.
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An onerous task for you!!
What do you think of Igor Levit's complete Beethoven Piano Sonatas? Also, Ronald Brautigam on fortepiano?
Quote from: Conrad Veidt fan on August 01, 2024, 02:40:30 PMAn onerous task for you!!
What do you think of Igor Levit's complete Beethoven Piano Sonatas? Also, Ronald Brautigam on fortepiano?
Funny
Richter, and Solomon in op 2/i maybe.
Quote from: Conrad Veidt fan on August 01, 2024, 02:40:30 PMWhat do you think of Igor Levit's complete Beethoven Piano Sonatas? Also, Ronald Brautigam on fortepiano?
Levit is third tier and Brautigam fourth.
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Q. How does your brain handle listening to 14 versions of the same work in succession? Are multiple sittigs required?
I've been having fun in the two posts so far trying to guess the ranking based on the write-ups. Easy with the ones where you find fault, but very hard with the others, perhaps because all of the performances are so darned good that it's a game of inches. Millimeters, even. Now (as in right now!) listening to Lucchesini's 2/2.
Quote from: Conrad Veidt fan on August 01, 2024, 02:40:30 PMAn onerous task for you!!
What do you think of Igor Levit's complete Beethoven Piano Sonatas? Also, Ronald Brautigam on fortepiano?
Todd described three volumes of Brautigam (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1458.0.html) here 17 years ago (!!) and has a short summary of Levit here (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2302.msg1524961.html#msg1524961).
Quote from: Brian on August 02, 2024, 06:28:31 AMQ. How does your brain handle listening to 14 versions of the same work in succession? Are multiple sittigs required?
Oh, yeah, multiple sessions were required. For short sonatas like Opp 49, 78, and 79, I got through all recordings in one day each, though multiple listening sessions were required. For Op 106, it took a little over a week to work through them all.
Quote from: Brian on August 02, 2024, 06:28:31 AMI've been having fun in the two posts so far trying to guess the ranking based on the write-ups. Easy with the ones where you find fault, but very hard with the others, perhaps because all of the performances are so darned good that it's a game of inches. Millimeters, even.
There are some real clunkers in this survey, and those will be obvious, but with most recordings of most sonatas, the qualitative differences between performances are small. Sometimes, a pianist's overall style all but guarantees a great recording, and there are also some surprises, where in the context of a survey, a pianist delivers a reading that stands out more than expected based on style and memory. Some of those will become obvious, as well.
Quote from: Brian on August 02, 2024, 06:28:31 AMTodd described three volumes of Brautigam (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1458.0.html) here 17 years ago (!!) and has a short summary of Levit here (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2302.msg1524961.html#msg1524961).
These links just lead me to the main page.
Quote from: Todd on August 02, 2024, 06:42:11 AMOh, yeah, multiple sessions were required. For short sonatas like Opp 49, 78, and 79, I got through all recordings in one day each, though multiple listening sessions were required. For Op 106, it took a little over a week to work through them all.
I'm retired, and still can't imagine spending the time needed to do this kind of thing. But I appreciate the results of your efforts. Thanks - very entertaining.
Quote from: San Antone on August 02, 2024, 06:49:55 AMI'm retired, and still can't imagine spending the time needed to do this kind of thing. But I appreciate the results of your efforts. Thanks - very entertaining.
I'm trying to go through every Dvorak symphony cycle, and it's taken (checks Word file properties) 3.5 years. What a slacker ;D ;D
I've been in a Beethoven sonata period, actually following Todd's top tier list, so this is great!
Quote from: San Antone on August 02, 2024, 06:49:55 AMI'm retired, and still can't imagine spending the time needed to do this kind of thing.
It took about three months with ~75% of my listening being the sonatas. It helped reset my personal baseline. I don't think I need to do anything like this again for fifteen or twenty years.
Last year, I started in on a massive survey of the first book of Debussy's Preludes, which is my second most collected set of solo piano works, and I stopped after forty-four versions were written up. I also pulled the plug on LvB's G Major concerto around fifty to sixty recordings in. I don't even know if I kept those write ups. Sometimes I just get an urge to do me some comparative listening.
I can't pretend that that's unthinkable to me, because I am in the middle of taste testing all 30 of Dallas' and Fort Worth's pastrami sandwiches. After lunch today, there will be only 7 left!
Quote from: Brian on August 02, 2024, 08:23:07 AMI can't pretend that that's unthinkable to me, because I am in the middle of taste testing all 30 of Dallas' and Fort Worth's pastrami sandwiches. After lunch today, there will be only 7 left!
(https://i.scdn.co/image/ab67616d00001e02034be8e1ee0d8296ec43f923)
Quote from: Todd on August 02, 2024, 03:42:25 AMLevit is third tier and Brautigam fourth.
I read your review from 2007, having recently tried to buy this set from Brautigam in Australia but finding it NLA. Your review mostly discusses the qualities of the fortepiano, to which you say you're antipathetic. I love the instrument and I hear what Beethoven would have heard - if he could. The instrument perfectly matches the musical aesthetic and I've no doubt that if Beethoven had heard (well, anything) the modern concert grand his music would have been composed differently; for example, pedalling and a more impressionistic style. A different palette of colours.
Most of the pianist you've mentioned in your comparisons I've never heard of, except for the more famous ones from the past.
To each his own and these reviews are highly personal and subjective after all. I enjoy Levit, despite your suggestion that he hasn't anything 'new' to say about the Beethoven Sonatas. It's his intensity that I appreciate; his suggestion that this is 'fearless' music is what initially caught my attention. My one criticism of Levit is his speed which is often of Argerich-inspired proportions in its rapid momentum. A little less is more - with Levit and Argerich.
I'm really pleased that Minsoo Sohn is getting such favorable attention. I had the honor of hearing him live a few months ago in New York doing an all-Liszt program, and his Transcendental Etudes were - well, transcendental. At this point he's probably best-known as the teacher-mentor of some upstart 20-year-old South Korean who won a minor competition or two. But I'd really like to know where to find Sohn's Beethoven set on CDs. Fortunately one can download all his LvB sonatas for free from his website, but I like physical product.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 02, 2024, 11:39:39 AMBut I'd really like to know where to find Sohn's Beethoven set on CDs.
Before I bought the downloads, I scoured North American, European, Australian, and East Asian online retailers for a physical copy. It was nowhere to be found even at GMarket, so it appears to have been a digital only release.
I'm listening to Sohn only because I'd never heard him play anything before. So far his Op 2/2 is very impressive. While I like the idea of finding the best of the best I also like the idea of doing this on an individual basis - what is the best overall Op 2/1 out all the recordings? Needless to say there are not enough hours in the day to even begin to start such a mammoth task. Just deciding on one sonata would be hard enough.
Looking forward to Op 2/3
Quote from: Conrad Veidt fan on August 02, 2024, 09:32:26 AMand I hear what Beethoven would have heard
Indeed!
QuoteTo each his own and these reviews are highly personal and subjective after all. I enjoy Levit, despite your suggestion that he hasn't anything 'new' to say about the Beethoven Sonatas. It's his intensity that I appreciate; his suggestion that this is 'fearless' music is what initially caught my attention. My one criticism of Levit is his speed which is often of Argerich-inspired proportions in its rapid momentum. A little less is more - with Levit and Argerich.
Add me to the pile of people that find Levit all around mediocre in the Beethoven Sonatas.
If fearlessness or intensity is what you desire Annie Fischer did it a hundred times better. There are some live recordings of Argerich playing some early sonatas, they are better than Levit, let's not drag her down.
Quote from: Atriod on August 02, 2024, 04:25:14 PMIndeed!
Add me to the pile of people that find Levit all around mediocre in the Beethoven Sonatas.
If fearlessness or intensity is what you desire Annie Fischer did it a hundred times better. There are some live recordings of Argerich playing some early sonatas, they are better than Levit, let's not drag her down.
Oh, OK. I have long had issues with Argerich, to be honest. But I'm still prepared to give Levit a go, despite his wacky comments about liking rap music!!
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"sublimated fire" -- where did you get that from? Aleistair Crowley?
Anyway -- Minsoo is a good new discovery for me, so thanks
@Todd
Quote from: Mandryka on August 03, 2024, 06:37:13 AM"sublimated fire" -- where did you get that from? Aleistair Crowley?
I scribbled it on my own.
Quote from: Conrad Veidt fan on August 02, 2024, 08:11:54 PMOh, OK. I have long had issues with Argerich, to be honest. But I'm still prepared to give Levit a go, despite his wacky comments about liking rap music!!
Cool, I like Igor Levit even more now.
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I don't have all these sets. I have Sohn, Fischer, both Kempffs, Heidsieck, and Gulda. Lucchesini and Pienaar on order. Also Levit, FFG, Goode, Kovacevich, and Nat. Some of the Schnabels. All kinds of singles including some Sherman, Casadesus, Badura-Skoda, Crawford, and Rosen. Might be fun to pick a sonata or two and do a parallel comparison of my own.
When I was younger and more active as a piano player (I'd never call myself a pianist), I would often read through almost all the sonatas except for those movements that defeated me completely like the finales of 101 and 106. Of the opp. 2's, #1 is the most gratifying to play, and #2 a real bitch with a lot of awkward stretches, broken octaves, and hand-crossings in the first movement especially. I would say #2 is technically much harder than #3, even though #3 is in a more concertante style. The first movement of 7 is very fatiguing, which may be why I'm not a big fan of the piece, but the slow movement is extremely gratifying to play and IMO the high point of the sonata.
Really looking forward to seeing how this thread turns out. How will you handle the tensions between blind faith in saints against your scientific objectivity? Whatever route that takes we are in for an informative, insightful treat over the remainder of the month. Be interesting to see whether rankings have changed for op31.3 when you revisit. Yet another remarkable and challenging undertaking from you Todd!
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 04, 2024, 07:18:29 AMI don't have all these sets. I have Sohn, Fisher, both Kempffs, Heidsieck, and Gulda. Lucchesini and Pienaar on order. Also Levit, FFG, Goode, Kovacevich, and Nat. Some of the Schnabels. All kinds of singles including some Sherman, Casadesus, Badura-Skoda, Crawford, and Rosen. Might be fun to pick a sonata or two and do a parallel comparison of my own.
When I was younger and more active as a piano player (I'd never call myself a pianist), I would often read through almost all the sonatas except for those movements that defeated me completely like the finales of 101 and 106. Of the opp. 2's, #1 is the most gratifying to play, and #2 a real bitch with a lot of awkward stretches, broken octaves, and hand-crossings in the first movement especially. I would say #2 is technically much harder than #3, even though #3 is in a more concertante style. The first movement of 7 is very fatiguing, which may be why I'm not a big fan of the piece, but the slow movement is extremely gratifying to play and IMO the high point of the sonata.
I'd enjoy reading these playing notes for the rest of the series as a little interruption and palate cleanser to the gravely important objective rankings. I listened to Op. 2 on Thursday (Lucchesini) but now already want to listen again.
As an aside, I have Lucchesini, Heidsieck, FFG, Barenboim (DG), Scherbakov, and Yusuke Kikuchi (download). And the incomplete sets of Gilels and Serkin. Just three first-tier contenders! For shame! ;D Not
really looking to acquire more, but the Sohn description is exciting, and it doesn't take up any space in the house. Maybe the big Kempff Edition box will drop to a price that is impossible to resist, but my resistance is strong since I have all that music in several performances by others already. Apparently, the new box's mono Appassionata has 8 bars missing from the finale.
Quote from: Brian on August 04, 2024, 12:35:08 PMApparently, the new box's mono Appassionata has 8 bars missing from the finale.
But which 8?
(As an aside, let me point out that Beethoven very specifically instructs the pianist to take the repeat of the second half of the finale. Why? I theorize that the new theme near the start of the development, in B-Flat minor, sounds like a subdominant of F minor when the section is played twice, and thus gives the usual subdominant balance to this sonata-form movement. No doubt because Beethoven specifically says to take the repeat, most pianists in my admittedly limited acquaintance do not.)
Quote from: Brian on August 04, 2024, 12:35:08 PMApparently, the new box's mono Appassionata has 8 bars missing from the finale.
That is present on every digital release of the mono cycle, only the LPs are correct. I verified that with my first pressing CD mono cycle box set when I received the Wilhelm Kempff Edition box.
Nothing is remastered on the Wilhelm Kempff Edition box, they just used the existing masters. The pre-war/acoustic recordings were licensed from APR and are digitally identical to APR's releases, except for the pre-war Beethoven Piano Concerto recordings where DG used their own older transfers instead of APR's.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 04, 2024, 02:04:29 PMBut which 8?
QuoteThanks to Hank Drake for pointing this out.
This is screwy.
There are eight missing bars in the 1951 mono recording of Beethoven's Sonata 23 "Appassionata".
It happens @4:47 in the third movement coda, where the sequence of galloping presto chords should be heard four times - twice in F minor, twice in A-flat major.
All four statements were played on DG's original LP (and on the 1964 stereo remake).
But on CD, the sequence is played only three times.
This is an editing error.
It dates to 1995 when DG transferred the mono performance to CD (Kempff died in 1991).
Quote from: Hobby on August 04, 2024, 12:17:06 PMHow will you handle the tensions between blind faith in saints against your scientific objectivity?
One must trust the science.
Quote from: Atriod on August 04, 2024, 02:20:43 PMThat is present on every digital release of the mono cycle, only the LPs are correct. I verified that with my first pressing CD mono cycle box set when I received the Wilhelm Kempff Edition box.
Nothing is remastered on the Wilhelm Kempff Edition box, they just used the existing masters. The pre-war/acoustic recordings were licensed from APR and are digitally identical to APR's releases, except for the pre-war Beethoven Piano Concerto recordings where DG used their own older transfers instead of APR's.
Thank you for saving me the effort of hunting this down. However, someone reasonably skilled in using a sound editing program could restore the missing first repeat of the A-flat major material (what you're calling the third statement), perhaps with a subtle splice of half a measure from the stereo edition since statement 3 ends on a quarter followed by an eighth note rest, vs. steady sixteenths at the end of statement 4.
But to his credit, Kempff takes the indicated repeat of the whole development-recap section, and ignores the spurious ritardando at measures 326-27, which both the Henle edition and Rosen believe was a misprint for a rinforzando. His tempo too, not a prestissimo perpetuum mobile but a true Allegro ma non troppo as written, follows Bülow's precept that the finale is usually played too quickly and the variations too slowly.
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Quote from: Todd on August 05, 2024, 04:18:23 AMOp 10/1
Emil Gilels – The entire opening Allegro molto e con brio comes off as an Andante, albeit one with massive forte blasts. At 11'45", the Adagio drags on, sapping the music of any vitality. The Prestissimo sounds too slow and enervated, though the obvious skill in being able to stretch out some of the runs so evenly over a slow-ish tempo cannot be denied. Overall, this is not a good recording.
I eventually got used to most of the sometimes very slow Gilels performances but not this one. The first movement simply doesn't work at that pace and while I remember finding mvmt 2+3 as a bit more convinving than you do, this might be least successful performance in the whole DG Gilels Beethoven box.
QuoteFriedrich Gulda (Amadeo) – Super-quick, super-accurate ascending arpeggios kick off a high energy opening Allegro, with an attractive, contained Adagio to follow, and one that mixes slow and zippy perfectly. The Prestissimo is turbocharged and fun. High end.
This is a very good one and a piece that fits Gulda's approach well although I probably prefer slightly more flexible versions not in complete cycles, such as Kocsis on a single Philips disc and Gelber in his Denon 2/3 cycle.
Good find
@Todd, the Mejoueva - thanks. I've never heard any of her Beethoven before.
I am just noticing that Backhaus stereo was not included, but Kempff mono and stereo DG cycles were. Was Backhaus stereo so far behind that it didn't meet the criteria? I know my own personal opinion of it versus the mono cycle but I am curious.
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Quote from: Mandryka on August 03, 2024, 06:37:13 AM"sublimated fire" -- where did you get that from? Aleistair Crowley?
Anyway -- Minsoo is a good new discovery for me, so thanks @Todd
What are your impressions of Minsoo Sohn? He is being praised in this thread, and I have re-listened to him again a couple of times. Each time there is a clear association with Hans Christian Andersen's fairy tale
The Nightingale.
Quote from: AnotherSpin on August 06, 2024, 10:01:49 PMWhat are your impressions of Minsoo Sohn? He is being praised in this thread, and I have re-listened to him again a couple of times. Each time there is a clear association with Hans Christian Andersen's fairy tale The Nightingale.
Well said. I've only heard him in the last three sonatas - they are magnificent and I can fully understand how they do indeed work the magic of a benevolent force of nature like Hans Andersen's nightingale. Totally life affirming, joyful music making, strong without a hint of bombast. Lots of sublimated fire in the op 111 variations. I may listen to op 106 later.
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Quote from: San Antone on August 02, 2024, 06:49:55 AMI appreciate the results of your efforts. Thanks - very entertaining.
Same here!
Quote from: Todd on August 06, 2024, 04:30:27 AMOp 10/2
Annie Fischer – Zippier and rougher in the Allegro than Lucchesini, the playing sounds intensely fun. In the second movement, Menuetto outer sections have tension and the trio sounds nearly bouncy, rhythmically speaking. The (repeatless – boo!) Presto retains the bounce and though biting and heavier, is also high end stuff.
Small point, but in the finale Annie takes the first repeat - one of Beethoven's tiniest expositions - but not the second. Here since the two sections are exactly identical, a capable user of any sound editing program could restore the missing repeat very easily. This finale is in my opinion one of the most technically difficult movements in all of Beethoven. It's full of tricky repeated notes, scales, and broken octaves, even a few little trills that must be played on the weakest 4-5 fingers, and the whole must be played with utmost rhythmic precision at a very fast tempo. I've blundered my way through it numerous times. Charles Rosen heard in this movement the first precursor of Mendelssohn's style.
Quote from: Todd on August 07, 2024, 04:18:08 AMOp 10/3
Minsoo Sohn – Cool, quick, occasionally cutting, with mammoth dynamic swings, and perfectly realized and regulated tempo changes, Sohn delivers a humdinger of an opening Presto. The Largo is slow, serious as atherosclerosis, dramatic, with more of those big ol' dynamic swings, and tension aplenty. Yes, indeed, the climax is hard-hitting and powerful. The outer sections of the Menuetto offer both delicacy and firmness in perfect measure and the trio is quick, pokey 'n' punchy, and fun, or something approaching it. The Rondo starts with some seriously colorful playing and then moves into quick but perfectly controlled playing, with nary a note length nor dynamic level even one iota out of place. A monster recording.
Official Scientific Ranking
Minsoo Sohn - 1
Wow, Minsoo Sohn is really cleaning up here. I'll have to start listening to his downloads more seriously, and I'm sure the Yunchan fans on his Facebook adoration page will be pleased to hear such a favorable report of his teacher. This sonata is the biggest and grandest of the series so far, with a profound slow movement that I've always enjoyed playing. Actually, most of the slow movements in the sonatas are of only moderate technical difficulty, because (duh) they're slow. Even 106 is very playable and I've read through it countless times. For technical difficulty in a slow movement, the one that really stands out is 111, what with the boogie-woogie variation and the very difficult double trills.
Quote from: Todd on August 06, 2024, 04:30:27 AMOp 10/2
Andrea Lucchesini – The (repeatless – boo!) Presto has ample boogie and drive and fun. High end stuff.
Annie Fischer – The (repeatless – boo!) Presto retains the bounce and though biting and heavier, is also high end stuff.
Arthur Schnabel – the (repeatless – boo!) Presto bebops along to a satisfying conclusion.
Daniel-Ben Pienaar – The (repeatless – boo!) Presto is zany and comically fast and mucho effective. One of the very best.
Again, since there are no first/second endings to either repeated section in the Allegro or Finale, a reasonably competent sound editor could splice in these repeats seamlessly, for those who wish them. (Even Toscanini left out the repeat in the first movement of Symphony 5, which drives me crazy, but again it could be easily spliced in. Editing the missing repeat in the finale is not possible however, because there is a first and second repeat. But you could come close.)
I love the 'serious as atherosclerosis' for Minsoo Sohn here. On serious listening to him you are obviously more impressed than when you did the quick comparison with Scherbakov some time back.
I was wondering whether your scientific approach involved randomising the order of assessment for each Sonata to avoid risk of ennui for the later ones in the list. But expect you went for many repeat comparisons to avoid that?
The inconsistent repeat policy in Lucchesini might be due to this being from live concerts but I am also annoyed by some of them. (I probably don't care enough about op.10/2 to care about the repeats, but the repeat free 1st movement of op.2/1 makes the piece imbalanced as the first movement just becomes too short at under 3 min)
I agree that op.10/3 is one of Gilels' best (there is an even more passionate live recording on Brilliant), so is his op.2/3.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 07, 2024, 06:09:20 AMAgain, since there are no first/second endings to either repeated section in the Allegro or Finale, a reasonably competent sound editor could splice in these repeats seamlessly, for those who wish them.
Lucchesini's recording is taken from a recital performance. Schnabel recorded in the 78s era and chose to exclude the repeat, and it is as live as Lucchesini's take. St Annie chose cuts in her famously stitched together recording. Pienaar excluded it purposely in one of the most meticulously put together cycles out there, to the point where the recorded sound is purposely variable and un-SOTA. Recordings are taken as presented since they represent choices approved of by the artists. I say boo! to some of those choices.
Worse cuts are made in some upcoming recordings.
Quote from: Hobby on August 07, 2024, 07:13:28 AMI was wondering whether your scientific approach involved randomising the order of assessment for each Sonata to avoid risk of ennui for the later ones in the list.
I initially planned to listen in sonata order and pianist order, by first name, but abandoned that after 2/2. I jumped around the remaining thirty sonatas and randomly listened to the thirteen or fourteen recordings for each sonata selected. I did end with Op 111, though, as that is the only proper way to go.
Quote from: Todd on August 07, 2024, 07:22:39 AMRecordings are taken as presented since they represent choices approved of by the artists. I say boo! to some of those choices.
I do too, but it's not invariably clear that these choices were approved by the artists. The drop of 8 measures in 57 on Kempff mono was clearly not his choice. Distler, in reviewing Elly Ney's Beethoven on one of the DG boxes, makes the point:
QuoteI must mention one questionable editorial decision. In order to squeeze all of Elly Ney's stylish yet rough-hewn DG solo Beethoven sides on to a single disc, the producers edited out the "Appassionata" third-movement repeat that the pianist originally observed. Not only does this falsify Ney's interpretation, but it also goes against Beethoven's specific directive.
https://www.classicstoday.com/review/big-boxes-dgs-mono-era/?search=1
Editing errors may in other words supersede and falsify artists' intentions at times. It was pointed out to me by a friend that in the Sony Stravinsky box, there is an error in the 2nd movement of Jeu de Cartes where one of the variations has an extra repeat not found on the original LPs, and I was able to edit the WAV file to seamlessly remove the spurious measures. If I had sufficient time or interest, therefore, I would reinstate some of Beethoven's repeats in these sonatas despite what the artist may have chosen. I have done so with Toscanini's LvB 67; the repeat is what the composer wanted.
Quote from: Todd on August 07, 2024, 07:22:39 AMWorse cuts are made in some upcoming recordings.
No doubt.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 07, 2024, 07:47:29 AMI do too, but it's not invariably clear that these choices were approved by the artists.
It is in the four cited examples, and every recording from those four cycles.
Quote from: Todd on August 07, 2024, 07:51:19 AMIt is in the four cited examples, and every recording from those four cycles.
Sure, but as the consumer of these recordings, I can edit them as I wish for my own private listening so long as I don't share my edited versions with others or use them for any commercial purpose. CDs are not copy-protected. With the Stephen Hough Rachmaninoff concerto cycle, I didn't like hearing the audience applause, and I edited it out. With Bernstein's first Missa Solemnis, I didn't like that Sony put it out on two CDs when it would easily fit on one, and I made my own 1-CD version while also keeping the original discs.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 07, 2024, 08:09:53 AMSure, but as the consumer of these recordings, I can edit them as I wish for my own private listening so long as I don't share my edited versions with others or use them for any commercial purpose. CDs are not copy-protected. With the Stephen Hough Rachmaninoff concerto cycle, I didn't like hearing the audience applause, and I edited it out. With Bernstein's first Missa Solemnis, I didn't like that Sony put it out on two CDs when it would easily fit on one, and I made my own 1-CD version while also keeping the original discs.
The changes you mention seem rather different than adding back cuts. In any event, I just listen to recordings.
Quote from: Todd on August 07, 2024, 08:17:29 AMThe changes you mention seem rather different than adding back cuts. In any event, I just listen to recordings.
I usually do too, but in the one case it's just snipping out material and the other it's a copy-paste making sure I have the rhythms correct so that the join is seamless. In any event, I no longer have the zeal to do such things as when I was younger. It's just not important enough for me any more.
Minsoo Sohn in the 10/3 largo has a real operatic aria vibe - think Suicido from La Gioconda. I think that's a bit of a fresh take on it actually - perfectly valid. Whether you like the result is just taste.
Quote from: Mandryka on August 07, 2024, 12:51:34 AMWell said. I've only heard him in the last three sonatas - they are magnificent and I can fully understand how they do indeed work the magic of a benevolent force of nature like Hans Andersen's nightingale. Totally life affirming, joyful music making, strong without a hint of bombast. Lots of sublimated fire in the op 111 variations. I may listen to op 106 later.
I was meaning the second, artificial bird that sang by rote, the one which was praised by music master beyond measure ;)
Quote from: AnotherSpin on August 07, 2024, 11:44:16 PMI was meaning the second, artificial bird that sang by rote, the one which was praised by music master beyond measure ;)
:)
Well I don't think you're right to say he sings by rote.
Quote from: Mandryka on August 08, 2024, 12:45:50 AM:)
Well I don't think you're right to say he sings by rote.
Maybe, but I definitely hear something mechanical, too right and perfect to be natural.
Quote from: AnotherSpin on August 08, 2024, 01:45:01 AMMaybe, but I definitely hear something mechanical, too right and perfect to be natural.
That's South Korean training -- like in K-pop.
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Yes, the Annie Fischer Pathetique is one of my favorite solo piano recordings of anything! I should give it a listen today when I'm done with Mozart.
Quote from: Mandryka on August 08, 2024, 04:09:27 AMThat's South Korean training -- like in K-pop.
He studied at the New England Conservatory, and he counts Russell Sherman among his teachers. If I didn't know better, I'd say your post was a bit questionable in terms of cultural assumptions.
While I think Rudolf Serkin's solo Beethoven is somewhat overrated overall, his would probably be the Pathetique I'd pick, if I could have only one, partly because I think the philologically disputed repeat of the Grave makes a lot of sense.
Moravec is my favorite Pathetique.
I do so enjoy seeing forum experts on Korean culture post about Korean culture. It's most informative. I'll bet these experts read an interwebs article on the topic. Maybe two. Perhaps even zero.
A quarter of the way through, 8 of 32.
Aggregate positions so far
1 Minsoo Sohn 14 points
2 Annie Fischer 25
3 Andrea Lucchesini 26
4 Irina Mejoueva 41
5 Daniel-Ben Pienaar 43
6= Artur Schnabel 59
6= Wilhelm Kempff (M) 59
8 Yu Kosuge 71
9 Wilhelm Kempff (S) 73
10 Wilhelm Backhaus (M) 80
11 Russell Sherman 81
12 Eric Heidsieck 82
13 Friedrich Gulda 88
14 Emil Gilels 84+ (1 missing)
Re op 10/3 largo - I hope noone will mind if I put this here, it just seems where the Beethoven action is - anyway, the 10/3 largo seems like one of those Mozart piano fantasies. Same genre.
I want to hear Uchida play it! Live! I've learned she's better live.
Quote from: AnotherSpin on August 08, 2024, 01:45:01 AMMaybe, but I definitely hear something mechanical, too right and perfect to be natural.
I haven't yet heard MSS's Beethoven in any depth, but as likely the only person here who has heard him live, I would dispute that claim. His Liszt Transcendental Etudes were thrilling. What would you say about his famous young student, Yunchan Lim, who took the Cliburn at age 18 and has a similarly flawless technique, as well as exciting many audiences with the sensitivity and dynamism of his playing?
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 08, 2024, 07:46:26 AMI haven't yet heard MSS's Beethoven in any depth, but as likely the only person here who has heard him live, I would dispute that claim.
The claim about Sohn's playing is prima facie false. Multiple airings prove conclusively that the claim is buffoonish.
Quote from: Jo498 on August 08, 2024, 04:56:49 AMWhile I think Rudolf Serkin's solo Beethoven is somewhat overrated overall, his would probably be the Pathetique I'd pick, if I could have only one, partly because I think the philologically disputed repeat of the Grave makes a lot of sense.
This is an interesting idea, as the manuscript is lost and (according to Rosen in his book on the sonatas) the first edition is unclear on this point. However, both the Henle and Schenker editions (the only ones I own at present) start the repeat with the Allegro, and Rosen concurs without disputing the reasonableness of repeating the Grave. I have played it for myself both ways, and though the Grave is great fun to pound out on my home piano, I favor restarting from the Allegro. Why? well, for one thing the introduction is very long, and like the exposition it modulates from C minor to E-flat major (though the second subject of the exposition starts in E-flat minor). So if the introduction is repeated, then this modulation is heard
four times instead of three.
The idea of repeating material from the introduction to a first movement is something Beethoven might have learned from Mozart's D major quintet, and he does it occasionally in later works - the Tempest sonata and the opp. 127 and 130 quartets come to mind. But normally, as in the 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 7th symphonies and the Quartets opp. 59/3 and 74, once the introduction is over, it's gone for good just like the Tchaikovsky 1st piano concerto.
PS If I were to tinker electronically with Serkin, I'd drop his repeat of the Grave.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 08, 2024, 07:46:26 AMI haven't yet heard MSS's Beethoven in any depth, but as likely the only person here who has heard him live, I would dispute that claim. His Liszt Transcendental Etudes were thrilling. What would you say about his famous young student, Yunchan Lim, who took the Cliburn at age 18 and has a similarly flawless technique, as well as exciting many audiences with the sensitivity and dynamism of his playing?
I have not had the opportunity to hear Minsoo Sohn in concert, I am only aware of his performances of some of Beethoven's sonatas. His interpretations seem to me flawless externally and hollow internally. I don't recall listening to any of his Liszt recordings.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 08, 2024, 08:01:53 AMwell, for one thing the introduction is very long, and like the exposition it modulates from C minor to E-flat major (though the second subject of the exposition starts in E-flat minor). So if the introduction is repeated, then this modulation is heard four times instead of three.
This is what convinced me. Initially I really enjoyed the idea of returning to the introduction, because the exposition sets itself up so well to do so. It's very satisfying to get to that climax and then hear that dramatic first chord again. Feels like a payoff in a way that repeats rarely do.
But...then you just hear that introductory material and those modulations too many times. The whole movement becomes sort of a giant ABABABAB form.
Quote from: AnotherSpin on August 08, 2024, 08:35:03 AMI have not had the opportunity to hear Minsoo Sohn in concert, I am only aware of his performances of some of Beethoven's sonatas. His interpretations seem to me flawless externally and hollow internally. I don't recall listening to any of his Liszt recordings.
He hasn't recorded Liszt. Not all pianists record everything in their repertoire. I do not know what "hollow internally" means.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 08, 2024, 08:46:22 AMHe hasn't recorded Liszt. Not all pianists record everything in their repertoire. I do not know what "hollow internally" means.
No problem.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 08, 2024, 08:46:22 AMHe hasn't recorded Liszt.
He has recorded some Liszt:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51PQYyGs-GL._UF425,425_QL80_.jpg)
He has also recorded the Goldbergs, and so far those along with the 32 are his only recordings.
Quote from: Todd on August 08, 2024, 08:48:50 AMHe has recorded some Liszt:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51PQYyGs-GL._UF425,425_QL80_.jpg)
He has also recorded the Goldbergs, and so far those along with the 32 are his only recordings.
Oops. My bad. I didn't know about that Liszt recording.
Quote from: AnotherSpin on August 08, 2024, 08:35:03 AMI am only aware of his performances of some of Beethoven's sonatas. His interpretations seem to me flawless externally and hollow internally.
I've listened to some Beethoven sonata clips on Sohn's homepage. They remind me of Gieseking, although Sohn's technical precision and the recording quality seem far better.
Quote from: Brian on August 08, 2024, 08:37:19 AMThis is what convinced me. Initially I really enjoyed the idea of returning to the introduction, because the exposition sets itself up so well to do so. It's very satisfying to get to that climax and then hear that dramatic first chord again. Feels like a payoff in a way that repeats rarely do. But...then you just hear that introductory material and those modulations too many times. The whole movement becomes sort of a giant ABABABAB form.
I agree that returning to the first C minor chord following the first exposition is very satisfying, but I think there are problems restating the entire Grave. Not only what you say, but the Grave occurs - briefly! - following the second exposition, to transition from G minor to E minor at the start of the development. Then once more again briefly to start the coda, following a crashing F# diminished seventh at the end of the recap, where here the V9/IV progression provides the usual subdominant balance. That's three undisputed statements of the introductory material; would not another (i.e., a repeat of the whole introduction) be superfluous?
(Does anybody besides Serkin repeat the entire Grave? A question for Todd.)
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 08, 2024, 08:46:22 AMHe hasn't recorded Liszt.
Oh yes he has
https://open.spotify.com/album/5JGzC06xholn8Vf0H1tYGl
I can also let you have an upublished recording from his QE competition -- Rach 3, Mozart PC 24, LvB 22, Schumann Carnival and a Haydn sonata (60 is the number on the tag -- but Haydn numbering is weird.)
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 08, 2024, 09:16:21 AMDoes anybody besides Serkin repeat the entire Grave? A question for Todd.
Schiff famously does, and there is a lecture online where he describes why, citing Serkin specifically. I know a few others do, though none jump to mind immediately. I'd have to review my collection.
Quote from: Mandryka on August 08, 2024, 09:41:56 AMOh yes he has
https://open.spotify.com/album/5JGzC06xholn8Vf0H1tYGl
I can also let you have an upublished recording from his QE competition -- Rach 3, Mozart PC 24, LvB 22, Schumann Carnival and a Haydn sonata (60 is the number on the tag -- but Haydn numbering is weird.)
I already accepted correction on the Liszt point. Would be interested in your QE recording.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 08, 2024, 10:05:00 AMI already accepted correction on the Liszt point. Would be interested in your QE recording.
I'll send it to you tomorrow -- if anyone else wants the files, let me know.
There's also a commercial recording of The Goldberg Variations.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 08, 2024, 08:01:53 AMThis is an interesting idea, as the manuscript is lost and (according to Rosen in his book on the sonatas) the first edition is unclear on this point. However, both the Henle and Schenker editions (the only ones I own at present) start the repeat with the Allegro, and Rosen concurs without disputing the reasonableness of repeating the Grave. I have played it for myself both ways, and though the Grave is great fun to pound out on my home piano, I favor restarting from the Allegro. Why? well, for one thing the introduction is very long, and like the exposition it modulates from C minor to E-flat major (though the second subject of the exposition starts in E-flat minor). So if the introduction is repeated, then this modulation is heard four times instead of three.
There was a guy on a German language forum who argued quite convincingly for the Serkin way and he claimed that the Grave was not really an introduction in the usual sense, partly because it is repeated later in the piece. He had more arguments but I don't remember them (he was a bit obsessed with exposition repeats in general but with good reasons).
There is a similar dispute in Chopin's 2nd, isn't there?
Anyway, Serkin is the only one I am aware of who does this, except for Schiff. There are both fairly smart guys, so they must have their good reasons. And the piece fits Serkin's gruff approach regardless of that particular choice.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 08, 2024, 09:16:21 AMDoes anybody besides Serkin repeat the entire Grave? A question for Todd.
I reviewed my complete cycle collection and identified the below five cycles beyond Schiff. There is a chance that I missed one or two. I did not review my non-cycle collection, and I am pretty sure another one or two lurk in there.
Ikuyo Nakamichi
Takahiro Sonoda I & II
Anton Kuerti
Angela Hewitt
Quote from: Jo498 on August 08, 2024, 01:39:11 PMThere was a guy on a German language forum who argued quite convincingly for the Serkin way and he claimed that the Grave was not really an introduction in the usual sense, partly because it is repeated later in the piece. He had more arguments but I don't remember them (he was a bit obsessed with exposition repeats in general but with good reasons).
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it is a duck. The introduction to the Pathétique behaves in every possible way like any number of introductions in classical sonata allegros, for example being slow and rather loosely organized. Compare the 2nd and 4th symphonies. Schiff also makes the point that this intro with its dotted rhythms has its roots in the slow opening section of the baroque French overture. And I have already given several examples above where both Mozart and Beethoven bring back material from an introduction in later parts of the movement.
Quote from: Jo498 on August 08, 2024, 01:39:11 PMThere is a similar dispute in Chopin's 2nd, isn't there?
I presume you're talking about the B-flat minor Sonata. I mainly know this issue from Rosen's book on The Romantic Revolution, where he claims that the repeat should start from the four bars of Grave at the start of the movement. Many pianists start the repeat from the Doppio movimento at the fifth bar in B-flat minor, and that's the way the sonata is often published. Rosen claims this is musically ungrammatical, and you can read a summary of the issue here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_Sonata_No._2_(Chopin) - scroll to Repeat of the exposition
Whatever the case, there's no doubt these 4 bars of Grave are an introduction, and are very short and in not quite as slow a tempo as the 10 bars of intro from LvB op. 13. Personally, though I would never argue directly with Rosen (who would be convinced I'm wrong because I'm a very stupid guy and he's right because he's a very smart guy, and besides he's dead), I think a musically valid case could be made for starting the repeat at the fifth bar, at the Doppio movimento.
Quote from: Jo498 on August 08, 2024, 01:39:11 PMAnyway, Serkin is the only one I am aware of who does this, except for Schiff. There are both fairly smart guys, so they must have their good reasons. And the piece fits Serkin's gruff approach regardless of that particular choice.
This is circular reasoning. They're smart so they must have good reasons. And their reasons must be good because they're smart. Rosen prefers to start the repeat from the Allegro. Does that mean he's not smart?
It's more an apppeal to authority but as I don't know Serkin's & Schiff's explicit reasons, I cannot quote them but must assume they have good ones. Others might have done it for quirkiness but Serkin and Schiff are not quirky guys, so it's fair to assume they thought about it.
Your argument that other introductions are not repeated does not prove very much because every piece is different and some slow introductions are in fact repeated. E.g. in op.130, the Beethoven movement that might be the closest in this respect to op.13.
I don't have time to summarize it now but here's a link to that German guy, maybe you can translate it with a program. (I think he's wrong wrt Arrau, at least for the 1960s recording that might not be the one intended.) The core argument are the transitions between expo -> repeat, expo -> development, recap ->coda and he claims that they are clumsy/inconsistent without the Grave repeat.
https://www.tamino-klassikforum.at/index.php?thread/3929-beethoven-klaviersonate-nr-8-in-c-moll-op-13-pathetique/&postID=92827#post92827
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 08, 2024, 03:17:08 PMThis is circular reasoning. They're smart so they must have good reasons. And their reasons must be good because they're smart. Rosen prefers to start the repeat from the Allegro. Does that mean he's not smart?
The assertion that they are smart is justified by the fact that they have often had good reasons in the past.
The fact they have often had good reasons in the past is evidence for assertion that their reasons are good now.
(I have zero to say about the Pathetique sonata by the way.)
.
Quote from: Mandryka on August 09, 2024, 03:48:51 AMThe assertion that they are smart is justified by the fact that they have often had good reasons in the past.
The fact they have often had good reasons in the past is evidence for assertion that their reasons are good now.
Not necessarily. The assertions must all be evaluated on their merits, not past experience. Plenty of people have had good ideas in the past but have also gone off the deep ends later.
Quote from: Jo498 on August 09, 2024, 01:51:26 AMIt's more an apppeal to authority but as I don't know Serkin's & Schiff's explicit reasons, I cannot quote them but must assume they have good ones. Others might have done it for quirkiness but Serkin and Schiff are not quirky guys, so it's fair to assume they thought about it.
Your argument that other introductions are not repeated does not prove very much because every piece is different and some slow introductions are in fact repeated. E.g. in op.130, the Beethoven movement that might be the closest in this respect to op.13.
I don't have time to summarize it now but here's a link to that German guy, maybe you can translate it with a program. (I think he's wrong wrt Arrau, at least for the 1960s recording that might not be the one intended.) The core argument are the transitions between expo -> repeat, expo -> development, recap ->coda and he claims that they are clumsy/inconsistent without the Grave repeat.
https://www.tamino-klassikforum.at/index.php?thread/3929-beethoven-klaviersonate-nr-8-in-c-moll-op-13-pathetique/&postID=92827#post92827
I'll need some time with your tamino post, weil heute mein deutsch sehr schlecht ist.
I did in fact mention op. 130 upthread. Yes, that is a completely repeated introduction, but it is tonally very neutral not modulating beyond B-flat while the op. 13 does effect a modulation and is much longer. There's no doubt that hearing that opening C-minor chord again is very effective, but as it goes on I am less convinced.
As for argument from authority, not quirky guys, fairly smart guys, fair to assume they've thought about it, good ideas in the past, etc., etc., none of that addresses the issue, which should be discussed only on the merits of the evidence - about which reasonable people may disagree.
For Schiff's reasoning, see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpNtraewxec&t=239s, at 2:43.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 09, 2024, 08:26:50 AMNot necessarily.
Indeed. You can evidence for X and X is false nonetheless.
At least we're now on to the uncomplicated Op. 14s, technically some of the easiest sonatas in the bunch. There are a few minor technical pitfalls in the broken thirds in the first movement of 14/1, but nothing to speak of. The E major is the sonata that LvB himself arranged for string quartet, transposing it up a semitone to take advantage of the cello's open C string. I think the outstanding movement here is the melancholy Allegretto in E minor, which somehow sounds a bit to me like Brahms. The variations movement in op. 14/2 is among the easiest things to play in all of Beethoven, along with the tiny sonatinas from op. 49.
.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 09, 2024, 08:26:50 AMNot necessarily. The assertions must all be evaluated on their merits, not past experience. Plenty of people have had good ideas in the past but have also gone off the deep ends later.
The ultimate beauty of music being that there is both no ultimate performance and no going off the deep ends --- for each case there is at least one (very knowledgeable) person who disagrees.
The most up-to-date scientific facts & figures incontrovertibly prove the ancient wisdom that one's man treasure is another man's trash.
Nothing is more predictable than Florestan posting a platitude.
Speaking of predictability, the winners of this bizarre contest were obvious from the start.
Quote from: AnotherSpin on August 10, 2024, 08:53:26 PMSpeaking of predictability, the winners of this bizarre contest were obvious from the start.
With 22 sonatas to go, it ain't over till it's over.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 10, 2024, 08:57:25 PMWith 22 sonatas to go, it ain't over till it's over.
Expect no surprises from science.
Quote from: AnotherSpin on August 10, 2024, 08:53:26 PMSpeaking of predictability, the winners of this bizarre contest were obvious from the start.
Do you mean obvious after the first few rankings, or obvious before the results even started coming in?
I have wondered whether the relative dominance of newer artists marks a natural progression in skill or interpretation, or whether it shows a matching evolution in Todd's
taste objective ranking criteria.
Quote from: AnotherSpin on August 10, 2024, 08:53:26 PMSpeaking of predictability, the winners of this bizarre contest were obvious from the start.
It's not a contest. I will put your misuse of English down to the fact that English is not your native language.
Quote from: Brian on August 11, 2024, 04:24:13 AMI have wondered whether the relative dominance of newer artists marks a natural progression in skill or interpretation, or whether it shows a matching evolution in Todd's taste objective ranking criteria.
As science progresses, with enhanced understanding and improved observations, it is only natural that outcomes differ.
.
Quote from: Brian on August 11, 2024, 04:24:13 AMDo you mean obvious after the first few rankings, or obvious before the results even started coming in?
I have wondered whether the relative dominance of newer artists marks a natural progression in skill or interpretation, or whether it shows a matching evolution in Todd's taste objective ranking criteria.
There's a goodly mix here of classic and new artists. I'd like to hear the Irina Mejoueva, but the ordering information on Bijin is all in Japanese.
There are a few copies on eBay, but they're kind of expensive. Oh what the hell . . . .
I'll put this here because I can
Quote from: Todd on February 07, 2009, 08:33:58 AMI'll flesh mine out a bit, listing my "top" five for each sonata. (This list is of course subject to change.)
Gulda = Amadeo cycle unless noted
Fischer = Annie Fischer, Hungaroton cycle unless noted
Backhaus = Mono cycle unless noted
Kempff = Mono cycle unless noted
2/1 – Fischer, Gulda, Pollini, Perahia, Schnabel
2/2 – Schnabel, Fischer, Gulda, Gulda (Orfeo), Hungerford
2/3 – Perahia, Fischer, Gulda, Backhaus, Brautigam
7 – Michelangeli (BBC Legends), Kempff, Hungerford, O'Conor, Backhaus
10/1 – Frank, Gulda, Fischer, O'Conor, Pollini
10/2 – Frank, Gulda, Fischer, Kovacevich, Pollini
10/3 – Kovacevich, Fischer, Frank, Gulda, Zacharias
13 – Serkin (1945), Serkin (1960s), Nat, Moravec, Schnabel
14/1 – Backhaus, Silverman, Gieseking (Tahra), Richter (BBC Legends), Nat
14/2 – Backhaus, Richter (BBC Legends), Willems, Pludermacher, Foldes
22 – Pommier, Michelangeli (Lugano, 1981), Heidsieck, Gulda, Brendel II
26 – Willems, Frank, Michelangeli (BBC Legends), Gulda, Silverman
27/1 – Lucchesini, Kempff, Gulda, Nakamichi, Levinas
27/2 – Backhaus, Arrau, Fischer (EMI, stereo), Gieseking (EMI), Firkusny
28 – Kempff (stereo), Kempff, Silverman, Levinas, Nakamichi
31/1 – Gulda, Frank, Kuerti, Sherman, Silverman
31/2 – Gulda, Backhaus (stereo), Backhaus, Nat, Fischer
31/3 – Gulda, Gieseking (Tahra), Fischer, Nat, Lucchesini
49/1,2 – Heidsieck, Kovacevich, O'Conor, Kempff, Lewis
53 – Gulda, Silverman, Gilels, Pollini (1997), Serkin
54 – Richter (RCA), Fischer, Kempff, Heidsieck, Ciani
57 – Fischer, Richter (RCA), Serkin (1947), Lipkin, Casadesus
78 – Backhaus (stereo), Silverman, O'Conor, Kempff, Lucchesini
79 – Backhaus (stereo), Lucchesini, Silverman, O'Conor, Kempff
81a – Serkin, Backhaus (stereo), Kempff, Lucchesini, Badura-Skoda (Gramola)
90 – Fischer, Kovacevich, Moravec, Lucchesini, Brendel II
101 – Schnabel, Kovacevich, Kempff, Barenboim III, Lipkin
106 – Pollini, Serkin, Fischer, Gulda, Frank
109 - Serkin, Gieseking (EMI), Brendel II, Kempff, Horszowski
110 - Gieseking (EMI), Fischer, Kempff, Silverman (Orpheum), Levinas
111 – Pollini, Serkin, Fischer, Sheppard, Silverman (Orpheum)
Quote from: Mandryka on August 11, 2024, 07:25:14 AMI'll put this here because I can
That's from 2009. That's about eighty cycles ago.
Quote from: Todd on August 11, 2024, 07:29:37 AMThat's from 2009. That's about eighty cycles ago.
Science evolves.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 11, 2024, 07:43:21 AMScience evolves.
Indeed it does.
One phenomenon I have witnessed on this forum and on other fora is that it is quite common for many listeners, particularly those who are middle aged, to believe that performers from around mid-century possessed all the secrets, knew the proper style, played the correct way, etc. The recordings tend to come from the magnetic tape mono period to roughly the onset of the digital era a generation later. A few interpreters from the 78s era (Schnabel, say) and a few interpreters from the digital era (Brendel, say) may be considered top notch Beethoven interpreters, to stick with the topic of this thread. Generally, interpreters from the 50s through the mid-80s are held up as the standard-bearers. People who have passed from the scene may have had other ideas, and people in their teens, twenties, and thirties may hear things differently, as well. Performance styles evolve, along with science.
Poked my head in here and was reminded of the existence of the Annie Fischer cycle, which I am accustomed to seeing praised to the high heavens, but which I have never heard because it has been (to me) cost prohibitive. But now I am a streamer, so I listened to Sonata No 1. It is nice! :)
Quote from: Todd on August 11, 2024, 07:56:52 AMIndeed it does.
One phenomenon I have witnessed on this forum and on other fora is that it is quite common for many listeners, particularly those who are middle aged, to believe that performers from around mid-century possessed all the secrets, knew the proper style, played the correct way, etc. The recordings tend to come from the magnetic tape mono period to roughly the onset of the digital era a generation later. A few interpreters from the 78s era (Schnabel, say) and a few interpreters from the digital era (Brendel, say) may be considered top notch Beethoven interpreters, to stick with the topic of this thread. Generally, interpreters from the 50s through the mid-80s are held up as the standard-bearers. People who have passed from the scene may have had other ideas, and people in their teens, twenties, and thirties may hear things differently, as well. Performance styles evolve, along with science.
I have a friend who refuses to hear any recordings of Mozart, Beethoven, or above all Bach issued after 1975. You might as well think all living performers might as well give up, and we should all just listen to Schnabel, Moravec, Serkin, Horowitz, Richter, Cortot, etc. (to keep this with pianists) because no one these days knows how to "phrase," as if is even possible
not to phrase. And if these older recordings are issued in dismal sound, all the better. I haven't cared for all the artists in the list above (Heidsieck seems to me eccentric, Gulda stiff and mechanical, though I recently heard a great Hammerklavier), but I definitely want to hear some of these new voices to challenge my embedded ideas of what can be done with these thrice-familiar works.
On the basis of the written texts for op 22 I'd have expected Kosuge and Sherman to come 5th and 6th but that's not scientific!
Quote from: Spotted Horses on August 11, 2024, 08:18:45 AMPoked my head in here and was reminded of the existence of the Annie Fischer cycle, which I am accustomed to seeing praised to the high heavens, but which I have never heard because it has been (to me) cost prohibitive. But now I am a streamer, so I listened to Sonata No 1. It is nice! :)
The complete Fischer cycle comes up from time to time on eBay, where you can now get a copy for about $225. Expensive? well maybe, but the individual CDs are pricey too, and if it matters to you the sonatas are not issued in chronological order. If I'm willing to pay $100 or more for a live concert, paying $225 for 9 CDs does not seem that unreasonable. What I especially like about Fischer, particularly in slow movements, is the almost operatic freedom she brings to her phrasing, almost opposite to the stiffness I hear in Gulda.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 11, 2024, 08:32:54 AMThe complete Fischer cycle comes up from time to time on eBay, where you can now get a copy for about $225. Expensive? well maybe, but the individual CDs are pricey too, and if it matters to you the sonatas are not issued in chronological order. If I'm willing to pay $100 or more for a live concert, paying $225 for 9 CDs does not seem that unreasonable. What I especially like about Fischer, particularly in slow movements, is the almost operatic freedom she brings to her phrasing, almost opposite to the stiffness I hear in Gulda.
$225 sound unreasonable to me, since now I can stream it at no marginal cost. At a lower cost (what is typical these days for a back catalog Beethoven cycle) I would be willing to get it just to have it in a tidy package.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 11, 2024, 08:22:51 AMI have a friend who refuses to hear any recordings of Mozart, Beethoven, or above all Bach issued after 1975.
We live in the golden age of keyboardists, with the average level of technical accomplishment beyond what came before, and with interpretive insights to at least match what came before. Not listening to artists in the here and now relegates classical music to the dustbin of history.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 11, 2024, 08:32:54 AMThe complete Fischer cycle comes up from time to time on eBay, where you can now get a copy for about $225. Expensive?
Nowadays, I consider over $100 for a domestic market cycle to be expensive - but I will buy. For foreign market cycles, that's the lowest price, basically. I've happily spent >~$300/cycle on several Japanese market cycles and will likely do so in the future. Not everything can be streamed in all markets. Plus, I want to own LvB sonata cycles.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on August 11, 2024, 08:42:35 AM$225 sound unreasonable to me, since now I can stream it at no marginal cost. At a lower cost (what is typical these days for a back catalog Beethoven cycle) I would be willing to get it just to have it in a tidy package.
I still prefer physical product when I can. I previously streamed/downloaded the Fischers but now have a physical copy. I like the packaging, also the notes, and I can take a CD with me for the car, where I do a good deal of listening.
The disadvantage of the physical Annie Fischer set for me is that the sonatas aren't in the right order. Listening now to op 110, on Disc 1, sandwiched between op 10/2 and op 27/1 (waiting for some of that operatic phrasing in this most cantabile music)
It is clearly a magnificent performance of a magnificent piece of music, and it probably deserves all the praise it receives.
Quote from: Mandryka on August 11, 2024, 09:17:18 AMThe disadvantage of the physical Annie Fischer set for me is that the sonatas aren't in the right order. Listening now to op 110, on Disc 1, sandwiched between op 10/2 and op 27/1 (waiting for some of that operatic phrasing in this most cantabile music)
It is clearly a magnificent performance of a magnificent piece of music, and it probably deserves all the praise it receives.
You might think of it as constructing a set of recital programs of a complete cycle, in which the pianist usually selects sonatas from each of the periods without concern for chronology. I don't know if Fischer herself chose which sonatas to appear on which CD, or whether they are the most successful pairings. But if the apparent randomness of the discs is unsatisfactory to you, there's always the option to extract the WAV files from the CD and burn a chronological set of your own. That is, if you want to put in the time and work.
Quote from: Todd on August 11, 2024, 04:37:41 AMIt's not a contest. I will put your misuse of English down to the fact that English is not your native language.
Name it whatever you want.
Op. 22 was a sonata of which Beethoven was particularly proud. Compositionally, his technique is as advanced and mature as anything written to this point, while perhaps not being a work of great individuality or expressiveness. Op. 13 and the largo of 10/3 surpass it in that respect. That's the paradox for me; 22 is flawlessly written, but in my opinion a bit dull. Technically for the pianist it is certainly more demanding than op. 14, without being extreme. The hardest passages are probably the trio of the minuet and certain parts of the rondo. But from here on the sonatas start acquiring more personality, as in the familiar but still astonishing Moonlight, and the three from op. 31 in which the musical language becomes far more original and surprising.
Quote from: AnotherSpin on August 11, 2024, 10:24:08 AMName it whatever you want.
Only you feel some strange impulsion to give it a name you like.
Quote from: Brian on August 11, 2024, 04:24:13 AMDo you mean obvious after the first few rankings, or obvious before the results even started coming in?
I have wondered whether the relative dominance of newer artists marks a natural progression in skill or interpretation, or whether it shows a matching evolution in Todd's taste objective ranking criteria.
Both.
In the second phrase, the word
objective should be replaced with the word
subjective. Of course, subjective assessment or ranking is perfectly valid. Yesterday one interpretation was liked, today a different one, tomorrow a third.
@Mandryka's post a bit above is most illustrative.
Quote from: Mandryka on August 11, 2024, 09:17:18 AMThe disadvantage of the physical Annie Fischer set for me is that the sonatas aren't in the right order.
Listening to music in chronological order isn't always necessary or even ideal. However, the seemingly random arrangement of sonatas in Annie's set might impair the overall experience. If this bothers me enough, I'll create a personal CDR copy with the sonatas arranged in my preferred sequence.
Quote from: Todd on August 11, 2024, 10:52:07 AMOnly you feel some strange impulsion to give it a name you like.
As you rightly pointed out, English is a foreign language to me. However, it seems to me that you quite understand what I mean.
Quote from: AnotherSpin on August 11, 2024, 10:56:28 AMIn the second phrase, the word objective should be replaced with the word subjective. Of course, subjective assessment or ranking is perfectly valid. Yesterday one interpretation was liked, today a different one, tomorrow a third. @Mandryka's post a bit above is most illustrative.
No one, perhaps except for Todd himself, has ever questioned that his scientific approach is entirely subjective, and the results he obtains sufficiently demonstrate this.
Quote from: prémont on August 11, 2024, 11:07:02 AMNo one, perhaps except for Todd himself, has ever questioned that his scientific approach is entirely subjective, and the results he obtains sufficiently demonstrate this.
Just as you previously misinterpreted my tiering, you misinterpret my posts in this thread.
Quote from: Todd on August 11, 2024, 11:10:15 AMJust as you previously misinterpreted my tiering, you misinterpret my posts in this thread.
I find many of your observations on the recordings, which I am quite familiar with, to be intriguing. However, the ranking you've placed beneath the commentary for each sonata seems at best completely subjective, and at worst nonsensical. Is there another way to interpret this?
Quote from: prémont on August 11, 2024, 11:16:13 AMIs there another way to interpret this?
You think too much about it.
Quote from: prémont on August 11, 2024, 11:16:13 AMI find many of your observations on the recordings, which I am quite familiar with, to be intriguing. However, the ranking you've placed beneath the commentary for each sonata seems at best completely subjective, and at worst nonsensical. Is there another way to interpret this?
Yes - hint, "tongue in cheek". Todd is making grandiose claims of "scientific objectivity" to make it obvious that these are the opposite, i.e. subjective rankings.
Quote from: San Antone on August 11, 2024, 11:43:03 AMYes - hint, "tongue in cheek". Todd is making grandiose claims of "scientific objectivity" to make it obvious that these are the opposite, i.e. subjective rankings.
I would go along with that.
Please, can we bring on op. 26?
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 11, 2024, 12:42:54 PMI would go along with that.
One would think the thread title alone would give away the game.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 11, 2024, 12:43:43 PMPlease, can we bring on op. 26?
It will be posted tomorrow morning.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 11, 2024, 08:32:54 AMThe complete Fischer cycle comes up from time to time on eBay, where you can now get a copy for about $225. Expensive? well maybe, but the individual CDs are pricey too, and if it matters to you the sonatas are not issued in chronological order. If I'm willing to pay $100 or more for a live concert, paying $225 for 9 CDs does not seem that unreasonable. What I especially like about Fischer, particularly in slow movements, is the almost operatic freedom she brings to her phrasing, almost opposite to the stiffness I hear in Gulda.
But in comparison, you can buy the digital downloads of the ENTIRE Fischer cycle for only $9.
Quote from: San Antone on August 11, 2024, 11:43:03 AMYes - hint, "tongue in cheek". Todd is making grandiose claims of "scientific objectivity" to make it obvious that these are the opposite, i.e. subjective rankings.
I truly value your unrestricted sense of logic. 8)
Quote from: DavidW on August 11, 2024, 01:19:24 PMBut in comparison, you can buy the digital downloads of the ENTIRE Fischer cycle for only $9.
Where? I only saw the full set as a cd set on presto. I only found the pricey individual sub-sets for download on presto and qobuz. Did I miss something?
Quote from: Spotted Horses on August 11, 2024, 01:35:55 PMWhere? I only saw the full set as a cd set on presto. I only found the pricey individual sub-sets for download on presto and qobuz. Did I miss something?
7digital, I bought it as flac a few years ago. Now it is only mp3/m4a but at 320k.
https://us.7digital.com/artist/annie-fischer-(1)/release/ludwig-van-beethoven-the-complete-piano-sonatas-32052708 (https://us.7digital.com/artist/annie-fischer-(1)/release/ludwig-van-beethoven-the-complete-piano-sonatas-32052708)
Quote from: DavidW on August 11, 2024, 01:19:24 PMBut in comparison, you can buy the digital downloads of the ENTIRE Fischer cycle for only $9.
What fun is that?
Pienaar's recording of the Sonata No. 11 is ugly. Of the versions at the top of the list Heidsieck's version is more preferable. Even Sohn's recording is better.
@Todd @AnotherSpin Have you heard Pogorelich play the adagio of op 22? It is very beautiful IMO, and interesting to compare with Pienaar of course. The aria quality of the music in Pogorelich is really impressive - like something out of Verdi - one of those arias for Desdemona - for piano.
I can let you have a rip of the sound
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ivo-Pogorelich-Recital-DVD/dp/B0007P357I/ref=sr_1_1?crid=7TGJ1CS9F1QU&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.1pvvzO5Z3CQ5IJJ1uGUViM6meAx4ZQ5Xc85IjRuSDkzVaqFGXeMCcFfFEsto0dF9q5KtFnmcyhbxlzsF2iLSOcGJvSvFtZa8m7Ukm3UMkRhWSaOtNQtqW86uY6e954D5pa-4l_yJckEP7uL-tDhyubD-DMloxAeB97i5Kglvee0.fWhLbLRaZtVgY2ndgpXIImebzOq03yPP1FG3PxOeOzM&dib_tag=se&keywords=Pogorelich+dvd&qid=1723453259&sprefix=pogorelich+dvd+%2Caps%2C91&sr=8-1
This comment on amazon has a little insight into one of Pogorelich's strengths, about treble beauty.
イギリス組曲が好きで購入。テンポが速めで硬いタッチの演奏です。スカルラッティーのアルバムでもそうでしたが、高音域の音の美しさが好きなピアニストです。
Quote from: Mandryka on August 12, 2024, 01:02:06 AM@Todd @AnotherSpin Have you heard Pogorelich play the adagio of op 22? It is very beautiful IMO, and interesting to compare with Pienaar of course. The aria quality of the music in Pogorelich is really impressive - like something out of Verdi - one of those arias for Desdemona - for piano.
I can let you have a rip of the sound
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ivo-Pogorelich-Recital-DVD/dp/B0007P357I/ref=sr_1_1?crid=7TGJ1CS9F1QU&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.1pvvzO5Z3CQ5IJJ1uGUViM6meAx4ZQ5Xc85IjRuSDkzVaqFGXeMCcFfFEsto0dF9q5KtFnmcyhbxlzsF2iLSOcGJvSvFtZa8m7Ukm3UMkRhWSaOtNQtqW86uY6e954D5pa-4l_yJckEP7uL-tDhyubD-DMloxAeB97i5Kglvee0.fWhLbLRaZtVgY2ndgpXIImebzOq03yPP1FG3PxOeOzM&dib_tag=se&keywords=Pogorelich+dvd&qid=1723453259&sprefix=pogorelich+dvd+%2Caps%2C91&sr=8-1
This comment on amazon has a little insight into one of Pogorelich's strengths, about treble beauty.
イギリス組曲が好きで購入。テンポが速めで硬いタッチの演奏です。スカルラッティーのアルバムでもそうでしたが、高音域の音の美しさが好きなピアニストです。
I haven't listened to this Pogorelich recording. I would be glad, thank you. I've been listening to all available Pogorelich recordings starting with LPs in the 80s with great interest.
.
I think Gilels' live Concertgebau recording of this one shows him in a better light. I find what he does really touching in the first movement, much more so than Sainte Annie - which is a bit too much like inflated and pompous bluster for me. I don't hear it as flowing like you do
@Todd, but that may be because I'm drunk slightly. Will check Mejoueva later.
Quote from: Mandryka on August 12, 2024, 05:49:33 AMI think Gilels' live Concertgebau recording of this one shows him in a better light.
Is it part of a complete cycle?
Quote from: Mandryka on August 12, 2024, 05:49:33 AMwhich is a bit too Beethoven style for me
Beethoven that's too Beethoven in style. Hmmm.
Quote from: Todd on August 12, 2024, 05:52:57 AMIs it part of a complete cycle?
Beethoven that's too Beethoven in style. Hmmm.
You're too quick - I was editing that so as not to cause too much contention!
Quote from: Todd on August 12, 2024, 05:52:57 AMIs it part of a complete cycle?
No. Here are some details
https://www.challengerecords.com/products/15209518455077/The%20Unreleased%20Recitals%20at%20The%20Concertgebouw%201975%20-%201976%20-%201978%20-%201979%20-%201980
Quote from: Mandryka on August 12, 2024, 05:56:04 AMNo. Here are some details
https://www.challengerecords.com/products/15209518455077/The%20Unreleased%20Recitals%20at%20The%20Concertgebouw%201975%20-%201976%20-%201978%20-%201979%20-%201980
It was a rhetorical question. Of course it's not part of a complete or meant to be complete cycle, and therefore its relative merits are irrelevant in the context of a thread devoted to using scientific rigor to determine the best available complete or meant to be complete cycle. This thread is not about finding the best recorded version of each sonata. That is an entirely different undertaking.
Quote from: Todd on August 12, 2024, 05:59:16 AMIt was a rhetorical question. Of course it's not part of a complete or meant to be complete cycle, and therefore its relative merits are irrelevant in the context of a thread devoted to using scientific rigor to determine the best available complete or meant to be complete cycle. This thread is not about finding the best recorded version of each sonata. That is an entirely different undertaking.
I understand, and what I'm really looking forward to is some analysis of whether there are cycles which you found particularly rewarding for early or middle or late sonatas.
By the way, revisiting Gilels DG one thing I didn't enjoy is the DG sound engineering.
Quote from: Mandryka on August 12, 2024, 05:49:33 AMI think Gilels' live Concertgebau recording of this one shows him in a better light. I find what he does really touching in the first movement, much more so than Sainte Annie - which is a bit too much like inflated and pompous bluster for me. I don't hear it as flowing like you do @Todd, but that may be because I'm drunk slightly. Will check Mejoueva later.
Agree about Fischer. It feels like she couldn't find the right path and chose to just bang on the keys as hard as she could. The sound quality in her recording of this sonata is also somewhat archaic.
Opus 26 seems to me a rather strange piece. Almost everyone's third movement comes off overly pathetic.
From the selected versions I've re-listened to, Gulda's was better.
Quote from: Mandryka on August 12, 2024, 05:49:33 AMbut that may be because I'm drunk slightly.
Wow, you had a good Monday lunch!
Quote from: prémont on August 11, 2024, 10:57:19 AMListening to music in chronological order isn't always necessary or even ideal. However, the seemingly random arrangement of sonatas in Annie's set might impair the overall experience. If this bothers me enough, I'll create a personal CDR copy with the sonatas arranged in my preferred sequence.
Looking more closely, I'd say the "seemingly random" arrangement may be not random after all, but structured on the basis of key relationships. E.g.:
CD1 - 12 in Ab, 6 in F, 31 in Ab, 13 in Eb
CD4 - 18 in Eb, 29 in Bb
CD6 - 23 in f, 17 in d, 15 in D
CD8 - 5 in c, 23 in C, 4 in Eb
Not perfect, but the best explanation I can provide.
Technically, op. 26 is of moderate difficulty, with the most challenging movements being the scherzo and the finale, and the easiest the funeral march. Rosen tells us this was the favorite Beethoven sonata of Chopin (who in general did not much care for Beethoven); did he perhaps take a hint from the funeral march for his own 2nd sonata?
Formally, an interesting feature is that this is the only one of the sonatas, and offhand the only large-scale Beethoven work I can think of, that lacks a movement in sonata-allegro form: variations, ABA scherzo, ABA march, rondo. (In both op. 27 sonatas, sonata-allegro is reserved for the finale - though the finale of 27/1 lacks an exposition repeat for the first time I know of in Beethoven, and the opening slow movement of the Moonlight can be described as sonata-form without repeat but with some unusual features. But I'm getting ahead of myself.)
Quote from: Todd on August 11, 2024, 04:39:04 AMFrench pianists are rare among the elitist of elite cycles
Do you have any explanation for this fact?
At some point, maybe, I'll compare and contrast Schnabel with Yves Nat and Claude Frank.
I've just put Claude Frank's op 109 on and I can say this confidently, it is thrilling music making, spontaneous sounding and full of personality! I'm not saying it's "elite", I'm just saying it's a good thing to hear.
Frank is another one who mixes up the sonatas - annoying!
I will temporarily lock the thread, but I appreciate Mandryka's on-topic post.
I have removed rude or dismissive posts made over the past few days. There is so much interesting, thoughtful discussion that I don't want to keep it locked.
But I, please, ask everyone to remember the golden rule.
Quote from: Florestan on August 12, 2024, 01:21:20 PMWhereas fixation stays the same.
Indeed. Your fixation on my listening and posting is perverse.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 12, 2024, 09:12:48 AMLooking more closely, I'd say the "seemingly random" arrangement may be not random after all, but structured on the basis of key relationships. E.g.:
CD1 - 12 in Ab, 6 in F, 31 in Ab, 13 in Eb
CD4 - 18 in Eb, 29 in Bb
CD6 - 23 in f, 17 in d, 15 in D
CD8 - 5 in c, 23 in C, 4 in Eb
Not perfect, but the best explanation I can provide.
Yes, I've had similar ideas. However, the sequence might ultimately be determined by the producer after Annie's passing.
Quote from: Mandryka on August 12, 2024, 01:38:40 PMI've just put Claude Frank's op 109 on and I can say this confidently, it is thrilling music making, spontaneous sounding and full of personality! I'm not saying it's "elite", I'm just saying it's a good thing to hear.
In my view, Frank's cycle stands out as one of the most consistently rewarding and comprehensive experiences.
Quote from: Todd on August 12, 2024, 02:13:29 PMIndeed. Your fixation on my listening and posting is perverse.
Touché!
But then again, if I put you on the ignore list, I'd miss not a few rational and reasonable posts.
Что делать?
Quote from: DavidW on August 12, 2024, 01:52:04 PMI have removed rude or dismissive posts made over the past few days. There is so much interesting, thoughtful discussion that I don't want to keep it locked.
I haven't seen the latest posts before they were deleted. Did I miss something?
Quote from: prémont on August 12, 2024, 02:27:26 PMI haven't seen the latest posts before they were deleted. Did I miss something?
Not at all, just my usual exchange with Todd. Expletives all mine. :laugh:
Quote from: prémont on August 12, 2024, 02:27:26 PMI haven't seen the latest posts before they were deleted. Did I miss something?
I haven't been keeping up, but I have faith that DavidW did it for a reason as in trying to keep the peace and to keep things on track.
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on August 12, 2024, 02:37:34 PMDavidW did it for a reason as in trying to keep the peace and to keep things on track.
Always the case.
Quote from: prémont on August 12, 2024, 02:23:59 PMIn my view, Frank's cycle stands out as one of the most consistently rewarding and comprehensive experiences.
Frank's cycle has proved to be a great find for me, an enormous pleasure. I started listening to it because someone proposed that French pianists aren't often at their best in Beethoven. That may still be right it fact, because it turns out that Frank is not pukka French, he was born in Nuremberg, a Jew, and lived and studied in Paris to escape Hitler.
Anyway, it's been a long time since I enjoyed early and middle sonatas, but I'm finding Frank irresistible.
It's sad that Todd is now limited to talking to himself on the new version of this thread. That negates the main point of this forum which is to interchange views. I presume we will continue discussion here and where appropriate comment on Todd's daily posts and views on the sonatas.
The rankings are nearly halfway, covering all the 13 early period sonatas up to op.28, although 49.1&2 will be added to scores so far for early sonatas.
The total ranking scores (with positions in brackets) so far are
1st 8 9 - 15 All early 15 Pianist
14 (1) 21 (2) 35 (1) Sohn
26 (3) 15 (1) 41 (2) Lucchesini
25 (2) 32 (4) 57 (3) Fischer
43 (5) 28 (3) 71 (4) Pienaar
41 (4) 45 (6) 86 (5) Mejoueva
59 (6=) 42 (5) 101 (6) Schnabel
59 (6=) 51 (8) 110 (7) Kempff (M)
81 (11) 47 (7) 128 (8) Sherman
71 (8) 61 (10) 132 (9) Kosuge
82 (12) 59 (9) 141 (10) Heidsieck
80 (10) 74 (11) 154 (11) Backhaus
73 (9) 86 (13) 159 (12) Kempff (S)
88 (13) 79 (12) 167 (13) Gulda
84+(14) 81+(14) 165+(14) Gilels
The notes by Todd are rather curious, if not frivolous. We read that Kempff's performance of Sonata No. 15 includes a stream of consciousness manner(?) and is all so zen(?). Really? It's doubtful that Todd understands what these things mean. Kempff's performance is indeed very, very good. But, it has nothing to do with Zen. With a similar level of appropriateness, the term Zen could be applied to any other performance of any other sonata.
AnotherSpin once again demonstrates that non-native English speakers face serious challenges on the internet.
I decided to give QuillBot a try to see how AI would rewrite 31/1. This is unedited output. Perhaps AnotherSpin will find this output more satisfactory seeing as how AnotherSpin has posted positively about AI before.
Andrea Cappelletti – Lucchesini is brisk right away, punching out quickly and swaying back and forth across the piano. A wonderful opener is created by the pianist's lyrical playing in melody-focused moments, together with excitement and pleasure. The warm, lyrical manner and the lovely, blurring trills blend beautifully in the Adagio grazioso, which is light and beautiful in just the right amount. The Rondo has a little amount of vigor. The sonata as a whole sounds like a lovely scherzo.
Annie Fischer – The reading isn't light at all, but it's also not heavy either thanks to the cutting sound, relatively fast overall tempo, and very brisk portions that give it a joyful feel. Here, the Adagio grazioso is perfect since it sounds crisp and clean yet a little more intense. Although the Rondo is full of vigor, it still feels a little too intense.
Arthur Schnabel – In the first movement, Schnabel goes all out in terms of pace, with a few clearly noticeable instances of imperfection. That is less important than the zeal and silliness. Among this group of pianists, only he had the late 19th-century sensibility in the lengthy, slow Adagio grazioso, which combines rapid trills and a playful sense with the slower, more romantic music. The Rondo is lively, brisk, and enjoyable.
Ben Pienaar, Daniel — Pienaar unleashes his interventionism here, tearing out the gate with such reckless abandon that Schnabel might grimace, if not nod in agreement. He stumbles through parts of the playing as well. The entire introduction Prestissimo Allegro vivace is so exaggerated that one had to turn it off or give in to the giddiness. The former is far more enjoyable. The Adagio grazioso's general time is typical, although it conceals a few significant deviations. Basically, Pienaar is never satisfied to just play it straight; instead, he must make adjustments everywhere. The rapid stuff is fairly fast, and the slow stuff is pretty damned slow. I can't think of a better way to sum up the Rondo than as a musical.
Emil Gilels – Often gentle playing, with extremely delicate articulation and excellent dynamic control, is supported by a rhythm akin to dancing. It sounds good when the dramatic gestures counterbalance the tenderness. The second movement has a somewhat whimsical mood throughout the most of the movement and is performed at a leisurely tempo with largely restrained dramatic contrasts. The Rondo lacks some vigor and drive, but it can't be blamed for being unclear.
A man named Eric Heidsieck The humorously quick playing that follows the slow-ish starting pace and exaggerated left-hand notes gives way to the returning music and the movement's main material, which is masterfully executed by Heisdieck's staccato, rhythmic sureness, and melodic swagger. The incredibly lengthy Adagio grazioso (13'57") begins with hazy trills and just kind of floats along. The Heidsieck performs the second half really slowly and softly. So deliciously melodic! In the Rondo, Heidsieck maintains a fairly easy speed, yet it just flows forward charmingly, amusingly, and almost silly. A hit record.
Friedrich Gulda (Amadeo): Gulda's perspective is essentially all about speed from beginning to end, with constant acoustic x-ray clarity. The playing has an almost comic quality to it, which is effective.
Bijin Irina Mejoueva – Mejoueva adopts Annie's strategy, but she does so with more adaptability, subtler dynamic gradations, and a lighthearted attitude to a serious goal. It's not a cheerful view, but it's also not depressing. In the Adagio grazioso, the piano's and the instrument's playing produce vivid and hazy trills. The movement is also enhanced by the large, beefy bass notes that come just before the coda, the gorgeous upper registers, and the occasionally off-kilter beat. In the Rondo, the playing adopts a quick, fluid, flowing, and light feel, continuing in this manner almost nonstop all the way to the finish. superior quality items.
Minsoo Sohn – The opening is marked by deft fingerwork and dramatic contrasts, and Sohn then adds pace and drive. Sohn attempts to add humor to his playing, yet he never wavers from his feeling of authority and gravity. Thankfully, it functions admirably—possibly the best recording of its kind in that regard. The Adagio grazioso contains the same serious/fun combination throughout, and the music in the second half is supported by charmingly cruel left hand playing. The Rondo grazioso isn't as jovial as some other renditions, but the forward momentum and excellent vocal clarity swiftly silence critics.
Sherman Russell – Nothing too unusual exists to begin the Allegro vivace. But as the piece progresses, the collection of unique touches—subtle or less noticeable accelerations and decelerations, excessively dramatic contrasts, off-beat rhythm, an absurdly erratic and slurred wall of noise in the middle, and so on—pushes the piece toward a blend of seriousness and comedy that few other pianists can equal. Although Sherman's rendition of the Adagio grazioso is not the most severe, Sherman does a great job with it. Music lurches around comically due to light, charming trills and an utterly offbeat and unstable accompaniment. The pianissimo finish receives lavish attention in the second section, which again combines a relentless forward drive and a wide dynamic. The transition between the playing and the preparation seems almost improvisatory. In the Rondo, instability is the norm. I wrote in my review of the cycle when I first listened to it that the joyful playing had almost an intoxicated vibe, and I was right—it's wonderful in every aspect. In this sonata, I adore strong intervention, and Sherman has that, oh yes, he does. He is among the greatest ever and the best of this bunch.
Wilhelm Backhaus (mono) – In the opening movement, Backhaus plays with a lightness and vigor, in the Adagio grazioso, he conveys a sense of true playfulness, and in the Rondo, he performs with energy and fun. Backhaus finds it all to be lighthearted and enjoyable.
In unison, Wilhelm Kempff keeps the opening Allegro vivace moving somewhat quickly, yet in the most difficult moments, the generally light movement takes on a somewhat somber air. The Adagio grazioso has flattened dynamics and a very light and lyrical touch, whilst the Rondo has a very breezy feel.
Wilhelm Kempff (stereo): The stereo recording has a little louder sound and better recorded dynamics than the mono recording, but it still sounds very similar.
Yosuge Yu – Kosuge's interpretation is somewhat simple, but she benefits from the recorded sound's excellent clarity and capacity to reveal minute dynamic variations. and to acknowledge the refined sforzandi. The languid and charming Adagio grazioso, which emphasizes the grazioso, sounds, dare I say it, sweet overall; the Allegro vivace has a touch of polite prankishness; and the Rondo has speed and highly polished heaviness, which evokes a sense of (maybe too?) exquisite fun.
Quote from: Todd on August 16, 2024, 03:59:19 AMAnotherSpin once again demonstrates that non-native English speakers face serious challenges on the internet.
Quote from: Mandryka on August 16, 2024, 05:11:09 AM
That song is about Warren Beatty. It's not, but it is.
The appropriateness of posting in a locked thread should be obvious to all but the self-unaware.
Quote from: AnotherSpin on August 15, 2024, 11:30:46 PMThe notes by Todd are rather curious, if not frivolous. We read that Kempff's performance of Sonata No. 15 includes a stream of consciousness manner(?) and is all so zen(?). Really? It's doubtful that Todd understands what these things mean. Kempff's performance is indeed very, very good. But, it has nothing to do with Zen. With a similar level of appropriateness, the term Zen could be applied to any other performance of any other sonata.
I will try to reply less sarcastically than he did. The frivolities are meant offer an analogy. You could translate the metaphorical descriptions to more concrete ones. Perhaps a "stream of consciousness performance" is one that sounds improvisatory and in-the-moment. Perhaps a "zen" performance does not mean the performer is a Buddhist, but rather that the performance exudes a deep calm and peacefulness.
Certainly it makes for more colorful reading than "this one is faster than that one." One gets the sense that Todd writes these for his own entertainment even more so than for ours.
I've listened to about a dozen Minsoo Sohn performances so far, inspired by this thread. There was a little bit of a learning curve. My first impression was of technical brilliance, rhythmic precision, a slight preference for staccato jabbing, but maybe a little too much relentlessness - listening to some of the earlier sonatas in particular left my ears a little bit tired. Sort of like a modern concert grand piano analogue to a very fast chamber orchestra reading of the Beethoven symphonies.
But then I listened to the Waldstein earlier this week and had my conversion moment. Obviously, I like the finale to have that soft "magic," but I like a slow middle movement and a kind of disorienting first movement. It should have that feeling of doing something completely new. Sohn checks all three boxes and then some. It clicked entirely with what I want of a Waldstein.
Todd's comment about Sohn being "museum-quality" at times rings true; sometimes you want something more spontaneous, more impassioned. But sometimes, museum perfection is just the thing.
Quote from: Brian on August 16, 2024, 05:42:23 AMBut then I listened to the Waldstein earlier this week and had my conversion moment. Obviously, I like the finale to have that soft "magic," but I like a slow middle movement and a kind of disorienting first movement. It should have that feeling of doing something completely new. Sohn checks all three boxes and then some. It clicked entirely with what I want of a Waldstein.
Agreed. It's very good.
Le temps ne fait rien à l'affaire...
-George Brassens.
Quote from: Brian on August 16, 2024, 05:24:41 AMI will try to reply less sarcastically than he did. The frivolities are meant offer an analogy. You could translate the metaphorical descriptions to more concrete ones. Perhaps a "stream of consciousness performance" is one that sounds improvisatory and in-the-moment. Perhaps a "zen" performance does not mean the performer is a Buddhist, but rather that the performance exudes a deep calm and peacefulness.
Certainly it makes for more colorful reading than "this one is faster than that one." One gets the sense that Todd writes these for his own entertainment even more so than for ours.
Understanding what Todd is trying to say in his flawless English is not difficult at all; it's just a set of words that doesn't make it clear why he arranges the selected recordings in this particular order rather than another. But the use of words like 'zen' is too funny to ignore without responding :)
Quote from: AnotherSpin on August 16, 2024, 06:36:50 AMUnderstanding what Todd is trying to say in his flawless English is not difficult at all; it's just a set of words that doesn't make it clear why he arranges the selected recordings in this particular order rather than another. But the use of words like 'zen' is too funny to ignore without responding :)
Yeah, I guess you have to use the rankings to decide how much he values zen-ness, etc. Certainly I have been making notes to listen to things that didn't rank #1. (And I know I don't like Pienaar.)
I was thinking of posting in the "New" thread. but. oh ....
@AnotherSpin and
@Todd, please stop the ad hominem attacks on each other. Please engage with the ideas without criticizing the other poster's mastery of the English language.
Quote from: Brian on August 16, 2024, 05:42:23 AMI've listened to about a dozen Minsoo Sohn performances so far, inspired by this thread. There was a little bit of a learning curve. My first impression was of technical brilliance, rhythmic precision, a slight preference for staccato jabbing, but maybe a little too much relentlessness - listening to some of the earlier sonatas in particular left my ears a little bit tired. Sort of like a modern concert grand piano analogue to a very fast chamber orchestra reading of the Beethoven symphonies.
But then I listened to the Waldstein earlier this week and had my conversion moment. Obviously, I like the finale to have that soft "magic," but I like a slow middle movement and a kind of disorienting first movement. It should have that feeling of doing something completely new. Sohn checks all three boxes and then some. It clicked entirely with what I want of a Waldstein.
Todd's comment about Sohn being "museum-quality" at times rings true; sometimes you want something more spontaneous, more impassioned. But sometimes, museum perfection is just the thing.
I just listened to Minsoo Sohn's Waldstein. It feels like we're talking about different recordings. Well, I checked again, Qobuz says it's correct, Minsoo Sohn. My impressions are still the same as before: technically everything is fine, but it's empty inside. Shallow, no depth. No zen, no stream of consciousness either.
Then, Sonata No. 22 started playing, and everything got really strange. I mean, strange can be good, but this is a different kind of strange.
Quote from: Brian on August 16, 2024, 06:42:55 AMYeah, I guess you have to use the rankings to decide how much he values zen-ness, etc. Certainly I have been making notes to listen to things that didn't rank #1. (And I know I don't like Pienaar.)
Agree regarding Pienaar. His Beethoven cycle is at best grotesque, but most of the time it's just a joke.
Quote from: AnotherSpin on August 16, 2024, 07:19:18 AMI just listened to Minsoo Sohn's Waldstein. It feels like we're talking about different recordings. Well, I checked again, Qobuz says it's correct, Minsoo Sohn. My impressions are still the same as before: technically everything is fine, but it's empty inside. Shallow, no depth.
We used to have fairly frequent Blind Listening Games on the board where we'd judge recordings without knowing whose they were. Sacred names would fall, obscure artists would rise to the top. (Except in Bruckner, where everybody could recognize Klemperer and Celi.)
From those games, I learned that different people can listen to the same recording and hear wildly different things. Often several of us would have exact opposite ballots. There was a fellow named Neal who would call certain piano recordings some strange word - I think "plinky" - as an insult, and I could never tell what "plinky" meant. But he always deducted points when the piano was plinky.
Quote from: Brian on August 16, 2024, 07:58:30 AMWe used to have fairly frequent Blind Listening Games on the board where we'd judge recordings without knowing whose they were. Sacred names would fall, obscure artists would rise to the top. (Except in Bruckner, where everybody could recognize Klemperer and Celi.)
From those games, I learned that different people can listen to the same recording and hear wildly different things. Often several of us would have exact opposite ballots. There was a fellow named Neal who would call certain piano recordings some strange word - I think "plinky" - as an insult, and I could never tell what "plinky" meant. But he always deducted points when the piano was plinky.
I always find it more satisfying when someone likes something that doesn't impress me. It gives me the chance to discover something new later on. But if I like something that no one else does, there's nowhere else to go... :o
Does it make sense?
"plinky in British English:
(ˈplɪŋkɪ ) adjectiveWord forms: plinkier, plinkiest. (of a sound) short, sharp, and metallic."
Maybe he did mean a sharp metallic recorded sound...it has been so long I don't remember examples. We need to do some more Blind Listening Games!
Quote from: Brian on August 16, 2024, 07:58:30 AMdifferent people can listen to the same recording and hear wildly different things.
QFT
Quote from: Brian on August 16, 2024, 07:58:30 AMWe used to have fairly frequent Blind Listening Games on the board where we'd judge recordings without knowing whose they were. Sacred names would fall, obscure artists would rise to the top. (Except in Bruckner, where everybody could recognize Klemperer and Celi.)
From those games, I learned that different people can listen to the same recording and hear wildly different things. Often several of us would have exact opposite ballots. There was a fellow named Neal who would call certain piano recordings some strange word - I think "plinky" - as an insult, and I could never tell what "plinky" meant. But he always deducted points when the piano was plinky.
Not plinky, plonky. Not to be confused with plonker, plinky-plonk or plonk.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/plonky#:~:text=plonky%20(comparative%20plonkier%2C%20superlative%20plonkiest,Having%20an%20unappealing%20thudding%20sound.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/plonker#:~:text=slang)%20A%20penis.-,(British%2C%20Ireland%2C%20Australia%2C%20New%20Zealand%2C%20slang%2C,girlfriend%20and%20his%20male%20friends.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/plinky-plonky
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/plonk
That AI overview of performers in Op.31/1 posted above is absolutely hilarious. I can honestly say I don't think I've ever had as much fun reading about LVB. Peppered with memorably comic lines, but this little comment about Minsoo Sohn really tickled.
Quote from: Todd on August 16, 2024, 04:02:12 AM.. and the music in the second half is supported by charmingly cruel left hand playing.
Prompted by the thread I've been working through the sonatas chronologically in the Lucchesini recordings. Am up to the Op. 14's and am pretty flabbergasted by the colour and life he brings to them. I had heard some of the set before, but this more focussed listen is bringing a whole new level of joy and clarity to the experience.
I will have to listen to Minsoo's Waldstein and op. 54 forthwith. But just as AnotherSpin has issues with Todd's use of "zen" and "stream-of-consciousness," I have no idea what "shallow" or "empty inside" or"lack of depth" mean either. Or for that matter "strange," especially "a different kind of strange."
I like to think in terms of musical meanings and musical vocabulary. For instance, though I generally liked Minsoo's 2/1, I did not like that he did not bring out the low octave G that adds richness to the texture of the bass line in the codetta to the exposition. Or that he did not play the 2 eighth-note motif in the menuetto evenly, shortening the first note and making it almost like a Scotch snap.
Op. 54 is decidedly "strange," but it is that way regardless of performance, being a 2-movement work where the first movement is a minuet with a relentlessly pounding ff trio, and the second a perpetuum-mobile sonata form where there is very little melodic interest and where contrast and drama are minimized - rather different from Beethoven's usual treatment of sonata form.
And please, let's pronounce Waldstein correctly. It's not WALD-steen, but VAHLD-shtine. Take that, David Hurwitz.
I don't know what "charmingly cruel left hand playing" means either. If you want something cruel for the left hand in Beethoven, turn to the first movement of op. 90, where at times the player's mano sinistra is contorted into very difficult stretches similar to what one often encounters in Chopin (e.g., the D minor prelude).
Quote from: Todd on August 16, 2024, 05:22:33 PMCommon or colloquial usage differs from strict usage from time to time.
Of course. My point was it was Spin who had issues, not me. Still don't know what "charmingly cruel left hand playing" means.
Quote from: Iota on August 16, 2024, 09:10:34 AMThat AI overview of performers in Op.31/1 posted above is absolutely hilarious. I can honestly say I don't think I've ever had as much fun reading about LVB. Peppered with memorably comic lines, but this little comment about Minsoo Sohn really tickled.
Prompted by the thread I've been working through the sonatas chronologically in the Lucchesini recordings. Am up to the Op. 14's and am pretty flabbergasted by the colour and life he brings to them. I had heard some of the set before, but this more focussed listen is bringing a whole new level of joy and clarity to the experience.
I have been unable to locate CDs for Lucchesini's complete cycle. I only have a single of the Moonlight and Hammerklavier. But fortunately all his 32 can be listened to and downloaded here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blpSgjODwkQ&list=OLAK5uy_k4U2dQ10OsBJH2MabEKtqzBxV3V-D2t68
And so I am editing the WAVs to eliminate the applause, which I dislike, and will also burn my own set of CDs just as I did for Minsoo Sohn. So far I have also added the repeat to the finale of 10/2, because I wanted to.
I don't know if Russell Sherman's set is still around. But:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1ZwYhhpP19vh2yRy_mLMCA
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 16, 2024, 06:57:12 PMOf course. My point was it was Spin who had issues, not me. Still don't know what "charmingly cruel left hand playing" means.
Me neither. AI "wrote" that.
Quote from: AnotherSpin on August 16, 2024, 07:23:42 AMAgree regarding Pienaar. His Beethoven cycle is at best grotesque, but most of the time it's just a joke.
It just arrived in the mail today. Can't wait.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 16, 2024, 07:16:53 PMIt just arrived in the mail today. Can't wait.
I hope you will be more, and better impressed than I was.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 16, 2024, 07:16:53 PMIt just arrived in the mail today. Can't wait.
His Schubert has some extraordinary things in it. He's a case of a real musician who finds his own voice. I hardly know his Beethoven in fact.
Quote from: Mandryka on August 16, 2024, 08:54:14 PMHis Schubert has some extraordinary things in it. He's a case of a real musician who finds his own voice. I hardly know his Beethoven in fact.
Some of Pienaar's recordings are very good, his Byrd's album was remarkable. As for his Beethoven cycle, the sonatas I've listened to (not all of them) mostly leave me puzzled. It seems that his desire to find his own voice leads to results that are too unexpected, if not outright controversial.
It seems that no one has written about their impressions of Mejoueva 's cycle yet? It would be interesting to compare. I haven't formed my own opinion yet. On the plus side, it's a recording of wonderful SQ. It feels very fresh, and it's easy and engaging to listen to. On the downside, there's a certain lightness to the interpretation, perhaps even superficiality. It flits about like a butterfly, but this is Beethoven, baby — where are the elephants and rhinoceroses?
Quote from: AnotherSpin on August 16, 2024, 07:23:42 AMAgree regarding Pienaar. His Beethoven cycle is at best grotesque, but most of the time it's just a joke.
Define "grotesque" and "joke."
And I also listened to Minsoo Sohn's Waldstein. There were some passages I didn't like, but I could not find anything shallow, lacking in depth, empty inside, or the like. Can you enlighten me?
I've cleaned up the thread a bit. It is devolving into petty sniping. Please try to agree or disagree with someone's opinion and explain why instead of accusing them of using empty words or not understanding what they are writing. The way you are all going is unproductive and will likely lead to another heated argument and a locked thread.
We're discussing recordings of Beethoven's piano sonatas, not Peace in the Middle East. Being civil is not that hard. Please try.
Quote from: DavidW on August 17, 2024, 04:55:45 AMThe way you are all going is unproductive and will likely lead to another heated argument and a locked thread.
Locked, you say?
Quote from: Todd on August 17, 2024, 04:59:22 AMLocked, you say?
Ha! Yeah, but they won't be angry with you this time!
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 17, 2024, 04:50:47 AMDefine "grotesque" and "joke."
And I also listened to Minsoo Sohn's Waldstein. There were some passages I didn't like, but I could not find anything shallow, lacking in depth, empty inside, or the like. Can you enlighten me?
Perfectly fine to me. Enjoy!
Quote from: AnotherSpin on August 17, 2024, 05:17:13 AMPerfectly fine to me. Enjoy!
Thank you for the clarification!
Lest anyone thinks that it's all in the ears of the hearer, something
@Brian came close to suggesting yesterday, that concepts like shallow etc are entirely subjective, contrast for shallowness Claudio Columbo
and Minsoo Sohn
Quote from: Mandryka on August 17, 2024, 05:39:38 AMLest anyone thinks that it's all in the ears of the hearer, something @Brian came close to suggesting yesterday, that concepts like shallow etc are entirely subjective, contrast for shallowness Claudio Columbo
and Minsoo Sohn
So before I listen, is one supposed to be shallow and the other not? 'Cause I can't tell. I want to know who most creates a coherent musical structure using the notes Beethoven has provided. Sort of reminds me of a spot in my friend Doug DeVita's play Fable, where Ethel Merman is being harangued by a host of BS stuff, and she replies, "I don't care about any of that sh**, I just want to know: do I come in on the upbeat, or the downbeat?"
And who is Claudio Columbo?
Quote from: Brian on August 16, 2024, 05:42:23 AMI've listened to about a dozen Minsoo Sohn performances so far, inspired by this thread. There was a little bit of a learning curve. My first impression was of technical brilliance, rhythmic precision, a slight preference for staccato jabbing, but maybe a little too much relentlessness - listening to some of the earlier sonatas in particular left my ears a little bit tired. Sort of like a modern concert grand piano analogue to a very fast chamber orchestra reading of the Beethoven symphonies.
But then I listened to the Waldstein earlier this week and had my conversion moment. Obviously, I like the finale to have that soft "magic," but I like a slow middle movement and a kind of disorienting first movement. It should have that feeling of doing something completely new. Sohn checks all three boxes and then some. It clicked entirely with what I want of a Waldstein.
Todd's comment about Sohn being "museum-quality" at times rings true; sometimes you want something more spontaneous, more impassioned. But sometimes, museum perfection is just the thing.
Museum quality playing sounds like a pejorative, it's not something I have ever sought in classical music or any music for that matter. In audiophile muzak like Steely Dan Aja they had a mini documentary on VH1 (after Carson Daily's TRL, sup millennials) they were talking about how they would adjust the timing of instruments coming in down to microseconds, doing take after take to get it perfect. They had one of the greatest tenor saxophonists play on some album and it sounds like a dime a dozen rent a sax player with how much they directed him. That documentary made sense why I didn't like this music, it's music made for the operating room. I suppose museum quality rock is another way to put it. About the antithesis of something like Dylan, Faith No More, pre-war delta blues, etc.
I saw Hamelin recently, the Ives Concord Sonata was a near 1:1: replication of his Hyperion recording (minus the flute), that was not a bad thing as that recording is incredible. The other piece I was really looking forward to is one of my favorite piano pieces, Gaspard de la nuit, it was so flawless, dynamics so perfectly measured and not exagerated. But there was something about it... the performance was just merely excellent, it felt way short of someone like Sergei Babayan or Joseph Moog.
I've only heard Sohn's Beethoven in passing, streaming and not dedicated eyes closed listening so I can't say if museum quality is right or not. I wasn't particularly engaged by it but that could be because I was also doing stuff like surfing the web or playing with the kids. I blind bought his Goldberg Variations as I'm seeing him play it this year.
I am curious to hear Sohn's Transcendental Etudes, but I can't find a way to hear it (@mandryka?). I wonder if it will be like Kirill Gerstein which does sound like "museum quality."
On the topic of museums I did get to finally cross off Monet's Haystacks from bucket list along with some Constables. Thank you museums and all the private collectors that display their art in museums.
Quote from: Atriod on August 17, 2024, 05:50:40 AMMuseum quality playing sounds like a pejorative
It is not.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 17, 2024, 05:50:21 AMSo before I listen, is one supposed to be shallow and the other not? 'Cause I can't tell. I want to know who most creates a coherent musical structure using the notes Beethoven has provided. Sort of reminds me of a spot in my friend Doug DeVita's play Fable, where Ethel Merman is being harangued by a host of BS stuff, and she replies, "I don't care about any of that sh**, I just want to know: do I come in on the upbeat, or the downbeat?"
And who is Claudio Columbo?
Do you hear the difference between Sohn and Columbo? If so, what is it? Hint: who has more Zen?
Quote from: AnotherSpin on August 17, 2024, 05:59:52 AMDo you hear the difference between Sohn and Columbo? If so, what is it? Hint: who has more Zen?
Now I know a trigger word.
Quote from: Atriod on August 17, 2024, 05:50:40 AMthe performance was just merely excellent . . .
I'll settle for excellent. Reminds me an anecdote about Stravinsky, when someone telegraphed him to say, "Your piece was great success! will be even greater success if you let X touch up the orchestration!" To which Stravinsky replied, "Satisfied with great success."
As for MS's TE, I heard them live but he has not recorded them. Perhaps he felt they were not sufficiently museum quality. Can we go on to op. 31/3?
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 17, 2024, 06:12:56 AMI'll settle for excellent. Reminds me an anecdote about Stravinsky, when someone telegraphed him to say, "Your piece was great success! will be even greater success if you let X touch up the orchestration!" To which Stravinsky replied, "Satisfied with great success."
As for MS's TE, I heard them live but he has not recorded them. Perhaps he felt they were not sufficiently museum quality. Can we go on to op. 31/3?
Maybe excellent was not the right word. Bland? Though I'm not even sure if that is correct.
This is from Jed Distler's review of Yeol Eum Son playing Mozart's Piano Sonatas which I found one of the most perfect descriptions of the ones I heard:
QuoteOn the other hand, some of the sonata finales come off sounding square, underplayed, and just plain bland. Compare her relatively prissy and clipped C major K. 330 Allegretto and B-flat major K. 333 Allegretto grazioso readings to the variety of inflection of Maria João Pires' DG recordings or the inventive vitality of our reference Roberto Prosseda and Robert Levin traversals. Indeed, Son's earlier K. 330 Allegretto on the Onyx label boasted more life and spontaneity
What he says about life and spontaneity are more lucid terms that are more easily understood, and some of what I heard in Hamelin's Gaspard contrasted against the likes of Babayan or Moog. Perhap's Son's Mozart cycle is museum quality, I have not heard Pires' DG recordings that Distler mentions but her Denon/Brilliant Classics is one of my two desert island cycles.
I see it's not the TE he recorded but a Liszt disc I would still like to hear.
Quote from: Atriod on August 17, 2024, 06:21:08 AMWhat he says about life and spontaneity are more lucid terms that are more easily understood
What is the objective definition of the word "life" as it pertains to recorded performances? Same question for the word "spontaneity". In order for words to be lucid and easily understood, they must have objective definitions. To give a concrete example using something that physically exists, if I use the word "milk", many and perhaps most people will assume I mean cow's milk, but without a clear, objective definition, even that can cause confusion.
"Variety of inflection" is a good and useful term, referring to the minute variations a gifted performer may bring to accent, dynamics, rhythm, tempo, touch, and the like. These things, I think, can be discussed and are musically meaningful. The difference, say, between hearing a performance that could have been generated through a computer program and one created by an inventive artist. I don't however hear "museum quality" as necessarily a pejorative, unless it is taken as somehow the equivalent of computer-generated, while in my experience museums can be pretty lively places.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 17, 2024, 06:32:57 AMI don't however hear "museum quality" as necessarily a pejorative, unless it is taken as somehow the equivalent of computer-generated, while in my experience museums can be pretty lively places.
Yep. Just a couple weeks ago I was at the Antique Implement Society and saw an ancient Fairbanks-Morse engine at work. Very lively. Beyond that, fine art museums very often house masterpieces of art, whether paintings or sculptures or other media. I would never have thought that "museum quality" would be construed negatively, but different strokes, and all that.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 17, 2024, 05:50:21 AMSo before I listen, is one supposed to be shallow and the other not? 'Cause I can't tell. I want to know who most creates a coherent musical structure using the notes Beethoven has provided. Sort of reminds me of a spot in my friend Doug DeVita's play Fable, where Ethel Merman is being harangued by a host of BS stuff, and she replies, "I don't care about any of that sh**, I just want to know: do I come in on the upbeat, or the downbeat?"
And who is Claudio Columbo?
What's a coherent musical structure?
Quote from: Brian on August 16, 2024, 05:24:41 AMI will try to reply less sarcastically than he did. The frivolities are meant offer an analogy. You could translate the metaphorical descriptions to more concrete ones. Perhaps a "stream of consciousness performance" is one that sounds improvisatory and in-the-moment. Perhaps a "zen" performance does not mean the performer is a Buddhist, but rather that the performance exudes a deep calm and peacefulness.
Certainly it makes for more colorful reading than "this one is faster than that one." One gets the sense that Todd writes these for his own entertainment even more so than for ours.
I will never understand when I visit my parents I sometimes see my dad watching a shopping channel show selling stuff from coins to vacuum cleaners, he has never given me an answer why other than smiling and laughing. I had a sensible chuckle when Todd was writing about some piano concerto comparison and gave different descriptions of an identical performance from a pianist he thought recorded it twice until it was pointed out by another GMG'er they are the identical performance on the different reissues Todd was listening to. So I certainly hope it's for Todd's entertainment.
Quote from: Todd on August 17, 2024, 06:30:12 AMWhat is the objective definition of the word "life" as it pertains to recorded performances? Same question for the word "spontaneity". In order for words to be lucid and easily understood, they must have objective definitions. To give a concrete example using something that physically exists, if I use the word "milk", many and perhaps most people will assume I mean cow's milk, but without a clear, objective definition, even that can cause confusion.
Jed Distler was scientifically accurate in his use of words, just like yourself.
Quote from: Mandryka on August 17, 2024, 05:39:38 AMLest anyone thinks that it's all in the ears of the hearer, something @Brian came close to suggesting yesterday, that concepts like shallow etc are entirely subjective
[..]
Well, of course, all is in the ears of the hearer; everything is more than subjective, that's beyond doubt. It's foolish to rely on the applicability of any objective, let alone 'scientific,' criteria. That's why every ranking here is nothing more than futile and groundless.
Quote from: Atriod on August 17, 2024, 06:44:26 AMJed Distler was scientifically accurate in his use of words, just like yourself.
IOW, you can't answer the question. I suspected as much.
I first came across the idea of "museum quality" applied to performances in this 10 year old post by Todd - it's an interesting post.
Quote from: Todd on October 22, 2015, 11:33:35 AM(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61M%2BLEJkKkL._SX425_.jpg)
After having heard a fair number of recordings by Steven Osborne, I have come to see his style as what I'll call museum quality piano playing. He never puts a wrong foot forward. Everything is meticulously played. His recordings have a sheen of perfection about them, and they practically yell, or at least politely proclaim, this is classical music. Yet something is held back. There's a reserve, a detachment to his playing. His style, for me, pays huge dividends in Ravel, and works quite well in Messiaen, too, but in Debussy, Mussorgsky, Prokofiev, Rachmaninoff, and Beethoven, there's a sense of things being a bit too smoothed over and constrained. The limitations are only evident if I opt to compare him to other pianists, and even then it is only the interpretation that I may have concerns about – if ''concerns'' they be.
I didn't come to his Schubert with trepidation. I came to it with eagerness. My eagerness was rewarded. For the most part. The disc opens with D935, and all four impromptus sound unfailingly beautiful, though not lush and warm in the manner of Lifits, but rather polished, bright, and colorful. And the melodies are the thing here. Not to take anything away from Osborne's rock-solid left hand playing in terms of steadiness or clarity, but time and again on this disc, the right hand playing mesmerized me. His gentle dynamic gradations at the quieter end of the spectrum are glorious, and when the music should sing, it does. The great A flat major Impromptu, surely one of Schubert's greatest pieces, may (?) lack the intensity or deepest depths of some other versions, but it is so steady, so precise, and so controlled as to demand absolute focus from the listener. The melodies in the F minor Impromptu offer aural bliss. D946 starts off with a somewhat vigorously paced Allegro assai, which nonetheless remains lovely throughout. The Allegretto is lovelier yet, if perhaps lacking the otherworldliness of Kars or experiential depth of Paik. The Allegro is lyrical and the coda packs something of a punch. It is not dark, heavy, brooding ''late'' Schubert, but it is effective on its own terms. The disc ends with D576, Variations on a theme by Anselm Huttenbrenner, a piece I'm not even sure I've heard before (I'd have to check my collection). It is a most enjoyable piece, if not a grand set of variations.
Listening, I sensed that museum quality feel to the playing throughout. It lacks that something special that, just sticking to this thread, Fray or Lifits brings. But that is observation more than criticism. This is an extremely fine disc, and one of Osborne's better outings. I certainly would not object if he recorded more Schubert. And I'd really like to hear him in person.
SOTA sound.
Quote from: Todd on August 17, 2024, 06:47:29 AMIOW, you can't answer the question. I suspected as much.
Like the times you've been asked about zen or some other terms that AnotherSpin brought up? Other than replying that he is triggered?
Let's not have double standards. If GMG'ers can have free reign on words, it's not restricted to yourself.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 17, 2024, 05:50:21 AMAnd who is Claudio Columbo?
A man who programs a midi keyboard.
Seriously. Some years ago I tried to get him kicked off various streaming platforms because he isn't actually a pianist, but has somehow accumulated an enormous "repertoire" of albums.
Quote from: Atriod on August 17, 2024, 06:51:37 AMLike the times you've been asked about zen or some other terms that AnotherSpin brought up? Other than replying that he is triggered?
Let's not have double standards. If GMG'ers can have free reign on words, it's not restricted to yourself.
Deflection. It's all good.
Quote from: Todd on August 17, 2024, 06:53:36 AMDeflection. It's all good.
It's objective fact I learn from the best.
Quote from: Mandryka on August 17, 2024, 06:48:57 AMI first came across the idea of "museum quality" applied to performances in this 10 year old post by Todd - it's an interesting post.
Osborne's style is exactly what I have in mind every time I use the phrase "museum quality" as it pertains to piano playing. Do note that museums very often contain works of widely disparate quality. Sometimes the works are bland, sometimes the works are superb, sometimes the works are transcendental. People can use any definitions they choose for any of those words, as is the GMG custom.
Quote from: Atriod on August 17, 2024, 06:55:27 AMIt's objective fact I learn from the best.
I'm sure you thought this was potent or whatnot.
Quote from: Todd on August 17, 2024, 06:57:05 AMI'm sure you thought this was potent or whatnot.
Scientifically more zen than potent or whatnot.
Quote from: Atriod on August 17, 2024, 07:03:10 AMScientifically more zen than potent or whatnot.
Meh.
Quote from: Atriod on August 17, 2024, 06:44:26 AMI had a sensible chuckle when Todd was writing about some piano concerto comparison and gave different descriptions of an identical performance from a pianist he thought recorded it twice until it was pointed out by another GMG'er they are the identical performance on the different reissues Todd was listening to.
I don't recall this. Can you please provide me the link?
Also, it's good to know that you pay such close attention to what I write.
Quote from: Mandryka on August 17, 2024, 06:41:52 AMWhat's a coherent musical structure?
Oh, I don't know. Perhaps something to do with zen, or museum quality?
Quote from: Madiel on August 17, 2024, 06:52:50 AMA man who programs a midi keyboard.
Seriously. Some years ago I tried to get him kicked off various streaming platforms because he isn't actually a pianist, but has somehow accumulated an enormous "repertoire" of albums.
I can believe that. The Waldstein I heard was very clean, metronomic, but not exhibiting much in the way of tempo fluctuation or phrasing. I've generated computer files of that sort myself. Soon on the other hand shows a wide range of tempo fluctuation which adds to the interest and liveliness of his interpretation.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 17, 2024, 07:12:24 AMOh, I don't know. Perhaps something to do with zen, or museum quality?
Zenness is a much more impactful and objective word when discussing classical music performance style.
Quote from: Madiel on August 17, 2024, 06:52:50 AMSeriously. Some years ago I tried to get him kicked off various streaming platforms because he isn't actually a pianist, but has somehow accumulated an enormous "repertoire" of albums.
If it makes you feel better, Spotify has been dumping AI-generated music on their platform, which is even worse!
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 17, 2024, 07:19:08 AMI can believe that. The Waldstein I heard was very clean, metronomic, but not exhibiting much in the way of tempo fluctuation or phrasing. I've generated computer files of that sort myself. Soon on the other hand shows a wide range of tempo fluctuation which adds to the interest and liveliness of his interpretation.
It's the choice of those embellishments which people are gesturing towards when they talk about depth/superficiality. On the one hand, the embellishments can draw the listener's attention to aspects of the music -- inner voices or features of the instrument like partials, or ideas which recur in some way as the music progresses through time. Deeper here means revealing the hidden. But there's more than that. Insofar as music can be aesthetically and emotionally engaging, the embellishments have a role in that -- I'm thinking particularly here of unexpected affecting timbres and the way tempo rubato can make the musician sound as though he's confiding spontaneously. Deeper here is connected to evoking an emotional response -- the more ineffable or multivalent that response, the more the depth.
Quote from: DavidW on August 17, 2024, 07:58:46 AMIf it makes you feel better, Spotify has been dumping AI-generated music on their platform, which is even worse!
Not always:
Quote from: DavidW on August 17, 2024, 04:55:45 AMI've cleaned up the thread a bit. It is devolving into petty sniping. Please try to agree or disagree with someone's opinion and explain why instead of accusing them of using empty words or not understanding what they are writing. The way you are all going is unproductive and will likely lead to another heated argument and a locked thread.
I appreciate your efforts, David. It clearly isn't working. As much as I love Beethoven sonatas, I have unsubscribed from this thread and won't be returning.
Listening to Stephen Osborne play op 111. It is museum quality, and it is top tier. The museum quality is not a drawback.
There are three recordings of op 110 by Irena Mejoueva - studio, Tokyo and Kyoto. All interesting - I find myself drawn to Tokyo, but which seems to have a delicacy, finesse, which I appreciate.
I have discovered Igor Levit's cycle, really like his Moonlight. His cycle is quite enjoyable, very active with thought and detail. Same with the Sohn cycle. What riches.
Quote from: Mandryka on August 23, 2024, 01:33:44 PMListening to Stephen Osborne play op 111. It is museum quality, and it is top tier. The museum quality is not a drawback.
I think his op 106 is pretty special too.
While re-listening to a bunch of sonatas inspired by the thread and Todd's other one I wondered about favorites in some sonatas that are not frequently recorded outside of complete cycles:
op.2,2
op.7
op.14,1
op.14,2
op.22
op.27,1
op.49,1+2
op.54
op.78
op.79
I am looking at Todd's ratings now that almost all 32 have been evaluated, and the results are kind of interesting. Minsoo Sohn and Andrea Lucchesini occupy many of the top spots throughout, with Annie Fischer close behind. Schnabel, Mejoueva, and Kosuge are generally in the middle of the pack, with Gulda, Kempff stereo, and above all Gilels at the bottom. (Though Gilels gets a high mark for his Waldstein, and Schnabel for 109.) The others are more or less evenly spread out, though Kempff mono seems preferable to Kempff stereo.)
Having suspended my own comments on the sonatas after the Great Thread Split of two weeks ago, I am inclined to resume them for the benefit of the 1-2 people (including myself) who might be remotely interested. But I think I'll do the sonatas at random, or start from 111 and work backwards.
Quote from: Jo498 on August 29, 2024, 07:10:06 AMWhile re-listening to a bunch of sonatas inspired by the thread and Todd's other one I wondered about favorites in some sonatas that are not frequently recorded outside of complete cycles:
op.2,2
op.7
op.14,1
op.14,2
op.22
op.27,1
op.49,1+2
op.54
op.78
op.79
Sviatoslav Richter played op 14/1 in an all Beethoven concert in Hungary somewhere between 1976 and 1985. For me this is full of the tender humane melancholy which I find so attractive in his later, post heart trouble, performances. It's here
I'm quite keen to hear this at some point - it has a late performance of op 14/2
(https://www.pianistdiscography.com/Images/Sviatoslav_Richter/Live_Classics/Richter-LCL491.jpg)
https://open.spotify.com/album/42NBn3DFwiZVwCWPIARUqM
It would take no little work to come up with lengthy or even moderate lists for each. But for a couple:
Quote from: Jo498 on August 29, 2024, 07:10:06 AMop.22
I have yet to hear anything less than very good versions from French pianists, and typically they rate among the best. Pommier, FFG, Nat, Levinas, Bavouzet, Pludermacher, and of course Heidsieck: it matters not, they all sound very fine.
Quote from: Jo498 on August 29, 2024, 07:10:06 AMop.54
One version that stays in memory, no matter which other versions I may listen to, is Kun Woo Paik. Maybe he's the best, maybe not, but he's distinctive.
I've now put Sohn's cycle on my list to stream.
Beethoven must have considered op.14/1 an important piece, despite its relative brevity & mostly humorous character as he arranged it for string quartet and apparently was proud of this version, too.
I like the Richter linked above in the first & last movement (although this seems more presto than comodo) but the 2nd seems way too slow and drags; it's a nice contrast and Richter can almost pull it off, but it's more an intermezzo that should not be turned into a slow movement.
I had listened to both op.14 with Lucchesini a couple of days ago; he's pretty good as generally the more lyrical sonatas seem a strength in that cycle but the sound is variable. I have to crank it upt and find it often still a bit distant and I liked #2 better, partly because of the sound. I recall Richter's 14/2 that I have as unlikely filler for the Liszt concerti as too intense for my taste. I prefer a rather slow first movement in 14/2. (The problem with Gilels is that he is good in the first movement but too slow and humourless in the following ones, no 14/1 from him, course)
Quote from: Todd on August 29, 2024, 08:45:02 AMop.22
I have yet to hear anything less than very good versions from French pianists, and typically they rate among the best. Pommier, FFG, Nat, Levinas, Bavouzet, Pludermacher, and of course Heidsieck: it matters not, they all sound very fine.
This was one of my least favorite sonatas but I like it more than I used to. I listened to Lucchesini a few days ago and this is very good.
I apparently never warmed to Heidsieck in general. His set was a major reason why I got the cheap Beethoven cube (that also hay the symphonies with Cluytens etc) when it was on offer but the only thing I remember about Heidsieck is the absurdly slow tempo for the scherzo of op.28 although I must have gone through most of the sonatas at least twice over the years, with comparions to others.
Quoteop.54
One version that stays in memory, no matter which other versions I may listen to, is Kun Woo Paik. Maybe he's the best, maybe not, but he's distinctive.
Also one of my least favorite sonatas and the Beethoven piece I find most puzzling.The only section I love is the last ~half minute of the first movement. Kun Woo Paik might be as good as anyone but the 2nd movement is too fast for me although it's often played that way. So fast I get dizzy and it's allegretto, not presto.
Quote from: Jo498 on August 30, 2024, 05:02:06 AMAlso one of my least favorite sonatas and the Beethoven piece I find most puzzling.The only section I love is the last ~half minute of the first movement. Kun Woo Paik might be as good as anyone but the 2nd movement is too fast for me although it's often played that way. So fast I get dizzy and it's allegretto, not presto.
Charles Rosen, in his book-length study of the sonatas (essential reading, IMO, though very technical) argues that the finale of 54 is generally played too fast - along with other perpetuum mobiles like the finales of 31/2 and 57. I suppose the pianists fear that if they play such pieces at the indicated tempos, the know-it-alls will assume they lack the necessary technique to play them faster. But on the CD accompanying his book, Rosen has recorded the whole of 54 at a distinctly slower and even pokey-sounding tempo for the finale. It doesn't help me like this puzzling little piece any better, but there you are.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 30, 2024, 07:22:09 AMI suppose the pianists fear that if they play such pieces at the indicated tempos, the know-it-alls will assume they lack the necessary technique to play them faster.
Given Paik's virtuosic recordings on the one hand, and his increasing use of slower tempi since he signed to DG on the other, in this case, I suspect he had interpretive reasons for playing the way he did. I'd like to hear how Pogorelich (even now) or Barto might approach the work, and how they might turn it into a sonic freakshow.
I like Lucchesini a bit better as he is not quite as fast as Paik in the 2nd mvmt. There might be some connection to a piece from a Handel suite, at least I read this somewhere but I am not sure what's the source. In any case, a few passages can sound a bit like the Schumann Toccata but with all respect to Beethoven, that Toccata does the pseudo-baroque in a much more exciting way.
FWIW I don't mind fast and furious in the op.57 and 31/2 finales although they also have "ma non troppo" and "allegretto", not "con brio" or "presto".
Quote from: Hobby on August 29, 2024, 04:33:56 AMI think his op 106 is pretty special too.
It is more a symphony than a sonata actually. Like Nietzsche wrote. Someone should write it for an orchestra.
'173.
Corriger La Fortune.—There are unfortunate accidents in the lives of great artists, which compel the painter, for instance, to sketch out his most important picture only as a passing thought, or such as obliged Beethoven to leave behind him only the insufficient pianoforte score of many great sonatas (as in the great B flat). In these cases the artist of a later day must endeavour to fill out the life of the great man,—[Pg 176]of all orchestral effects, would call into life that symphony which has fallen into the piano-trance.' (Human, all too Human)
Quote from: Jo498 on August 30, 2024, 01:10:07 PMFWIW I don't mind fast and furious in the op.57 and 31/2 finales although they also have "ma non troppo" and "allegretto", not "con brio" or "presto".
Yeah, but with 57 at least you need enough room to contrast with the Presto coda.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 30, 2024, 03:43:04 PMYeah, but with 57 at least you need enough room to contrast with the Presto coda.
Yes, but op.54 also has a faster coda and I think the contrasts are usually better brought out in op.57 by most pianists but as I admitted I don't like op.54 very much and don't listen to it frequently.
Quote from: Henk on August 30, 2024, 01:34:44 PMIt is more a symphony than a sonata actually. Like Nietzsche wrote. Someone should write it for an orchestra.
'173.
Corriger La Fortune.—There are unfortunate accidents in the lives of great artists, which compel the painter, for instance, to sketch out his most important picture only as a passing thought, or such as obliged Beethoven to leave behind him only the insufficient pianoforte score of many great sonatas (as in the great B flat). In these cases the artist of a later day must endeavour to fill out the life of the great man,—[Pg 176]of all orchestral effects, would call into life that symphony which has fallen into the piano-trance.' (Human, all too Human)
This is funny coming from Nietzsche who is usually brilliant but wrong, or at best sketchy as he could hardly ever be bothered to write anything cogent longer than a page (more frequently half a page).
Weingartner orchestrated op.106 and it sounds mostly grotesque. There is a historical recording from the 1930s conducted by Weingartner but I am not sure if there has been a later recording. Which is strange and telling in an age when arrangements of the most outlandish things have been recorded (e.g. an orchestration of Brahms' op.8 Trio, AFAIK).
Quote from: Henk on August 30, 2024, 01:34:44 PMIt is more a symphony than a sonata actually. Like Nietzsche wrote. Someone should write it for an orchestra.
'173.
Corriger La Fortune.—There are unfortunate accidents in the lives of great artists, which compel the painter, for instance, to sketch out his most important picture only as a passing thought, or such as obliged Beethoven to leave behind him only the insufficient pianoforte score of many great sonatas (as in the great B flat). In these cases the artist of a later day must endeavour to fill out the life of the great man,—[Pg 176]of all orchestral effects, would call into life that symphony which has fallen into the piano-trance.' (Human, all too Human)
It's a while since I heard the Weingartner transcription.
It's an interesting idea because it suggests that the music would benefit from being played colourfully on keyboard, symphonic colours from the piano. On a modern piano Demidenko does this maybe - I like what he does very much.
https://www.discogs.com/release/3397357-Nikolai-Demidenko-Ludwig-van-Beethoven-Sonaten-F%C3%BCr-Klavier-Op-10-Nr-2-Und-Op-106-Hammerklavier
Quote from: Mandryka on August 31, 2024, 04:37:39 AMIt's a while since I heard the Weingartner transcription.
It's an interesting idea because it suggests that the music would benefit from being played colourfully on keyboard, symphonic colours from the piano. On a modern piano Demidenko does this maybe - I like what he does very much.
https://www.discogs.com/release/3397357-Nikolai-Demidenko-Ludwig-van-Beethoven-Sonaten-F%C3%BCr-Klavier-Op-10-Nr-2-Und-Op-106-Hammerklavier
Found the Weingartner on Spotify.
Quote from: Jo498 on August 30, 2024, 11:57:02 PMThis is funny coming from Nietzsche who is usually brilliant but wrong, or at best sketchy as he could hardly ever be bothered to write anything cogent longer than a page (more frequently half a page).
Weingartner orchestrated op.106 and it sounds mostly grotesque. There is a historical recording from the 1930s conducted by Weingartner but I am not sure if there has been a later recording. Which is strange and telling in an age when arrangements of the most outlandish things have been recorded (e.g. an orchestration of Brahms' op.8 Trio, AFAIK).
Your POV regarding Nietzsche, not mine.
Thanks for the Weingartner tip. I didn't know.
It's a bit surprising that Nietzsche who composed himself and usually wrote aphorisms instead of systematic treatises, so he knew that there is not "greatest genre" for every kind of thought, would think that great Beethoven piano sonatas "should" have been symphonies.
Clearly "should" does not mean that Beethoven didn't have enough time for a symphony, like a painter might only manage a sketch instead of the full painting. Nietzsche must have known that this was not the case but still found them in a sense "too big" for piano only.
Apart from Beethoven's intimate relation with his instrument that usually had him trying new or specially darin things first in piano music and the sonatas clearly "fitting" the piano there is also the aspect of going to the limit of what one instrument and player can do, similar to the Bach solo violin suites. Obviously not quite the same as a violin is far more restricted in possibilities.
That Weingartner's arrangement remains obscure seems evidence that, unlike in cases like Mussorgsky's "Pictures" and others, Weingartner and Nietzsche were wrong. op.106 (I am not aware of an orchestrated Appassionata or op.111) is best on the piano.
Quote from: Jo498 on August 31, 2024, 11:10:18 AMThat Weingartner's arrangement remains obscure seems evidence that, unlike in cases like Mussorgsky's "Pictures" and others, Weingartner and Nietzsche were wrong. op.106 (I am not aware of an orchestrated Appassionata or op.111) is best on the piano.
I think you can't infer that. Another plausible reason is that they want to stick to Beethoven and Nietzsche has had too little persuasion power.
Quote from: Atriod on August 04, 2024, 02:20:43 PM[Concerning the 8 bars missing from the finale of Appasionata in Kempff's mono CD release]
That is present on every digital release of the mono cycle, only the LPs are correct. I verified that with my first pressing CD mono cycle box set when I received the Wilhelm Kempff Edition box.
The Documents [Membran] release of Kempff's mono set doesn't leave those eight bars out. Maybe / maybe not this can be seen as an indication that Documents used the LPs as source material. Usually (never proven as far as I know) Membran is supposed to use preexisting CDs as their source.
In the other thread Todd said he wants a second cycle from Francois-Frederic Guy. I liked the first cycle (and most the cycles that Todd recommends), but what are you looking for in a second?
Quote from: grocklin on September 01, 2024, 09:50:27 AMIn the other thread Todd said he wants a second cycle from Francois-Frederic Guy. I liked the first cycle (and most the cycles that Todd recommends), but what are you looking for in a second?
Interpretive evolution. FFG recorded the LvB Cello Sonatas twice, going from extraordinarily great with Gastinel to possibly greatest ever with Phillips. He's recorded the LvB piano concertos twice, with both sets being rather excellent. He's recorded Op 106 thrice. I just want to hear what and older, wiser FFG can do. Great things, I would think.
Quote from: Henk on August 31, 2024, 11:22:23 AMI think you can't infer that. Another plausible reason is that they want to stick to Beethoven and Nietzsche has had too little persuasion power.
Weingarter should have persuasive power as one of the most important conductors of the early 20th century if the orchestration worked well. Even disregarding a piece like Mussorgsky's Pictures where the Ravel orchestration is more popular than the original, there are quite a few recordings of e.g. orchestrations of Schubert's "Grand Duo" or the Brahms/Schönberg piano quartet.
There is all kind of far more outlandish stuff recorded, but in 90 years nobody picked up Weingartner/Beethoven op.106?
It's a devastating verdict, if there is any such thing!
Quote from: Jo498 on September 01, 2024, 10:16:39 AMWeingarter should have persuasive power as one of the most important conductors of the early 20th century if the orchestration worked well. Even disregarding a piece like Mussorgsky's Pictures where the Ravel orchestration is more popular than the original, there are quite a few recordings of e.g. orchestrations of Schubert's "Grand Duo" or the Brahms/Schönberg piano quartet.
There is all kind of far more outlandish stuff recorded, but in 90 years nobody picked up Weingartner/Beethoven op.106?
It's a devastating verdict, if there is any such thing!
Nietzsches uses op.106 as an example.
I like his interpretations a lot but he's definitely not the cleanest/most transparent of the top bunch. Maybe the least. But he makes it up in other ways.
I like his concerto cycle but I think I like Martin Helmchen's even more from around the same time. He should do a sonata cycle.
What do you think of Sudbin's sonatas recording?
Quote from: grocklin on September 01, 2024, 10:23:20 AMI like his concerto cycle but I think I like Martin Helmchen's even more from around the same time. He should do a sonata cycle.
My experience with Helmchen thus far is that I prefer him as concerto soloist or accompanist, not solo. If he records a complete cycle, I will listen to it.
Quote from: grocklin on September 01, 2024, 10:23:20 AMWhat do you think of Sudbin's sonatas recording?
I'm not a big Sudbin fan and have not listened to his solo Beethoven. As with Helmchen, if he records a complete cycle, I will listen to it. I rarely buy solo LvB piano sonata discs except from pianists I really favor, such as Schuch.