GMG Classical Music Forum

Quote from: James on May 31, 2007, 05:11:32 AM
what are some of your absolute fave jazz recordings...

thelonious monk: big band & quartet in concert
duke ellington: ellington suites
charlie parker: washington concerts
miles davis: nefertiti
wynton marsalis: live at blues alley
ornette coleman: the shape of jazz to come
john coltrane: first meditations for quartet

8)

Quote from: toledobass on May 31, 2007, 09:35:58 AM
Should be no surprise:

(http://www.tomajazz.com/musicos/miles/davis_plugged_nickel.jpg)

and

(http://www9.yatego.com/images/42f72d5bd82d40.0/Coltrane,_John__Live_At_The_Halfnote.jpg)

love this one too:

(http://tralfaz-archives.com/coverart/P/Peterson/peterson_nightf.jpg)

most everything by the Jazz Messengers too.

SO much to list,

Allan

Quote from: bhodges on June 01, 2007, 09:04:29 AM

Nicholas Payton: Sonic Trance
(http://www.louisianamusicfactory.com/images/product/3448.jpg)

--Bruce

Quote from: Bonehelm on June 03, 2007, 06:05:19 PM
Dave Brubeck - Take five
Dave Brubeck - When you wish upon a star (yes the disney theme song)

Quote from: James on April 05, 2010, 11:51:32 AM
Miles' favorite album Jack Johnson, it's a desert-island disc for me, along with Tony William's Lifetime Believe It.

Quote from: Bogey on May 02, 2010, 01:12:11 PM
Disc 2:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AFRKABNZL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

One could lose their mind trying to complete Ellington and the different pressings.  On the other hand, could be kind of fun.

Quote from: George on May 03, 2010, 09:09:48 PM
One of my favorite album covers!  :)

Quote from: Bogey on May 07, 2010, 06:24:57 PM
Purchases today:

For me, the older edition won out as it had more seperation of the instruments (sounded like what I expect "stereo" to sound like) and lacked an "umph" that did little for me in the Gelder edition.

Quote from: KevinP on May 07, 2010, 06:36:50 PM
Hate to say it, but those Gelder BNs are absolutely horrible.

On the other hand, everything you just bought except the OOP one has been remastered by Steve Hoffman recently for LP and SACD.

Quote from: KevinP on May 08, 2010, 03:00:36 PM
Gelder's work for other labels has always been fine, but when he started the BN RVG series, something snapped. Probably a hearing drum.

Bogey, sure. Follow this link. Your credit card company will be glad you did.
http://store.acousticsounds.com/s/259/Blue_Note_45_RPM_-_Analogue_Productions_Reissues_Both_Sets?store=acousticsounds&banner_id=238

Quote from: James on July 16, 2010, 06:42:33 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61e92vsVSkL._SS500_.jpg)

Quote from: James on July 21, 2010, 05:29:29 PM
well the album so much more than your standard blues or blues rock album, it's not 3 chord blues at all, its chalk full of harmonic curveballs, unexpected turns, unusual chord sequences, ballsy virtuoso leads, grooves, brilliant arrangements, humorous lyrics...its more a jazz musician playing the blues, or reinventing it ...the album fuses or combines the simplicity of the blues with the complexity of jazz with rock fire, and you hear this throughout quite convincingly.excellent musicianship throughout...and scott's one of the best electric guitarists ever imo, he completely understands gear, tone, attack etc but has a rich vocabulary and knows how to improvise.

Quote from: James on July 21, 2010, 06:29:29 PM
Your not talking to a little kid .... And you don't get gigs as an electric guitarist playing with genius's like Chick Corea & Joe Zawinul by being a musical ignoramus.

Quote from: James on July 21, 2010, 09:13:14 PM
Just curious .. what are some of your faves, not talkin' gut-bucket blues  .. but "blues" (using the term loosely in this context) album(s) played by musicians (particularly guitarists) steeped in electric jazz.

Quote from: James on July 26, 2010, 04:47:32 PM
Listening to a lot of Weather Report lately ...

• Night Passage (http://www.amazon.com/Night-Passage-Weather-Report/dp/B0012GMYY6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1280111707&sr=1-1)
• Tail Spinnin' (http://www.amazon.com/Tale-Spinnin-Weather-Report/dp/B001A89VTM/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1280111855&sr=1-3)
• Black Market (http://www.amazon.com/Black-Market-Weather-Report/dp/B000066T3M/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1280111939&sr=1-1)
• Mr. Gone (http://www.amazon.com/Mr-Gone-Weather-Report/dp/B0012GMZ0O/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1280112035&sr=1-2)
• Heavy Weather (http://www.amazon.com/Heavy-Weather-Report/dp/B000002AGE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1280112120&sr=1-1)

These are all killer.

Zawinul ... one of the great masters of electronics, synthesizers, & one of the finest composers in jazz ...

Quote from: James on July 27, 2010, 07:58:28 AM
What are some of your electric jazz faves ... ?

Quote from: James on July 28, 2010, 05:41:30 AM
Some 'exotic' choices there ... I like Shakti too, the earlier stuff, my fave is ...

http://www.youtube.com/v/HuDO-Knx5BU

Some of my electric jazz faves would be ...

Billy Cobham, Spectrum
Return to Forever, Hymn of the Seventh Galaxy
Mahavishnu Orchestra, Birds of Fire
Tony Williams Lifetime, Believe It
Weather Report, 8:30
Miles Davis, We Want Miles
Herbie Hancock, Thrust
Tribal Tech, Tribal Tech
Allan Holdsworth, Atavachron

Quote from: James on May 31, 2007, 05:11:32 AM
what are some of your absolute fave jazz recordings...

Quote from: jowcol on July 28, 2010, 07:01:29 AM

We Want Miles is my favorite 80s-90s era miles (other than Aura).   There are a lot of good boots from that tour, and they are consistently engaging.

Quote from: James on January 04, 2011, 07:02:40 AM
Love this album  ..

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51aV1qk3mBL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

01 Darkness/Earth In Search Of A Sun
02 Light/Sun
03 Oceans And Continents
04 Fourth Day - Plants And Trees
05 The Animals
06 Sixth Day - The People
07 The Seventh Day

Jan Hammer piano, Fender Rhodes electric piano,
Moog synthesizer, Oberheim synthesizer and
digital sequencer, drums, percussion, Freeman string
synthesizer, Mellotron
David Earle Johnson congas and percussion (5,6)
Steve Kindler violin (2,5,6,7)

Quote from: James on January 03, 2011, 01:56:30 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61J66CTZqtL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

01 Unsung Heroes
02 Rob Ray
03 Spell
04 Child At Heart
05 Beautiful E.
06 Again
07 Smillin' Jones
08 Where In The World?
09 Worry Doll
10 Let Me In

Bill Frisell guitars, ukulele
Hank Roberts cello, jazz-a-phone fiddle
Kermit Driscoll basses
Joey Baron drums

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 04, 2011, 08:33:38 PM

Bill Frisell is my guitar hero. I own every recording he has ever made including guest appearances (over 100+ recordings total). Where in the World? is really Frisell's last foray into the style of music he had been working on since the 1988 recording Lookout for Hope (which is Hank Roberts first recording with Frisell). I think Where in the World along with 1992's Have A Little Faith and 1994's This Land (which was actually recorded in 1992) are some of Frisell's finest albums as a leader.

Quote from: Leon on January 05, 2011, 10:40:16 AM

Bill Frisell is good and makes very interesting recordings.  For me he is the modern electric equivalent of John Fahey - but more jazz, for sure, although I would not call him a "jazz guitarist". 

Jazz guitarists fall into three groups for me, and I have clear preferences:

1. Absolute jazz: Jim Hall, Barney Kessel, Jimmy Raney
2. Soulful/groove: Kenny Burrell, Wes Montgomery, John Scofield
3. Fusion jerkoffs: most of the ones James likes.

:D

Quote from: Leon on January 06, 2011, 08:56:34 AM
Yeh, there's plenty of good music out there - and we obviously have different tastes, with some overlap.

I also like Moon Germs and Penny Arcade.

If I had to name my favorite guitarists, it would be Jim Hall, Grant Green and Tal Farlow.  Not t that these guys are better than others, just that their records are the ones I consistently enjoy.   I was not being entirely serious with my aside on fusion guitarists, since I do like McGlaughlin and others like Larry Coryell , Scofield and John Abercrombie (probably the one I like best of that style).  I've never been much of a fan of Pat Metheny - although some of his CDs I enjoy, Song X and Beyond The Missouri Sky.

However, the jazz I love beyond all other is the post-bop and early free jazz.  Miles' 70s electric recordings are consistently the only "fusion" jazz that I like, unqualified.  There are other isolated recordings from the 70s, and after, that are of the fusion type (Birds of Fire, Lifetime) - but I prefer going back to the 40s and 30s rather than forward in time from the 50s and 60s.

I do really enjoy the free jazz from the 70s, Marty Ehrlich, Tim Berne, John Zorn and that whole scene is fun.

Chris Potter is a good sax guy out there today.  Bob Mintzer, Dick Oatts, Greg Osby - also good, but a but a bit older.

Quote
There's so much good jazz, it is silly to quibble over these things.  I'm a big believer in going with what you natually like and shrugging off the rest.

Quote from: Leon on January 06, 2011, 08:56:34 AM

Chris Potter is a good sax guy out there today.

Quote from: James on January 06, 2011, 01:55:47 PM
I don't really dig your taste in guitarists ... and Song X is truly awful ... the best Metheny stuff is the trio recordings ... but the very nature of jazz is very hit & miss... Ornette's best stuff is some of the early Atlantic stuff ... haven't liked much since.

Bop generally bores me to tears and free jazz encompasses a lot, it's not just playing as out as possible (that kind of "free music" I hate the most). Miles's 70s electric is very hit & miss, most of it miss, rambling garbage with a backbeat .. it does have it's moments tho .. ditto his 80s stuff.

Nothing tops Weather Report in electric jazz, they brought it to the highest level in that idiom. And Mahavishnu of course was a major band, nothing has really come close since. Lifetime was great, especially Believe It! with guitar-genius Allan Holdsworth ... who's deepened much since ... it's hard not to appreciate the harmonic depth he's achieved plus the he's the most naturally fluid & lyrical improvising guitarist I can think of. Few match him. McLaughlin has lost the plot since his best years ... (i.e. some Miles, Mahavishnu, Shakti)

Hate Zorn ... Potter's alright. Osby's alright. None of them touch Brecker or are as influencial.

Quote from: James on January 06, 2011, 07:22:21 PM
As a general rule .. I prefer horn players & keyboard/piano players to guitarists (because they tend to have a larger & more advanced vocab to listen to). But I do like things from some of the names you mentioned - some more than others; some other players that are on my radar as far as guitarists are concerned are; the unbelievable George Benson ... man he's something else, a real talent. Scott Henderson of course, monster player in many modes. Steve Topping is great, wish he'd record more. And Wayne Krantz is probably the only guitarist guitarist of recent that I thought was really exciting/good/fresh - check out 2 Drink Minimum.

Quote from: James on January 06, 2011, 08:09:57 PM
What have you heard? These musicians are top-shelf.

Quote from: James on January 06, 2011, 08:09:57 PMSolo Scott is the essence of the man ... lots of great stuff, and he's able to explore the instrument more. I love it all.

Quote from: James on January 06, 2011, 08:09:57 PMBenson is a great player who has made really engaging, creative & finely crafted albums & music. That's why he has the reputation as being one of the finest in the pantheon. He's super talented. I prefer his mid-70s to early 80s period; albums such as Weekend In LA, In Flight, Breezin, Living Inside Your Love and some of his earlier stuff too Live at Carnegie Hall. All great stuff. He did a great record with Jimmy Smith in the early 80's where he absolutely floored me on a blues; Off the Top. To me his playing has the most amazing time feel, big soul, glorious choice of notes and melody as well as serious burn factor...in other words, he has it ALL. And he can hear and sing everything he plays with pin point musicality ...

Quote from: James on January 06, 2011, 08:40:21 PM
I can't imagine a serious player not connecting with either. They're both really exceptional ... you may hear this later in life if you give them another try. Believe me.

Quote from: James on January 06, 2011, 08:40:21 PMWow you're way off on that assessment - his jazz-rock blues playing is fucking killer, brilliant arrangements and tunes. Great players on his solo albums too.

Quote from: James on January 06, 2011, 08:40:21 PMYou should check out some of those albums I mentioned, it'll be a major wake up call.

Quote from: James on January 06, 2011, 09:02:01 PM
No I read it ... you have your opinions and it's ok to feel this way but ,., i'm thinking you just 'can't hear' how good that stuff actually is or your just 'in a mood' or something ... because the truth is - with your opinion or not - it's still  really fantastic music making.

Quote from: James on January 06, 2011, 09:17:42 PM
No .. it's fantastic music making, kid. And you clearly haven't heard any of those albums I mentioned carefully at all. Because if you did, and you're a player like you claim you are - and like harmonically  (improvisation, composition) adventurous music with a real voice .. then you should love most of those albums I mentioned or at least recognize the facts. They have all that and more in spades.

Quote from: James on January 06, 2011, 09:25:53 PM
Don't care; your opinions have absolutely no weight at all in my books, this assessment was made ages ago btw.

Quote from: James on January 06, 2011, 06:51:10 PM
And you and they would be very wrong of course; Miles's 70s efforts by & large in no way come close to WR's best efforts of the mid to late 70s - there is a lot going on with WR, lots of layers & very adventurous. Genius compositions, improvisations, playing, diversity, sounds. With Miles & even early WR you have lots rambling and 'searching' and not much happening at all, and virtually no composition or development ... Teo would just cut and paste the stuff into some semblance of an album later, sometimes it would work, but mostly not. In fact, most of it isn't very good, or adventurous at all - just rambling, samey and dull. Listen to WR albums Tail Spinnin' thru to Night Passage very carefully - you'll be surprised at what goes on in comparison in all musical aspects; it's far far more varied, rich, focused and brilliant. Mindblowing stuff.

Quotethe WR  stuff is very spontaneous, but the improvising (solo & collective) is on such a high level that it often sounds through-composed in a lot of cases.

Quote from: James on January 07, 2011, 08:12:51 AM
No you're totally off on that, and I know it's hard to believe but it's true - a lot of that stuff was just dashed off and totally improvised. It was operating on a much higher level on all fronts. The earlier stuff (& Miles 70s) sounds so disorganized in comparison.

Quote from: James on January 07, 2011, 07:45:07 AM
Teo's involvement was paramount in the success of some of the better tracks/albums ... Dark Magus, Agharta and Pangaea were released and assembled against Miles's wishes I think,

Quote from: Leon on January 07, 2011, 06:26:03 AM
jowcol, I think you an I are on the same page, with a few differences in focus and preferences, but, by and large, we're looking for and appreciate the same aspects of jazz. 

Quote from: Leon on January 07, 2011, 06:26:03 AM
As far as jazz composers/composing goes - it is almost an oxymoron, IMO, since for me, the essence of jazz is the improvisation, and to the extent there is a written aspect, if it is too constraining, it gets in the way, again IMO, of the playing.  But that is not to say that there have not been great jazz composers:

Ellington
Mingus
Andrew Hill
Wayne Shorter
Dave Holland is a guy who I think creates great balance between the written sections and the playing.

There are many others, but these came quickest to my mind.

Quote from: James on January 07, 2011, 08:51:09 AM
I've read it ... must have been all the drugs or something ... because  the results were a lot of long super indulgent meandering with not much happening at all musically. There is more going on in a compact WR track, and a lot more focus & spontaniety.

Quote from: James on January 07, 2011, 08:51:09 AM
I've read it ... must have been all the drugs or something ...

Quote

Percussionist James Mtume about the direction of Miles's mid-1970s music:

"Miles and I constantly talked about music and the direction it was going," Mtume recalled, "and one of the things we talked about was fusion. My view was that the fusion movement was the emphasis of form over feeling. It became about how complex you can write things. This is not writing from the heart, but writing from the head. Playing bars of 11/8 for complexity's sake is great for school, but not for music. Miles went way past that. We went straight for the feeling. We were exploring how long we could keep one chord interesting. That was infuriating to the critics, who were glorifying fusion. But we said, 'Fuck fusion.' We were into emotion."

"The other thing that we talked about," Mtume continued, "was that Miles felt that his music had moved away from the pulse of African-American music. He felt his shit had become too esoteric and that he had contributed to that. Miles wanted to find a way back into connecting with the black community. But the aesthetic question was, 'How do we do that?' We discussed this more than anything else. At the time Miles was listening to a lot of James Brown, Sly Stone, Jimi Hendrix, and George Clinton, and that's what he wanted to put together. Miles's idea was to get back to the root of the music, to the funk, but to funk with a high degree of experimental edge. He wanted to take it much further."

Quote from: James on January 08, 2011, 10:26:09 AM
I mean this in the most sincere way man ...just  listen to those albums* more or re-visit them with open ears,you will be so surprised...

Quote from: James on January 08, 2011, 10:26:09 AM
Improvising compositions,

Quote from: James on January 08, 2011, 10:26:09 AM

See this goes to show that you're not that familiar with the albums & music I'm talking about - 2 of which are live documents

Quote from: James on January 08, 2011, 10:26:09 AM
and loaded with spontaneous creativity, richness and invention - in all aspects

Quote from: James on January 08, 2011, 10:26:09 AM
Teo was really the true genius behind some of the better tracks and moments on Miles's stuff during that time.

Quote from: James on January 08, 2011, 10:26:09 AM
It's not long drug-addled simplistic meandering 'jams' of the 70s Miles variety with nothing going on ... it's A LOT more musical. Miles lost the plot by the mid-70s & beyond .. the music isn't that great at all and lacks any kind of focus or thought, just long pointless jams.

Quote from: James on January 08, 2011, 02:44:06 PM
See this proves to me that you don't really know a lot

Quote
I'm talking about great music here.

QuoteMiles is THE most overrated jazz musician of all time as a player. And I always found his tone 'grating' and he lacked technique & range. Many mediocre & long solos. I'd take Zawinul or Shorter over him anyday ..

Quote
I don't really take much stock in your view jowol ... i'm sorry bro.

Quote from: James on January 08, 2011, 10:49:12 AM
Pat Metheny is one of the best of his generation .. in the trio format he is best ...

http://www.youtube.com/v/s1g_FqUOWjQ

Quote from: James on January 08, 2011, 06:36:45 PM
In Miles' biography, it's stated that Bird let him into his band because he felt sorry for him. Miles' was a nice guy, but he couldn't play along with them. So he let him sit in, and Miles learnt stuff by heart and didn't improvise.

Quote
Miles never created, named or declared any of these supposed new 'genres', and never forget - the players in his various bands were just as responsible for the success he had, Miles often got 'all' the credit and this wrong ... he just merely did his thing essentially and the media/press ran with it and compartmentalized and categorized and stuck labels on it...

Quote
Miles was a good director and assembler of talent, often 'cherry picking' top players from various bands on the scene, because of his enormous reputation and popularity he could do that ... but his own simplistic musicianship as a player often paled amoungst  many players he recruited & played with ... and many of the players after leaving Miles's band would normally go on to greater musical heights.

Quote
John McLaughlin himself does not appear to have recognized the brilliance of his own playing, or that of the other musicians, on the In A Silent Way session. His bewilderment was illustrated by an anecdote told by Herbie Hancock. "After we finished we walked out of the studio," Hancock remembered, "and while we were standing in the hallway John came over and whispered to me, 'Can I ask you a question? I answered, 'Sure'. He then said, 'Herbie, I can't tell... was that any good what we did? I mean, what did we do? I can't tell what's going on!' So I told him, 'John, welcome to a Miles Davis session. Your guess is as good as mine. I have no idea, but somehow when the records come out, they end up sounding good.' Miles had a way of seeing straight through what happened and knowing that over time people would figure out what was really happening."

Quote from: Bogey on January 09, 2011, 09:58:04 AM
What is your overall take on Monk, Karl?

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 09, 2011, 11:11:56 AM
I can't get enough of his work, Bill. It really sings to me, somehow. 

QuoteEnabled by new technology, Joe recorded his improvisations at home on a cassette deck (and later with MIDI in his home studio he and Maxine dubbed "The Music Room"), and then either used them directly as the tune's base (as with "Nubian Sundance" and "Jungle Book" on Mysterious Traveller), or transcribed them note-for-note so that the band could play them as Joe originally conceived them. It was a method Joe would use throughout his life.

QuoteRensin also asked Zawinul if he thought he'd left Miles Davis behind. After taking a moment to consider the question, Zawinul said, "No, I don't think we've left Miles behind. We are just somewhere else, man. Another entity that grew out of him. He's the father and we are the sons, and even when you are small and you stand upon the shoulders of the father, you are going to see further than he. That's what we are doing, and one day I hope to have many sons of my own.

Quote from: James on January 12, 2011, 07:53:10 AM
Zawinul wrote in In A Silent Way ... and was just as responsible for creating the sounds on Bitches Brew too as were the others.. incl. Shorter who also wrote all the best pieces during the 2nd Quintet phase. Or how Evans was key to Kind of Blue's sound. Miles's let the players in his band do there thing and be creative - he didn't really interfere or give directions much.

Quote from: James on January 12, 2011, 07:53:10 AM
But Miles never really developed or evolved greatly as a player, he always essentially played the same in his simple style but he changed his personnel around him quite a bit though

Quote from: James on January 12, 2011, 07:53:10 AM
But Miles <...> changed his personnel around him quite a bit though - and often took all the credit.

Quote from: James on January 12, 2011, 07:53:10 AM
Duke was a pianist-composer-bandleader and he essentially kept the same band together for half a century.

Quote
There were no third trombone parts, so I had to sort of compose my own parts.  Then, as the new numbers came in, they started arranging for third trombone.  All bands at that time were ear bands.  Whatever you heard you'd pick a place to fit in, a part to fit in. Whatever you heard was missing, that's where you were.

Quote
I had a library of music, it must have been six inches thick, but none of it was titled or numbered, and we didn't play any of it anyway!  I know it sounds fantastic, but it's the truth. You can ask anyone who was ever in there and they'll tell you.  There wasn't any music.

Quote from: James on January 12, 2011, 07:53:10 AM
Zawinul <...> just as responsible for creating the sounds on Bitches Brew too as were the others.

Quote
"After the Bitches Brew sessions Miles took me home in a limousine, and I didn't say anything. He asked, 'Why don't you say anything?' and I said, 'Because I didn't like what we just recorded.' We had played a lot of stuff that was OK, but I was not impressed. Several months later I walked into the CBS offices, and through some closed doors I heard some enormous,
fantastic music. I asked 'Wow, what is that?' and a secretary replied, 'Well, Mr. Zawinul,
that's you playing with Miles on Bitches Brew!'"

Quote
Miles Davis: We changed what Joe had written... cut down all the chords and took his melody and used that. I wanted to make the sound more like rock. In rehearsals we had played it like Joe had written it, but it wasn't working for me because all the chords were cluttering it up... When we recorded I just threw out the  chord sheets and told everyone to play just the melody, just to play off that. They were surprised to be working in this way."
(Miles: The Autobiography, page 286)

Zawinul: (irritated) There were no chords. There was always a drone from the beginning.
You can hear the original version on my Atlantic album [Zawinul, 1970], which includes an
introduction which Miles did not use. The section of the tune he used, and which now has become famous, never had any changes, apart from a couple of chords going up. Until today I believe that Miles was wrong in taking these two chords out, because the tune does not have the climax it could have had.  But there was no note in the melody changed, and no chords were stripped.
By the way, I also wrote the 2nd part of "It's About That Time." I wrote the melodic bass line and the descending melody.  I never got any credit for that in terms of money. The bass line is what made that tune. I blame Teo, because he always put things together so that it came out as if Miles had written it. But that's not correct.
{as quoted in Miles Beyond}

Quote from: James on January 12, 2011, 07:53:10 AM
Miles's let the players in his band do there thing and be creative - he didn't really interfere or give directions much.

Quote
Herbie Hancock: A Miles Davis sessions was always different because Miles was such a master of understanding how music and art relate to life. He knew that it was about risk taking, and encouraging the musician to capture the moment, how you're feeling in that moment, and having the daring and conviction to go for it, even if you don't make it. What was also different around that
time was that Miles began stacking several keyboards on a track. We might have two or three keyboardists going. And we'd all try to go somewhere, play some ornaments that would add a different element to everything else that was going on.

Zawinul: It was a nice session, with lots of youngsters, including myself. We all had seriously large egos, but there were no ego-problems. Nobody stepped on the other's feet. There were three keyboard players, and nobody interfered with the other person. It was a combination of not being overly careful on the one hand, and on the other hand having enough respect to listen to each other.
This had a lot to do with Miles's presence. He told John McLaughlin to play as if he didn't know how to play the guitar. As a result John's playing was among the best of his career. I think the way he plays on 'Early Minor'  [one of the previously unreleased tracks issued on The In A Silent Way Sessions], he's never played that good. The things he played with Miles were very creative and not so busy, not so much about speed.

Chick Corea: His genius as a band leader was in his group way of thinking, and in choosing the musicians and leading them forward by what he played, and by the way he used the ideas he or someone else brought to the band. It was always interesting to see what he did with someone's composition. Miles would take the basic piece and often only play certain notes from it, and
leave the rhythm section to play other notes. He didn't write that much as a composer, but he was an incredible, brilliant arranger.  Miles suggested how to play the melodies, when to play them, how long to play them for. He'd open them up and then close them  down and leave notes out. Like with some of Joe Zawinul's pieces, Miles would only play certain notes, and  leave the rhythm section to play other notes.

Dave Holland: It was quite an education to see Miles take a piece of material and adapt it to what he wanted it to be. I don't remember Miles ever playing someone else's tune the way they had written it. He always changed it. He'd take a section, did something with it, and made it his. If there were many chords he'd just have the bass play one noteunderneath all the moving chords, so that you get a pedal point. He did this with Zawinul's ' In A Silent Way .'

Quote
Teo Macero: Miles would record his stuff, and then he'd just leave. He would sometimes say, 'I like this or that,' and then I'd say: 'I'll listen to it and I'll put it together. If you like it, fine, if not, we'll change it.' So I was the one with the vision. Miles also had a vision, but he wasn't really a composer, he didn't compose in an organized way. It was happenstance. He played with these great musicians, and when they had played enough, I was able to cut out the stuff that wasn't good, and piece something together from the rest. When we began editing In A Silent Way we had two huge stacks of 2" tape, 40-something reels in total. They were recorded over a longer period. It was one of the rare times Miles came to an editing session,  because I'd told him, 'This is a big job, you want to get your ass down here.' So Miles said, 'We'll do it together.' And we did. We cut things down to 8 ½ minutes on one LP side, and 9 ½ on the other, and then he said to me, "That's my record.' I said, 'Go to hell!' because it wasn't enough music for an album. So I ended up creating repeats to make it longer. A lot of the stuff we cut was bullshit, and some of it  is put out on this new boxed set. I raised hell at Columbia the other day and told them it was ridiculous  they're putting this bullshit out.

Quote from: James on January 12, 2011, 08:25:20 AM
Zawinul was such a major talent & a genius, one of greatest ever. It's quite amazing that those compositions were improvs like that ..."

Quote

A hallmark of Weather Report's recording style was the on-the-spot in-studio jam  and post-production manipulation that either improved on original compositions, or led to entirely new ones. Zawinul clearly benefited from his experience  recording with Miles Davis (though Zawinul might say it was the other way around),  and applied those lessons to Weather Report. Johnson says,
"They would just start rolling tape and the song would start immediately from the first note. Then later Joe and Wayne would go back and splice the tape. So what may have been the middle of what we did would all of a sudden become the introduction, so it would start at a high point."

Peter Erskine reports that the process was basically the same during his tenure: "The band's mode of operation was [that] at all times some form of tape recorder had to be recording—cassette, a reel-to-reel that they would use  over again if there was nothing worth keeping, and the multitrack. The idea is, we'd play something as a take and  leave the machine going. At one point, Jaco sat down at my drums and started playing—which was a little threatening to me at the time—and started playing something, and Joe joined in, and that became the tune '8:30', the opener on the
studio side [of the album of the same name]."

Quote
Further insight into Zawinul and Shorter's genius can be found in the way they adapted and improved the work of others.  Alphonso Johnson remembers, "'Scarlet Woman' [from the album Mysterious Traveller] was a song that I wrote,  and I'd conceived it totally differently to the way it turned out! Joe, in his infinite wisdom—and Wayne too,  actually—he was the one who said a lot of times, when he was with Miles, he would bring in a chart and Miles  would just play the intro, and that became a great song. So that's kind of what they did: they took that  [sings descending four-note melody], and they eliminated the other three-fourths of my song.  I like their version better. I've never even recorded the rest of the song. What they did was perfect."

Quote from: James on January 12, 2011, 08:08:08 AM
another player who had a compositional driven approach to improvising (like best WR);

Quote from: James on January 13, 2011, 08:48:35 AM
Again, no clue what you're getting at with all these unnecessary quotes from books etc. ...

Quote from: James on January 13, 2011, 09:05:09 AM
Yea ... I mean it's so stupid, I've read a lot of that shit myself .. but it's better to be well listened than read. We don't need the quoted & gushing testimonials etc. lol

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 13, 2011, 09:18:59 AM
“Unnecessary quotes.” Classic!

Quote from: James on January 13, 2011, 03:35:20 PM
Oh well, while you mull over poofed blankety meaningless quotes (another classic for you? lol) ...

Quote from: James on January 13, 2011, 03:59:10 PM
Well at least you have the self-awareness to size-up your scribbles (posts) for what they really are.  ;D

Quote from: James on January 14, 2011, 08:51:48 AM
Leon.. the individual releases fair much better than those big expensive complete boxes which mostly comprise of weak stuff in desperate need of editing. Ditch the hours & hours of chaff i say and go for the individual releases. And there are better places to go to get the best of the 2nd Quintet E.S.P/Miles Smiles/Nefertiti (I like the first Quintet better myself) .. and for electric Miles ... the Jack Johnson album is tops (esp. the track Right Off), it was Miles's own favorite as well.

Quote from: James on January 14, 2011, 02:09:06 PM
Your opinion that there are no out takes is false of course

QuoteLouis Armstrong
Louis "Country & Western" Armstrong
Avco Embassy
1970
Many jazzites make the mistake of dismissing country and Americana as simpleton music made by and for simpletons. Fortunately there have been musicians in both jazz and country who have embraced each other's genres to create some beautiful and eclectic American music. Two of the most notable jazz musicians to enjoy country were none other than Charlie Parker and Louis Armstrong.

According to Ken Burns' jazz documentary, Bird was a huge fan of Hank Williams. Since the bebop pioneer died much too young, we will never know if he would have explored this avenue, but Louis Armstrong went all the way and released an often-forgotten record completely devoted to country music.

Although jazz had flirted with country long before Satchmo released Louis "Country & Western" Armstrong, this recording is essential. It stands in the middle somewhere between Bob Wills' legendary country swing (aka Texas swing) of the thirties and the forties and Willie Nelson's country-jazz crossover records in the early eighties. C&W Armstrong has been virtually ignored, now out of print and and never even available on CD.

The record itself is nowhere near as groundbreaking as the work released by Wills, Nelson, Lyle Lovett, Bill Frisell or bluegrass-jazz innovators Bela Fleck and Alison Brown. In fact, Armstrong doesn't even play his trumpet on the record, but his trademark raspy vocal chops are at work. The record is filled out with Nashville's session men Jack Eubanks (lead guitar), Stu Basore (steel guitar), Willie Ackerman (skins), Hank Strzelecki (bass), Larry Butler (piano) and Billie Grammer (rhythm guitar).

What is rather strange to lying on the side one is his contemporary pop take on hippie folk-rockers The Youngbloods's "Get Together." Yet hearing Satchmo laying his legendary chops over country classics such as 'Miller's Cave' (a hit for Hank Snow), 'Almost Persuaded' (David Houston), and 'Crazy Arms' (Ray Price) makes this worth seeking out.

The record has much in common with Ray Charles' legendary Modern Sounds in Country and Western Music. New Sounds was the definitive crossover album by Charles that helped to create the sub-genre known as country soul. Ray built a section of his career on this sound without ever taking on the full extent of country music. Yet Charles's cover of Don Gibson's "I Can't Stop Loving You" and Johnny Cash's "Busted" are R&B classics. Yet no one in the jazz community ever tackled Country with such zeal. While some may cast this record as a novelty, one play of this record proves that certainly isn't so. While contemporaries such as Miles was fusing rock and funk into jazz, Louis took on a music he enjoyed as well.

With this record Louis proved that country was an original American icon that deserved the same amount of fervor given to jazz. His amazing phrasing and tenderness on the ballads proved he loved this music. It's unfortunate that the record hasn't gotten that much attention. At least when Coltrane released Ballads or Bird put out Charlie Parker with Strings there was controversy about "selling out.' There is no sell out here, either. Why would there be? This is a record that captures a man singing songs he truly liked for an audience that was rather fickle about the chosen genre.

Of course unlike jazz or bluegrass there isn't any ripping solos to showcase off the musician's ability. Still his band plays great arrangements at the hands of engineers Bob Lifton and Charlie Tallent. Louis presents a record that mainly contains pure unadulterated country, although "Take Her Away" gets some classic New Orleans style jazz laid onto its groove.

This record may not win over new fans to country or to jazz. In fact my favorite jazz/country record remains Lyle Lovett's Lyle Lovett and his Large Band, which opens with a must hear cover of Clifford Brown's "Blues Walk." Still, this record stands as an essential document of Louis Armstrong and his amazing musical insight. It still boggles the mind how Louis can pull off pretty much anything he tried his hand at. Listeners who have not heard this album will be pleasantly surprised by how well Armstrong pulls off his ode to country.

Quote from: bwv 1080 on January 15, 2011, 07:14:57 PM
the oscar peterson solo here is simply stunning

http://www.youtube.com/v/f44qgQA1B-g

Quote from: Leon on January 16, 2011, 04:31:41 AM
Yes, that is a very nice performance of that classic Jobim song by Oscar Peterson.  It is included in one of the better tribute CDs to come out after Jobim's death:

Girl from Ipanema: The Antonio Carlos Jobim Songbook

[asin]B000001EBX[/asin]

Verve did a good job of delving into their back catalog for these uniformly good tracks.

Quote from: James on January 14, 2011, 02:09:06 PM
Your opinion that there are no out takes is false of course, not everything played is great, in fact; it rarely is. A recording is a full-on production, it's more than just a snapshot. I like Miles too ... but it's very hit & miss, so it's best to go for the cream of the crop is what I'm saying ... otherwise your wasting life listening to a lot of mediocre stuff. (i.e. those big boxes that contain mostly subpar crap that hit the cutting room floor for a reason)

Quote from: James on January 15, 2011, 07:18:05 AM
Joe's Symphony (http://www.amazon.com/Zawinul-Stories-Of-The-Danube/dp/B00469KELQ/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=dmusic&qid=1295103938&sr=8-2) ..

"It is all improvisation," he once said of his composing style.
"All my tunes are improvisations. I'm a formal improviser. Even my symphony I improvised." - Josef Zawinul

Quote from: James on January 13, 2011, 08:48:35 AM
Again, no clue what you're getting at with all these unnecessary quotes from books etc. ...

Quote from: jowcol on January 18, 2011, 02:40:10 PM
Our, in the words of the great prophet-- "Don't you believe in quality control?"

Actually, I do-- quality of performance.   I have some bootleg Coltrane that, in terms of performance, blows away anything that was commercially released, even though the audio quality was not as good.  I'd take either of the Paris 1961 performance of My Favorite Things over the studio version, and the 1963 Stuttgart show was, IMO, a revelation of how far that band had gone.  The Helsinki 61 show had one of Tyner's best solos, and Copenhagen show from that also a rare cover of Delilah that was never recorded.   I'm glad I took the time to dig in-- I could see why others would not.

Although I'd agree that the material in some of the Miles box sets may be uneven,  the box sets offer insight into how much was and was not added in production.  For in A Silent way, it is pretty dramatic what role Teo had, and I honestly don't listen to the other tracks that much-- but value it for a slice of history, but there are a couple of nuggets I come back to.  One thing I like about the Cellar Door Box set, on the other hand, was how much the Dec 19 show sounded like the Live tracks from Live Evil. And, listening to every night of that run, you could hear not only the high energy level, but how the material was shaken up each night.   And on the Jack Johnson sessions, you got to hear some of the source material before Teo messed it up when he recycled some of it on Big Fun. -- this was one occasion where I thought his editing and effects got in the way of the material.  I preferred the source.  Although the studio  Jack Johnson is one of my faves.  I like the option of comparing.


There are some that field that overly structured recording kill the essence of jazz-- I wouldn't go that far.  Some of my favorite jazz albums benefited from a lot of post-recording editing and wizardry.  But to assume that Better Recording=Better Performance is a bit of reach.  An Excellent case in point is the Ellington Live in Newport album.  During Gonsalves's epic solo on Dimenuendo and Crescendo in blue, his solo was recorded at the right sound level-- he didn't get close enough to the microphone.  Of course, this was the solo that brought the crowd to it's feet, and also reignited Ellington's career.  Despite the flaws. 


"A recording is a full on production" -- Ellington Live at Newport?  Garner's Concert by the Sea?  Coltrane Live at the Village Vanguard or Birdland?   Miles Davis Quintet Live at the Plugged Nickel?   I would say that the aim of those recordings was to capture a live performance, not produce it into something else.  I'd certainly suggest checking out the recording notes for the Coltrane at the Village Vanguard set to get an idea of what the goals were.

Quote from: James on January 18, 2011, 04:19:27 PM
[asin]B000005HBG[/asin]

01 Save Your Love For Me (Buddy Johnson)
02 Teaneck (Nat Adderley)
03 Never Will I Marry (Frank Loesser)
04 I Can't Get Started (Vernon Duke, Ira Gershwin)
05 The Old Country (Curtis Lewis, Adderley)
06 One Man's Dream (Joe Zawinul, C Wright)
07 Happy Talk (Richard Rodgers, Oscar Hammerstein II)
08 Never Say Yes (Adderley)
09 This Masquerade Is Over (Herb Magidson, Allie Wrubel)
10 Unit 7 (Sam Jones)
11 A Sleepin Bee (Harold Arlen, Truman Capote)

Nancy Wilson vocals (1,3,5,7,9,11)
Cannonball Adderley alto saxophone
Nat Adderley cornet
Louis Hayes drums
Sam Jones double bass
Joe Zawinul piano

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nancy_Wilson/Cannonball_Adderley

Quote from: James on January 18, 2011, 03:27:07 PM
jowol you're out of your depth, uninformed .. & never make assumptions .. Joe was a great man as well as a visionary musician in a class all by himself. You have obviously have no clue on the scope of his musicianship and vast accumulated knowledge. I was fortunate to see him live on occasion and was often left speechless at the band and music I was hearing ... a freight train of rhythm & sound .. what a master he was.

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on January 18, 2011, 06:24:35 PM
I was just listening to this today. Adderley is a monster, one of the most underrated horn players ever. Nancy Wilson is a great singer as well. She sounds a lot like Billie Holiday, but all though she's a bit less intense then Holiday was in her prime, the high definition quality of the record sort of makes up for it. By the time Holiday started to record in hi-def, her voice wasn't what it used to be anymore, at least to my hears. Always thought that was regrettable, since she had the sweetest voice among the high profile Jazz singers of that era. Once again, IMO.

Quote from: James on January 18, 2011, 03:27:07 PM
jowol you're out of your depth, uninformed .. & never make assumptions .. Joe was a great man as well as a visionary musician in a class all by himself. You have obviously have no clue on the scope of his musicianship and vast accumulated knowledge. I was fortunate to see him live on occasion and was often left speechless at the band and music I was hearing ... a freight train of rhythm & sound .. what a master he was.

Quote from: James on January 19, 2011, 07:36:18 AM
Hey whatever jowol .. you have no 'real' clue about the art, ditto the level that Joe was at. That's glaringly obvious.

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 19, 2011, 09:20:33 PM
Just like Miles Davis was a sellout and continued to be from Bitches Brew onwards. Acoustic jazz is where its at and there's nothing that can take the place of real instruments. Herbie Hancock was a sellout for years, but he did make several returns to acoustic-based jazz that actually took virtuosity in order to play. Fusion, for me, marked the end of jazz music. From this movement forward, it took on many other guises, but I was so happy when the 1990s arrived and jazz musicians were f****** tired of keyboards and trying to pretend to be something they're not, which were rock musician wannabes.

Quote from: Grazioso on January 20, 2011, 05:11:41 AM
I understand your point, but I wonder if you might be throwing out the baby with the bathwater. What of the electric guitar or Hammond B3 organ that were commonly used before fusion in "straight" jazz situations? Not acoustic, but certainly "real" instruments. What of guys like Jimmy Smith or Wes Montgomery, who were major players situated well inside the straight-ahead jazz tradition during its heyday of the 50's and 60's?

I would be careful, too, of labeling someone--particularly of Miles's stature--a sellout because he explored fusion. If Miles was consciously undermining or neglecting his own artistic desires to make a quick buck, then "sellout" would be an apt term. I don't know that that's the case here. Certainly part of his artistic identity consisted of being ahead of the curve and trying new things.

Quote from: jowcol on January 19, 2011, 03:05:24 AM
Among vocalists, I'm a big fan of Dinah Washington, although she jumped around between blues, jazz and pop, but she had a wonderful emotional edge to her singing (on the best songs) that reminded me a bit of Billie Holiday.  The First Issue compilation is a good overview of her Mercury years-- I'm not as fond of the pop stuff, but there is some other really fine material here. 
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41PYB16KXML._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Back to the Blues was a pretty solid return to form after her emphasis on pop.  Nobody knows the Way I Feel this Morning is epic, IMO.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61BgKYvfZ8L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

The Bessie Smith Songbook on the whole was pretty disappointing, and seems to be out of print.  The band sounded very hokey on purpose, but the cut Back Water Blues  really hooked me when I first heard it.  Your mileage may vary.

http://www.youtube.com/v/HoB_EP6vFzM



I'd agree about Holliday's later recordings, although the very raggedness of her singing in those sessions could be very compelling by itself.

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on January 20, 2011, 10:19:48 AM
She's more brilliant then Holiday but i think she is more shallow as well. I find Holiday to be more harmonically and rhythmically subtle.

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on January 20, 2011, 02:20:32 PM
I must confess i'm not really into Jazz singers. When i do listen to them, i tend to gravitate towards artists with a more "instrumental" approach, or artists that pair with good musicians.

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on January 20, 2011, 02:20:32 PM
I must confess i'm not really into Jazz singers. When i do listen to them, i tend to gravitate towards artists with a more "instrumental" approach, or artists that pair with good musicians.

Quote from: Leon on January 20, 2011, 06:52:39 AM
I combined two preferences of mine: 1) piano-less groups and 2) straight-ahead, post-bop jazz guitar led groups with these recordings:

[asin]B00006C77B[/asin]

And what is now repackaged as "Standards" but was first released as "Remembering"

[asin]B000005GVJ[/asin]

Quote from: jowcol on January 24, 2011, 05:41:20 AM
I'm a big fan of Grant Green's Matador-- it had McCoy Tyner and Elvin Jones, and the covers of My Favorite Things and Duke Pearson's Bedouin are wonderful.

The Idle Moments album has some great work, particularly the title track, which accidentally went nearly twice a long as they had originally planned.

QuoteJohn McLaughlin brought his revived Indo-jazz project Shakti to Bombay (Mumbai) in late 2000, and the result is this live disc, which features only four compositions but runs over an hour in length. (The title is a deliberate play on 1980's Friday Night in San Francisco.) McLaughlin's electric guitar and Zakir Hussain's tabla remain at the core of the group's sound. U. Shrinivas (on mandolin) and V. Selvaganesh (on kanjira, ghatam, and mridangam, all Indian percussion instruments) remain from the previous album, but there are also a number of Indian guest musicians, giving the music many added dimensions. The most remarkable guests are Debashish Bhattacharya on Hindustani slide guitar, Shankar Mahadevan on vocals, and Shiv Kumar Sharma on santur, an Indian hammered dulcimer. Sharma composed the second track, "Shringar"; nearly half an hour long, it consists almost entirely of a hypnotic dialogue between santur and guitar. Mahadevan's vocal performance on the opening "Luki" resounds with spiritual power, while Shrinivas's "Giriraj Sudha" gives a sunny, optimistic lift to the somewhat mournful set.

Quote from: James on January 24, 2011, 09:10:08 AM
and this Shakti album sounds doubtful.. 4 cuts that last an hour? You know it's got lots of indulgent pointless noodling ...

Quote from: James on January 24, 2011, 09:10:08 AM
I never liked his playing on IASW .. it meanders so much with little development, and his tone grates etc ..

Quote from: bwv 1080 on January 24, 2011, 11:43:57 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51hdvTxXriL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

don't know the live in bombay albym, but this one has a 33' track which is an actual raga (Chandrakauns) played by Hariprasad Chaurasia

and the raga has only 5 notes in it BTW

QuoteBut it's a very different record from Shakti, Handful of Beauty and Natural Elements, the three albums that comprise the group's '70s output. Those albums focused largely on short tracks, along with an occasional 10-to-15 minute mini-epic. In general, they featured a fiery blend of catchy acoustic pyrotechnics that showcased a youthful quartet determined to prove its mettle, as well as champion what was ostensibly a new genre of music. But for Remember Shakti, McLaughlin, 57, and Hussain, 48, preferred to let their music ebb and flow in a more restrained, meditative and traditional Indian manner, hence the 33-minute "Chandrakauns" and 65-minute "Mukti." These pieces include few Western influences. At their core—as with all Indian classical music—is the raga, a highly-formalized and systematic melodic form. A raga features combinations and sets of notes specifically designed to evoke distinct atmospheres, moods and emotions. When creating or performing a raga, the pitch, note sequence and intricate relationship and interaction between each note are all paramount factors. The raga form encourages a very intellectual type of improvisation that performers are required to balance with their intuitive leanings—the sort that appears all over Remember Shakti.

"Things went the natural Indian way," said McLaughlin. "This, of course, included the introduction of the raga, the various ways of collective playing and the principal improvisations from the soloists. As musicians, we are playing notes, music and rhythms and we hope to play the right melody in the correct way, but this is only part of the process. The other side that is important is the communication of the musicians and the playing and playfulness that comes from that interaction. You can put a piece of music in front of somebody and he may play it perfectly. So what? Interplay and interaction are the integral parts of music—they're as important as the notes. Without them, I don't think I'd be here. You can't just play over someone. There are many examples in jazz fusion in which you have a soloist playing over a steady drumbeat and I find this terribly boring, because I want to hear the interaction between two people. I want to know what kind of imagination and spontaneity they have. Only in spontaneity can we be who we truly are."

QuoteHussain's father Ustad Allarakha is one of those great traditionalists. As one of India's most revered tabla players, he initially did not look kindly upon his son's decision to join Shakti. "Shakti was not Indian Music, it was not American music. They made something else," he told Folk Roots magazine in 1987. "Some numbers I like, some numbers I don't like. Zakir, I told him not to do that."

"He felt I had to make my name as an Indian musician before anything else was to happen," recalled Hussain. "In the beginning, he did have problems with it. As a teacher, he was worried that I would drift to the other side of the world and sever my connection with India. I convinced him that will not be and then proved that through my actions and it was fine. My deal with him was 'Okay, I am going to play Indian classical music and I will travel to India regularly and play concerts there and have the audience accept me as an Indian classical musician. On my own time, I am going to do what I enjoy doing apart from Indian music.' Even now, 80 percent of the time I am performing Indian classical music. It is rare that I get involved in playing anything else."

Fortunately for Hussain and his father, McLaughlin was interested in embracing, not tarnishing the traditions of Indian classical music within Shakti's milieu.

"When I play with John, it's not like playing with a Western musician," said Hussain. "It's like playing with an Indian musician believe it or not. John has taken the time to study Indian classical music and figure out how we work, how we think and what our improvising techniques are. Myself, I have had the good fortune to study and understand the Western ways of musical thinking be it jazz, pop or rock. In terms of musical interaction with John, it's a bit more detailed now than before, but the same love and affection for one another is there. The fabulous thing is that connection hasn't changed. I never feel like I'm working with someone strange from a different tradition and he doesn't feel that way either."

Quote from: James on January 24, 2011, 01:26:11 PM
No .. but's not as rich that's for sure. Texturally & harmonically it gets boring pretty quickly ... and in terms of color it's dull too.

Quote from: James on January 24, 2011, 01:26:11 PM
John soared up & way beyond that Miles track with Mahavishnu & fresher early Shakti .. as a composer, and player. Can't be argued.

Quote from: James on January 24, 2011, 02:23:33 PM
Texture? Layers of music .. the complexity and depth of the harmonies etc. With Indian, a lot of it is very busy and fast, frantic at fever pitch .. some find this impressive

Quote.. and it can be, but only for so long. I need breadth & variety in music & composition in order to listen for longer periods. You take a WR, Mahavishnu, or RTF album or 2 .. which average at about 35-40 minutes in length and there is a lot more across the board musically.

QuoteQuote from: jowcol on Today at 03:00:21 PM

    So what would be your assessment of someone who would would try to argue that John's playing in the IASW sessions was the best of his career?

Quote from: James on January 24, 2011, 02:23:33 PMThey're entitled to that, but I would think they're pretty off .. John's own essence, style & confidence really as a leader, composer & player - heck as a real creative force -  really coalesced & came to fruition after Miles, blossoming with Mahavishnu.

Quote from: JoeZawinulFromMilesBeyondThis had a lot to do with Miles's presence. He told John McLaughlin to play as if he didn't know how to play the guitar. As a result John's playing was among the best of his career. I think the way he plays on 'Early Minor'  [one of the previously unreleased tracks issued on The In A Silent Way Sessions], he's never played that good. The things he played with Miles were very creative and not so busy, not so much about speed.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 26, 2011, 06:22:57 AM
And now, because some mornings you know you want Jn McLaughlin's "grating" tone . . . .

[asin]B00006GO9Q[/asin]

Quote from: Leon on January 26, 2011, 07:48:37 AM
That cover always reminds me of The Basement Tapes

Quote from: Leon on January 26, 2011, 07:48:37 AMGreat Monk recording, btw.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 26, 2011, 07:32:59 AM
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000AVHBO.01.L.jpg)

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 26, 2011, 07:56:17 AM
Ugly Beauty is one of my favorite Monk tunes. Such a lovely song.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 26, 2011, 07:59:47 AM
I just cued that back up for a repeat listen. Even some crudities in Charlie Rouses's tenor do not at all mar this.

Quote from: Leon on January 26, 2011, 08:25:34 AM
Anthony Braxton

What do you guys think about his work?

I have to say that after years of listening to the majority of his recorded output, I have a very mixed reaction - certianly not in line with the "genius" tag that is regularly applied to him by many in the (for lack of a better term) avant garde jazz camp.

Sometimes it sounds really good (much of 19 Standards, his duo date with Max Roach, the solo recording For Alto), but other times just like pretentious noodling, or worse.   ::)

Quote from: bwv 1080 on January 26, 2011, 09:08:09 AM
never able to get into it, despite liking Art Ensemble of Chicago, Ornette's work in the 70s etc

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 27, 2011, 05:59:07 AM
Thelonious Monk Quartet, Misterioso

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000000YBI.01.L.jpg)

Quote from: James on January 31, 2011, 08:08:00 PM
I was away for a bit .. addr. these ..

Quote from: James on January 31, 2011, 08:08:00 PM
Actually not true .. not only is JM's playing better, so is the music & pieces! The western component is intact as well, it's not buried in endless miles .. of long-winded thin "indian tradition".

Quote from: James on January 31, 2011, 08:08:00 PM
Playing for longer doesn't mean "more developed" or "taking it further", 9 times out of 10 it's more long winded flailing ... 

Quote from: James on January 31, 2011, 08:08:00 PM
trying to even liken it to a Bach composition doesn't work.

Quote from: James on January 31, 2011, 08:08:00 PM
(the beauty of early Shakti; this later Shakti you describe sounds long-winded with virtually all western traces erased)

Quote from:  James on January 13, 2011, 08:48:35 AM
<snip>
are you not at all familiar with the recordings and music.
<snip>
. again, put the books down and start listening to the recorded legacy
<snip>
" Listen to the music more my friend, and stop reading ..
<snip>
Are you listening to the music though? I wonder .. I doubt it.
<snip>

Quote from:  James on January 13, 2011, 08:48:35 AM
All sorts of "jazz" dabbles with indian, classical etc elements too of course, but often times it's done so subtly &-or sparingly that you won't detect it You won't get that with the noodling you’re referring to (especially the longer and longer it goes!), doesn't matter who it is .. and my point about an entire electric jazz album or two by those grps. is that there is a lot more there than 1 or 2 long-winded indian flair ups that take just as long (i.e. 35-40min). All sorts of "jazz" dabbles with indian, classical etc elements too of course, but often times it's done so subtly &-or sparingly that you won't detect it .. it's not that obvious as to hit you in the face like a freight train, and it isn't all consuming.

Quote from: James on January 31, 2011, 08:08:00 PM
Oh no more quotes!

Quote from: James on January 31, 2011, 08:08:00 PM
Doesn’t mean much, sometimes musicians have to play the game etc .. I doubt Joe even spent a lot of time listening to other peoples music (JM for instance) much or in great depth to have a perspective of it. He was too busy & absorbed in creating & living his own music .. sure, with Mahavishnu there was lots of power, energy and reckless abandon, but there were many other sides too, in the playing and composition. The series of excellent albums they put out fully documents that in spades. Or even a great JM album like My Goal’s Beyond.. .. wonder if Joe ever heard it? There is some really beautiful stuff on it ... much better than the aimless noodling with the thin, rusty tones he often used on Miles albums.

Quote from: Leon on January 27, 2011, 11:40:58 AM
[asin]B0000261HF[/asin]

One of my favorites, with Charlie Haden, Egberto Gismonti & Jan Garbarek.  There is a companion disc, Magico (http://www.amazon.com/Magico-Charlie-Haden/dp/B0000261XT/ref=pd_sim_m_1) that is equally great.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 27, 2011, 05:59:07 AM
Thelonious Monk Quartet, Misterioso

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000000YBI.01.L.jpg)

Quote from: James on February 01, 2011, 08:09:45 AM
I've heard plenty of indian music ... & I really dig those early Shakti releases ...

Quote from: James on February 01, 2011, 08:09:45 AM
they were really fresh & happening! And JM as a player has changed so much ... its like he's a totally different person/player now, and it's not to good effect at all, which is a shame. It's so stilted and flat now imo.

Quote from: James on February 01, 2011, 08:09:45 AM
I actually saw in concert a number of years ago the Remember Shakti thing ... it was a solid show, but that same fire and freshness wasn't really there as it was when it was a new thing. And they often droned on for too long .. a little restraint & economy would have been nice. It wasn't anything I wanted to "buy" after ...

Quote from: James on February 01, 2011, 08:09:45 AM
I said subtle - meaning internalized within a musicians own unique personal language ... it won't be obvious or contrived like that. There are traces of indian music in all kinds of "jazz".

Quote from: James on February 01, 2011, 08:09:45 AM
And "Alop" and "Jor"; are more or less fancy words to describe musical elements, events and happenings that you can find in non indian music to be sure  .. Alop .. opening section ..  It is unmetered, improvised and unaccompanied, over a drone .. starts slow;  vocalese... not entirely free however, systematic introduction of notes etc. ... when steady pulse is introduced; called a jor ..... when rhythmic elements override the melodic jhar etc

Quote from: James on February 01, 2011, 08:09:45 AM
You love quotes, we all know  .. but one's such as the JZ don't mean much, and they don't divide fact & opinion. Often ... (the ones you post), inflate and you put more weight on them than what they really are.

Quote from: James on February 01, 2011, 08:09:45 AM
This goes back to a point i was trying to make earlier, that it's better to be better listened than read. I can read loads of glowing and inflated pronouncements about music from various sources, but often it doesn't meet those expectations or descriptions, no matter how hard the documentation tries. The music itself reveals so much more and is the best source of information. Not all the hype around it in written words, or isolated quotes used as some cover all summation.

Quote from: James on February 01, 2011, 08:09:45 AM
And you've dodged a point I made too, that in reality... Joe most likely wasn't that involved or familiar with JM's legacy or playing as a listener; in that isolated & nabbed quote he was merely paying some lip service .. about an album he was involved with.

Quote from: James on January 15, 2011, 07:18:05 AM
Joe's Symphony (http://www.amazon.com/Zawinul-Stories-Of-The-Danube/dp/B00469KELQ/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=dmusic&qid=1295103938&sr=8-2) ..

"It is all improvisation," he once said of his composing style.
"All my tunes are improvisations. I'm a formal improviser. Even my symphony I improvised." - Josef Zawinul

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/615su2MnH2L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

01 Beginning
02 Mountain Waters
03 Empire
04 Introduction
05 Gypsy
06 Voice of the Danube
07 Unknown Soldier
08 Introduction
09 Sultan
10 Finale

Joe Zawinul keyboards, vocals
Caspar Richter  conductor
Amit Chatterjee guitar, vocals
Burhan Öçal percussion, vocals
Arto Tuncboyaciyan percussion, vocals
Walter Grassman drums
Czech State Philharmonic Orchestra

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stories_of_the_Danube

Quote from: James on October 06, 2007, 07:15:05 AM
No intelligent jazz musician in his right mind would ever say that their improvisations are comparable to a classical masterwork, that level of craftsmenship and perfection.

A few jazz musicians have tried to crossover into the realm of serious writing, though much of it isn't that good either...they really can't really compose that kind of music ... and it's comes off like an extended album track or something ... just blocks and a bit clumsy, and they don't orchestrate too well, or with much imagination/skill...so doomed ventures.

True...any symphony, orchestral work, ballet...

Or a requiem, or any choral work, or any concerto, or any string quartet or chamber work, or any sonata, or any fugue etc etc ETC

Quote from: James on February 01, 2011, 11:55:53 AM
The music is there, it totally exists. It's not a subjective thing ... the fact that 'ears' can't hear it are another matter entirely.

Quote from: jowcol on February 01, 2011, 01:32:43 PM
How come Stravinsky went from detesting Beethoven in the 20's to saying he was "infinitely precious" in the 50s?  Even the same person's ears change over time-- because the music didn't.   A lot of how music is perceived is shaped by non-acoustic expectations, prejudices etc.

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 01, 2011, 08:56:19 AM
Johnny Griffin's tenure with Thelonious Monk is severely underrated I think. This is a remarkable disc in every way imaginable.

Quote from: Leon on February 01, 2011, 08:08:48 AM
I have a few CDs of Classical Indian Music, this is one is one I consider good:

Traditional Music of India

Ali Akbar Khan

[asin]B000000ZES[/asin]

I also have a couple of other anthologies but am not in front of my home computer to find the titles.

One thing, to judge this music by western standards completely misses the point.  I like much of what I've heard, and plan on expanding my collection beyond what I already have.  It is a very interesting and complex music, that even superficially can be very enjoyable to listen to for a newbie.

Quote from: James on February 01, 2011, 11:55:53 AM
The music is there, it totally exists. It's not a subjective thing ... the fact that 'ears' can't hear it are another matter entirely.

Quote from: jowcol on February 01, 2011, 01:32:43 PM
How come Stravinsky went from detesting Beethoven in the 20's to saying he was "infinitely precious" in the 50s?  Even the same person's ears change over time-- because the music didn't.   A lot of how music is perceived is shaped by non-acoustic expectations, prejudices etc. 

Quote from: James on February 01, 2011, 01:51:57 PM
Yup. Listening is a skill that grows and develops. Time & maturity play a role also.

Quote from: James on February 02, 2011, 07:58:39 AM
I can't speak for Stravinsky, so I ignored that.

Here, enjoy some Prasanna ..

Sobhillu Saptaswara
http://www.youtube.com/v/PDrwJYcQYTs

Pot Belly Blues
http://www.youtube.com/v/6cOsuzC2OV8

4th Stone from the Sun
http://www.youtube.com/v/csOB2rT2hNs

http://www.youtube.com/v/-M-KqeyfEVU


>> http://www.guitarprasanna.com/

Quote from: James on February 02, 2011, 10:35:29 AM

Scott Henderson guitar, guitar synthesizer
Gary Willis bass, synthesizers
David Goldblatt keyboards
Joey Heredia drums
Brad Dutz percussion

Quote from: Bogey on February 02, 2011, 06:05:07 PM
[asin]B000AV2GCE[/asin]
1957

Monk
'Trane
Ahmed Abdul-Malik; Bass (some Art Blakey)
Shadow Wilson: Drums ( Benny Carter,  Lionel Hampton, Earl Hines, Count Basie, and Woody Herman.Ella Fitzgerald, Sonny Stitt, etc)

Nice 20+ page liner note set....may have to read that in bed tonight.  check the poster and prices for the concert:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_wSq25TQdrL8/SqCrGvPTXYI/AAAAAAAAA2Y/xLOdchL-GCQ/s400/thelonious_monk_quartet_with_john_coltrane_at_carnegie_hall_insert_back.jpg)

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 02, 2011, 06:12:38 PM
I'm usually not one for Coltrane, but I loved his work with Monk and Miles. That recording is outstanding. I'm a huge Monk fan by the way.

QuotePat Boone's In a Metal Mood: No More Mr. Nice Guy was a tongue-in-cheek affair that few were willing to acknowledge. How else was one to explain a 63-year-old pop singer (who hadn't had any hits for over 30 years) suddenly covering '70s hard rock classics? By contrast, guitarist Alex Skolnick, who had enjoyed considerable success as lead guitarist for Testament and later Savatage, deserves kudos for essentially scrapping his rock & roll career to study, learn, and play jazz. Upon leaving Savatage after Handful of Rain Skolnick enrolled in the jazz department of New York's New School University. It was there that he began to formulate his notion of applying jazz arrangements to hard rock songs by Kiss, Aerosmith, Scorpions, Black Sabbath, and the Who. After all, since pop songs from past decades were accepted into the jazz vernacular and have since become standards, why should rock & roll pieces from the '70s and '80s not be treated similarly? Skolnick has a point. In fact if you hadn't heard the original versions of "Detroit Rock City," "Dream On," and "War Pigs," chances are you'd never suspect that they originated as hard rock songs. While Goodbye to Romance is, by and large, a straight-ahead jazz effort recalling the genius of Wes Montgomery, John McLaughlin, and Stanley Jordan, Skolnick unfurls his former rock & roll-isms on a couple of instances; on both the Ozzy Osbourne-penned title track and the Skolnick original "Skol Blues," he reminds you of his previous lifestyle with some lightning-fast guitar solos, however, more in the lines of McLaughlin than the metal tendencies of Testament. A young, empathetic rhythm section of John Graham-Davis and Matt Zebroski on bass and drums was enlisted to assist Skolnick in his ambitious undertaking. They, too, perform impeccably, contributing dutifully to these "standards for a new generation."

Quote from: James on February 03, 2011, 10:26:37 PM
Hey John .. perhaps try another Monk album since his music seems to speak to you already.

[asin]B000000YIQ[/asin]

01 I'm An Old Cowhand (From The Rio Grande) (Johnny Mercer)
02 Solitude (Duke Ellington)
03 Come, Gone (Rollins)
04 Wagon Wheels (Peter DeRose)
05 There Is No Greater Love (Isham Jones)
06 Way Out West (Rollins)

Sonny Rollins tenor saxophone
Ray Brown bass
Shelly Manne drums

Quote from: Bogey on February 03, 2011, 07:04:40 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MTUpn1q%2BL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
1966

Quote from: John on February 03, 2011, 09:35:39 PM
So, anyone know what sounds like Theolonius Monk circa 1958?

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on February 04, 2011, 10:42:00 AM
Unfortunately there really isn't anything that sounds like Monk, especially from around this time, where he's at his most visionary. That's both good and bad, but it speaks to his stature. 

But from what I can determine you seem to be on the lookout for jazz that has something of the "exploratory" or, perhaps, "off the beaten path" to it. IOW, something more colorful and (intellectually?) demanding than simple "straight ahead" jazz.

In that case, your next stop should probably be Charles Mingus. A good place to start is Ah Um (originally on Columbia, now Sony) released in 1959. Further, Mingus's Atlantic and Impulse years come from around this time (and a little later) and are blessed with superb recorded sound. All these are echt Mingus and are just all around good fun!

[asin]B00000I14Z[/asin]

QuoteThe Black Saint and the Sinner Lady is a studio album by American jazz musician Charles Mingus, released on Impulse! Records in 1963. The album consists of a single continuous composition—partially written as a ballet—divided into four tracks and six movements.[1]

The album was recorded on January 20, 1963 by an eleven-piece band made up of Mingus (double bass, piano), Jerome Richardson (soprano and baritone saxophone, flute), Charlie Mariano (alto saxophone), Dick Hafer (tenor saxophone, flute), Rolf Ericson (trumpet), Richard Williams (trumpet), Quentin Jackson (trombone), Don Butterfield (tuba, contrabass trombone), Jaki Byard (piano), Jay Berliner (acoustic guitar) and Dannie Richmond (drums). Bob Thiele served as producer and Bob Simpson as studio engineer.[1]

Mingus has called the album's orchestral style "ethnic folk-dance music". Mingus's perfectionism led to extensive use of studio overdubbing techniques. The album features liner notes written by Mingus and his then-psychotherapist, Dr. Edmund Pollock.[1]

The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady is often characterized by jazz and music critics as one of Mingus's two major masterworks (the other being Mingus Ah Um) and has frequently ranked highly on numerous lists over the best albums of all time. Piero Scaruffi ranked it as the greatest jazz album of all time.[2] Richard Cook and Brian Morton, writers of The Penguin Guide to Jazz, awarded the album a "Crown" token, the publication's highest accolade, in addition to the highest four-star rating.[3] Steve Huey of allmusic awarded The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady five stars out of five and described the album as "one of the greatest achievements in orchestration by any composer in jazz history."[4] As of November 2010, the album is ranked #15 on RateYourMusic's "Top Albums of All-time" list.[

Quote from: James on February 04, 2011, 07:32:31 AM
[asin]B000002I5I[/asin]
01 The Night Has A Thousand Eyes (Buddy Bernier & Jerry Brainin)
02 Central Park West (Coltrane)
03 Liberia (Coltrane)
04 Body And Soul (Johnny Green, Robert Sour, Edward Heyman & Frank Eyton)
05 Equinox (Coltrane)
06 Satellite (Coltrane)

John Coltrane tenor & soprano sax
McCoy Tyner piano
Steve Davis bass
Elvin Jones drums

Quote from: James on February 04, 2011, 11:09:56 AM
Yea .. a classic/simple Coltrane blues tune, covered by many; the whole album is very 'sick' tho.

Quote from: jowcol on February 04, 2011, 10:57:22 AM
Great choice, I'd also suggest Black Saint and the Sinner Lady, which is another one of his best. 

(http://www.kalamu.com/bol/wp-content/content/images/mingus%20black%20saint%20sinner%20lady%20cover.jpg)

Quote from: jowcol on February 04, 2011, 10:57:22 AM
Great choice, I'd also suggest Black Saint and the Sinner Lady, which is another one of his best. 

(http://www.kalamu.com/bol/wp-content/content/images/mingus%20black%20saint%20sinner%20lady%20cover.jpg)

to borrow from Wikipedia:

I'd particularly give kudos to Dannie Richmond's drumming on this one.

Quote from: James on February 04, 2011, 06:21:48 AM
That's a Sonny Rollins album .. it wasn't a suggestion to you, it was what I was listening to.
My suggestion was to try another Monk album lol

Quote from: KevinP on February 03, 2011, 11:16:51 PM
Don't have that one. How is it?

Quote from: Bogey on February 04, 2011, 06:12:44 PM
Listened to:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51jvgMaEAUL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Bought today and now listening to (Thought I saw a rec for this one here, but can't find it now.):

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51x3-NUzQ4L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Quote from: James on February 04, 2011, 12:57:20 PM


And as much as I love Trane, my favorite sax player is Wayne Shorter; not a 'busy' player who plays hordes of notes, but a very very melodic, subtle & creative one .. his huge body of work even before Weather Report has some of jazz's finest albums..I love all of his work tho, right up to his most recent band .. & albums like Atlantis & Joy Ryder are landmark electric albums.

[asin]B00000I8UH[/asin]

01 Witch Hunt
02 Fee-Fi-Fo-Fum
03 Dance Cadaverous
04 Speak No Evil
05 Infant Eyes
06 Wild Flower

Freddie Hubbard trumpet
Wayne Shorter tenor saxophone
Herbie Hancock piano
Ron Carter bass
Elvin Jones drums

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speak_No_Evil

Quote from: James on February 05, 2011, 08:02:53 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41plR7DgIhL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Quote from: James on February 05, 2011, 09:28:15 AM
1997.

Quote from: James on February 05, 2011, 10:40:18 AM
.
[asin]B000000Y64[/asin]

Quote from: KevinP on February 05, 2011, 03:17:34 PM
One of the best Monk albums!

Quote from: Bogey on February 04, 2011, 06:12:44 PM(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51x3-NUzQ4L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Quote from: Bogey on February 05, 2011, 04:00:45 PM
Which is better, him with Griffen at the 5 Note, or the concert with Coltrane at the 5 Note,?

Quote from: Bogey on February 05, 2011, 01:57:01 PM
(http://www.jazz.com/assets/2007/12/24/albumcoverBillEvans-EverybodyDigs.jpg?1198470947)

Evans
Sam Jones: Bass
Philly Joe Jones: Drums

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on February 05, 2011, 08:57:44 PM
[asin]B000006EJ4[/asin]

Quote from: KevinP on February 05, 2011, 11:26:56 PM
As good as that material is. Jamal really spoke to me when I heard his earlier recordings with the guitar trio. The Chamber Music of the New Jazz is stunning.

Quote from: Bogey on February 05, 2011, 10:25:16 AM
Thanks.  From '62

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3008/2554861370_ea53a0e8bc.jpg)

The first album to feature just these four:

Coltrane
Tyner
garrison
Jones

Great album!

Quote from: KevinP on February 08, 2011, 04:08:30 PM
Thelonious Monk: The Complete Blue Note Recordings (four discs)
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000005GYH.01.L.jpg)

Quote from: KevinP on February 08, 2011, 08:53:25 PM
They're his first recordings as a leader, dating from 1947. However, recordings of him as a sideman go back to 1941. Most (maybe all) of those are live dates that happened to be recorded.

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 08, 2011, 08:59:58 PM
Ah interesting, thanks for the information. Monk is one my favorites. I own every one of his recordings. Do you have any favorite albums?

Quote from: Leon on February 06, 2011, 04:34:50 AM
You guys have been listening to a lot of great stuff which is where I usually live jazzwise.

Here's one I come back to often:

[asin]B000F8DT50[/asin]

With Red Garland, Art Taylor and Paul Chambers.

Quote from: James on February 11, 2011, 05:15:31 PM
.
[asin]B0002NRREW[/asin]

01 The Ruby and the Pearl (Ray Evans, Jay Livingston)
02 Reika's Loss (Jeff "Tain" Watts)
03 Gloomy Sunday (László Jávor, Sam M. Lewis, Rezso Seress)
04 The Lonely Swan (Joey Calderazzo)
05 Dinner for One Please, James (Michael Carr)
06 Muldoon (Eric Revis)
07 Eternal" (Marsalis)

Branford Marsalis saxophones
Joey Calderazzo piano
Eric Revis bass
Jeff "Tain" Watts drums

WIKI - Eternal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_(Branford_Marsalis_album))

Quote from: James on February 14, 2011, 03:15:10 PM
.
[asin]B00005AREP[/asin]

01 Led Boots (Middleton)
02 Come Dancing (Walden)
03 Goodbye Pork Pie Hat (Mingus)
04 Head for Backstage Pass (Bascomb,Clark)
05 Blue Wind (Hammer)
06 Sophie (Walden)
07 Play With Me (Walden)
08 Love Is Green (Walden)

Jeff Beck guitars
Max Middleton clavinet, Fender Rhodes
Jan Hammer synthesizer, drums (5)
Wilbur Bascomb bass
Narada Michael Walden drums (1,2,6,7), piano on 8
Richard Bailey drums (3,4)
Ed Green drums (2)

WIKI - Wired (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wired_(album))

Quote from: James on February 13, 2011, 06:06:15 AM
.
[asin]B0000C24KF[/asin]

01 Blues for New Orleans (Ellington)
02 Bourbon Street Jingling Jollies (Ellington)
03 Portrait of Louis Armstrong (Ellington)
04 Thanks for the Beautiful Land on the Delta (Ellington)
05 Portrait of Wellman Braud (Ellington)
06 Second Line (Ellington)
07 Portrait of Sidney Bechet (Ellington)
08 Aristocracy a la Jean Lafitte (Ellington)
09 Portrait of Mahalia Jackson (Ellington)

Duke Ellington piano, arranger
Cootie Williams, Frank Stone trumpet
Money Johnson, Al Rubin trumpet (1,2,4,6,8)
Cat Anderson trumpet (3,5,7,9)
Booty Wood, Julian Priester trombone
Malcolm Taylor bass trombone (1,2,4,6,8)
Chuck Connors bass trombone (3,5,7,9)
Russell Procope alto saxophone, clarinet
Johnny Hodges alto saxophone (1,2,4,6,8)
Norris Turney clarinet, alto saxophone, flute
Harold Ashby clarinet, tenor saxophone
Paul Gonsalves tenor saxophone
Harry Carney clarinet, bass clarinet, baritone saxophone
Wild Bill Davis organ
Joe Benjamin bass
Rufus Jones drums

WIKI - New Orleans Suite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Orleans_Suite)

Quote from: Bogey on February 14, 2011, 06:17:22 PM
You have my attention with this one , James.  Your thoughts.

Quote from: James on February 14, 2011, 02:53:22 AM
.
[asin]B0012GMV6W[/asin]

01 Flight Over Rio (Mingo Lewis)
02 Midnight Tango
03 Mediterranean Sundance
04 Race With Devil on Spanish Highway
05 Lady of Rome, Sister of Brazil
06 Elegant Gypsy Suite

Al Di Meola electric & acoustic guitars, piano, percussion
Paco de Lucia acoustic guitar (3)
Anthony Jackson bass
Jan Hammer keyboards, synthesizer (1,6)
Mingo Lewis percussion, keyboard, synthesizer
Barry Miles piano, keyboards (2,4)
Steve Gadd drums (1,6)
Lenny White drums (2,4)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elegant_Gypsy

Quote from: Grazioso on February 16, 2011, 09:38:11 AM
What is the difference between a blues musician and a jazz musician?
A blues musician plays 3 chords in front of a 1000 people. A jazz musician plays a 1000 chords in front of three people.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 18, 2011, 03:26:35 PM
First-listen Fridays, some more:

[asin]B000UDQR4U[/asin]

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 18, 2011, 04:20:55 PM
One of my favorite Monk recordings.

Quote from: Dax on February 20, 2011, 02:08:39 AM
Discussion about jazz seems to have disappeared from this thread.

A pity, that.

Most of the recent posts seem to be spam.

Why so?

Quote from: Leon on March 25, 2011, 08:10:28 AM
I have the 6-CD set - and find it fantastic; a brilliant line up of musicians creating jazz at a very high level.

Quote from: Apollon on March 30, 2011, 05:55:46 AM
Maynard & the boys, Chameleon

[asin]B00009VU2Z[/asin]

Quote from: Leon on March 30, 2011, 06:33:08 AM
Not Copenhagen but, I've got some of that period with In Stockholm: 1960 Complete  (http://www.amazon.com/Stockholm-Miles-Davis/dp/B00000AW2R/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1301495345&sr=1-2) .  Wynton Kelly is in the group. 

I haven't heard the Copenhagen 1960 live recording, but from what I have read it is great.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 16, 2011, 10:01:43 AM
First listen:

[asin]B00005MIZ4[/asin]

None of it any unknown quantity, to be sure.

It all flies by, I notice today.  21 tracks, and the longest runs 3'20.  It's all good, but at the end I feel, what was the hurry?

I don't mean the pace of the music itself, which is always vibrant, self-recommending.

Quote from: James on June 24, 2011, 05:48:53 PM
01 On Green Dolphin Street
02 Fran Dance
03 Stella By Starlight
04 Love For Sale
05 Straight, No Chaser
06 My Funny Valentine
07 Oleo

[asin]B0000027R5[/asin]
Miles Davis – trumpet
Julian "Cannonball" Adderley – alto saxophone
John Coltrane – tenor saxophone
Bill Evans – piano
Paul Chambers – bass
Jimmy Cobb – drums

Quote from: James on March 29, 2011, 05:54:12 PM
Not me,  over 9 minutes and it's got to have A LOT more to keep me listening ..

Quote from: Mirror Image on June 24, 2011, 09:37:55 PM
I hate to say this but listening to classical about 99% of the time for the past two years has weaned me off of jazz music. Don't get me wrong, I still love the greats like Monk, Miles, Evans, Duke, Kenton, Blakey, Getz, Brubeck, but I'm finding that I haven't returned to much of this music at all.

Quote from: James on June 25, 2011, 04:40:32 AM
Yea .. (for the most part) gotta agree.

Not really .. the more and more one is immersed in the great depth & breadth that is 'western art music', the more & more one will clearly see how this 20th century music they call "jazz" can't hold a candle to it and is a completely narrow (and rather crude) affair in comparison.

p.s. i own and love quite a bit of jazz but one has to be clear-headed and realistic as possible about these things.

Quote from: Grazioso on June 25, 2011, 04:18:29 AM
Don't worry, you'll realize the things classical music is missing and return to jazz, too  ;D

Quote from: James on June 25, 2011, 08:23:03 AM
A personal favorite .. these guys are playing improvised rock music. Just like Zeppelin, they were approaching rock with a very jazz mentality.

01 Who Knows
02 Machine Gun
03 Changes
04 Power to Love
05 Message to Love
06 We Gotta Live Together

[asin]B000002UVX[/asin]
Jimi Hendrix - guitar, vocals
Buddy Miles - bass, vocals
Billy Cox - drums, vocals

Quote from: James on June 25, 2011, 07:11:06 AM
We're not talking 'styles' .. we're talking 'music', quality, breadth & depth in all parameters. It's not 'strange' at all to hear & clearly realize things for what they are, it's a very easy conclusion to come to in fact; with enough prolonged exposure.

Quote from: Mirror Image on June 25, 2011, 07:25:27 AM
I know you're joking around, but, in all honesty, I don't think classical music is missing anything or I would obviously be listening to something else. For me, jazz doesn't get off the ground very much, whereas classical seems to be apart of some other cosmic hierarchy.

Quote from: James on June 25, 2011, 11:58:19 AM
You honestly don't seem too clued-in on much. Case & point, you are unaware of what music is and have to ask what it's parameters are. And you can't fathom and seem totally unaware of musical time & history as a whole (breadth/depth). Add to that, that whenever we have a discussion like this you think it must be approached in an objective 'prove it to me' analytical scientific manor (for "it to be fact") which is absolutely daft. (again, you're oblivious to musical time & history, unaware-of what has actually occurred) Furthermore, your lack of insight & understanding is reinforced often by your comments and choices from what I see on this board.

Quote from: James on June 25, 2011, 12:42:04 PM
Yea .. there is tonnes out there, but don't be fooled by that, or the numerous 'name tags' people stick on all of it ... it actually dwarfs comparatively to the musical breadth & depth that one is to find in the vast & expansive western art music legacy.

Quote from: James on June 26, 2011, 04:31:38 AM
(chuckles) .. on a board such as this, you still need that? really? .. where the very earliest of the legacy all through to the relatively current music and developments are posted about quite frequently. Hit the library I don't have time to educate you, do that .. and then maybe we can have a level talk.

Quote from: James on June 26, 2011, 05:55:46 AM
tremendous left-hand reach and ultra-lyrical whammy touch ..

Quote from: James on June 26, 2011, 07:03:29 AM
Have you listened to Allan Holdsworth? (you should)

Do you know what a whammy bar is?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whammy_bar

Quote from: James on June 26, 2011, 06:05:25 AM
Not required at all. Look around the board, you'll find a lot here that is evidence enough if you're so totally in the dark about it all.

Quote from: James on June 26, 2011, 07:58:48 AM
I wasn't asking you.

Quote
No analysis necessary.

Quote from: Grazioso on June 25, 2011, 11:30:28 AM
For fans of ECM-style Euro jazz:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/510Q929CLmL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

These guys are impressive. They were playing with Tomasz Stanko for a number of years.

http://www.youtube.com/v/jeIwfde-Okg

Quote from: Mirror Image on June 26, 2011, 08:28:15 AM
Yes, and their recordings with Tomasz Stanko still impress me, especially this one:

[asin]B0000V765G[/asin]

Quote from: James on June 26, 2011, 08:32:49 AM
Oh but I have, I've been listening to it and absorbing it my whole life, everyday .. which is the same.

On this board which is like a microcosm of the legacy itself you see it all .. people discussing and listening to the huge polyphonic beautiful vocal edifices of the earliest music right through to pure electronic music composed in multiple channels to be projected in complete surround sound over booming loudspeakers & beyond, and virtually everything musical in-between from all periods & eras - all parameters exhausted & covered, right down to the atoms themselves. From the most ancient musics to where truly the newest of the new 'in music' is to be found and consolidated. A musical legacy of richness, breadth & depth that is truly extraordinary, unequalled and expanding as I type this ..

QuoteI've been listening to it and absorbing it my whole life, everyday .. which is the same.

Quote from: James on June 26, 2011, 11:29:28 AM
I never said 'diversity' = depth. If you don't understand what breadth & depth implies with regards to the accumulation of western art music over that great stretch of time than you're a lost cause. 

What's not correct? Again, you have troubles simply reading what I actually said. It's a very basic simple point I am making, analysis isn't required to understand it.

Quote from: Grazioso on June 27, 2011, 04:49:02 AM
I would say rather that you're the lost cause. I (or others) try to have a rational discussion with you, and you fall back on the same vague generalities and ad hominems instead of engaging in intelligent discourse.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 27, 2011, 05:00:08 AM
Thanks for reminding me to revisit this soul-restorative chuckle (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,18249.msg503521.html#msg503521).

Quote from: James on June 29, 2011, 09:35:36 AM
I can't have an intelligent discussion with a total moron, I'd say your I.Q. is definitely in the low 70s.

Quote from: James on June 30, 2011, 02:57:04 PM
You're the total imbecile trying complicate things with a bunch of nothing when you don't even understand the very basic point I was making - that is, that the western art music legacy is one of unparalled breadth and depth. Asking me to prove or justify to you what that breadth or depth entails in relation to that simple point, proves to me that you are a big big dummy who refuses to think at all. Plus you 'claim' to be an amateur musician who plays? Wow .. an intelligent discussion is a non-starter with your ilk.

Quote from: Grazioso on June 26, 2011, 10:58:17 AM
I love that album. Which brings me to its successor, with Stanko's young Finnish band:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41eQpSubrtL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I still haven't warmed to this one despite repeated listens. Seems a bit too brittle and sparse and maybe even directionless, and the guitarist seems underutilized. OTOH, perhaps nice music for a film noir...

Quote from: Grazioso on July 01, 2011, 04:48:18 AM
Thanks. More of his recordings with Wasilewski and Co. are on my "to hear" list. I just hope his future recordings with his new group have a little more life to them.

Have you heard any Komeda (with whom Stanko played)?

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 01, 2011, 07:54:52 AM
Celebrating Canada Day with a blast from the High School Daze past:

[asin]B00000273G[/asin]

Quote from: James on June 26, 2011, 08:32:49 AM
Oh but I have, I've been listening to it and absorbing it my whole life, everyday .. which is the same.

On this board which is like a microcosm of the legacy itself you see it all .. people discussing and listening to the huge polyphonic beautiful vocal edifices of the earliest music right through to pure electronic music composed in multiple channels to be projected in complete surround sound over booming loudspeakers & beyond, and virtually everything musical in-between from all periods & eras - all parameters exhausted & covered, right down to the atoms themselves. From the most ancient musics to where truly the newest of the new 'in music' is to be found and consolidated. A musical legacy of richness, breadth & depth that is truly extraordinary, unequalled and expanding as I type this ..

Quote from: jowcol on July 12, 2011, 03:57:42 AM
Truly, as I read this , it's the music of the spheres.  Yea, long I've wandered in the desert, looking for that still, quiet voice...

Quote from: James on July 09, 2011, 11:50:57 AM
01 Jean-Pierre
02 Back Seat Betty
03 Fast Track
04 Jean-Pierre
05 My Man's Gone Now
06 Kix

[asin]B000026KPV[/asin]
Miles Davis - trumpet
Marcus Miller - fender bass
Bill Evans - soprano sax
Mike Stern - guitar
Al Foster - drums
Mino Cinelu - percussion

Quote from: AllegroVivace on July 16, 2011, 06:53:32 AM
Thelonious Monk, the most original jazz pianist, in my opinion.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIkmNNmAnAM

Quote from: escher on July 16, 2011, 08:46:41 AM
one of the greatest musicians in the last century for sure

Quote from: James on July 16, 2011, 04:06:02 AM
Ouch. First off, Jack should never play funk. Chick sounds weak. And the use of percussion sounds unmusical, like they are just picking up their toys and wiggling them around and hollering etc. I have the DVD documentary that that is from .. got it when it was released back in 2004.

[asin]B00069FKN2[/asin]

Quote from: Leon on July 18, 2011, 06:21:54 AM

Miles, not Monk, is the "Stravinsky of jazz" - at least in my opinion.

Quote from: James on July 18, 2011, 03:01:50 PM
Monk is song-book and never really changed things up as much as Miles did .. Miles did song-book too, but had a wider conception over the trajectory of his career. Next to Stravinsky tho (or any major composer) they're narrow affairs .. so the comparison-parallel is truly a nonstarter. They were good a their own little things but ..

Quote from: James on July 18, 2011, 03:22:57 PM
Miles had a keen ear for assembling the players together .. and from there things would happen.

Quote from: James on July 18, 2011, 03:22:57 PM
Monk was unique within his own little song-book, rhythmically static scope,

Quote from: James on July 18, 2011, 03:22:57 PM
but neither really come close to Stravinsky on a musical level. They'd both attest to that, any jazz musician would.

Quote from: James on July 18, 2011, 03:53:33 PM
It's all very narrow (song-book) and homophonic, and he wasn't the greatest player either technically. He spoke with a narrower musical vocabulary and is narrower in all musical parameters next to 'art music'. Monk had his own voice tho, but just because of that I wouldn't stretch that to 'one of the great musicians of the last century'. That's a bit much. I can think of musicians that are much much greater and deeper. Stravinsky being one of course, but also Anton Webern or Bela Bartok ... and Ligeti too etc etc etc

Quote from: James on July 18, 2011, 04:10:44 PM
I'm not afraid of electric jazz .. there is a fair share of it that is much more diverse than anything Monk did. I love Monk tho but I wouldn't make grandiose claims about him, he was what he was, and did well in his own little scope. The difference between me and you is probably (tho I could be wrong) is that I have explored Monk, Electric Jazz, Boulez & Stockhausen with a vengeance and quite extensively .. tho i love things from all, and can see them for what they are .. i can say very easily that what the composers have done is musically is on a whole other level in all areas of music, leagues beyond .. anything you will hear in 'jazz', acoustic or electric.

Quote from: James on July 18, 2011, 04:32:34 PM
well .. his scope was 'narrower' and his lack of technique no doubt hinders musical possibilities.

Quote from: James on July 18, 2011, 04:32:34 PM
And I don't hear those things when I listen to Monk; those are feelings, associations and impressions that you are projecting onto the music. He did have his own voice tho, if that's what you're referring to - there are many composers who had that as well.

Quote from: James on July 18, 2011, 04:48:50 PM
So you read that extra-musical verbage and then listen for it?
.. I never read that stuff, (and if i have, i ignore it) I just listen to the music minus that 'baggage', so I get other things.  And there are SO many composers who have their own voice, come on.

Quote from: Mirror Image on July 18, 2011, 05:23:44 PM
Miles was great. Monk was great. The end.

Quote from: Leon on July 19, 2011, 04:49:34 AM
. . . a narcissistic perception that your own personal taste and powers of analysis authorize you to define reality.

Quote from: James on July 19, 2011, 08:44:28 AM
For the 3rd time now, every musician is doing the same thing - they are creating music.

Quote from: AllegroVivace on July 19, 2011, 02:47:37 PM
It's originality of Monk's improvisations that matters to me. Monk plays the piano the way old people type on computer keyboards, but he is able to produce sophisticated musical ideas. Sometimes the best innovations are made when the artists lack 'proper' training.

Quote from: jowcol on July 19, 2011, 06:15:20 PM


In terms of a Jazz "Stravinsky"-- the term was applied to Ellington, who managed to reinvent his sound several times. (I'm particularly fond of some of his 60's and 70's work).

Quote from: jowcol on July 19, 2011, 06:15:20 PM
If Monk speaks to you, that's more than enough reason to pursue his music.  I like and admire him, but I can't say the light bulb goes on over my head like it does with say, the John Coltrane Quartet.  But that's just they way I'm wired.

In terms of a Jazz "Stravinsky"-- the term was applied to Ellington, who managed to reinvent his sound several times. (I'm particularly fond of some of his 60's and 70's work).  Although, to borrow a good point from James's responses, much of Ellington's talent, like Miles,  was recognizing it in others and coming up with the best settings. I don't think either of them were the control freak that a Stravinsky was in specifying a sound. 

Also, I see Monk more like a Webern if I had to draw a 20th century "classical" analog, in that I see him more as honing a personal style than reinventing himself every few years and playing off of emerging sounds from other musicians. 

I'd consider Mingus on the short list of candidates for the "Jazz Stravinsky"-- not that he had the endurance and series of phases of a Miles or Ellington, but was more of a "pure" composer than either Ellington or Miles, in my book.  I'd probably take "The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady" if I only had one Mingus album in my collection.

http://www.youtube.com/v/17KTUqLyNcU

Quote from: AllegroVivace on July 19, 2011, 06:57:16 PM
I agree with everything you said, except I'm afraid I don't view Ellington as a musician who reinvented himself several times. I feel most of his works follow the same path, consistently capitalizing on his signature style. He's definitely one of my favorite jazz musicians, but not a "Stravinsky"... maybe a "Sibelius", if we continue these analogies.

Quote from: escher on July 19, 2011, 10:20:10 PM
Black saint is probably my favorite too. The last extended part sounds a bit frayed to me, but it's a great album. Anyway the comparison Monk/Webern is not bad at all.

Quote from: jowcol on July 20, 2011, 03:42:48 AM
Although I don't think Ellington is as extreme as Miles in terms shifting styles, he did go from shorter works to suites in the 50s,

Quote from: jowcol on July 19, 2011, 01:29:54 PM
(http://the-wanderling.com/buddha04.gif)

*the eerie tone of a lone flute darts around the breeze in the shadow of the waving lotus blossoms. *

I think I've just had my third eye opened, and all of my Chakras purged in a blinding flash of Satori!   I've never stopped to think that musicians made music.   Just think what this revelation can lead to!

Quote from: James on July 20, 2011, 08:38:51 AM
Ellington kind-of evolved .. he was certainly more of a composer than Miles ever was .. it certainly wasn't as free/rambling as Miles got. But he doesn't really touch Stravinsky either, it's a bankrupt comparison on all levels (no one in jazz comes close) .. and you can tell that Ellingtion (like Mingus) really aspired and was influenced by the major composers .. but the results weren't ever close.

Webern? Wow .. that's a stretch of the imagination, he's nowhere near that. These comparisons are funny imo.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 20, 2011, 08:11:13 AM
Interesting timing! Just now loaded Ah Um into the tray:

[asin]B00000I14Z[/asin]

Quote from: James on July 20, 2011, 01:53:17 PM
he tried things .. not much in the way of progress .. and it's way behind what the major composers were/are doing.

Quote from: James on July 20, 2011, 01:51:26 PM
... i don't take it seriously per se, but it is kind-of funny and amusing how off base the thinking is here; and it's all music .. the tags are meaningless remember, it's all creating music ..

Quote from: jowcol on July 21, 2011, 04:00:58 AM
Yes!   I've earned the coveted "Off Base" award!  This could either mean that

A:  He imparting his knowledge of my fall from grace as part of an effort to unbirth my ego so that I may find my "inner James"
       http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,18249.msg503335.html#msg503335 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,18249.msg503335.html#msg503335)
B:  I'm one step closer in winning a game of "James Bingo", and I I need is a "pfft" to cash in.

Either way, I'm enriched by the  experience.

Quote from: Leon on July 21, 2011, 05:57:20 AM
Okay...

Quote from: Leon on July 21, 2011, 05:57:20 AM
do not care if someone will think I am unsophisticated because I prefer jazz to classical music - them's just the facts.

Quote from: Leon on July 21, 2011, 05:57:20 AM
Okay, let's use your context, "it's all music" - no labels, just music.  Then I can say without a shred of doubt that Miles Davis, Monk, Coltrane, Ellington, and many others make music of much more importance to me than anything done by Boulez, Stockhausen and even Stravinsky.  I have listened to nothing but my collection of Miles recordings for a solid month and never gotten tired of the music he was making or felt like listening to something else.  I've done the same with Mozart, but for few other musicians or composers, can I say the same thing - least of all Stockhausen, Boulez or Stravinsky, although Stravinsky's music offers more to me than either of the other two.  Having said that, I am deeply interested in what Stockhausen and Boulez do, and enjoy their work immensely.  But if pressed, and from a purely personal perspective they cannot hold a candle to Miles or jazz in general - of course, all of this is entirely IMHO.  I have nothing to prove to anyone and do not care if someone will think I am unsophisticated because I prefer jazz to classical music - them's just the facts.

:D

I get the impression that you seem to value "thinking" or the process of composing above other values, possibly over all other values.

I don't. 

Since it's all music, then what I react to is the music - unadorned, without focusing on the knowledge of  how it was created, i.e. what process was used, whether it was written using the major-minor system, or a serial technique or it is improvised music from the jazz tradition.  I like the way jazz sounds and feels more than serial music, and almost all other kinds of music.  Some classical era composers stand along side Miles or Coltrane or Monk in my world, especially Mozart - but I cannot think of many others.  The enjoyment I get from jazz is vastly different, and really much preferable for me, than the enjoyment I get from classical music.

Frankly I prefer almost any jazz to most classical music.  But listen to and enjoy both, and at varous times of my life I have listened to one or the other more, or Brazilian music, or Blues, or singer-songwriters, or Country, etc.  It's all music; and it's all good - and all of these styles are sui generis and it is a waste of time (to me, but obviously not to you) to compare one to the other.

8)

Quote from: jowcol on July 21, 2011, 10:46:10 AM

I'd venture to say that SOME of us have figured out the IMHO part of this already.

I think that, from my experience, the worth of a given type of music depends on the kind of experience I want to have, so that "good" and "bad" are a matter of context.  I think that what you said about how the "type" of  enjoyment you get from different types varies by genre.  I'd agree. 

I tend to like my improvised music on the rough side-- spontaneity,  groove, and communication between the players is what I'm looking for, and I don't mind the periodic glitches if the "feel" is alive.  Most "classical" music, even if it has improvised sections, doesn't deliver that experience to me. Similarly, for my blues (and I'm a voracious listener of blues), I don't look for anybody taking the form to new levels or pushing their composition skills-- I see it as a performance art form, and the most important thing is to open up a vein and let the feeling flow.  Too much production  can kill the spark I'm looking for.  Trying to put too much control on it, for me, kills the beast.   Jazz and blues that is overly planned reminds me of a very meek person I knew who bought a motorcycle, but never rode it-- he bought a trailer so that he could carry it around.

Even in terms of the classics, my needs have changed over the last few decades, and lately I'm listening mostly to composers that I have only discovered recently-- I'm not spending as much time Stravinsky, Bartok, Prokofiev, and some of the other "faves" I cut my teeth on. I'm not saying they are any less valuable to me-- I just need to discover new stuff.  When people get into comparative music discussions, you can tell which people are looking to expand their circle of knowledge, and which ones are building a taller wall around what they are comfortable with.

I would not sell short the admonition that "it's all just music".   One of my favorite Zen quotes is: "My miracle is that when I feel hungry I eat, and when I feel thirsty I drink."

Quote from: James on July 21, 2011, 04:22:50 PM
The harmonies used in "jazz" don't compare at all .. and are far far behind .. (as are all parameters)

Quote from: James on July 22, 2011, 03:03:08 AM
vs. art music .. harmonies in jazz are child's play and far far far behind, musical backwater ..  and it's virtually all homophonic too. with the great knowledge and theory the composers have, noodling through chord changes is a piece of cake .. nothing particularly interesting or challenging about that!

Quote from: James on July 22, 2011, 03:03:08 AM
vs. art music .. harmonies in jazz are child's play and far far far behind, musical backwater ..  and it's virtually all homophonic too. with the great knowledge and theory the composers have, noodling through chord changes is a piece of cake .. nothing particularly interesting or challenging about that!

Quote from: Leon on July 22, 2011, 04:40:16 AM
You have a very limited understanding of music.

Quote from: Leon on July 22, 2011, 05:43:57 AM
Well, I don't think James is a troll.  And I do think he offers some good information about music, but my comment was meant to say that he consistently offers information about one aspect of music, namely the cerebral, technical aspect. 

Quote from: escher on July 22, 2011, 06:05:19 AM
I don't agree: actually James has two refrains: classical is always better and more sophisticated than jazz or any other musical form, ALWAYS (as it was possible to compare thousand and thousand of persons only because they made a genre of music, but hey! No tags!), and "i'm smarter than all of you" (said withouth any sense of the ridiculous). Actually he doesn't say anything about technical aspects. But i agree with you that to compare music thinking only of techinical aspects is totally meaningless. Even more because in jazz improvisation and swing are central aspects (and very sophisticated things to do).

Quote from: jowcol on July 22, 2011, 11:46:33 AM

I don't think he qualifies as a troll, and he isn't always limited to the two refrains.   

As some who has not been shy about poking fun at his more "automatic" responses, I'll have to acknowledge that there are times he provides some thoughtful responses that  advance the conversation.  During some of the whole Miles Vs Zawinul Improv vs Composition discussion on this thread many moons ago, there where some very thoughtful replies that were more than just a knee-jerk reply drawn from a set of themes that I've catalogued to death.  (Or at least the text-tagging software I was using to analyze it) I agree with his assessment of Miles on this recent part of the thread.

But , although this last spate of responses doesn't seem to advance the discussion beyond that idea that he may have a notion of art music or higher consciousness that we do not,  I fully support his right to post them.   One can choose to get offended, to ignore them, or , in some cases, find them both funny and utterly fascinating.  (I confess to the latter--  I sometimes wonder if this is  Turing test).

As far as the "Classical is always harder than Jazz" -- Miles's description of trying to get classical musicians to play on the Sketches of Spain sections may offer some counterpoint to the discussion.

Quote from: jowcol on July 22, 2011, 11:46:33 AM
As far as the "Classical is always harder than Jazz" -- Miles's description of trying to get classical musicians to play on the Sketches of Spain sections may offer some counterpoint to the discussion.

Quote from: James on July 24, 2011, 04:42:51 AM
Musicians who play "jazz" are more influenced by art music and stand in awe of it. They draw from that huge legacy, there is no denying or escaping it. It has been around much longer, remember - and it's practice is much more rigorous, advanced and evolved. Not to mention, focused. Everything truly new in music is to occur there. If you listen to pop musicians like Ellington, Mingus etc. you can clearly here an influence, a desire to reach higher levels .. they dabbled in serious composition & technique but none of their efforts compare and the application is unskilled, derivative & simplistic.

Quote from: James on July 24, 2011, 04:42:51 AM
Musicians who play "jazz" are more influenced by art music and stand in awe of it. 

Quote
no denying or escaping it. It has been around much longer, remember - and it's practice is much more rigorous, advanced and evolved. Not to mention, focused.

Quote
Everything truly new in music is to occur there.

Quote
most virtuosic of jazz players don't have what it takes on a musical or technical level, to come up with (write) .. let alone
play music on that level.

Quote from: James on July 24, 2011, 05:50:16 AM
Improvising has existed since the earliest music was made .. it's nothing new, all the great masters were improvisers. Jazz's usage of it is nothing new either. And you can compare music that is made that way with music that is carefully thought out and written. Obviously improvising will fall short .. and will have to work within much simpler & narrower parameters.

Quote from: James on July 24, 2011, 05:50:16 AM
None of the composers we have mentioned are known as merely 'technicians'. Nope. And yes, many jazz (& pop) musicians have achieved their own little voice. Matching the best composers in musical profundity? Nah ..

Quote from: Grazioso on July 24, 2011, 06:00:22 AM
Verifying that would require a huge amount of biographical research on both side of the supposed divide.

How so? You referred earlier to jazz musicians "noodling," and while some bad ones probably do, if you feel that's what most jazz musicians are doing, you don't understand jazz and therefore can't judge it. People who hear jazz and complain about noodling or lack of a melody are a) approaching it with the wrong expectations and b) musically unaware.

In traditional changes-based jazz, the musicians need to have an extensive grasp of harmony since it's more elaborate than just about any pop, and a good amount of classical music, for that matter. Jazz is built almost exclusively on 7th chords with extensions/tensions and alterations, the harmonic rhythm can be very fast, and key changes are par for the course. To understand how those progressions and chords are built, how to reharmonize them (tritone subs, etc.), and knowing what can be played over each one requires a heck of a lot of theoretical and practical knowledge. Quick--what scale would mesh with a Maj7#5 chord? You have .1 seconds to remember and then play something interesting that will work over an improvised bass line :D

Quote from: James on July 24, 2011, 06:34:28 AM
it's all derivative & simplistic by comparison, and is in no way as evolved at all. S

Quote from: James on July 24, 2011, 06:34:28 AM
There is no divide, it's all music in the end .. western art music is like a giant musical ocean that has existed for centuries tho ..

Quote
read my reply to escher above. Everything you hear in jazz wasn't created in a vacuum .. it's all derivative & simplistic by comparison, and is in no way as evolved at all. Sorry .. but nothing you say here will ever change those realities.

Quote from: James on July 24, 2011, 12:19:08 PM
They are .. the serious ones have a deep reverence for it and realize it's the best. The best of it is ultimate testament to what the art-form is capable of achieving .. and it's the ultimate source of musical riches. Jazz is so primitive & terribly old fashioned in comparison.

Quote from: James on July 24, 2011, 04:43:49 PM
Art music isn't "my phrase" .. it's been used for awhile now. Google it. You're totally lost on all of this I'm afraid.

Quote from: escher on July 24, 2011, 07:27:55 AM
Ornette Coleman is derivative of what or who?
Louis Armstrong is derivative of what?
Charlie Parker is derivative of what?
Thelonious Monk is derivative of what?
Sun ra is derivative of what?

It's too simple to make always the same reply, tell me who are the classical composers that those musicians are copying (or their classical "inspiration").

Quote from: Leon on July 24, 2011, 12:24:14 PM
1st, no one stands "in awe" of any music - great musicians know good music from bad, but they are masters at what they do and are not awed by other kinds of music. 

Quote from: Leon on July 24, 2011, 06:17:05 PM
"Art music" is a phrase (not universally used), but I am not lost on any of this I'm afraid.

Quote from: Leon on July 24, 2011, 10:40:02 AM
Both jazz and classical are best, IMO, when they stick to their own traditions and don't try to crossover into the other territory.  Jazz and classical are musics with deep traditions and a musician is foolish to think they can credibly convey ether one with only a superficial experience with it.

Quote from: jowcol on July 25, 2011, 11:11:15 AM
Interesting point-- I tend to feel the same about blues and a lot of third world music.   

One thing I liked about the liner notes to Ellington's Far East Suite is that he made it clear that there was not attempt to directly copy any of the eastern sources, since that would end up sounding like an academic exercise.  Instead, the music on that album is intended to be how it is perceived through their own filter of experience and capability.

Quote from: jowcol on July 25, 2011, 10:55:11 AM
Leon-  I'd have to agree with James that you are totally lost on this one. 

Art Music = Music James Likes
Derivative or Pop = Music James doesn't like.

and I for one do stand "in awe" of sweeping generalizations...

Quote from: jowcol on July 25, 2011, 11:03:51 AM
This may be a bit rad, but I'll try to return to the original theme here.  A fave jazz "composer" of mine is Duke Pearson-- I'm not sure if one could claim he set the world on fire, but I've gotten a lot of enjoyment out of some of his works

Quote from: Grazioso on July 25, 2011, 11:14:21 AM
Leon, it's vital that you realize the depth and breadth of art music and don't fall for that songbook jazz pap. May I recommend this Jamesian guide, edited by our own Jowcol? A scholarly masterpiece that presents wisdom for the ages in an accessible manner. Illustrated.

Quote from: Mirror Image on July 25, 2011, 01:13:28 PM
I also love Horace Silver. Man, he's pinned some good tunes: The Natives Are Restless Tonight, Song For My Father, Calcutta Cutie, Cape Verdean Blues, Cool Eyes, Shirl, Senor Blues, Peace, Sister Sadie, Blowin' The Blues Away,etc.

Quote from: escher on July 25, 2011, 01:39:32 PM
i totally love Senor blues and especially Shirl (so different from the common idea of Silver as the funk/hard bop musician par excellence). What a beautiful piece.

Quote from: escher on July 25, 2011, 01:39:32 PM
i totally love Senor blues and especially Shirl (so different from the common idea of Silver as the funk/hard bop musician par excellence). What a beautiful piece.

Quote from: James on July 25, 2011, 06:09:23 PM
They all have their own little voice, working within their own little narrow parameters .. this includes Holdsworth.

Quote from: James on July 28, 2010, 07:37:25 AM
Lifetime's Emergency! is great ... but Believe It with Allan Holdsworth (a genius on the guitar) is tops.

Quote from: James on July 25, 2011, 06:18:16 PM
It is widely used .. so it's not 'my phrase' .. and you are lost on everything we have been talking about here.

Quote from: James on July 25, 2011, 06:40:57 PM
God .. you ever notice how so much 'traditional jazz'  has so little variation.

Quote from: James on July 24, 2011, 12:35:38 PM
It's all music was my point, erase the 'tags' and look at the musical result .. i like some good jazz as much as the next guy but it doesn't stack up at all. Not even close. But then again, no form of popular music does, including film pastiche.

Quote from: James on July 25, 2011, 06:40:57 PM
God .. you ever notice how so much 'traditional jazz'  has so little variation.

Quote from: jowcol on July 26, 2011, 03:45:15 AM
It's true.  We are all totally lost-- waiting for the CHOSEN ONE to save us from mediocre and insubstantial music, and to guide us, in his infinite wisdom, only to listen to the most demanding, non commercial music-- like Weather Report!

Quote from: James on July 25, 2011, 06:15:49 PM
Like I said i am a jazz fan but it's based on nothing new at all ..

Quote from: Grazioso on July 26, 2011, 05:53:20 AM
Verily, thou shalt acquire true wisdom in Teen Town.

(http://biblepictures.ca/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/the-tower-of-babel.jpg)

Quote from: Leon on July 26, 2011, 11:19:04 AM
This album, something I've listening probably a thousand times never gets tiresome.  Right now, listening to All Blues and I am struck by the restraint and slow burn of the track.  This song and arrangement has been covered countless times, but few rise to the level of the one on this recording:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51UVX5HKIiL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Quote from: James on July 26, 2011, 02:47:53 PMi  never really think about music in those manufactured terms at all. It's all music.

Quote from: James on July 26, 2011, 02:47:53 PM
I don't even like the word "jazz" to be honest, it's absolutely meaningless if you think about it, it's just a tag that has stuck but .. and i  never really think about music in those manufactured terms at all. It's all music.

Quote from: James on May 24, 2010, 02:01:49 PM
be careful not to contradict yourself with bullshit now ...

Quote from: James on July 26, 2011, 02:47:53 PM
I don't even like the word "jazz" to be honest, it's absolutely meaningless if you think about it, it's just a tag that has stuck but

Quote from: James on July 27, 2011, 02:37:34 AM
all 'tags' are meaningless ..

Quote from: James on July 27, 2011, 02:55:51 AM
I was talking music.

Quote from: James on July 27, 2011, 02:37:34 AM
all 'tags' my posts are meaningless ..

Quote from: James on July 27, 2011, 02:49:12 AM
Elitism / elites is like some awful dirty word that gets bandied around by politically correct automatons. My perspective is that if it weren't for elites, we'd all be in the gutter, except there wouldn't be a gutter to be in because cause the idea of a gutter quite probably originated from an elite.

Quote from: James on July 24, 2011, 06:34:28 AM
western art music is like a giant musical ocean that has existed for centuries tho

Quote from: James on July 24, 2011, 12:44:34 PM
That's fine - most people these days prefer the 'pop' music of today than to serious music...

Quote from: James on July 24, 2011, 03:46:41 PM
Art music includes the whole gamut tho

Quote from: James on July 27, 2011, 02:37:34 AM
all 'tags' are meaningless ..

Quote from: James on July 26, 2011, 07:43:56 PM
Erase the 'tags' and you can pit the musical results of all music against each other and compare it's qualities.

Quote from: Leon on July 27, 2011, 04:44:30 AM
If James had his way, you would enter a library and all the books would be piled up on tables in no apparent order.

Quote from: Grazioso on July 27, 2011, 05:00:04 AM
I'm amazed by the tortured mental contortionism going on here. Better than Cirque du Soleil  :o

No more "serious higher-minded/consciousness art music" for you, then  :)

Hmm, let's compare some qualities! Boulez=doesn't swing. Sonny Clark=swings! Sonny Clark wins!

Quote from: Grazioso on July 27, 2011, 05:04:15 AM
You're giving him undue credit for holding some sort of consistent, coherent philosophical stance. In reality, you would enter the library and find a pile labeled "James is under the impression this stuff is good" and then the rest of the library.

Quote from: jowcol on July 27, 2011, 05:13:18 AM
Not dusty old quotes!  How dare you!  You're almost as bad as Jowcol!

Quote from: jowcol on July 27, 2011, 05:17:55 AM
Although, I'd say that I'd doubt that any of us have a consistent, coherent philosophical stance, and our personal

Quote
And, I'd also say, I'd probably like a lot of the stuff that ends up in "James in under the impression this stuff is good" pile.

Quote from: James on July 27, 2011, 05:47:43 AM
Not really .. you can approach, listen-to and compare any music, the tags (and thats what they are) are not necessary in doing that.

Quote from: James on July 27, 2011, 05:47:43 AM
Not really .. you can approach, listen-to and compare any music, the tags (and thats what they are) are not necessary in doing that.

Quote
And the serious musicians themselves often hate them and pay no mind to them (as they do their thing), because they confine and pigeonhole what they do, and creates a stigma to the public out there that consumes music. It does more harm

Quote
than good. With music, from the inside-out it's best to approach it at a more base level, the rawer material, the nuts & bolts, the result, ..

Quote from: James on July 27, 2011, 06:21:26 AM
.. I love a lot of music (), but nothing really touches best higher consciousness music, it's the pinnacle human achievement of all things music.

Quote from: Leon on July 27, 2011, 06:47:39 AM
Yes those are two more great ones, but I couldn't list all of them -  ;) - I tried to put the ones I thought the best introduction.  He is quite unique among jazz musicians and deceptively complex with his playing and writing.

Quote from: James on July 27, 2011, 06:30:10 AM
Sure (and I agree with the last part esp.) .. but I honestly believe that you can discuss any music without the tags - and just jump to it's qualities on a basic level.

Quote from: Grazioso on July 27, 2011, 09:57:55 AM
But it's the commonality of qualities on a basic level (I assume you mean musical characteristics) that help give rise to the labels/categories. A characteristic trait of what we call Baroque music, for example, is the basso continuo. Swing feel is one part of what leads to the conceptual category of jazz. The danger is when someone takes those traits or definitions too rigidly and says that jazz must swing, or music isn't Baroque if there's no continuo, which would lead to silly situations. It's a question of family resemblances (a la Wittgenstein), not rigid dichotomies.

You regularly employ tags like "higher consciousness music" or "art music." Are you not contradicting your own admonition? And what are the basic musical qualities that define these categories?

Some potential problems with discussing music without labels and focusing solely on its musical qualities:

a) Most people don't have the musical knowledge/experience to perceive, analyze, and discuss (or judge) music on a nuts-and-bolts level. "Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen." Whereof one cannot speak, one must be silent.
b) To judge, you have to privilege certain elements or techniques; how do you decide? Plus, musical interpretation is just that: interpretation. For example, one person might analyze a chord progression one way, with someone else offering a different valid interpretation.

Quote from: jowcol on July 27, 2011, 10:05:13 AM
Pharaoh Sanders is so far out it is pretty horrifying-- he makes Trane's playing seem rather tame.  When he comes in, he simply unleashes a torrent of wild, tortured animal sounds and screams through his sax.

Quote from: James on July 27, 2011, 11:23:32 AM
Nah .. this is unnecessary and doesnt work, because we place restrictions on things, attach stigmas to things, neatly try to compartmentalize things ..  and anything that doesn't fit creates confusion. Where do we put it? etc. Not to mention the amount of effort put into this kind of thinking, it's a big waste of time. Musicians don't waste their time mulling over such bullshit. They simply create the music.

Quote from: jowcol on July 27, 2011, 10:05:13 AM
For some reason, I've been in need of Late Trane. 

For some reason, I really like what my be Coltrane's most reviled work-- OM.  Supposedly, he was dropping acid during the session, and "perceived the interrelationship of all life forms."  It starts with a chant from the Bagavhad Gita, and is pretty much a fluid free jam with totally off the hook solos and periods of texture that finally comes back to the orginal chant.  Pharaoh Sanders is so far out it is pretty horrifying-- he makes Trane's playing seem rather tame.  When he comes in, he simply unleashes a torrent of wild, tortured animal sounds and screams through his sax.

I originally hated this-- it was my second Trane album, and not what I expect. However, I got really sick with a 103 degree fever and the music kept playing in my head.  I'm not sure if I'd call it higher consciousness music-- it's more visceral and primeval to me, but I love it now.

Anyway, the following link covers the first half of the album.  The handoff from Trane's solo starts around 7:15, and the "Scream" comes about a minute later.
http://www.youtube.com/v/WyXFBohVmr8&page#t=438s


Probably the most accessible Late Trane came from the same time.  Kulu Se Mama used two african percussionists and a vocalists.  It's more lyrical-- although there is still some overblowing and craziness going on, but wrapped around a driving pulse.   This was also probably the best McCoy Tyner solo in the late works-- he left soon afterword, as there didn't seem to be much room for him in works like Ascension  or Meditations.  But the Kulu Se Mama has a solid piano solo if you like McCoy.  (And for me, the biggest reason I listen to Trane is to here the dialog between McCoy and Elvin-- it took me a while to start paying attention to Trane's solos.)   For some reason there doesn't seem to be a post on Youtube. Bummer.

Quote from: James on July 27, 2011, 11:23:32 AM
Nah .. this is unnecessary and doesnt work, because we place restrictions on things, attach stigmas to things, neatly try to compartmentalize things ..  and anything that doesn't fit creates confusion. Where do we put it? etc. Not to mention the amount of effort put into this kind of thinking, it's a big waste of time. Musicians don't waste their time mulling over such bullshit. They simply create the music.

Quote from: Grazioso on July 28, 2011, 04:59:38 AM
Cat's out of the bag: thinking is a waste of time--for certain people.

Quote from: jowcol on July 27, 2011, 12:52:44 PM
The key to subliminal programming is repetition.

Quote from: Mirror Image on July 27, 2011, 06:58:15 PM
Currently listening to this classic Horace Silver album:

Quote from: Mirror Image on July 27, 2011, 08:29:33 PM
Now listening:

[asin]B00005B58Y[/asin]

Not one of my favorite Miles albums. In fact, it's not even in my top 15 favorite Miles albums, but the title track Milestones is great.

Quote from: Mirror Image on July 27, 2011, 06:19:55 PM
I can't say I'm a big fan of Coltrane in general. He did some good albums in my view early on like with Ballads, Crescent, Coltrane, Blue Train, Coltrane's Sound, and some those Prestige albums like Lush Life and Black Pearls. I find his later recordings to be not my cup of tea. Jazz, for me, needs to swing, which is why I favor the late 40s, 50s, and early to mid 60s bebop, hard-bop, and cool jazz.

Give me Sonny Rollins, Stan Getz, Paul Desmond, Coleman Hawkins, Ben Webster, Hank Mobley, Richie Kamuca, Lee Konitz, Benny Golson, Harold Land, among others any day over Coltrane.

Quote from: Mirror Image on July 27, 2011, 08:29:33 PM
Now listening:

[asin]B00005B58Y[/asin]

Not one of my favorite Miles albums. In fact, it's not even in my top 15 favorite Miles albums, but the title track Milestones is great.

Quote from: Mirror Image on July 27, 2011, 08:35:33 PM
Now here's a Miles album I really have enjoyed through the years...

(http://i47.tinypic.com/awxrnl.jpg)

Quote from: James on July 28, 2011, 05:14:29 AM
Talk is cheap .. look at the musical results instead.

Quote from: Grazioso on July 28, 2011, 06:25:03 AM
The Inferno, or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Pfft

Midway upon the journey of our life
  I found myself within a music store dark,
  For the straightforward pathway had been lost.

While I was rushing headlong to the jazz section,
  Before mine eyes did one present himself,
  Who seemed from long-continued cliches hoarse.

When I beheld him among the soundtracks vast,
  "Have pity on me," unto him I cried,
  "Whiche'er thou art, shade or real man!"

He answered me: "Pfft! Whatever dood!
  No more narrow jazz or pastiche film music--
  Higher consciousness music for you, pal."
 
Thunderstruck, I heard the Great Call,
  The Pfft ringing forth in tones sublime,
  Proclaiming the wisdom of Ignorance.

To think no more and place cherished opinion
  Highest among all earthly things--
  At last I gots me an arts edumucation!

Quote from: Leon on July 28, 2011, 06:38:47 AM
Hard one.

Not considering boots:

For sure Nefertiti (this period, 1965-68 is my favorite so any of those records will do but the track Nefertiti is so great I must mention it),

Quote from: Leon on July 28, 2011, 05:53:11 AM

[asin]B0000006BU[/asin]

Quote from: Leon on July 28, 2011, 07:40:10 AM
Thinking of Mal Waldron, reminded me of Matthew Shipp, a pianist born in 1960 who makes some of the most creative new jazz today.

Quote from: James on July 28, 2011, 05:14:29 AM
Talk is cheap

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 28, 2011, 08:49:36 AM
This is feeling like . . . The Shed . . . .

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 28, 2011, 08:32:53 AM
QED

Quote from: Leon on July 28, 2011, 08:33:48 AM
Procrastinator is a great recording and you are right about those two cuts penned by Shorter, they are strong.  Morgan and Shorter worked well together going back to their days with Art Blakey.  Lee Moragn also did a lot with Joe Henderson, and those sides are also very good.

Quote from: Leon on July 28, 2011, 08:33:48 AM

As far Matthew Shipp - I like this one best:

[asin]B00004SGX8[/asin]

But his stuff is so varied, you can hear very different things from each of his CDs, you kind of have to pick an area that appeals to you and be careful with the others since it may not your thing.

8)

Quote from: Grazioso on July 28, 2011, 09:36:52 AM
Old Alfred Lion enjoyed an embarass de richesses during the early 60's, with top talent cross-polinating across the Blue Note releases: guys like Henderson, Morgan, Shorter, Blakey, Tyner, Hancock, Hutcherson, Green, Silver, Dorham, Hubbard, Gordon, et al. You can dip into just about any of the Blue Note RVG's and find something great.

Quote from: Mn Dave on July 28, 2011, 08:50:00 AM
How so?  :)

Quote from: Grazioso on July 28, 2011, 09:36:52 AM
According to recent scholarship, QED bears an ominous hidden meaning, for it is--so the theory goes--a cryptogram for the ancient Sumerian Pfft, uttered to ward off evil whenever a High Priest farted during a debauch celebrating the music god, Boulezu. Bedouin nomads apparently preserved the tradition, and an Arab scholar recorded it for posterity:

That is not dead which can eternal lie.
And with strange aeons even Pfft may die.

Supposedly a Roman mystery cult adopted it, but after a few unfortunate crucifixions for heresy, they had to change it to QED, meaning, in the vernacular, "James has shown us the Way." Yet the Goths were having none of that, preferring their narrow improvised music, played on bone flutes and hammered skulls...

See Jowcol. Heresies and Homilies: The Emergence of the Jamesian Sect. Oxford: Oxford UP, 2011.