 20% suffer schizophrenia and a whole host of anxiety disorders, and--drum roll--50% have below-average intelligence (IQ < 100!).  Even granting that there is considerable overlap among those who suffer these handicaps, you must recognize that among any random group of people only a small percentage possess the capacity to be a "normal" human being.


P.S.   Driving used to be a very exasperating experience for me.  Every couple of miles I would witness some monumentally boneheaded maneuver that had me pounding the steering wheel and asking why anyone would do something so stupid!  One day the question ceased to be rhetorical and I realized that I already knew the answer.  Subsequently I attached a card to the overhead visor that read, "Because they're drunk, stupid, or insane."  When I saw that card while driving, instead of getting angry I often felt compassion tinged with gratitude and sadness.

It's hard to be angry at severely handicapped people who are struggling to do the best they can, even if it's not very good when measured against the ideal.  And who among us doesn't suffer from our own faults, and suffer even more from our ignorance of them, unless some brave soul is kind and caring enough to point them out to us at one of those rare moments when we're willing to let the scales fall from our eyes?

[greg]

Gurn, in your own words, "Don't you realize that you aren't dealing with 'normal' people here?" 

Maybe he meant severely abnormal?

[Saul]

Gurn, in your own words, "Don't you realize that you aren't dealing with 'normal' people here?"  Expecting rationality from someone who has demonstrated repeatedly that he lacks the capacity is like expecting your cat to write a symphony.  And if you get angry at your cat for not being a dog, whose expectations are really out of sync with reality?

Bear in mind that about 10% of the adult population is alcoholic, 20% abuse or are addicted to other drugs, 20% suffer from clinical personality disorders, 10% suffer mood disorders, 20% suffer schizophrenia and a whole host of anxiety disorders, and--drum roll--50% have below-average intelligence (IQ < 100!).  Even granting that there is considerable overlap among those who suffer these handicaps, you must recognize that among any random group of people only a small percentage possess the capacity to be a "normal" human being.

I disagree with this assertion.

I believe that most people are capable of been normal people. Problem is that when these normal people are born they are been exposed to extreme abnormalities and idiocy and as a result many fall in the net of perversion and stupidity.

But said all this, the vast majority of the people in the world have the potential within them to be decent normal human beings if they are shown the right path. And this right path can't be shown by the Progressives and the Liberals because they are on the wrong path as well.

Sad truth is that today as always, the vast majority of the world is on the wrong path.

[Gurn Blanston]

Gurn, in your own words, "Don't you realize that you aren't dealing with 'normal' people here?"  Expecting rationality from someone who has demonstrated repeatedly that he lacks the capacity is like expecting your cat to write a symphony.  And if you get angry at your cat for not being a dog, whose expectations are really out of sync with reality?

I don't have a cat. Wouldn't have one. I had one, but g minor was beyond him.   So, what you're saying here, if I understand you correctly, is that it verges on madness on my part to expect a different result this time. My problem is that I have the bad habit of treating disciples of the Prophet Moroni the same way that Poju treats pedophiles, most likely because I just have a hard time believing that they really exist.

Bear in mind that about 10% of the adult population is alcoholic, 20% abuse or are addicted to other drugs, 20% suffer from clinical personality disorders, 10% suffer mood disorders, 20% suffer schizophrenia and a whole host of anxiety disorders, and--drum roll--50% have below-average intelligence (IQ < 100!).  Even granting that there is considerable overlap among those who suffer these handicaps, you must recognize that among any random group of people only a small percentage possess the capacity to be a "normal" human being.


P.S.   Driving used to be a very exasperating experience for me.  Every couple of miles I would witness some monumentally boneheaded maneuver that had me pounding the steering wheel and asking why anyone would do something so stupid!  One day the question ceased to be rhetorical and I realized that I already knew the answer.  Subsequently I attached a card to the overhead visor that read, "Because they're drunk, stupid, or insane."  When I saw that card while driving, instead of getting angry I often felt compassion tinged with gratitude and sadness.

It's hard to be angry at severely handicapped people who are struggling to do the best they can, even if it's not very good when measured against the ideal.  And who among us doesn't suffer from our own faults, and suffer even more from our ignorance of them, unless some brave soul is kind and caring enough to point them out to us at one of those rare moments when we're willing to let the scales fall from our eyes?

Most of what you say here is agreeable to me. I was going for 'normal' in a sense that we could all reach a consensus on, hoping to make contact on some level. I think we can agree between us that there is no such thing, but it does give people some comfort to think there might be. But pedophilia is a form of sociopathy and as such, by definition, there is no such thing as true remorse or any feeling of having done something wrong. So to say 'we should forgive them and cure them' is the height of hubris as well as the display of nearly total ignorance... I just hate coming right out so bluntly and saying that, but there it is.



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Now playing:
Brautigam, Ronald - Hob 16 33 Sonata #34 in D for Keyboard 2nd mvmt - Adagio

[DavidRoss]

But pedophilia is a form of sociopathy and as such, by definition, there is no such thing as true remorse or any feeling of having done something wrong. So to say 'we should forgive them and cure them' is the height of hubris as well as the display of nearly total ignorance... I just hate coming right out so bluntly and saying that, but there it is.

But of course.  Some truths are unpleasant.  When the lion lies down with the lamb, it's usually for the sake of a satisfying snack.  Can the lion help it if her palate is not sufficiently refined to enjoy a bit of mint jelly on the side?

There is inevitable tension between compassion for the poor psychopath (himself unable to experience compassion) and compassion for his victims.  Personally, it seems bloody clear that our duty is to protect the innocent from such predators--and that is wholly consistent with compassion for both.  A society without the moral backbone to protect its own children is doomed to sink into ever deeper and more pervasive depravity...as we have witnessed throughout our lifetimes. 

[Teresa]

...And this right path can't be shown by the Progressives and the Liberals because they are on the wrong path as well.

Sad truth is that today as always, the vast majority of the world is on the wrong path.

Should read "And this right path can't be shown by the Conservatives and the Liberals because they are on the wrong path as well."

Both Conservative and Liberal ideologies will lead followers further from the path.  However we agreed not to discuss religion here.  Progressives do believe in complete religious freedom, and in the betterment of mankind.  Everything they do stems from a love of others as taught to us by the good book. 

So if you do not believe in the corrupt Conservative and Liberal ideals, and you think Progressives are trying to take over the roll of religion.  What is your answer to politics?  Avoid it complete and let governments become as tyrannical as they want to be? 

[Saul]

Should read "And this right path can't be shown by the Conservatives and the Liberals because they are on the wrong path as well."

Both Conservative and Liberal ideologies will lead followers further from the path.  However we agreed not to discuss religion here.  Progressives do believe in complete religious freedom, and in the betterment of mankind.  Everything they do stems from a love of others as taught to us by the good book. 

So if you do not believe in the corrupt Conservative and Liberal ideals, and you think Progressives are trying to take over the roll of religion.  What is your answer to politics?  Avoid it complete and let governments become as tyrannical as they want to be?

Teresa I have sent you a new PM, you still didnt respond to my first one. Did you read it?

[Teresa]

Teresa I have sent you a new PM, you still didnt respond to my first one. Did you read it?

I just responded to the first, I am not responding to the second as it is too exclusive of the beliefs of others.