GMG Classical Music Forum

I run a classical music website where I post suggested works each week and I've hit a bit of a roadblock and could use some help.  I love classical music but I'm really not too experienced with anything post-1900 (other than Puccini and of course Adagio for Strings).  Most of the works I've posted on my site (if not all) are pre-1900 and in order to expand what I offer, I think I need to add some post-1900 classical music.

So along those lines, can someone give me a "top 5" classical music works of the 20th century -- minus Adagio for Strings and minus the Rachmaninoff Piano Concertos?

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated -- and hey, I may even find something I like!

Thanks!

Here is a link to a thread about 20 cent. orchestral pieces.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,16404.msg417112.html#msg417112

If you feed in 20th century to the search engine, you will find a lot od discussion and suggestions. You could try a range of the pieces out on You Tube.

Debussy: La Mer
Prokofiev: Classical Symphony, (Sym No 1)
Vaughn Williams: Variations on a theme of Thomas Tallis
Rodrigo: Guitar Concerto
Philip Glass: Violin Concerto
Carl Rutti: Requiem
Golijov: Ayre (2004)

Those pieces range across the 20th Century and all are very accessable. Others may suggest more adventurous pieces. But there is an enormous range of material from late Mahler, early Schoenberg and Richard Strauss onwards.

Mike

Quote from: knight66 on March 29, 2011, 10:44:02 PM
Carl Rutti: Requiem

Carl Who?

Anyway, here are 5 pieces any 20th-c. fan should know:

Stravinsky: The Rite of Spring
Mahler: Symphony #9
Shostakovich: Symphony #5
Berg: Wozzeck
Bartok: Concerto for Orchestra

Caveat: I could come up with a dozen more lists of pieces any 20th-c. fan should know. The 5 I listed, though, are safe (practically indisputable) choices. Someone will doubtless note that they cover only the first half of the century...but you have to start somewhere.

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/8572317.jpg)

Not an obvious choice I guess, have hardly heard about the guy myself.

You really should dig into Mahler and Shostakovich. Basically the Mahler hype is about his Symphonies and Lieder/Song cycles, and in case of Shostakovich it's the Symphonies (yes: #5 is a safe bet) and String Quartets.
There are a lot of Shostakovich enthusiasts here. See also: Favorite Moments in a Shostakovich Symphony (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,6231.0.html).

Here goes for nothing:

Sibelius: Symphony no 6.
Richard Strauss: Electra.
Stravinsky: Le sacre du printemps(who didn't see this one coming?).
Bartok: Violin concerto BB 117.
Schönberg: String quartet no 2.

I'm going to second Mike's list. It's all really easily likable stuff - so any listener who's mostly a 19th century fan should be able to listen to La Mer, or the Rodrigo or Glass, and enjoy it instantly. I've even heard the Rutti, and although I did think it a bit long, that's because I'm just not a big singing person. If you like, say, Faure's Requiem, then you will like the Rutti very much.

Alberich suggests some good stuff, too. Anybody who likes Rimsky-Korsakov (Scheherazade, etc) will like Stravinsky's Firebird, and from there it's only a small hop away to The Rite of Spring. And you'll find exciting, emotional stuff in Shostakovich Symphonies 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, and 11. (5 is The Famous One, although my own favorites are 6, which is half very dramatic and half very silly, 9, which is a sort of homage to Haydn, and 10 - maybe his most personal, romantic symphony.) Shostakovich's Piano Concerto No 2 is a really interesting alternative to the Rachmaninov Piano Concertos, because it's intentionally really pared down and simple but still very emotional.

Oh: everything Maurice Ravel ever wrote!

Quote from: Brian on March 30, 2011, 01:13:02 AM
I'm going to second Mike's list. It's all really easily likable stuff - so any listener who's mostly a 19th century fan should be able to listen to La Mer, or the Rodrigo or Glass, and enjoy it instantly.

IMHO a questionable criterion - basically "20th century music that sounds like 19th century music! Nothing to be afraid of, folks!"

Shouldn't such lists try to give newbies an idea of what makes 20th century music different?

This is the nice and easy route and it might work well.

Quote from: Velimir on March 30, 2011, 01:24:23 AM
IMHO a questionable criterion - basically "20th century music that sounds like 19th century music! Nothing to be afraid of, folks!"

Shouldn't such lists try to give newbies an idea of what makes 20th century music different?

Well, to be honest, it depends on what the original poster wants to listen to. It also depends on whether you want to move forward slowly or jump right in. For instance, listening to "The Firebird" before "The Rite of Spring" might not just be because Firebird is, so to speak, easier or less fearful, but it also illustrates where exactly Rite was coming from. As great as it would be to be able to say, "this is what makes 20th century music different" and then play Shosty's Fifteenth, Boulez's Notations, and Scelsi's Four Pieces on Only One Note, you'd only do that if you knew your listener was fearless, ambitious, or at least not likely to get woozy-eyed.

I'll assume that we're talking orchestral music, and do want to give something of the sheer variety of styles in the 20th Century.

Stravinsky: Rite of Spring (1913) -- the power of irregular rhythm
Sibelius: Symphony No 7 (1924) -- the taut one-movement symphonic work is key in this century
Berg: Violin Concerto (1935) -- the classic entry point into serial music
Lutoslawski: Symphony No 3 (1983) -- the symphony reinvented for a post-tonal style
Ligeti: Violin Concerto (1992) -- one of the greatest and most influential post-war composers sums up his career

Quote from: edward on March 30, 2011, 05:06:20 AM
I'll assume that we're talking orchestral music . . .

. . . but just in case we're open to chamber music:

Stravinsky, L'histoire du soldat, complete (1918)
Hindemith, Konzertmusik, Opus 49 for piano, brass & two harps (1930)
Messiaen, Quatuor pour la fin du temps (1941)
Bartók, Sonata for violin unaccompanied (1943)
Prokofiev, Sonata for violin & piano in f minor, Opus  80 (1938-1946)

Holy cow! I can't believe all of the responses!  Thanks.

And this, Velimir, is hilarious,

QuoteIMHO a questionable criterion - basically "20th century music that sounds like 19th century music! Nothing to be afraid of, folks!"

I laugh because I happen to really like La Mer and I find Rodrigo very accessible!

But it's exactly my point --  the "problem" that I have with 20th century music, specifically, is that it isn't like earlier music and I need to learn to expand my ear.

I guess that it's just that 20th century music is so less "framed", for lack of a better word so it's harder to get a grip around it (IMHO) vs a Mozart Piano Concerto.

Well you all have given me a wonderful list to start with and I do appreciate everyone's contributions.  Now off to hear some "new" (for me) music!

Much appreciated!

Quote from: Velimir on March 29, 2011, 11:55:22 PM
Carl Who?

Anyway, here are 5 pieces any 20th-c. fan should know:

Stravinsky: The Rite of Spring
Mahler: Symphony #9
Shostakovich: Symphony #5
Berg: Wozzeck
Bartok: Concerto for Orchestra

Caveat: I could come up with a dozen more lists of pieces any 20th-c. fan should know. The 5 I listed, though, are safe (practically indisputable) choices. Someone will doubtless note that they cover only the first half of the century...but you have to start somewhere.

Yes, That's where Rutti comes in, and Glass and Golijov.

Mike

Rütti, Tüt-tüt

Tüt-tüt! Never heard of him, what did he write?


Mike

No, I think that's the title of a woodwind quintet by Rütti . . . .

There's a somewhat similar thread in Great Recordings with quite a few recommendations.

Random - at times adventurous and idiosyncratic - recommendations:

Bartok: The Miraculous Mandarin
Busoni: Doctor Faust and the Piano Concerto
Julian Carrillo: Christopher Columbus Prelude
Karl Amadeus Hartmann: Symphonies VI-VIII
Charles Ives: Robert Browning Overture, Holidays Symphony
Gustav Mahler: Symphonies V-X
Krzysztof Penderecki: Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima
Sergei Prokofiev: Symphonies II - III, Scythian Suite, Chout
Arnold Schoenberg: Pelleas und Melisande, Five Pieces for Orchestra
Alexander Zemlinsky: Six Songs for Orchestra

Cato has succeeded where any list of five must fail, that is, in giving some idea of the breadth of the 20th century in music.

Quote from: Cato on March 30, 2011, 09:59:16 AM
Random - at times adventurous and idiosyncratic - recommendations:

Bartok: The Miraculous Mandarin
Busoni: Doctor Faust and the Piano Concerto
Julian Carrillo: Christopher Columbus Prelude
Karl Amadeus Hartmann: Symphonies VI-VIII
Charles Ives: Robert Browning Overture, Holidays Symphony
Gustav Mahler: Symphonies V-X
Krzysztof Penderecki: Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima
Sergei Prokofiev: Symphonies II - III, Scythian Suite, Chout
Arnold Schoenberg: Pelleas und Melisande, Five Pieces for Orchestra
Alexander Zemlinsky: Six Songs for Orchestra

I think I could benefit from listening, in full, to this list. I've only heard 6 works on it, and the suite from a seventh (Mandarin).

The entire Bartok piece is terrific; there is a good cheap Naxos recording.

I got the impression from the opening poster that he was looking for works that would not frighten the horses. Karl, your list is beyond esoteric! Were you being serious?

Mike

Quote from: Apollon on March 30, 2011, 05:46:32 AM
. . . but just in case we're open to chamber music:

Stravinsky, L'histoire du soldat, complete (1918)
Hindemith, Konzertmusik, Opus 49 for piano, brass & two harps (1930)
Messiaen, Quatuor pour la fin du temps (1941)
Bartók, Sonata for violin unaccompanied (1943)
Prokofiev, Sonata for violin & piano in f minor, Opus  80 (1938-1946)

Esoteric, Mike? Four of them are 'mainstream' 20th-c.; the Hindemith is a piece one needs to dig for, I grant, but in idiom, it's as clean Hindemith as one could ask for. I'd play it for my mum.

Karl, To someone who says that he does not know any 20 century music, I think it basically perverse to offer that specific Stravinsky piece. Surely the Messiaen is an acquired taste? Apart from the first and third, I can't recall when I saw any of them on concert programmes.

These are important pieces, but how would you claim they sit within the terms of the original enquiry?

Mike

Wow. That post would take more unpacking than I have the time or inclination for. Suffice it to say that it seems perverse (!) to protest Karl's list so vehemently.

Besides, if the OP doesn't go for any of Karl's suggestions, well, too bad for the OP is all I can say.

And what thread anywhere, ever, on any board, has ever stayed rigorously to the terms of the original post? (And who would even want that?)

Some good lists here. I think Apollon's selection lists some works that are basically essential chamber works of the c20th.

I like how James included Bernstein & Gershwin. & some of Les Six - not all c20th music has to be "serious."

I'd also add film composers, who have been many people's first or main exposure to classical music - if you accept film music as classical music. Guys like Nino Rota, John Williams and Howard Shore.

& one I'd add (here's me getting on my hobby horse) is Piazzolla - any number of his tangos & songs, he also composed multi movement works like The Four Seasons, Bandoneon Concerto & the Maria de Buenos Aires Suite. His music is an eclectic blend of not only the tango, but jazz, Baroque counterpoint and avant-garde techniques. He's good as a kind of "one stop shop" for many things that had gone before in the history of classical music...

Quote from: some guy on March 30, 2011, 04:22:10 PM
Wow. That post would take more unpacking than I have the time or inclination for. Suffice it to say that it seems perverse (!) to protest Karl's list so vehemently.

Besides, if the OP doesn't go for any of Karl's suggestions, well, too bad for the OP is all I can say.

And what thread anywhere, ever, on any board, has ever stayed rigorously to the terms of the original post? (And who would even want that?)

Oh, I see, I thought it was about being helpful. My mistake.

Mike

Quote from: James on March 30, 2011, 06:07:12 PM
I wouldn't, might as well expose someone to the real stuff and avoid the film PAP. Do not equate a Poulenc, Gershwin or Bernstein anywhere near cheap film music, that would be an epic failure of cogency on your part.

(if you're out there jowol, obviously more excitement has just entered your life, i have dropped some more gold for you to gather; have fun!!!)

Obviously I disagree. For example, would you call something like Nino Rota's music for Fellini's "La Strada" as "cheap?" It has it's place in today's concert halls just as the symphonies and concertos do. I have a recording on EMI with the Monte Carlo Orchestra under Gianluigi Gelmetti. What about Bernstein's music to "On the Waterfront" which is considered by many in the game to be one of his finest works? I have heard Bernstein's own account with the NYPO under the composer, as well as the recording made by his protege, Marin Alsop.

Why do you think orchestras and conductors of that calibre who play "cheap" rubbish music? I could give you many other examples of film music that is just as good as the types of music you value. But obviously your view is founded more on ideology than common sense, so I won't bother wasting my time. You (& most others here) have far more knowledge of classical music in general than me, I'm not disputing that, I just disagree strongly with your reasoning...

Quote from: Sid on March 30, 2011, 05:19:44 PM
I'd also add film composers, who have been many people's first or main exposure to classical music - if you accept film music as classical music. Guys like Nino Rota, John Williams and Howard Shore.

I wasn't sure if people would start bitching about movie composers, so I didn't mention any... otherwise I would have totally selected some, especially Ennio Morricone. When you listen to his music, you just know that these movies are going to kick ass.

Quote from: knight66 on March 30, 2011, 09:33:16 PM
Oh, I see, I thought it was about being helpful. My mistake.

Mike

Gosh, I hadn't thought my little list was other than helpful, Mike! Again, apart from the Hindemith (a piece which it is something of a stretch for me to regard as a horse-frightener), I've heard all the pieces on that list live. (In fact, there was one year alone when I heard the Prokofiev sonata — another piece to which I almost cannot conceive of any listener objecting — performed live at three separate concerts.)

Quote from: James on March 31, 2011, 02:47:52 AM
My point exactly.

No, I don't think so. Your point was that film music is rubbish. Although I don't know (& don't really have a great desire to know) thousands of compositions by thousands of composers & constantly rank & compare them, I'd like to think that I have the basics of critical thinking & more importantly the ability to enjoy & appreciate a wide variety of music, be it classical or not, so called "high" or "low" art. Knowledge is one thing, but being able to question one's own ideologies is another. I respect your's and other's knowledge of classical music, I basically come here to learn. But negating people's opinions based on their experience (which can be just as valid as those of the more experted people) doesn't make sense to me. I can think of a lot of "serious" composers who wrote film music, and it's usually of a reasonably high quality. Not everyone comes to classical through the route/s people like you came.

BTW, you mention Les Six. Actually, one of the members, Georges Auric was a prolific film composer, a lot of his best works were in that genre. Film music has now entered the concert halls, bastions of "high art." Recently, Howard Shore's Oscar winning score for the Lord of the Rings trilogy is being performed in concert halls all over the globe (including here in Sydney coming up in May this year). Anyway, I won't waste my time with you, because obviously not only is film music "rubbish" but so are the opinions of the mere small fry like myself (this is the subtext of your short reply)...

Quote from: Sid on March 31, 2011, 05:01:26 PM
No, I don't think so. Your point was that film music is rubbish. Although I don't know (& don't really have a great desire to know) thousands of compositions by thousands of composers & constantly rank & compare them, I'd like to think that I have the basics of critical thinking & more importantly the ability to enjoy & appreciate a wide variety of music, be it classical or not, so called "high" or "low" art. Knowledge is one thing, but being able to question one's own ideologies is another. I respect your's and other's knowledge of classical music, I basically come here to learn. But negating people's opinions based on their experience (which can be just as valid as those of the more experted people) doesn't make sense to me. I can think of a lot of "serious" composers who wrote film music, and it's usually of a reasonably high quality. Not everyone comes to classical through the route/s people like you came.

BTW, you mention Les Six. Actually, one of the members, Georges Auric was a prolific film composer, a lot of his best works were in that genre. Film music has now entered the concert halls, bastions of "high art." Recently, Howard Shore's Oscar winning score for the Lord of the Rings trilogy is being performed in concert halls all over the globe (including here in Sydney coming up in May this year). Anyway, I won't waste my time with you, because obviously not only is film music "rubbish" but so are the opinions of the mere small fry like myself (this is the subtext of your short reply)...

Sid:

Pay no attention to that man behind the curtness!   $:)

Patrick Doyle: Henry V
Philip Glass: The Illusionist
Bernard Herrmann: Psycho, Citizen Kane, Mysterious Island, On Dangerous Ground
James Horner: Braveheart
Gottfried Huppertz: Metropolis, Die Nibelungen
Jerome Moross: The Big Country
Alfred Newman: How The West Was Won
Thomas Newman: Fried Green Tomatoes
Sergei Prokofiev: Ivan the Terrible, Alexander Nevsky
Miklos Rozsa: Ben-Hur, El Cid, The Lost Weekend, Spellbound
Dmitri Shostakovich: The Gadfly
Max Steiner: King Kong

Excellent list, Cato, many of which (I'd hazard a guess) are really good "20th Century Music Recommendations." :D A question we can ask is, given the calibre of names on your list, would guys like Mozart & Beethoven be writing film music if they were alive today? The answer is yes, because many of these "giants" of classical music wrote significant amounts of "incidental music" to plays. As a matter of fact, yours is an excellent list for people like me to begin exploring as well - I've only scratched the surface, but I've found much pleasure & relevance in the film music that I've heard so far. Eg. my favourite work by Walton is his Henry V, and the other scores he produced for Olivier are top-notch as well...

Quote from: Cato on March 31, 2011, 05:54:26 PM
...
Dmitri Shostakovich: The Gadfly
...

Though I should still speak yet more highly of the scores for the Kozintsev Shakespeare films.

Patrick Doyle's scores for Henry V, Dead Again & Much Ado About Nothing are all very well done.

I need to pay more attention to his score in Hamlet . . . .

Quote from: James on April 01, 2011, 08:37:45 AM
No film should be mentioned in this thread, because we're really addressing an art that focuses on the music first and foremost  ... The Gadfly is not top five,  not of the century, not even amoungst Shosta's own output!

You're irritating James, and you know.

Film music is music, for sure the music mentioned here. We can discuss about other film music, but the point you try to make doesn't make sense.

Henk

Quote from: James on April 01, 2011, 08:37:45 AM
No film should be mentioned in this thread, because we're really addressing an art that focuses on the music first and foremost...

This is an "all or nothing" point of view. When approaching c20th music, it is valuable for a newcomer to explore all of the genres to some degree & that includes film music, as well as orchestral, chamber, choral, opera, etc. I think that your idea of what constitutes "art music" is quite limited, and you have a tendency to think that everyone approaches classical music in the same way that you do.

Quote from: James on April 01, 2011, 08:26:01 AM
I never mentioned Les Six, go back and show me where I did. And give it time, you will come around to understanding the differences between starting someone off with the best that the Art music legacy has to offer and shit that isn't even art music to begin with (i.e. perhaps mildly fun but light low-mileage film ephemeral subservient backdrop.)

Ok my mistake, you listed Poulenc & Satie (who inspired Les Six) No need to be this confrontative. I disagree that film music is "ephemeral subservient backdrop." The best film music is integral the film as a complete work of art. Walton's Henry V which I mentioned above is a good example of this.

Quote from: James on April 01, 2011, 08:37:45 AM
The Gadfly is not top five,  not of the century, not even amoungst Shosta's own output!

.

Yet the "Romance" from The Gadfly is probably still his most popular work, and the thing that some or even many people are familiar with first before they delve into his other works...

Quote from: James on April 01, 2011, 06:04:41 PM
Sid your logic is greatly flawed my friend; did the two long lists that I provided in this thread earlier seem "limited" .. ?

I'm not saying you're 100% limited, but we all have our limitations, which is fine. Your lists are fine. But judging from mine and other's discussion regarding including film music in these "recommendations," I think that there must be quite a few people out there who would urge newcomers to c20th music to explore the repertoire across the board - including as many aspects/types as possible. The OP mentioned some c20th orchestral pieces s/he knows, so extending from that, film music is relevant as a lot of it is orchestral. But I think Apollon's chamber list is also good. Anyhow, this argument is getting a bit academic now that the OP doesn't seem to have checked in here for a while...

Quote from: James on March 30, 2011, 06:07:12 PM
I wouldn't, might as well expose someone to the real stuff and avoid the film PAP. Do not equate a Poulenc, Gershwin or Bernstein anywhere near cheap film music, that would be an epic failure of cogency on your part.

Pfff!

PS Re: Bernstein and cheap film music, ever hear of this

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51TFBnzwPgL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

:)

Re: film music vis-a-vis the original post, I'd recommend looking into it for the following reasons:

* film is one of the most substantial new art forms of the 20th century; to ignore film music would be like ignoring ballet music or incidental theater music from earlier centuries.
* numerous big-name classical composers wrote for film: Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Bernstein, Copland, Korngold, Vaughan Williams, Arnold, Walton, etc. No point in arbitrarily excluding part of their work from investigation. (Similarly, composers known mostly for their work in film have written for the concert hall: Rota, Hermann, Rosza, etc.)
* based on the OP's posts here and elsewhere, accessibility seems to be important, and a lot of orchestral film scores of the period were written in relatively accessible styles

I have a problem with using "accessibility" as a touchstone. It seems always to involve privileging a certain audience, an audience that's not terribly sophisticated (experienced) or adventuresome. I'm not sure why that audience gets to be privileged, for one. I'm not sure that any audience should be privileged.

In the eighties, when I had been plunging into all types of twentieth century music, I found Scelsi, for whatever reason, to be not at all accessible. And a little later, I found Eliane Radigue and Phill Niblock equally inaccessible.

At the same time, I found Diamanda Galas and Luciano Berio and Gordon Mumma to be quite accessible.

Which is only to say that "it depends" is the key to how "accessibility" works. And unless you're committed to privileging one particular type of listener, then the question must always be "accessible to whom?"

And if some of these recommendations have seemed to push the boundaries of what the OP apparently finds accessible, that seems something to be applauded rather than not.

Quote from: some guy on April 02, 2011, 06:21:06 AM
I have a problem with using "accessibility" as a touchstone.

Yes!

. . . possibly even apart from the fact that, bandied about as That Which Is Desirable in new music, it has become code on the order almost of "Socialist Realism."

I'd like to suggest Olivier Greif (1950-2000). He wrote very intense yet relatively tuneful music--picture an even darker, more serious French Shostakovich! I especially like his Sonate de Requiem for Cello and Piano and his Piano Trio.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/514cD3LlBdL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Quote from: Apollon on April 02, 2011, 08:43:06 AM
Yes!

. . . possibly even apart from the fact that, bandied about as That Which Is Desirable in new music, it has become code on the order almost of "Socialist Realism."

The Listener is the one who should be accessible to the music!   0:)

After giving the work a chance (or two or three, depending on the reaction) the Listener has the right to become inaccessible to it.  But even then...Time might change the Listener's mind.

Interesting: because somebody claims a work cannot stand alone, it therefore cannot stand alone!

But what if it can!?   :o

Repetition can help some people:

Quote from: Cato on April 02, 2011, 09:04:23 AM
The Listener is the one who should be accessible to the music!   0:)

After giving the work a chance (or two or three, depending on the reaction) the Listener has the right to become inaccessible to it.  But even then...Time might change the Listener's mind.

Quote from: James on April 02, 2011, 09:10:55 AM
Again .. point out the standalone film music that even compares to the stuff you're aligning it with. Can't be done.

Alexander Nevsky?

And hey, if you're like me and think that Schnittke's 2nd violin sonata is one of the great works in the genre, it's mostly an adaptation of his soundtrack to the animated film The Glass Accordion.

Quote from: James on April 02, 2011, 01:52:59 PM
...and it's interesting how it's the names of composers who were completely steeped & established world-wide in the 'serious composition' side of the equation with their own voices intact crossing over into film who are mentioned as opposed to the other way 'round. Says it all imo...

Says what?  Only that these great composers, most of whom had no real need to "cross over," found something interesting in the idea of film work and didn't think it "beneath them" to contribute to the ever-increasing film-score literature.

And you can say all you want that scores like Alexander Nevsky, Hary Janos, the Errol Flynn Robin Hood, or Koyaanisqatsi are "not even close" to their composers' best work.  I have found otherwise.  Which of us is right? ???

Quote from: James on April 02, 2011, 09:10:55 AM
Again .. point out the standalone film music that even compares to the stuff you're aligning it with. Can't be done. Name just one that even compares to the pieces that Bartok, Stravinsky, Ravel, Tchaikovsky, Debussy & others wrote that are teeming with tremendous musical invention and substance. You're confusing things if you think that the music backdrop found in film even comes close to the real thing. It doesn't, and it can't. If someone started me off with a false notion that film pap was serious art music composition, let alone 'tops' of the art-form ... id be like "that's all that there is?" .. and  never even consider listening at all afterward (no reason to). Thank God, it's not ... and we have things like the Miraculous Mandarin, Firebird, Petrushka, The Rite of Spring, Les Noces, Pulcinella, Apollo, Agon, Jeux, Daphnie et Chloe, The Sleeping Beauty, Swan Lake, Appalachian Spring, Romeo & Juliet etc.

Onto the merry-go-round once again... I'm not aligning anything with anything. You do realize you're the (only) one hung up on the comparison game? I'm suggesting that someone with an open mind and ear who wanted to explore 20th-century music would not exclude film music. That would be as willfully foolish as refusing to learn about religious music or ballet music or chamber music or opera. Film is a major artistic medium, music can play a major role in it--this idea that you repeat that it's inevitably some kind of distant sonic backdrop is odd, to say the least--and major composers have written for the genre. Ergo, anyone who actually wants to learn about music would take the time to study it.

Quote
Trying to elevate film with the 'names/brand' recognition of composers who garnered a reputation NOT because of their film ties isn't a strong point at all. For many of the names you mention .. you can point to MUCH MUCH better & more substantial things for beginners to start with. (see my lists for starts) And composers who wrote mostly in film .. who tried to crossover into the world of serious writing/composition are inconsequential and nowhere near 'tops' either. Like really, I can't believe how you just can't hear that  .. heck, or how they don't even have a 'true' voice of their own!

OP wants to hear and learn about 20th-century music, major composers wrote for film during that time, ergo their film works are worth investigating.

I'm curious, btw, which specific concert works by any of the "film composers" I mentioned have you listened to, and what specifically led you to the conclusion they lack "true" voices of their own?

Quote
Yea accessible as in hardly penetrating the consciousness at all and sounds exactly like what they were intended to do; provide light backdrop .. hidden behind images & scenes, dialog, sound effects and plot. Hardly a serious scenario to focus on music itself, let alone showcase it! And it has no real life beyond it's film association either .. you know, let's get real ... i sense there is confusion just because some of the stuff is written down on paper and sometimes uses traditional instruments ... somehow because of that it's "serious writing" .. it's not.  There are 'scores' available for all kinds of pop culture shit.

To equate all film with pop culture betrays staggering ignorance. That would be like saying Faulkner and Joyce are dumbed-down beach reading. Again, it's odd that someone who professes to enjoy music would see soundtracks as "light backdrops," a generalization that means you don't pay attention to what you're seeing and hearing. They "fail to penetrate the consciousness" of people who refuse to listen carefully. And as I and numerous others posters have pointed out repeatedly, film scores often do stand on their own, either as they stand or remade into concert suites. Many of them are listened to independently on CD or in the concert hall, which is an obvious and irrefutable fact.

Quote from: some guy on April 02, 2011, 06:21:06 AM
I have a problem with using "accessibility" as a touchstone. It seems always to involve privileging a certain audience, an audience that's not terribly sophisticated (experienced) or adventuresome. I'm not sure why that audience gets to be privileged, for one. I'm not sure that any audience should be privileged.

I understand your point, but it could also be seen as giving a particular audience what they know they like. I personally like to investigate broadly in the arts, and I think that can be a healthy, rewarding thing for anyone who is either curious or trying to gain a broad perspective. But that's hardly indicative of everyone.

Consider, too, that a music lover might have explored all kinds of "adventurous and sophisticated" works but come to the conclusion that he or she most prefers Beethoven, Brahms, and Dvorak. Hardly unsophisticated fare. And of course, de gustibus...

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And if some of these recommendations have seemed to push the boundaries of what the OP apparently finds accessible, that seems something to be applauded rather than not.

Leading someone outside their comfort zone is one thing, throwing them is another :)

Quote from: James on April 02, 2011, 02:49:27 AM
It's not limited at all ..  and those lists cover a wide wide breadth of the Art music legacy of the last century "across the board". I think that if someone has to resort to cheap film pap as a recommendation of true 20th century art music composition considering lists like mine, than you truly don't know much and are in fact; the one that is "limited".

Thanks for the implied put-down! I simply listen to music because I enjoy it. I don't care if it's a concerto or string quartet or film score. Maybe I don't know much, but I have been listening to classical music, both recorded and live, on and off for more than 20 years. I have other things going on in my life right now than simply amassing recordings and spending time at home in front of the stereo listening to them. I really don't give a toss if my knowledge of music is not as great as yours or whoevers here, I just come here to learn something new, I have a positive attitude. I don't see things as black and white like you seem to do, pushing people into a corner etc. Your posts about various aspects of composers repertoire on other threads have been enlightening for me. Other members here like Lethe have written many entries that I generally find interesting and informative. But I think judging from comments above from many knowledgeable people like Grazioso (yes - Bernstein's "On the Waterfront" is one of the greats!) that your opinions here have been controversial & not really agreeable to many people here.

One thing that I'd like to reiterate (which you seemed to ignore before) is that many people come to classical through film music. You might not have come to it via that route, but many others have. So it's logical to include some film music on any list of c20th classical music, imo. There are many "canons" of all specific genres - be they symphonies or operas or film scores - there is not only one "canon." Anyway, I'll stop now. I'm just wasting my time...

Quote from: some guy on April 02, 2011, 06:21:06 AM
I have a problem with using "accessibility" as a touchstone. It seems always to involve privileging a certain audience, an audience that's not terribly sophisticated (experienced) or adventuresome. I'm not sure why that audience gets to be privileged, for one. I'm not sure that any audience should be privileged.

Most classical listeners that I know, in real life, are not really "specialists" like you find on these internet forums. They may go to concerts and buy a few recordings here and there, but they might have some other hobbies or preoccupations which take up their time in other ways. I wouldn't underestimate the sophistication, experience, adventurousness or knowledge of these people. I think thumbing your nose at someone who doesn't have 1000+ recordings or something like that equates to quite an elitist attitude. IMO, one can gain a fairly solid knowledge of classical music in many of it's forms, styles and eras with only a limited amount of recordings. The issue is quality rather than quantity. & it's also partly about attitude. I'm one of those people who owns far less recordings than most people here, but I wouldn't say that that makes me less sophisticated, experienced or adventuresome. I have gone to a wide variety of concerts - from period instruments to electronicacoustic music. My cd collection tends to have a number of works in different genres for each composer that has interested me. I have explored many things but not as in-depth as some of the "specialists." Does that make my opinions or impressions carry less weight than those people? If my opinions are of lesser value, then probably so are those of a great many of lifetime classical music lovers (who aren't members of forums like this, they are the "silent majority")...

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Which is only to say that "it depends" is the key to how "accessibility" works. And unless you're committed to privileging one particular type of listener, then the question must always be "accessible to whom?"

Yes, I don't like the "a" word either. Accessibility means different things to different people. But I think that the main thing the OP wanted was to get some lists of the standard c20th repertoire, which is surely a good place to start for anyone who is beginning to get into c20th classical music. I doubt that he wanted the more obscure names, he really wanted a variety of the "big" names & a variety of their important or at least interesting works...

Quote from: Sid on April 02, 2011, 06:44:33 PM
Most classical listeners that I know, in real life, are not really "specialists" like you find on these internet forums. They may go to concerts and buy a few recordings here and there, but they might have some other hobbies or preoccupations which take up their time in other ways. I wouldn't underestimate the sophistication, experience, adventurousness or knowledge of these people. I think thumbing your nose at someone who doesn't have 1000+ recordings or something like that equates to quite an elitist attitude. IMO, one can gain a fairly solid knowledge of classical music in many of it's forms, styles and eras with only a limited amount of recordings. The issue is quality rather than quantity. & it's also partly about attitude. I'm one of those people who owns far less recordings than most people here, but I wouldn't say that that makes me less sophisticated, experienced or adventuresome. I have gone to a wide variety of concerts - from period instruments to electronicacoustic music. My cd collection tends to have a number of works in different genres for each composer that has interested me. I have explored many things but not as in-depth as some of the "specialists." Does that make my opinions or impressions carry less weight than those people? If my opinions are of lesser value, then probably so are those of a great many of lifetime classical music lovers (who aren't members of forums like this, they are the "silent majority")...

All excellent points my friend. I have to agree with you here. Owning 1,000+ CDs doesn't make anyone an expert, I'm living proof of that, but, then again, I never claimed I was an expert either. I know far less than most members here. My biggest problem, on an Internet forum, is getting what is really inside of my head, out on the screen. I'm terrible with describing music in written format to people, I always have been.

I'm also not as well versed in classical music as many people here are and I happily admit this. I'm a fan of the early to mid 20th Century with a few exceptions here and there. This is my favorite time period. I guess in this sense my knowledge is too specialized to really carry on a normal conversation with an average listener? The person I'm talking with is talking about Scarlatti and I'm talking about Berg, so we're not exactly meeting each other half way. :)

Quote from: Mirror Image on April 02, 2011, 08:22:27 PM
....My biggest problem, on an Internet forum, is getting what is really inside of my head, out on the screen. I'm terrible with describing music in written format to people, I always have been.

Well maybe when we talk about music, we are kind of setting ourselves up to failure. It's so hard to convey music in words. I heard an interview with Vladimir Ashkenazy on radio here in Sydney recently & the host was asking him about a Mahler symphony. & Ashkenazy said it's better not to talk about it much, just to let the music speak for itself.

BTW, I did go on a bit of a rant there, but I find it fruitless to communicate with someone like James for various reasons. He put me down in an indirect way, but he knows very little of my experiences with music, and what it means for me personally. It seems that he only values 'hard knowledge' rather than the many many experiences and multitude of ways in which people of different ways of thinking, etc. value and appreciate classical music...

Quote from: Sid on April 02, 2011, 09:23:59 PM
Well maybe when we talk about music, we are kind of setting ourselves up to failure. It's so hard to convey music in words. I heard an interview with Vladimir Ashkenazy on radio here in Sydney recently & the host was asking him about a Mahler symphony. & Ashkenazy said it's better not to talk about it much, just to let the music speak for itself.

BTW, I did go on a bit of a rant there, but I find it fruitless to communicate with someone like James for various reasons. He put me down in an indirect way, but he knows very little of my experiences with music, and what it means for me personally. It seems that he only values 'hard knowledge' rather than the many many experiences and multitude of ways in which people of different ways of thinking, etc. value and appreciate classical music...

I never worry about what other people think about me nor should anyone else care what I think about them. It doesn't change anything. James is still going to think what he thinks and you're going to continue to think what you think. This said, there's no need for James to insult people in the process. If he's unwilling to see another point-of-view, which is not the mark of somebody who claims to be the age of 60 years old, but rather the point-of-view of someone who is in their early 20s, then let him continue to think whatever he wants to. When there's no voice of reason coming from the other side, I simply shut my door. It's that simple.

If he wants to have an intelligent, civilized conversation without belittling what I enjoy, then, and only then, will there be a conversation.

Quote from: James on April 01, 2011, 08:37:45 AM
No film should be mentioned in this thread, because we're really addressing an art that focuses on the music first and foremost  ... The Gadfly is not top five,  not of the century, not even amoungst Shosta's own output!

Life is a compromise - and we enjoy what we enjoy and shouldn't have to make excuses for what we like as long as we work to develop our tastes and understanding of what we enjoy. In short; the road is more important than the goal. And we're not even all on the same path.

Last weekend I drank Chateau Margaux 86 and Clos de Beze 2001, but I wouldn't dream on looking down on anybody enjoying lesser wine (as I also usually do myself) as long as the wine is understood in the larger context. There' a large difference betweeen claiming that wellmade plonk (most plonk is, well plonk, but even within that context here are quality variations) is the worlds greatest wine and enjoying it for what it is, ie. wellmade wine within its context, which inevitably will include flaws.

Quote from: Sid on April 02, 2011, 09:23:59 PM
BTW, I did go on a bit of a rant there, but I find it fruitless to communicate with someone like James for various reasons. He put me down in an indirect way, but he knows very little of my experiences with music, and what it means for me personally. It seems that he only values 'hard knowledge' rather than the many many experiences and multitude of ways in which people of different ways of thinking, etc. value and appreciate classical music...

I wouldn't say he or people like him value "hard knowledge," but rather they desperately cherish their presuppositions and biases and desperately try to foist them on others.

Quote from: James on April 02, 2011, 02:26:29 PM
I am right...

Ha!  I got you to admit it in so many words: your belief that YOU ARE RIGHT!  ;D

But I have to ask, sir: What are your credentials?  What gives you the right to say "I am right" to me, who not only have a Bachelor's in Music but have spent decades playing in orchestras and other ensembles and exploring composers I may never have heard of (when I have time and money)?  What gives you the right to say "I am right" to such as our "Apollon," who has a doctorate in music and has assembled a considerable portfolio of original compositions?

And before you start to deride academics, please realize that if nothing else, the process of getting a doctorate eliminates any who don't really love what they're doing.  We would never work this hard if we secretly hated music! :o ;D

Quote from: James on April 03, 2011, 01:27:36 PM
Common sense and a life long passion for music.

I have those too...

Quote from: jochanaan on April 03, 2011, 11:36:34 AMBut I have to ask, sir: What are your credentials?

James' credentials? He's 60 years old...duh! ::) :D

Quote from: James on April 03, 2011, 02:00:00 PM
I question that my friend .. considering that you honestly think that the stuff you mentioned earlier is the amongst deepest and most profound music of the last century.

Did I say that?  I must have been getting careless. ;D But much of it is good music.  That's all I'm claiming for it.

Quote from: James on April 03, 2011, 01:27:36 PM
Common sense and a life long passion for music.

Excerpts from The Essential James, Revised Edition, (Stockhausen Press, 37 Zawinul Street, Utopia)


Chapter 23:  Behind the Mask of Apathy:  The Passion of Saint James


Does he care, or doesn't he?  This has traditionally posed one of the most perplexing questions for Jamesian Scholars, as they struggle to reconcile the post-existential nihilism of his assertions of not caring  with the frequency, zealousness, and tenacity of his posts. In this chapter, we first examine the intricately constructed facade of apathy the author displays towards the opinions of others, and after peeling away layers of the onion, we analyze the compassionate, redemptive side of his posts.  As we shall see, his posts are not meant to drive us away, but rather bring us to enlightenment and a heightened state of being-- however, at a poignant and terrible cost.

The Mask of Apathy

Early scholars [Newman, et all1], were very quick to notice the frequency in which the author was quick to deny any personal involvement or interest in the opinions of others.  The occurrences of this theme were quite frequent in the canon, with some of the most famous noted below:

Quote from: James on September 09, 2008, 09:45:39 AM
whatever, shaddup!!!

Quote from: James on October 16, 2007, 08:55:53 AM
much of your last reply isnt worth the time replying to im afraid

Quote from: James on October 09, 2007, 08:36:45 AM
what others here are saying in disagreement, I dont find too compelling or relevant whatsoever...

Quote from: James on February 10, 2010, 04:33:21 PM
Whatever dood.

Quote from: James on July 06, 2010, 10:25:54 AM
I was joking! I don't really give a shit what you listen to quite frankly.

Quote from: James on June 26, 2010, 07:59:19 PM
I never read your post so I dont care about that.

Quote from: James on July 06, 2010, 10:32:00 AM
Nice ... but seriously, I don't care what you listen to and i was just bustin' yer balls a bit, jokingly ...

Quote from: James on April 21, 2009, 03:14:03 PM
Your words are meaningless to me, just to let you know.

Quote from: James on January 06, 2011, 09:25:53 PM
Don't care; your opinions have absolutely no weight at all in my books

Quote from: James on January 08, 2011, 02:44:06 PM
See this proves to me that you don't really know a lot .
I don't really take much stock in your view

Quote from: James on March 21, 2011, 07:02:45 PM
Says the dope who adds nothing the conversation.
Whatever, flea. Go away.

One of the most interesting citations, however, first noted by Sean in his famed essay on Serialism in the works of Mendelssohn², suddenly shed new light on this apparent apathy.

Quote from: James on March 19, 2011, 07:44:47 AM
You're so confused and lost on this and I'm not motivated enough to sort things out for you, it would take way too much time.    And you don't have to approach a discussion like this in a pedantic manor either, that's totally daft.

Suddenly, the author brilliantly lowers his mask long enough for the reader to reach his or her own personal epiphany.  He mentions the possibility that he could lead the benighted souls of this forum to redemption, but also implied at the personal cost implied.  The conflict is now clear.  He has the power to deliver salvation, but is he willing to pay the cost.  It also becomes clear that the pattern of frequent denials is to convey the opposite to the discerning reader. For in a brilliant act of pyrotechnics, the author had created an elaborate play within a play, only to dissolve this insubstantial pageant when the reader is jolted to reality by the observation the "the lady doth protest too much, methinks."

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3025/2431218547_7fa7a62a85.jpg)
Now it is clear. Yes, this lady doth protest too much. Yes, it does take too much time to make repeat the same assertions time and time again in front of the unwashed  masses whose highest artistic aspirations can be met at the nearest McDonalds.  (This phrase also implies of the terrible burden it must be to properly educate the unwashed masses, and how fatiguing it must be-- we will return to that theme later.)

The Fall From Grace

Carefully analysis of the postings demonstrate James's incisive and compassionate understanding of the human condition.  Man has fallen from the state of Grace, and is living in a meaningless void where "time is out of joint".  In addition to the "You're Wrong" theme already discussed in the first edition of the Essential James3 , it should also be noted that much of the Author's canon has been devoted to the themes of other posters being "way off" or "out of their depth", as typified by the following examples.

Quote from: James on January 11, 2010, 08:42:01 AM
You're way off. All I can tell you is adjust your ears

Quote from: James on August 24, 2008, 02:49:57 PM
You're out of your depth on this im afraid, and it's quite transparent.

Quote from: James on June 14, 2010, 01:12:28 PM
you're completely off base.

Quote from: James on April 15, 2010, 10:06:01 AM
sorry bro but your perceptions like the one I mentioned  are just sooo off base ... nevermind me, they'll never be validated by anyone with a musical brain.

Quote from: James on July 30, 2010, 07:49:07 AM
you're assuming a lot,you're out of your depth,putting words in my mouth,being dismissive and projecting a whole lot on what was said here (to say the least, my goodness). I will never acknowledge your hollow conjecture, it carries no weight .

Quote from: James on December 13, 2010, 07:56:02 AM
You're so off the mark on all of this ...all I can say is give it time .

Quote from: James on January 18, 2011, 03:27:07 PM
you're out of your depth, uninformed .. & never make assumptions ..

Quote from: James on January 07, 2011, 08:12:51 AM
No you're totally off on that,

Quote from: James on October 05, 2009, 09:11:11 AM
No it's not like saying that at all. You're way off on this, grasping for straws now.

Contrary to popular opinion, there is nothing nihilistic about these posts.  Yes, someone can be "off base", "off the mark" or "out of their depth", but this implies that there IS a base, mark or depth to be attained if a pilgrim is willing to make the journey.  But to make that journey, the pilgrim must be willing to listen.⁴

Waking up to Reality-- The Call for Enlightenment

When asked if he were a Man or a God, the Buddha replied "I am awake."  Many of the descriptions of enlightenment in eastern literature use the metaphor of wakening from sleep in a traditional state of lowered consciousness.  Similary, the blow of a zen master's staff, although painful, is aimed to heal the recipient by awakening them to higher consciousness.  This theme is reflected in several, James's writings, with the following examples.

Quote from: James on January 01, 2010, 09:07:14 PM
Non sequitur my ass. Wake up.

Quote from: James on June 27, 2007, 02:45:49 PM
You must be dreaming....

Quote from: James on March 20, 2011, 05:21:31 AM
I was talking about the music, wake up please.

What is the state that the reader is to reach from these exhortations?  Nothing short of pure, in-the-moment reality, basking in the wholeness of being, liberated from the baggage of preconceptions, assumptions, and prejudice.  This return to reality is also a hallmark of James's mature prose style.

Quote from: James on September 03, 2008, 10:23:38 AM
. Get real.

Quote from: James on March 17, 2011, 02:03:41 PM
... Please get real.

Quote from: James on April 02, 2011, 01:52:59 PM
Let's be real here.

Quote from: James on March 21, 2011, 07:25:56 PM
Right .. considering you are a student and you volunteer i truly doubt you know much about the real world.

Quote from: James on June 26, 2010, 07:59:19 PM
.and if you live in the real world and absorb and take in all kinds of contemporary art and life. Please, feed those cliches and myths to someone else.

Clearly, we are to lead a life free from myths and cliches, but if only we are willing to cast off much of what we are.  But is is difficult to break free from the tyranny of habit.  It is for this reason, that James adopted the use of the sacred syllable "Pfff!" in his writings5.  Like the sacred syllable OM, the Pfff can immediate decontextualize its object, and force the reader to confront it directly with not intervening thought processing.  It becomes the thing itself-- no more, no less, as demonstrated below.

Quote from: James on March 04, 2011, 11:31:40 AM
pff slayer ..

Quote from: James on March 04, 2011, 10:27:27 AM
Zorn pffff ...

The sacred syllable Pfff maintains its ineffable status by appearing with a different number of 'f's in different contexts.  Also, it is no coincidence that Pfff has no vowels-- just like the name of the deity in the Hebraic and Old Testament traditions.  But combining elements of both Eastern and Western traditions, James has unified both in one bold stroke. The Pfff transcends languages, cultures, and civilizations.  It just is.

Quote from: James on February 05, 2009, 07:21:21 PM Except it's not 'you', it's just some more stuff you read elsewhere that's never your own. 'you' offer truly nothing once again and have no clue. just empty derived rhetoric that you paste. please, find yourself.

In summary, James is going to heroic lengths to lead us all to salvation, and to experience reality. He is pleading for all of us to find ourselves.  Is there any higher calling?


The Unbirthing of the Ego
Unfortunately, as part of the human condition, we create our own hells and purgatories, and are often the victims of our attachments and beliefs.   In order to enter the world of pure reality (also known as Utopia, or Jamesland, please see Chapter 48 of this work) it is necessary to break down the ego and re-enter the primal state.  This requires for someone to illustrate the flaws in our logic and belief systems.  Just as TS Elliot meant when he referred to the "sharp compassion of the healer's art", and the sudden blow of the Zen Masters staff, these blows and cuts are administered in a firm but loving manner to help the benighted ones see the error of their reasoning.  We are fortunate that James has devoted so much of his time and energy to point out the errors of our ways, and the inability of our logical and belief systems to appreciate high art.  It is a thankless task, apparently without end.

Quote from: James on February 26, 2010, 08:15:08 PM
No it's you that doesn't know a damn thing.

Quote from: James on November 17, 2008, 09:43:04 AM
you make no sense.

Quote from: James on June 18, 2008, 12:59:47 PM
sorry you dont make much sense, and it doesnt apply at all.

Quote from: James on January 05, 2009, 05:39:57 AM
You don't even know what you're talking about ... please stop pretending like you do. We see right through it.

Quote from: James
it's you that is worthless i'm afraid.

Quote from: James on April 21, 2009, 02:30:23 PM
what on earth are you babbling on about... this is ALL in your head i'm afraid.

Quote from: James on December 02, 2009, 02:34:10 PM
What a bunch of longwinded bs.

Quote from: James on July 23, 2010, 05:17:25 PM
Dude, with all due respect it's your ears and lack of focus that you come to this conclusion

Quote from: James on May 24, 2010, 02:01:49 PM
be careful not to contradict yourself with bullshit now ... t

Quote from: James on July 30, 2010, 06:16:21 AM
you (& others) here don't really have much of a perspective

Quote from: James on April 13, 2010, 02:53:34 PM
Oh you noticed ... stop contradicting yourself. df

Quote from: James on April 10, 2010, 11:08:44 AM
You have no idea what you're talking about...

Quote from: James on April 15, 2010, 09:08:44 AM
You're such a windbag ... and full of yourself rambling on and on and on, keep it on topic and get to the point sheesh! Stop it already.

Quote from: James on July 31, 2010, 08:04:10 AM
this is more of your own hollow conjecture ...

Quote from: James on March 26, 2009, 02:11:38 PM
All you're saying is nothing, just a bunch of blah...you haven't got the slightest clue.

Quote from: James on April 21, 2009, 03:14:03 PM
Your words are meaningless to me, just to let you know. I was speaking from experience btw, not conjecture (which covers about 99.9% of your posts).

Quote from: James on March 30, 2011, 06:07:12 PM
that would be an epic failure of cogency on your part.

Quote from: James on March 05, 2011, 05:50:10 AM
Hot air. You can't tell the difference between Ives, Bartók etc and the utter low level kiddie poop you have been posting, that's clear.

Quote from: James on March 20, 2011, 06:30:10 AM
You are confused...You're delusional to think that any of it is truly substantial.

Quote from: James on March 21, 2011, 03:29:59 PM
You are sooo confused because you simply can't hear or understand the differences! .... you have no clue bro. I've already explained myself numerous times in the simplest most straight forward manor and you refuse to THINK. You say some major confused bullshit  .. ...  You don't even know what things mean to begin with, you need everything 'defined' for you; there is no point even talking at all because you don't even have a basic understanding of things in general it seems.

Quote from: James on March 24, 2011, 09:24:14 AM
You sound like his 'little bitch', are you?  .. and I'm not being dismissive at all, ..

Quote from: James on March 05, 2011, 04:14:47 AM
another meaningless googled turd ...  coming from a slayer & twisted sister fan  ..

Quote from: James on February 05, 2009, 07:21:21 PMExcept it's not 'you', it's just some more stuff you read elsewhere that's never your own. 'you' offer truly nothing onceagain and have no clue. just empty derived rhetoric that you paste. please, find yourself.

Quote from: James on April 02, 2011, 02:49:27 AM
you truly don't know much and are in fact; the one that is "limited".

Quote from: James on January 13, 2011, 08:48:35 AM
... but don't you believe in quality control?

Editor's Note:  I'm proud to have been the lucky wretch to  received the preceding post. 

Quote from: James on April 01, 2011, 06:04:41 PM
your logic is greatly flawed my friend;

Quote from: James on March 19, 2011, 12:24:23 PM
All meaningless jabber, you have no clue. The fact that you want evidence tells me that not only are you confused & lost, but that you are also blind & deaf. Go find yourself. You know, you can listen to an assortment of music, yet still understand it's proper perspective with clarity.

Note the repetition of the "Find Yourself" theme in the previous example.   James' compassion for the unenlightened is both unmistakable and touching.

Quote from: James on March 17, 2011, 02:58:39 AM
Sorry you're not thinking deep enough... please get a grip.

In the following passage, James skillfully deflates a reader's "outer" self, and gently nudges him in a spiritual direction.

Quote from: James on March 17, 2011, 04:32:16 AM
And you're a musician? Christ ..

Quote from: James on March 03, 2011, 05:17:36 PM
Reading that ... you obviously have a VERY narrow understanding .... we're not referring to the 'soft pleasurable easy' stereotypes. Please think.

Quote from: James on September 04, 2009, 06:11:03 AM
Dude, I'm not obscuring or pretending anything, it's you who is pretending to be an authority. You're not.

Quote from: James on January 13, 2011, 03:59:10 PM
Well at least you have the self-awareness to size-up your scribbles (posts) for what they really are.  ;D

The Passion of St. James:

The preceding discussion makes it quite clear of the redemptive mission James has undertaken to help the rest of us improve our lives.  But the underlying tragedy is the cost to James himself, as it is clear that his bold interventions comes at a physical cost, as is illustrated in the following.

Quote from: James on April 05, 2008, 07:16:56 AM
I think your musical diet would quickly give me wind or worse. >:D

Quote from: James on May 11, 2009, 02:53:59 PM
? that trash makes me physically ill.

Quote from: James on February 16, 2009, 11:04:02 AM
ugh i'm going to be physically ill from listening to that trash. at least i know now to avoid it for the future.

Quote from: James on March 06, 2011, 04:21:17 AM
Physically ill from sampling all of this total garbage ... and why is it being posted even?

And most disturbingly--

Quote from: James on August 22, 2008, 09:24:46 AM
Well, I almost had an aneurysm trying to answer this one.

There is also the emotional cost and loneliness of being the lone voice crying in the wilderness. 

Quote from: James on March 04, 2011, 08:44:40 AM
Sad. Does anyone around here have a thought of their own? Or is it all just cross-referenced tidbit shit they've read elsewhere?

Clearly, the model for James's paradigm must be that of the Bodhisattva, a selfless entity that is prepared to endure the agonies and privations of countless rebirths until they can guide all sentient beings into Nirvana, no matter how long it takes, or how many creatures need to be led to salvation.  And James can be counted on to show the patience of a loving father as we still lag behind.

Quote from: James on March 17, 2011, 05:52:26 AM
I just have higher standards & expectations that's all. Enjoy your McDonalds, that's fine.

There is no greater evidence of James's compassion and dedication to this cause than his spirited efforts to spare us from the corrupting influences of film scores-- he has first posted on the topic back in 2008, and has continued his defense every since.  While the vow of the Bodhisattva reads like this:

QuoteBeings are numberless, I vow to awaken with them.

James has had the bravery and courage to redefine the vow for our generation.

Quote from: James on July 09, 2009, 02:42:10 PM
Condradicted my ass, people here just refuse to face the truth. .

Does he care or does he not?   For anyone with a heart, it is clear that he may care too much.

This research was conducted with generous grants from the Union of Film Music Composers and the McDonalds Corporation.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 "Mozart was not only overrated, but he didn't exist." -- Newman, The Illuminati and History of Film Scores , p 23.
2 "Mendelssohn had higher standards, and knew what real art music was, and not the insubstantial ephemera and popular crap found in works such as those by Stockhausen and Zappa" -- Sean, Mendelssohn- The First Serialst

^3. "Um, can't we talk for a minute about some of MY compositions?"-- Henning, The Essential James, 1st Edition

^4. Please consult Chapter 14, James and the Inner Ear, for a detailed analysis of how we can better appreciate art music through adjusting our ears.
5. "Earliest documentation of Pfff in usage has been attributed to neolithic societies in Modern day Turkey." Joseph Campbell, The Raspberry with a Thousand Faces.

This is insane!  :o

Quote from: MishaK on April 05, 2011, 07:19:02 AM
This is insane!  :o

No, brilliant. But the borderline between genius and insanity is very narrow.

I dig it.

jowcol is my new hero.

That was brilliant!

You know that 500 years from now, anthropologists and religious scholars are going to discover that post and get into vicious debates about the theological tenets of the Jamesian sect:

"The newly discovered Jowcol Exegesis clearly calls into question the existing paradigm of the Immaculate Record Collection and definitively undermines Boulezian hermeneutics..."
(Angry outbursts from the 11th Annual St. James Conference attendees:)
"You're out of your depth on this I'm afraid, and it's quite transparent!"
"Your words are meaningless to me, just to let you know!"
"Whatever dood!"
"Pfff!"
(Dead silence and then horrified shouts from the audience as the magnitude of what just happened sinks in:)
"He uttered the Sacred Syllable! Stone him!"
"Stone him, stone him!"

Quote from: James on April 05, 2011, 09:10:30 AM
When was the last time you have gotten laid? I'm assuming NEVER
Get a job.

A word to the wise: Part of the highest wisdom is being able to laugh at yourself. :) And if you don't get that, I challenge you to think deeply about it. ;)

tldr

Quote from: jochanaan on April 05, 2011, 01:23:50 PM
A word to the wise: Part of the highest wisdom is being able to laugh at yourself. :) And if you don't get that, I challenge you to think deeply about it. ;)

Jochanaan-- there is not need to worry about James' sense of humor and ability not to take things too seriously.  He is the epitome of good natured-ness, and always lightens his lessons with self-deprecating humour.   We have that documented by  the highest possible authority....

Quote from: James on September 01, 2008, 06:20:32 PM
Look at Mr. Serious. LIGHTEN UP!!!

Quote from: James on July 09, 2008, 07:49:21 PM
hahaha whatever....

Quote from: James
That was a joke stupid. Lighten up...

Quote from: James on July 06, 2010, 10:32:00 AM
i was just bustin' yer balls a bit, jokingly ...

Quote from: James on August 30, 2009, 03:13:25 PM
It's not exclusive to 'Jamesland'. lol

The canon is filled liberally sprinkled with lol's and hahaha's.   He truly understands that laughter is the best medicine.

Quote from: James on April 05, 2011, 09:10:30 AM
When was the last time you have gotten laid? I'm assuming NEVER
Get a job.

Excerpts from The Essential James, Revised Edition, (Stockhausen Press, 37 Zawinul Street, Utopia)


Chapter 37: Through a Brown Mirror Darkly-- The Scatalogical Imagery of James.



Editor's notes:  For those of you with weaker constitutions, you may wish to skip this chapter.  Nonetheless, it addresses fundamental aspects of life, and represents a significant portion of his body of work.

One of the hallmarks of a great artist is their ability to communicate a wide variety of ideas with a limited palette, and their mastery of the monochromatic scale.  Unlike Gershwin, however, James does not provide use with a Rhapsody in Blue.  Instead, he offers a Rhapsody in Brown, referring, of course to the endlessly inventive contexts in which he deploys scatological Imagery. Just as Ravel's insistent repetition of the drone note provides the narrative skeleton for Le Gibet, so do the endlessly fascinating variations on the theme the blossom from James's keyboard.

People:

One of his favorite devices is to characterize his readers using scatalogoical imagery.

Quote from: James on October 16, 2009, 07:16:44 AM
I don't think so... I think you're full of crap.

Quote from: James on February 05, 2009, 07:36:58 PM
You're completely full of crap basically

It is important to know that the author here addresses it at the metaphorical level.  Each of , in the course of our lives, accumulated mental  waste products-- subconscious biases, unsubstantiated assumptions, etc.  But the point James is trying to make is that the condition is not irreversible-- that we are merely a spiritual enema away from living authentic existence.

Communications:
In today's media-saturated environment, communication is becoming overloaded and redundant, where more channels does not mean more content, but we paradoxically live in a time where we are saturated with words and starved for meaningful ideas.  With the precision scalpel of his wit, James uses Scatology to perform a compelling autopsy of today's media.

Quote from: James on February 12, 2008, 10:44:36 AM
er, lots of bullshit floating around in this thread

Quote from: James on December 23, 2008, 03:42:22 PM
man, you shovel lots of poop that's for sure...none of it really amounting to anything intelligent or insightful.

Quote from: James on June 18, 2008, 12:59:47 PM
sorry you dont make much sense, and it doesnt apply at all. same goes for the shit floating in this thread that i addressed a few posts up. it's the sort-of of cluelessness not even worth wasting the time on actually, if it weren't for the finger exercise.  :)

Quote from: James on June 18, 2008, 12:37:15 PM
man, you spend wayyyyy too much time shoveling shit...

Quote from: James on March 11, 2011, 03:41:47 PM
You know, lots of shit is mentioned in "books" Doesn't make it scripture/gospel, right?

Quote from: James on March 05, 2011, 05:50:10 AM
Hot air. You can't tell the difference between Ives, Bartók etc and the utter low level kiddie poop you have been posting, that's clear.

Quote from: James on February 25, 2011, 06:27:01 PM
Amazing? you have got to be fucking kidding... they're pure bullshit. They sound like something a retarded chimp would have done.

Quote from: James on March 05, 2011, 04:14:47 AM
another meaningless googled turd ... 

Taken together, this a moving threnody bemoaning the death of meaningful communications in today's media age-- all the more haunting by the deliberately restricted vocabulary.

Ideas and the Intellect:
James facile use of these images is not merely limited to the concrete, since they also form a springboard to the realm of ideas.  In this context, excrement takes on the nature of intellectual defilements that prevent the reader from truly experiencing reality.

Quote from: James on August 03, 2008, 12:04:29 PM
More horseshit mythology. Sad how folks rather focus on that stuff, as opposed to dealing with his music on it's own terms.

Quote from: James on March 04, 2011, 08:44:40 AM
Sad. Does anyone around here have a thought of their own? Or is it all just cross-referenced tidbit shit they've read elsewhere?

Quote from: James on May 24, 2010, 02:01:49 PM
be careful not to contradict yourself with bullshit now ...

Quote from: James on December 22, 2008, 07:44:21 PM
...this is just some myth type shit you've formulated in your own brain i'm afraid...

In other cases, it can capture a direct experience, completely divorced from any context,  that can  barely be captured in words.

Quote from: James on December 21, 2008, 10:03:09 PM
that's bs of course...

Quote from: James on December 13, 2008, 03:41:59 PM
Poop.

In its most profound applications, excrement is used to capture uncontrollable forces of nature, and even the mysteries of creation.

Quote from: James on February 25, 2011, 06:44:13 PM
Nah ... it's just random bullshit.

Quote from: James
Holy shit buddy, u just can't let go ...

Freudian Analysis
It is important to remember that excrement in James' posts is not an end in itself, but symbolic of the journey and discovery that he wishes impart to his fellow man.  The brown hued lens through which he views our intellectual landscape it not an end-state, but rather a call to liberation.  He rails against the anal-compulsive/anal-sadistic zeitgeist in which the rest of us are trapped:

Quote from: James on June 14, 2010, 02:01:57 PM
No need to get uber-anal here

Quote from: James9
Hey ... this is an asshole remark.

James frequently reaches out to those who may be trapped in the Freudian Anal Retentive stage, exorting them to take their libidos to the  next step.  His personal concern in the emotional and physical development of fellow forum members is often under appreciated.

Quote from: James on April 05, 2011, 09:10:30 AM
When was the last time you have gotten laid? I'm assuming NEVER

Quote from: James on March 31, 2010, 10:49:00 AM
Do us all a favour? Get a woman and get laid.

Quote from: James on January 25, 2010, 10:21:51 AM
Dude, I've been reading your comments lately ... do you ever get laid?

Quote from: James on March 21, 2011, 07:06:05 PM
You definitely need to get laid, get a job and get a life. What do you do all day, i wonder.

Clearly, even though James is willing to take us  the gutter to enlighten us, his ultimate goal is no less that mature adult human consciousness.  Portnoy, however, has posed a thesis that the frequent, urgent, insistent  exhortations to "get a grip" may be referring to some midpoint between the childhood  and the full sexual union consummated in adulthood.   The details are left to the reader's imagination.

Quote from: James on March 17, 2011, 02:58:39 AM
please get a grip.

Quote from: James on December 05, 2009, 07:24:14 PM
Get a grip please.

Quote from: James on January 02, 2010, 09:44:58 AM
Whoaa careful with that loose talk, get a grip please.

Quote from: James on July 09, 2008, 11:09:58 AM
get a grip.

Quote from: James on September 21, 2008, 09:40:08 PM
er..right. get a grip.

The Metaphor Behind the Metaphor
James's mastery of the scatological metaphor and imagery is unparalleled.  Still, his choice to employ this  material has engendered some controversy in the community.  Some have expressed that this focus is not consistent with high standards and great art-- but it must also be granted that Dante and Chaucer were not coy about using execrement to further their artistic goals.

Graziosos' thesis was that the consistent use of this material was a metaphor for our mass-produced consumer culture, where each faddish pseudo-composer would be served up to a brainwashed populace with the same sterile packaging and slick marketing campaigns as a cholesterol-laden sandwich from McDonalds, and will be soon be consumed, excreted, and left on the rubbish heap of history with little fanfare.   This IS the Ephemera that he bravely assails in his posts.

One could also see this as an extension of the Yeatsian metaphor in Byzantium, where lasting artworks of changeless metal are juxtaposed against the "mire and complexity of human veins".-- since clearly, no edifice built from excrement will last.

However, the most likely explanation can be found in one of the perennial Jamesian themes of the ongoing search for liberation and enlightenment.  Selection of a scatological metaphor will provide something that even the lowest common denominator can identify with.  In addition, he is asking for everyone to identify with the artist within, since the act of defecation is a creative act we ALL share, but too many of us are willing to pull the flush lever without taking time to look and revel in the mysteries of creation.

Quote from: Grazioso on April 02, 2011, 02:41:28 PM
...OP wants to hear and learn about 20th-century music...

NOTICE:

THE OP HAS LEFT THE BUILDING!

& in his/her absence, this thread has morphed into something completely different from what s/he probably expected :o ...

Quote from: James on April 05, 2011, 06:23:41 PM
These ramblings are proof that the internet is the new crack cocaine for nerds & losers everywhere.

Beware folks, you don't want to become like this.

While it is a clear cut case of trolling; it's pretty funny.

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Anybody else secretly love Mantovani? (NOT Bruno)

What's this all about? Why am I here? Help, I think I may be addicted to INTERNET BS! (As in BodditSalivation)

I'm surprised no one has asked James yet when was the last time he was laid.

Or asked him why he doesn't get a job.

Fair's fair.

(I can't imagine him saying, "Whatever, shaddup" to a girl and getting laid for it. Or saying "what on earth are you blabbing on about" in a job interview and getting the job. But then, I've never dated the kind of girl who would go for that kind of abuse. Or tried out for a job with that kind of company....)

((And, just to make this post legit (!), I recommend the Source three CD set. A fine collection of different stuff from a fine time in American new music.))

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Quote from: mjwal on April 09, 2011, 10:38:25 AM
dispel anally fixated spirits of sub-musical criticism! *

ROTFLMAO!!


Very well put.  Although the word "purge" may fit even better than dispel, "sub-musical criticism" definitely hit's the bulls eye.  If not "sub-sub-musical criticism".


The essays were heavily inspired by the postmodernism generator
http://www.elsewhere.org/pomo/ (http://www.elsewhere.org/pomo/)


and also the psuedospeak of the CS Computer Paper generator, which has pioneered the concept of a "content-free grammar", and managed to get a generated paper of gobbledygook into a conference.

http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/scigen/

Quote from: some guy on April 09, 2011, 01:13:51 PM
I'm surprised no one has asked XXXX  yet when was the last time he was laid.

Or asked him why he doesn't get a job.

Whoa dude.  I don't think it was meant in that context, and I'd like to speak up in his  defense.  Although I've been on this forum for a couple years now and have met a lot of kind and bright people, this was the first time that anyone ever expressed a personal interest in my sex life and my financial well being, and I was deeply touched.   

A good Samaritan often goes unnoticed in a crowd.    The hand that appears before you may not be a clenched fist but rather a helping hand instead.

(http://c.universalscraps.com/files/en/hello.kitty/hello_kitty_004.gif)

Here are 20 works I think would be good introductions to 20th Century music (in no particular order):

1. Stravinsky: Petrushka
2. Ravel: Piano Concerto in G
3. Janacek: Sinfonietta
4. Bartok: The Miraculous Mandarin
5. Berg: Violin Concerto
6. Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 5
7. Ligeti: Atmospheres
8. Sibelius: Symphony No. 7
9. Schoenberg: Variations for Orchestra
10. Villa-Lobos: Bachianas Brasileiras No. 3
11. Prokofiev: Scythian Suite
12. Debussy: Images for Orchestra
13. Shostakovich: Symphony No. 10
14. Falla: Three-Corned Hat
15. Varese: Ameriques
16. Dutilleux: Metaboles
17. Nielsen: Symphony No. 5
18. Revueltas: Sensemaya
19. Ives: Symphony No. 3 "The Camp Meeting"
20. Part: Cantus in Memoriam of Benjamin Britten

Some of these choices may seem a bit of stretch for a newcomer to the 20th Century as some of the works have a high amount of dissonance, but I think if the newcomer has an open-mind than he/she will find much to enjoy about the music. The 20th Century is my favorite era for classical music because there's so much variety to the music from the 12-tone works of the Second Viennese School to the Impressionism of Debussy and Ravel to the Neoclassicism of Stravinsky and Hindemith to the total serialism of Boulez, and so on. There's so much to explore, but, as I said, a person needs to keep an open-mind about a lot of this music as it's so far removed from the sounds that came from the previous centuries.

Quote from: mjwal on April 09, 2011, 10:38:25 AM
I WANT a POISONOUS GREEN bracelet. Will it help me to access INSTANT expellant vitriol? I NEED this post-modern shamanistic jujube bracelet to raise my fallen consciousness and dispel anally fixated spirits of sub-musical criticism! *

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Quote from: Grazioso on April 10, 2011, 11:55:01 AM
Pff Productions

Congratulations, I had cardiac arrest due to explosive laugh attack. Now I'm dead, but it was totally worth it.

Quote from: Mirror Image on April 10, 2011, 11:09:34 AM
Here are 20 works I think would be good introductions to 20th Century music (in no particular order):

[excellent list snipped]

Seconded. That's an excellent list. If Mr. Weekly is still around, I hope he sees it and writes it down.

Quote from: Alberich on April 11, 2011, 01:23:55 AM
Congratulations, I had cardiac arrest due to explosive laugh attack. Now I'm dead, but it was totally worth it.

Personally, I am saddened and angered that the most private and personal act of Decontextualization his been crassly exploited for commercial gain.  Grazioso, I must warn you, this is the start on the road to Hell.  You'll know when you get there, it is  clearly marked by the Golden Arches....

(http://lbtoronto.typepad.com/lbto/images/ronaldmchummer.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_KgIqQvYUs3I/TCHqfRGniMI/AAAAAAAAYyE/flI6jp4Indw/s400/mcdonalds3.jpg)
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And, waiting for you in the 9th circle is none other than the dark one himself.
(http://jaysolomon.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/ronald-mcdonald.jpg)

Alas! Is the road to Hell paved with sesame seed buns? . . .

Quote from: Velimir on April 11, 2011, 02:02:06 AM
Seconded. That's an excellent list. If Mr. Weekly is still around, I hope he sees it and writes it down.

Agreed, that was a strong list, but I saw value in every list that was posted. Just as a quick thought-- there have been a LOT of great suggestions-- at some point compiling them may be worth while. 

One thing that may help is to borrow the approach from a Thai or Chinese menu and mark which ones may be the "spiciest" and may not be the best starting place for a newbie.   The goal , of course, would be to get someone to sample the whole menu of 20th century music, but frightening them early on may create the wrong result.

It also struck me that, although in this thread it looks like we were primarily aiming at people who were comfortable with the romantic period, the recommendations would likely change based on the profile of the person-- for example, for someone coming from Baroque, I'd suggest Dumbarton Oaks or the Octet by Stravinsky, and Prokofiev's Classical Symphony.  For someone coming from the Romantic, I'd probably suggest the Firebird and Romeo and Juliet.  If the person is more form a rock or prog background, it would probably be the Rite of Spring and Scythian Suite.  The goal should be to not take them out of their comfort zone at first, so there is more likelihood they'd want to keep exploring.   

James mentioned Respighi's Rome Trilogy, and that, particularly the Pines of Rome, is a favorite recommendation of  mine for getting people into 20th century music.  I'd also suggest Hanson's 2nd-- it has a little more edge and muscle than a lot of the true romantic period works, but is not a major jump.

With the risk of stepping out once again on the killing floor, I've always thought that the film Fantasia 2000 was not a bad way to try to convert people to 20th century music, as it devoted more space to 20th century pieces than I would suspect, and if someone comes out from watching that wanting to know more about Respighi, Shostakovitch, Stravinsky, Dukas, or Gershwin, I'd consider it a success.

Quote from: Apollon on April 11, 2011, 05:24:35 AM
Alas! Is the road to Hell paved with sesame seed buns? . . .

Worse yet, could this be heaven?

(http://stylefrizz.com/img/victorias-secret-mcdonalds.jpg)

Hold the lettuce has a new resonance.

Quote from: James on April 05, 2011, 06:23:41 PM
These ramblings are proof that the internet is the new crack cocaine for nerds & losers everywhere.

Beware folks, you don't want to become like this.

Pfffff whatever dood.

Quote from: Velimir on April 11, 2011, 02:02:06 AM
Seconded. That's an excellent list. If Mr. Weekly is still around, I hope he sees it and writes it down.

Thank you, Velimir. I hope this member sees this list as well. :)

Quote from: Apollon on April 11, 2011, 05:41:04 AM
Hold the lettuce has a new resonance.

You're in way out of your depth, and it's quite transparent. "Hold the Lettuce" was from "Have it your way", which was a Burger King commercial, not a McDonald's Commercial. 

"I'm Lovin it", however, could have a whole new meaning, disturbing on many levels, as I know can't  get the image of Ronald wearing Victoria's Secret products out of my head.  This is much more disturbing than the Rocky Horror Picture Show. . 

I like those lists.

Let me see:
chamber: Bartok's string quartet #5
orchestral: Shostakovich's 5th symphony
piano: Debussy' preludes

The other genres I'm just not keen enough on.

Quote from: jowcol on April 11, 2011, 08:21:38 AM
You're in way out of your depth, and it's quite transparent. "Hold the Lettuce" was from "Have it your way", which was a Burger King commercial, not a McDonald's Commercial.

Zowie, I never knew Burger King and McDonalds were distinct entities . . . I am but a tadpole in these waters.

I never know how to tailor lists like this to people; the one thing I've noticed is that people from a rock background often take immediately to Schnittke and Ligeti. Don't ask me why. :-)

Quote from: Apollon on April 11, 2011, 09:56:14 AM
Zowie, I never knew Burger King and McDonalds were distinct entities . . . I am but a tadpole in these waters.

"Whoaa careful with that loose talk, get a grip please." You're going to lead sinners to the wrong burger joint, and you don't want that on your conscience!

Quote from: Mirror Image on April 10, 2011, 11:09:34 AM
Here are 20 works I think would be good introductions to 20th Century music (in no particular order):

My only reservation is that, afaik, only two of those composers are still alive. I'd perhaps include another relatively popular composer or two who was active in the latter part of the 20th century through today. Maybe someone like Rautavaara or Daugherty, who are pretty accessible. At the least, a few more pieces from the last few decades of the century.

Quote from: jowcol on April 11, 2011, 05:15:02 AM
Personally, I am saddened and angered that the most private and personal act of Decontextualization his been crassly exploited for commercial gain.  Grazioso, I must warn you, this is the start on the road to Hell.  You'll know when you get there, it is  clearly marked by the Golden Arches....

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Quote from: Grazioso on April 11, 2011, 11:02:48 AM
My only reservation is that, afaik, only two of those composers are still alive. I'd perhaps include another relatively popular composer or two who was active in the latter part of the 20th century through today. Maybe someone like Rautavaara or Daugherty, who are pretty accessible. At the least, a few more pieces from the last few decades of the century.

I did recommend Sensemaya by Revueltas, but I wouldn't recommend Daugherty as I don't care much for his music. I'm simiply not going to recommend a newcomer to the 20th Century music I do not enjoy and this could be said about anything I recommend to someone else. As for two composers being alive in my list, well this never occurred to me until you mentioned it, the reason I never thought about it is because this factor is less important to me and I'm sure the initial poster doesn't care whether the composer is alive or dead as this has nothing to do with the music.

Quote from: Mirror Image on April 11, 2011, 11:50:41 AM
I did recommend Sensemaya by Revueltas, but I wouldn't recommend Daugherty as I don't care much for his music. I'm simiply not going to recommend a newcomer to the 20th Century music I do not enjoy and this could be said about anything I recommend to someone else. As for two composers being alive in my list, well this never occurred to me until you mentioned it, the reason I never thought about it is because this factor is less important to me and I'm sure the initial poster doesn't care whether the composer is alive or dead as this has nothing to do with the music.

I'd have no problems recommending--better, suggesting--works I don't personally care for, provided they are somehow representative of the period.

My point wasn't to focus on a composer being alive, but rather being active, thereby illustrating that the trends and developments of 20th century classical music are ongoing and not isolated to those 100 years. Plus, a newcomer might be excited to follow the ongoing works of a living composer.

Quote from: Grazioso on April 11, 2011, 12:06:01 PM
I'd have no problems recommending--better, suggesting--works I don't personally care for, provided they are somehow representative of the period.

My point wasn't to focus on a composer being alive, but rather being active, thereby illustrating that the trends and developments of 20th century classical music are ongoing and not isolated to those 100 years. Plus, a newcomer might be excited to follow the ongoing works of a living composer.

I would have suggested some living composers, but alas, there aren't many whose music I whole-heartedly love. I guess I could have suggested a John Adams work or a MacMillan piece, but I'm happy with the list I recommended. I definitely won't be losing any sleep worrying about whether I suggested music that I think didn't belong on my list.

Quote from: Leon on April 11, 2011, 12:15:30 PM
Thing is, MI actually responded to the OP and made a very good post with some first rate 20th century music suggestions - but I went back and looked and did not find anything from you suggesting any composers, alive or otherwise, besides a few posts talking about film music.

Thanks Leon. I'm not mad at Grazioso, who would be over something this stupid anyway, right? but I just found it odd that he/she thought my list should include more living composers when the reality is there aren't many living composers whose music that I've heard that I've enjoyed. Recommendations about music are always going to be different from one listener to the next, there may very well be occasional overlap, but I simply gave a list of what I consider to be great 20th Century works that are worth listening to and, in turn, I can only hope this would spark an interest to the new listener and they will want to explore more.

Quote from: Leon on April 11, 2011, 12:15:30 PM
Thing is, MI actually responded to the OP and made a very good post with some first rate 20th century music suggestions - but I went back and looked and did not find anything from you suggesting any composers, alive or otherwise, besides a few posts talking about film music.

My goal was obviously not to criticize but to suggest an alternative way of looking at the issue. A few living composers I could suggest, based on personal experience or reputation, that cover different styles and nationalities:

Adams
Carter
Coates
Daugherty
Glass
Golijov
Henze
MacMillan
Rautavaara
Rorem
Saariaho
Turnage

But looking back at the OP, I see he requests just five choices, and I know from other discussions that accessibility is a concern for him:

Quote from: ClassicalWeekly on March 29, 2011, 04:51:30 PM
So along those lines, can someone give me a "top 5" classical music works of the 20th century -- minus Adagio for Strings and minus the Rachmaninoff Piano Concertos?

In which case, I'd feel to duty bound to go with a few old yet influential and popular--and I believe relatively accessible--warhorses like:

La Mer
The Planets
Rite of Spring
Berg violin concerto
Lontano or Atmospheres

Hopefully these would give some inkling of the diversity of 20th-century musical thought while also exposing him to some iconic works.

Quote from: Apollon on April 11, 2011, 09:56:14 AM
Zowie, I never knew Burger King and McDonalds were distinct entities . . . I am but a tadpole in these waters.

Surveillance Tapes Contradict Henning Testimony

BOSTON:  Recently discovered surveillance tapes from a local fast food eatery have shed a great deal of suspicion on resident composer Karl Henning's denials of eating fast food.

According to Detective Gurn, of the Boston Metropolitan Police Department: "We have found tapes going back as early as 1973 showing Henning and an unidentified colleague entering a Burger King with the express interest of getting a Cholesterol fix.  Not only that,but has you can see, his fashion sense was deplorable. "

Dr. Cato, Biographer of Mr. Henning says " This has caused me to completely re-evaluate all of my work to date.  It's hard to determine how much of his work was impacted by this diet, and I now need to start examining his code for subliminal references to Burger King jingles."

http://www.youtube.com/v/Rkg_XojVRcs

I'm lovin' it!

QuoteSometimes a shake while I'm waiting for my train. But, truly, I never eat anything from McDonald's!

Quote from: jowcol on April 14, 2011, 02:55:44 AM
Surveillance Tapes Contradict Henning Testimony

BOSTON:  Recently discovered surveillance tapes from a local fast food eatery have shed a great deal of suspicion on resident composer Karl Henning's denials of eating fast food.

Orchestras in Shock as Cholesterol Karl Flees to Baltimore

BALTIMORE (Reuters): It has been confirmed that the notorious fast-food-eating composer Karl Henning, dubbed Cholesterol Karl, has been taken in for questioning by Baltimore police. The Baltimore Morning Evening has obtained exclusive interrogation footage of Henning, here disguised as one "Jerry Jempson." Detectives said that "Jempson's" collar and references to fiddles gave him away as the real Karl Henning.


http://www.youtube.com/v/rU8YFn7O2Hk

Quote from: Apollon on April 14, 2011, 04:42:10 AM

Pffff!  Dusty old quotes.

Pffff!  Henning.

Henning will be unveiling his masterpiece soon... an opera... Love and Death in the Time of Cholesterol. ;)

Quote from: haydnfan on April 14, 2011, 05:16:50 AM
Henning will be unveiling his masterpiece soon... an opera... Love and Death in the Time of Cholesterol. ;)

The sequel to One Hundred Years of Soda.

Quote from: Grazioso on April 14, 2011, 05:21:43 AM
The sequel to One Hundred Years of Soda.

I'm particularly interested in Henning's vow to Super-Size Brian's Gothic Symphony, with a couple of McFugues on the side.

Henning: The Splenda Years

Quote from: Apollon on April 14, 2011, 08:44:56 AM
Henning: The Splenda Years

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/05/01/article-1175729-04C3EBBD000005DC-741_468x363.jpg)

The lead soprano in the Met's 2011 production of Henning: The Splenda Years after seeing the score for the first time.

That lady from Third Rock from the Sun has let herself go...

Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on April 14, 2011, 10:41:20 AM
That lady from Third Rock from the Sun has let herself go...

That's actually Kirstie Alley of Cheers, Star Trek II, etc.

(http://home.comcast.net/~matchgame/3x5pictures/KirstieAlley2.jpg)

Quote from: Grazioso on April 14, 2011, 10:51:16 AM
That's actually Kirstie Alley of Cheers, Star Trek II, etc.

Noooo!

She was so slim (and her ears were so pointy) in The Wrath of Khan . . . .

Quote from: Apollon on April 14, 2011, 10:55:01 AM
Noooo!

She was so slim (and her ears were so pointy) in The Wrath of Khan . . . .

Hmmm...was the change the result of a purely "accidental" transporter malfunction, as Scotty insisted, or was it actually a mean practical joke?

(http://tu.trekunited.com/birthdays/doohan1.jpg)

Quote from: Leon on April 14, 2011, 11:15:36 AM
Since we are about to finish the complete DVD boxset of Seinfeld my wife and I were looking for the next thing to get, and we thought of the original Star Trek  - but, boy, is it expensive for just three seasons.

Oof! Sure is.

Quote from: Leon on April 14, 2011, 11:15:36 AM
Since we are about to finish the complete DVD boxset of Seinfeld my wife and I were looking for the next thing to get, and we thought of the original Star Trek  - but, boy, is it expensive for just three seasons.

::)

I also would say there is a lot of stuff in there that makes me cringe.  Cutting edge for its time and important for its influence, but didn't age well, I'd say.  The most interesting part is the tendency of Kirk to fall in love with women whose costumes had to be taped on. 

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/__9PCmBrOEMA/TA70CvFNh5I/AAAAAAAACfs/G9SeW3Iv_x0/s1600/Android_duplicator_controls.jpg)
I'm not sure your wife would enjoy it as much as you would.   0:)

That would actually put my wife and mom-in-law in stitches, so, yes, they'd enjoy it as much as I.

Here are my top 5

Luciano Berio: Sinfonia
Karlheinz Stockhausen: Gruppen
Iannis Xenakis: Metastasis
Georg Friedrich Haas: In Vain
György Ligeti: Atmospheres

Cheers!

By coincidence, I am contemplating exploring some 20th c. symphonists I have not yet heard (with two exceptions):

Rubbra (first of the afore-mentioned exceptions)
Pettersson (now the CPO cycle is done; will supplement with Segerstam)
Norgard (the 3rd)
Nystrom (Espressiva; possible the cello concerto too)

Rangstrom cycle (bit iffy on this one)
Schnittke cycle (even more iffy about this, having been disappointed by 1-4)

Only problem is, I've put myself on a budget, and have no idea when I'll be in the black!

Regarding Rubbra, I had the Lyrita disc of 3 & 4 and was not impressed. The construction was capable but the development seemed simple-minded. But some say the cycle doesn't really get good until 5, and the Hickox samples sound impressive.

Quote from: eyeresist on April 14, 2011, 05:54:18 PMRegarding Rubbra, I had the Lyrita disc of 3 & 4 and was not impressed. The construction was capable but the development seemed simple-minded. But some say the cycle doesn't really get good until 5, and the Hickox samples sound impressive.

Rubbra is my favorite 20th Century English symphonist next to RVW. Rubbra's music is expressive and lyrical. I have not the Lyrita recordings, so I can't make any comparisons, but Hickox's set is superb. One of my most treasures box sets.

Re: Pettersson

I would say Pettersson is a composer worth getting to know. I'm not impressed with all of his symphonies as I think some of them just ramble on and on with no meaning or purpose, but his 6th, 7th, and 8th are his masterpieces. They are definitely worth hearing.

Quote from: eyeresist on April 14, 2011, 05:54:18 PM
Regarding Rubbra, I had the Lyrita disc of 3 & 4 and was not impressed. The construction was capable but the development seemed simple-minded. But some say the cycle doesn't really get good until 5, and the Hickox samples sound impressive.

His cycle is quite impressive from the first couple, so I suspect that you just don't connect with his style. While his writing improved steadily during No.2-6 or so, his core essence did not change. Rubbra was deeply intelligent and his symphonism well-considered, but there is a transcendent quality in his music which tends not to be achieved through struggle.

Re. Pettersson it may be better to buy the Segerstam discs first and then see if you are left wanting more. He is an expert craftsman, but the lack of melody and big tunes after the 8th can leave listeners frustrated.

You really do need the Nørgård, though.

Quote from: Leon on April 14, 2011, 11:15:36 AM
Since we are about to finish the complete DVD boxset of Seinfeld my wife and I were looking for the next thing to get, and we thought of the original Star Trek  - but, boy, is it expensive for just three seasons.

::)

Some excellent SF alternatives that may be more reasonably priced: Firefly, Babylon 5, Farscape.

Quote from: eyeresist on April 14, 2011, 05:54:18 PM
By coincidence, I am contemplating exploring some 20th c. symphonists I have not yet heard (with two exceptions):

Rubbra (first of the afore-mentioned exceptions)
Pettersson (now the CPO cycle is done; will supplement with Segerstam)
Norgard (the 3rd)
Nystrom (Espressiva; possible the cello concerto too)

Rangstrom cycle (bit iffy on this one)
Schnittke cycle (even more iffy about this, having been disappointed by 1-4)

Only problem is, I've put myself on a budget, and have no idea when I'll be in the black!

Regarding Rubbra, I had the Lyrita disc of 3 & 4 and was not impressed. The construction was capable but the development seemed simple-minded. But some say the cycle doesn't really get good until 5, and the Hickox samples sound impressive.

The funny thing is, Rubbra is know for the seemingly inevitable logic of his developments.

I second Lethe on Pettersson. A very tough nut to crack, but definitely worth attempting, particularly the masterpieces 7 & 8. And for those, do try the Segerstam discs first: to my ears they're better performances than the CPO alternatives.

Norgard 3: a 20th century symphony masterpiece that fuses avant-garde techniques with melodicism, high drama, and a glowing sense of the spiritual.

Haven't heard Nystrom yet :(

Rangstrom: some good stuff if you like stormy late Romanticism. Somewhat akin to Atterberg.

Schnittke: have the BIS set but haven't heard it all, so I can't comment.

Quote from: eyeresist on April 14, 2011, 05:54:18 PM
By coincidence, I am contemplating exploring some 20th c. symphonists I have not yet heard (with two exceptions):

Rubbra (first of the afore-mentioned exceptions)
Pettersson (now the CPO cycle is done; will supplement with Segerstam)
Norgard (the 3rd)
Nystrom (Espressiva; possible the cello concerto too)

Rangstrom cycle (bit iffy on this one)
Schnittke cycle (even more iffy about this, having been disappointed by 1-4)

Only problem is, I've put myself on a budget, and have no idea when I'll be in the black!

Regarding Rubbra, I had the Lyrita disc of 3 & 4 and was not impressed. The construction was capable but the development seemed simple-minded. But some say the cycle doesn't really get good until 5, and the Hickox samples sound impressive.

Rubbra's 4th is  my very favorite of his symphonies, but it is definitely leans more towards the development of a single theme rather than anything like sonata form with contrasting themes.  If you listen to that in mind, you may enjoy it more.   Also, you may wish to visit the Chandos/Hickox discs.  Those were the ones I started with, and that 4th grabbed me.  As Rob Barnett reviewed it:

QuoteIf ever there was a generator and channel of light it is Rubbra's Fourth Symphony. It is highly Sibelian; both En Saga and the Fifth Symphony leap to mind. There are some glorious gear-shifts as well as one of the crowning climaxes of British music at 8.33. Hickox's is a very communicative performance with a persuasive and surprisingly Iberian sway (11.15). He conveys all the tension and release of a late Tchaikovsky symphony. Time and again Rubbra twists the emotional cortex although in the Intermezzo he is light in character, generally Sibelian but with a staggeringly Elgarian recollection at 4.34. Hickox adroitly catches the barely contained excitement of the finale: assertive, heroic yet wraith-like. Amid recollections of Bruckner 4 and 8 the heroic brass leap, surge and rear up in splendour. The rough, rolling, all-conquering horns (3.02) cannot help but recall Sibelius 5. The strings cut benevolent swathes through the canvas and unite in a majestic peak of ecstasy at 4.10. A 20th century masterwork.

On Chandos, the 4th is paired with the 10th and 11th, which have not grabbed me yet, but I may not be ready.

Quote from: ClassicalWeekly on March 29, 2011, 04:51:30 PM
I run a classical music website where I post suggested works each week and I've hit a bit of a roadblock and could use some help.  I love classical music but I'm really not too experienced with anything post-1900 (other than Puccini and of course Adagio for Strings).  Most of the works I've posted on my site (if not all) are pre-1900 and in order to expand what I offer, I think I need to add some post-1900 classical music.

So along those lines, can someone give me a "top 5" classical music works of the 20th century -- minus Adagio for Strings and minus the Rachmaninoff Piano Concertos?

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated -- and hey, I may even find something I like!

Thanks!

Gabriel Fauré was born in 1840 but lived to 1924. I consider him a 20th century composer. Debussy was born in 1862, Ravel in 1874. There are lots of classical composers who were born in the 19th century that composed what is now considered 20th century music. You can't go wrong with any of the following composers for piano music: Fauré, Ravel, Debussy, Chabrier, Suk, Martinu, Syzmanowski, Satie, Prokofiev, Stravinsky, Bartok, Frank Martin, Déodat de Severac, Scriabin, Rachmaninoff, Albeniz, de Falla, Granados, Nielsen and Mussorgsky. Most of these composers also wrote orchestral works, incidental music and tone poems (lots of Sibelius). Forgot Joaquin Rodrigo. Some symphonies to explore: Sibelius, Strauss, Roussel, Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Milhaud, Honegger, Rachmaninoff, Martinu, Ives, Syzmanowski, Albéric Magnard, Lalo and K. A. Hartmann. Chamber music: Debussy, Ravel, Fauré, Bartok, Prokofiev, Stravinsky, Poulenc, Milhaud. Do some research and you're bound to make some wonderful discoveries on your own.