Quiz: Mystery scores

[Guido]

Is there any rhyme or reason to any of those three numbering systems?

[Guido]

On the other hand, on the piano it is easier to hear the dissonance - to me it sounds more extreme without all the mechanisms adding extra sounds to the texture - it just sounds like slamming down very heavily. Not saying that either one is better, but I like both! The sound of the harpsichord is particularly bright and loud in the recording you supplied.

[lukeottevanger]

On the other hand, on the piano it is easier to hear the dissonance - to me it sounds more extreme without all the mechanisms adding extra sounds to the texture - it just sounds like slamming down very heavily. Not saying that either one is better, but I like both!

Yes, but I don't think Scarlatti weighed and calculated the dissonance hugely carefully here, with the desire that we hear each harmonic nuance - I don't think there really are many nuances in this sort of thing, and the percussive 'slamming down very heavily' is really I think what he's after here, like a precurssor of Cowell's clusters in his more abrasive moods. What Mark said about the piano being too tame is to the point here - there are times when subtlety isn't required!

The numbering - from what I recall, there is no way to number them accurately, but K[irkpatrick] is the most methodical. L[ongo] might as well be random, though - Longo arranged the sonatas into groups that made nice little collections (by key, tempo etc.) and his numbering is the result (IMSLP had these Longo 'suites' for download - they are heavily prettified too). IIRC - let me check! Don't want to be unfair to Longo, and it's a long time since I read up on this....

[lukeottevanger]

...if you check the list I attached earlier, you'll see that Longo's sonatas fall into patterns of related/identical keys.

[Guido]

Not that I'm diagreesing Luke, but the fact that  I could tell that that note was supposed to be a C# rather than a D# shows tht he must have thught about the bashing at least a little... but you didn't say that there was no nuance.

I think we've come to stand still with the score guessing. I don't think that I know any of your ones Luke.

I'll give some more clues for mine then and recap what I have already said - they are both by really really famous composers. Both are early works and composed very near the turn of the century. The extreme dynamics in the cello/piano one are perhaps hint to one of the features of his later scores, but the Mahlerian harmony is rather different. The intrumentation also gives a clue to this composers early musical tuition. The solo piano piece contains writing of a very particular sort, but is the only piece that he composed of this genre.

[lukeottevanger]

Not that I'm diagreesing Luke, but the fact that  I could tell that that note was supposed to be a C# rather than a D# shows tht he must have thught about the bashing at least a little... but you didn't say that there was no nuance.

Yes, but you could tell because the C# is part of the scale here; IOW, Scarlatti is 'just' clustering the degrees of the scale together, not introducing anything that is, in itself, terribly chromatic.

Here, out of interest, is a comparison of two editions of this sonata. The one on the left, so annoyingly divested of its most compelling features, is (I believe) the Longo one - it certainly comes from the 'suites' of sonatas he arranged, in which is it no 429. The one on the right is the Sankey typesetting, which, for all its misprints, at least doesn't intentionally thin out and prettify Scarlatti's clusters here.

[Guido]

Yeesh. Thank God that kind of 'musicology' is a thing of the past.

[lukeottevanger]

I think we've come to stand still with the score guessing. I don't think that I know any of your ones Luke.

I'll give more clues later, then. I'm not always sure that people pick up on the little clues I drop into my posts. For instance, in addition to my larger clues I've revealed for sure that the composer of no 215 also has something to do with the phrase 'the ?? harp'; that 219 and 234 are by famous pianists, one of whom is John Ogdon; that 232 is by Feldman and not for the three pianos it looks like; that 224 is a symphonic poem/ballet by Villa Lobos, not one of the three or four already guessed....

I'll give some more clues for mine then and recap what I have already said - they are both by really really famous composers. Both are early works and composed very near the turn of the century. The extreme dynamics in the cello/piano one are perhaps hint to one of the features of his later scores, but the Mahlerian harmony is rather different. The intrumentation also gives a clue to this composers early musical tuition. The solo piano piece contains writing of a very particular sort, but is the only piece that he composed of this genre.

I feel rather thick - the cello/piano one is one of the two early pieces by Webern (1899) - I was only playing these pieces the other night, and was even going to suggest them to you!

The other one - I have some ideas I will work on....

[Guido]

I feel rather thick - the cello/piano one is one of the two early pieces by Webern (1899) - I was only playing these pieces the other night, and was even going to suggest them to you!

I'm sure I've said this before, but those two Webern pieces along with the later sonata and also the 3 little pieces, make up a rather nice little short set that show Webern's musical progress from late romantic to atonalist to serialist, and all in less than 10 minutes! It's such a shame that Berg never wrote anything for cello. From Schoenberg we only have that bizarre (but charming) cello concerto which is insanely difficult, without the payoff seeming worth it.

"False relationships and the extended ending" requires three pianos in its scoring, but has other things too which might not be playing at that moment, but my guess is that what you by 'not for the three pianos it looks like' is that these are other instruments.

[lukeottevanger]

"False relationships and the extended ending" requires three pianos in its scoring, but has other things too which might not be playing at that moment, but my guess is that what you by 'not for the three pianos it looks like' is that these are other instruments.

That's not exactly what I mean, no....

[lukeottevanger]

Guido's last remaining one is Bartok's 'Tanulmany balkezre' (= Study for the left hand) of 1903

If you look closely at my pieces you'll find one which makes similar demands. Which ought to be enough, with my other clues, to identify it.

[lukeottevanger]

OK, as Guido requested, more clues to my remaining ones.. I coupled them with the old clues - those older bits are in a smaller font size.

215 - a notational experiment - an attempt to do away with 'tuplet' figures and brackets and replace them with noteheads of different shapes. As I said to Mark re his jest about The Sacred Harp, this composer is associated with a similar phrase - 'The ?? Harp'; he's already been on this thread, a long time back. Karl identified the composer - Cowell - but not the piece yet

217 - a hommage to an earlier composer, written (IIRC) for that composer's centenary by one of the most famous radicals of the 20th century.  A very short, pithy title. The composer referred to is Ravel. Johan identified the piece and composer - à r by Xenakis

219 - composer much more famous as a legendary pianist who died too early; he recorded this piece and it is available on one of the great CDs, though it isn't the major draw. The major draw on those CDs is the pianist playing the works of a greater composer, also one of the great violinists, who he also accompanies. As revealed above, either this one or  234 is by John Ogdon.

221 - Messiaen, as has been guessed - and it looks like no-one else, does it!? One of his lesser-known pieces, not part of a larger set. But recorded and not completely obscure. It's even less obscure since I mentioned it on a different thread yesterday!

223 - this one is really hard, to be fair, even though the title is left in - it's quite an unhelpful title, though. I just really like the sound of this piece, and it's an excuse to post an audio clip later for those who might be interested in hearing something so odd. As you can see, the piece progresses mostly in harmonics, and the guitar is tuned microtonally - the whole thing, as the indication says 'with rapt concentration, as if telling a strange tale'. British composer, quite obscure but linked to the complexity group (if there is such a thing), has written many similarly titled pieces for piano, all of which explore the instrument in similar ways. I don't expect this one to go, but if you're determined to find it, look for a complexity composer associated with Finnissy etc., composer of a series of pieces called 'For Piano' and recorded by Ian Pace among others. With those facts, he ought to be much easier to find.

224- from the previous clue, Mark correctly guessed that the composer is Villa-Lobos. A number of his ballets have been proposed - Uirapuru, Danca da terra, Ruda, Genesis - all but the correct one, which shares its date of composition with the earliest of these other ones. It isn't one of his most obscure pieces - in fact, it's one with the most Villa-Lobosian title of all. Johan identified this one - Amazonas is the title you were looking for.

226 - I put this one up because it is pertinent at the moment, just as my 203 was pertinent when I put it up (a glance at 203 might help to see what I'm talking about). Alright, then - why was 203 pertinent? Because it's by Hoddinott, who, when I posted it, had just died.....ergo....

228 - a quick examination reveals what is going on here. This is one of its composer's most well-known works, I think, though recently his name has been in the news for an altogether larger piece, about which we had a thread here.

229 - I chose a sample which includes this composer's trademark technique in its baldest form. What is going on with the time signatures? Who does this sort of thing a lot?

232 - not quite for the forces it looks like. Guido got the composer - Feldman. Remember that Feldman sometimes distributes his music around the staves as he does in odd ways, to do with keeping things clear, in this case, the various rhythmical strands.

233 - possibly the piano left-hand and the stave beneath will help here. The composer was born on the Russo-Turkish frontier, in either 1866 (he said) or 187(his sister said)!; a kind of philosopher of religion (Christian and Buddhist, mostly) who developed a way of thinking described variously as 'the Fourth Way' or 'the Way of the Cunning Man'. Time said of him that he was 'a remarkable blend of P. T. Barnum, Rasputin, Freud, Groucho Marx, and everybody's grandfather.'

234 - as stated earlier, the composer was much better known as a prodigiously gifted, prematurely deceased pianist with an impressive repertoire ranging from the classics to Boulez and Sorabji. As revealed above, either this one or no 219 is by John Ogdon.

238 - not a composer associated with the piano, which instrument isn't very well suited to the technical concerns he developed later in life. This piece, slightly earlier, isn't quite there yet. It refers to the music and culture of an Asian country often bypassed by western composers looking for an Eastern fix. That country is Tibet; this composer visited Tibet and Nepal, I believe, and was greatly influenced by Hinduism and Buddhism.

239 - really very hard - this could be by any one of a number of composers, I suppose. It's Russian; its composer is one of the better-known Soviet composers outside the biggest names. Well, his name is known, anyway - he's famous for one piece, really  - Zavod. Johan identified the composer - Mosolov - but not the piece

240 - a fairly early score by an experimental composer who has now achieved great popularity. British, previously a jazz bassist. Has been on this thread before.

242 - if you closely, you'll see fragments from a well-known piece in here. That's because this is the cadenza to a concerto by probably the finest writer of piano concerti (pace Brahms, Beethoven and Elgar/Wagner/Schnittke/Pettersen/Dittersdorf/Mendelssohn...). It was written by the British composer of another rather cool piano concerto, and demonstrates his typical textural invention and superior powers of imagination.

243 - I'm glad to see that no-one has fallen into the trap of thinking this is Ravel, though those who know their Ravel will see that it is built on one famous piece and morphs towards the end into another. However, there is another tune hiding in the mix... a (slightly kitschy) joy! [/s]Why doesn't someone print it out and try to play it - once the secret tune is discovered, identifying the piece will be child's play. Johan's identified this - Sciarrino's Anamorfosi

244 - look at the technique involved here; the composer is quite clear then. We had a piece by this composer a long time back, and Mark identified it then - he spotted that the piece was a complex canon at various speeds, as is this one, though it's much simpler here. Who composes such things.

245 - One of a set of pieces, all of which start with the same letter. This one is the last; it depicts a nightingale with a cold. The letter is R, and thus the piece's title is....

247 - the typeface here looks just like that most of this composer's scores appear in, but some of the substance of the music doesn't look likely for this composer. To expand, one doesn't really expect to see too many glissandi in the music of a composer who became, probably, the leading serialist - this is quite an early work, however, and as such is now easy identify.

248 - the only lull in this otherwise relentlessly fortissimo piece. Which composer, who died two years ago and was taught by Shostakovich, writes long, austere, dissonant pieces which remain at a fairly constant dynamic level? Guido's identified this as one of the six piano sonatas by Ustvolskaya, but which?

[karlhenning]

215 - a notational experiment - an attempt to do away with 'tuplet' figures and brackets and replace them with noteheads of different shapes. As I said to Mark re his jest about The Sacred Harp, this composer is associated with a similar phrase - 'The ?? Harp'; he's already been on this thread, a long time back.

Henry Cowell?

[Guido]

248 is Ustvolskaya then but I don't know her six piano sonatas at all so I won't hazard a guess. Sorry for this limp attempt at an answer!

[lukeottevanger]

Yes to both -

215 is by Henry Cowell, a notational experiment, attempting a new way with 'tuplets'.

and

248 is indeed one of the six piano sonatas by Ustvolskaya

[lukeottevanger]

Let's drag this back somewhere closer to the context, then...

Old list:
part one
and
part two

current list

Set by Luke
165 - Schubert - Symphony no 4 - (Sforzando)
166 - Brahms - Serenade no 1 - (Sforzando)
167 - Bartok - Miraculous Mandarin (complete ballet) - (Sforzando)
168 - Janacek - Otce Nas - (revealed by Luke)
169 - Mozart - Sinfonia Concertante (wind solos) - (Sforzando)
170 - Brahms - Neue Liebeslieder waltzes - (Sforzando)
171 - Liszt - Totentanz - (Johan)
172 - Schumann - Mein Wagen rollet langsam- (Sforzando)
173 - Wagner - Rheingold - (Mark)
174 - Stravinsky - Mass - (Mark)
175 - Sibelius - Tapiola - (Mark)
176 - Debussy- Danse sacre et danse profane - (Sforzando)
177 - Berlioz - Roman Carnival - (Johan)
178 - Debussy - Pelleas et Melisande - (Sforzando)
179 - Rossini - La Cenerentola overture - (Sforzando)
180 - Scriabin - Prometheus - (Mark)
181 - Franck - Symphonic Variations - (Sforzando)
182 - Gershwin - Piano Concerto - (Mark)
183 - Busoni - Piano Concerto - (Robert)
184 - Honegger - Pacific 231 - (Greg)
185 - Ligeti - String Quartet no 1 - (revealed by Luke)
186 - Ligeti - String Quartet no 2 - (matticus)
187 - Holst - The Perfect Fool - (Johan)
188 - Tippett - Fantasia Concertante/Corelli - (Johan)
189 - Elgar - Cockaigne - (Johan)
190 - Tippett - Triple Concerto - (Mark)
191 - Ireland - Piano concerto - (Guido)
192 - Tippett - Symphony no 1 - (Mark)
193 - Vaughan Williams - The Lake in the Mountains - (revealed by Luke)
194 - Tippett - A Child of Our Time - (Robert)
195 - Rubbra - Prelude/Fugue theme of Cyril Scott - (Maciek)
196 - Berners - Le poisson d'or - (Guido)
197 - Tippett - The Midsummer Marriage - (Mark)
198 - Howells - Hymnus Paradisi - (Guido)
199 - Lutoslawski - Two Etudes - (Maciek)
200 - Bloch - Schelomo - (Guido)
201 - Thelonius Monk improvisation - (revealed by Luke)
202 - Humperdinck - Hansel und Gretel - (Sforzando)
203 - Hoddinott - The sun, the great luminary of the universe - (revealed by Luke)
204 - Zimmermann - Stille und umkehr - (revealed by Luke)
205 - Ligeti - Cello Concerto - (Guido)
206 - Glass - Vessels (from Koyaanisqatsi) - (revealed by Luke)
207 - Berio - Folksongs - (Symphonien)
208 - Part - Rottkappchen und der Wolf - (Sforzando)
209 - Ligeti - Lontano - (Greg)
210 - Ligeti - Artikulation - (Greg)
211 - Bussotti - La Passion Selon Sade - (Symphonien)
212 - Stevenson - Passacaglia on DSCH - (Johan)
213 - Grainger - Ramble on Love - (Sforzando)
214 - Penderecki - De Natura Sonoris I - (Mark/Greg)
215 - Cowell - ? - (Karl)
216 - Dallapiccola - Quaderno Musicale di Annalibera - (Symphonien)
217 - Xenakis - à r - (Johan)
218 - Ives - Improvisation (transcr. Dapogny) - (Mark)
219 - ? -
220 - Messiaen - Mode de valeurs... - (Guido)
221 - Messiaen - Tombeau de Paul Dukas - (Johan)
222 - ?
223 - Crumb - Agnus Dei (Makrokosmos II) - (Symphonien)
224 - Villa-Lobos - Amazonas - (Johan)
225 - Koechlin - Les Heures Persanes - (Sforzando)
226 - Mussorgsky - Sunless - (Sforzando)
226 - ? -
227 - Schoenberg - Songs op 22 - (Mark)
228 - ? -
229 - ? -
230 - Gould - So you want to write a fugue - (Johan)
231 - Schoeck - Elegie - (Johan)
232 - Feldman - ? - (Guido)
233 - ? -
234 - ? -
235 - Rachmaninov - Piano Trio 1 - (Guido)
236 - Britten - Michelangelo Sonnets - (Sforzando)
237 - Wyschnegradsky - Etude sur le carré magique sonore - (Johan)
238 - ? -
239 - Mosolov - ? - (Johan)
240 - ? -
241 - Francaix - La Promenade d'un musicologue éclectique - (Johan)
242 - ? -
243 - Sciarrino - Anamorfosi - (Johan)
244 - ? -
245 - ? -
246 - Beethoven - Equali - (Mark)
247 - Boulez - Notations - (Sforzando)
248 - Ustvolskaya - Piano Sonata no ? - (Guido)
249 - Hamelin - Preambulum to an Imaginary Piano Symphony - (Johan)
250 - Stockhausen - Gruppen - (Sforzando)

Set by Greg
31 - Mahler - Ressurection symphony - (Johan)

Set by Symphonien
1 - Lachenmann - Pression - (Luke)
2 - Stravinsky - Les noces - (Johan)
3 - Schoenberg - A Survivor from Warsaw - (Mark)
4 - Murail - Désintégrations - (Luke)
5 - Schnittke - Prelude in memoriam Dmitiri Shostakovich - (Mark)
6  - Sciarrino - Sei quartetti brevi - (Luke)
7 - Stockhausen - Es (aus der sieben Tage) - (Mark)
8 - Nietzsche - There flows a brook - (Guido)

Set by Guido
21 - Beethoven - Triple Concerto - (Luke)
22 - Ligeti - Hungarian Rock - (Luke)
23 - Bartok - Study for the Left Hand - (Luke)
24 - Miaskovsky - Cello Sonata 2 - (Luke)
25 - Schulhoff - Violin Sonata - (Luke)
26 - Webern - Piece for cello and piano - (Luke)
27 - Tchaikovsky - Rococo Variations - (Luke)
28 - Scarlatti - Sonata K175 - (Luke)

Set by Sforzando
1 - Schubert - Reliquie Sonata - (Luke)
2 - Feldman - Last pieces - (Guido)
3 - Griffes - The White Peacock - (Luke)
4 - Ferneyhough - Superscriptio - (Mark)
5 - Ibert - Le petit ane blanc - (Guido)
6 - Ruggles - Sun-Treader - (Mark)
7 - Verdi - original version of Liber Scriptus, Manzoni Requiem - (Luke)
8 - Berwald - Symphony no 3 - (Mark)
9 - Rimsky-Korsakov - Le coq d'or - (Mark)
9(a) - Beethoven - sketchbook for opp 130, 132 - (Luke)
10 - Gluck - Le calme entre dans ma coeur (Iphigénie en Tauride) - (Luke)
11 - Rameau - Les tendres plaintes - (Luke)
12 - Roussel - Le festin de l'araignée - (Luke)
13 -  Alfvén - First Swedish Rhapsody (Midsommarvaka) - (Johan)
14 - ? -
15 - Respighi - Brazillian Impressions - (Luke)
16 - Beach - Gaelic Symphony - (Luke)
17 - Hoffmann - Piece for Orchestra - (Luke)
18 - ? -
19 - ? -
20 - Martin - Concerto pour sept instrument à vents - (Luke)
21 - Bernstein - Serenade - (Luke)
22 - larry Rinkel - Sonatina - (Luke)
23 - Chabrier - Bourrée Fantasque - (Johan)
24 - ? -
25 - Berlioz - Benvenuto Cellini - (Luke)
26 - Hummel - Trumpet Concerto - (Luke)
27 - Varese - Density 21.5 - (Luke)

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

#217 Xenakis - A.R. 

#239 Mosolov (Zavod = Foundry)

[lukeottevanger]

Good - 217 is Xenakis's homage to Ravel à r

and 239 is Mosolov, though as to what it is, that's a lot harder. In fact, I've forgotten myself, and I'll have to look it up. Not one of his sonatas, though....

[(poco) Sforzando]

243 - Without even playing it, I see some Schumann there, but it doesn't help me in the least! 

Meanwhile, just to confuse things even more - a lot more from me:

[(poco) Sforzando]

The only nightingales I can think of are Stravinsky's and Granados's - and it ain't one of them!